Living offgrid with small solar system(s)

[George Harmony]

And that fish i will later prepare it with this indonesian invention with no electricity. I think they put soda+strips of cans (aluminium from drinking cans) then shake it then wait till gas forms.

Its a real working prototype showed at a fair. Do you think there is an explosion danger???

Air=water (indonesian)

Edited June 1, 2016 by George Harmony

[Crossy]

Sodium hydroxide + Water + Aluminium = Hydrogen.

At least it's less hazardous than HHO.

Is sodium hydroxide cheaper than cooking gas?

[George Harmony]

Sodium hydroxide + Water + Aluminium = Hydrogen.

At least it's less hazardous than HHO.

Is sodium hydroxide cheaper than cooking gas?

Per kg is it here 20.000idr = +/ 52 baht.

In the demonstration they put a lot more water in than soda. So, i think it is cheaper this way, im not sure. Try to find out more about this. Big Advantage (for me) is that you are then not dependent on gas and perhaps i will cancel my electric wok plan with pv and wait till i have enough power with future salt batteries.

[George Harmony]

And, besides of using capacitors to make rice or baking bradwurst you can use these also for (super)lighting in combination with "super joule ringer"

Ah, another Joule-thief (blocking oscillator) design. This one a really poor design not least because the entire load current is passing through the base-emitter junction of that poor 2N3055 (I never thought I'd feel sorry for a bipolar transistor). It only survives because it's an incredibly robust device (I_b max = 7A)

http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/2N3055-D.PDF

As noted earlier, Joule-thieves do work, but they cannot output more than they take in.

Joule thief or not "overunity" is till now never proven so ofcourse. But, with only adding saltwater and you always have brighter light 24hours if you want is joule thief very handy.

I also have seen examples of motor/dynamo running a bit bigger motor with or without capacitors and they claim to generate free electricity. But as some of you frequently said/asked: "can i find such generators in a shop?" ???

[Crossy]

Sorry George, are you suggesting that a Joule-thief is an over-unity device?

Have you actually SEEN a motor-generator making over-unity power?

Do you know what a capacitor (super or not) is?

[George Harmony]

I meant to say ofcourse joule thief is not overnuity. Sorry for my bad english.

[George Harmony]

Just want to inform that ive tried to contact many suppliers of magnesium saltwater batteries and this one is the only who answered.

Dear Mr.George,

Good afternoon.

Now let me send the catalogue of the portable magnesium fuel cell.

Also pls kindly check the working video of the fuel cell.

The FOB shanghai:390USD/set

Delivery time: 5 workdays

Any question,pls let me know.

Best regards

Here is his vid:

I shall order one as trial

Edited June 1, 2016 by George Harmony

[Muhendis]

George, this should interest you. It tells how the magnesium air battery works and also what it's good for.

How it works

Essentially, magnesium-air fuel cell technology has the same components as any other battery technology. There’s a magnesium anode and a gas-diffusion (air) cathode, with salt water as the electrolyte. “Simplistically, it’s what is technically called an oxidation-reduction reaction,” Hilliard stated. “All we’re doing is using the oxidation-reduction reaction that occurs between the magnesium and the water.”

Hilliard further explained that the air cathode “is the current collector” for the system. “The air cathode is a membrane that breathes, and allows oxygen from the air to enter the cell to facilitate the oxidation-reduction reaction,” he said.

Why magnesium?

Certainly, magnesium-air fuel cells have a number of advantages. Hilliard noted that MagPower’s battery has a higher energy density than other systems, meaning more electricity for less weight. The battery also produces no toxic by-products, unlike its lead and lithium counterparts.

Hilliard added that there’s no self degradation for magnesium-air fuel cells, making them the perfect candidate for disaster-preparedness products. “It’s got an indefinite shelf life,” he said. “If you put a normal battery on a shelf in a flashlight and you come back to it two years later, the battery will have corroded, and the flashlight will not work. Our system can sit on the shelf for years, and if you take it down and pour salt water in it, it will turn on.”

Still, Hilliard admitted that there are some drawbacks for magnesium-air fuel cells compared to other types of batteries. While MagPower’s batteries have high energy density, lead-acid batteries have a higher power density.

“[That’s] why we use them to start our cars,” he explained. “Our battery works best in low-amperage environments. So it’s not good at moving things, but it’s very good at recharging systems, and it’s very good at lighting systems.”

The preceding article is based on information from Magpower. There are many different chemistries used in batteries that are capable of producing a reasonable and useful amount of electricity. The holy grail is to find the one which has the highest power density, can be charged in a few minutes, can be disposed of in an environmentally acceptable way, has an infinitely long shelf life and costs pennies. There are many solutions to this "perfect" battery design and millions of different metallic and chemical combinations to choose from. There is work in the direction of graphene going on. There is an organisation working to increase power density using nano technology. All of this is powered by the automotive industry. Home power will benefit from this, and in a big way, but this driving force is mass transit of automobiles and the cost of fuel. Hopefully the right combination will be discovered tomorrow.

George. Your inquisitiveness is inspirational but please use your money carefully.

[George Harmony]

Thanks @muhendis. Ive already read this before.

Im will try to make myself with this anode which i can buy here for about 2.5 usd per piece. If i understood well it can last 9 month if the use is 24hours each day.

My question is, how can above battery produce 600wh 12v per magnesium anode??? While a small anode like this produce 1.2volt 100mah and i have to use 8 to reach around 12v

Including above package of shanghai are 10 anodes, shape is like a plate. Does this mean that the bigger the anode the higher the voltage and current??

[Crossy]

The ten anodes are one set, the commercial unit has 10 cells @ 1.2V = 12V

The larger the surface area (generally) the larger the available current.

[George Harmony]

....

The larger the surface area (generally) the larger the available current.

Ok. Thats what i want to know. But, the anode of the commercial version consists of ONE plate...??? I'll post a pict later. They give thus 10 extra and duration of 1 anode is 600wh. (40extra now)

While typing this i recieved an email again:

And pls refer to following info about the standard Packing list:

1. 60W portable fuel cell ----(1 set);

2.50A.h magenesium alloy anode ----(40 pcs);

3.Multi-function portable bag ----(1 pcs);

4.12V output line(1 pcs);

5.DC12V--AC220V multi-function inverter ----(1 set);

6.Folded bottle (for water filling) ----(1 pcs);

7.Standard NaCl ----(5 bags);

8.User's manual ----(1 pcs);

9.5W DC LED light ----(1 pcs).

Waiting for your futher negotiation.

Best regards

Do they only have 1 (big)cell???? Edited June 2, 2016 by George Harmony

[George Harmony]

One anode = 50ah....not 10anodes.

Thats why im wondering how is it possible...???

[George Harmony]

@crossy,

You are AGAIN right and i misunderstood and thats why i was wondering how is t possible.

Dear George,

Thanks for your reply soon.

One set of fuel cell works with 10pcs of anodes together.

So the 10pcs of anode will be 50A.h.

[George Harmony]

I have to learn a lot so i ordered a toy which worldwide also being used for educational purpose. This toy i just received. A car powered by saltwater/magnesium. So tonight or tomorrow i can learn about the magic of saltwater.

Edited June 2, 2016 by George Harmony

[George Harmony]

Hope you not get bored of my updates. After jne brought that saltwater toy the chinese micro hydrogenerator came with another express service. I will enjoy my weekend with learning and practising

[Crossy]

ONE anode is indeed 50Ah but at 1.2V. This is 60 Watt hours.

TEN anodes is 50Ah @ 12V. This is 600 Watt hours.

Ah has no meaning without a voltage.

[KonaRain]

Solar panels are taking over the world..

bbc.. 1.47 gigawatts with wind and solar and hydro..

[KonaRain]

Cool H3 saltwater. .

[George Harmony]

We all know that a peltier can generate electricity. There is heat and cold side.

This guy's claims an invention of crystal graphite battery with constant voltage of about 1.5v and when there is a little bit heat, from your hand for example,the voltage rises.

Many others experiment with crystal batteries which seems to give voltage for years without charging.

Perhaps soon a crystal battery will be available with bigger capacity, who knows???

Edited June 3, 2016 by George Harmony

[Muhendis]

We all know that a peltier can generate electricity. There is heat and cold side.

This guy's claims an invention of crystal graphite battery with constant voltage of about 1.5v and when there is a little bit heat, from your hand for example,the voltage rises.

Many others experiment with crystal batteries which seems to give voltage for years without charging.

Perhaps soon a crystal battery will be available with bigger capacity, who knows???

I'm not going to comment on this so called invention other than to say that the voltage rise observed due to heat is nothing spectacular at all. It is a fundamental characteristic of a PN semiconductor junction and many thousands of dollars have been spent trying to reduce it in op-amps where it is undesirable. It is also undesirable in solar panels but it is put to good use in semiconductor temperature sensors. What I'm trying to say is that if this "inventor" considers it to be such a big deal then he is either trying to fool you with BS or he doesn't know what he's talking about. Either way he has raised my scepticism.

[Jing Joe]

The Joule-thief works

Takes low voltage supply (AA cell, salt water battery) and converts to higher voltage to run an LED.

But it still does not output more energy than is put in.

Power Out (V x A) is ALWAYS less than Power In (V x A).

I'm sure a couple of torches of mine have something similar inbuilt. Just one cell at 1.5v.

And just like your basic efficiency formula above, there is some heat generated in the torches and not from the LED.

[George Harmony]

@muhendis,

A lot of crab on internet and also lot of immitators. Im also a immitator cause i just made my own aluminium carbon battery and im running now a very small dc motor already for 2-3 hours. I still had a reserve carbon active water filter. Aluminium foil i always have in my kitchen.

How about if i make small tubes in a plastic box where users can put in c.q. refill with:

Tissue,

carbon active,

aluminium foil and

saltwater and then

a lamp is burning.

I think this is an effective way to help a village house and if i can generate enough voltage and amps ofcourse also for my own use

[George Harmony]

This is all you need.

Next step i will try is to make my own carbon active plates and hope then to generate more amps.

[George Harmony]

@jingjoe,

How about such a setup which i got from somewhere on internet.

But thenj powered by carbon+saltwater?

Edited June 3, 2016 by George Harmony

[Muhendis]

A word about these so called joule thief circuits. As Crossy has said you can't get out more than you put in (Thee casn't get awt fer nowt). The trick is to switch a high voltage/current device on and off with a mark space ratio of (say) 1:10. The average power used is very low but the on time power is high enough to make things work. Now. Let us say that the "on" time is 1mS and the off time is 10mS and that this is repeated cyclically. The electronics can react to this time scale well enough but the human eye cannot. So, in the case of an LED lamp, what we perceive is a continuous bright light and our test meter tells us that the current consumption is quite low. In The case if the crap circuit of Georges that he got somewhere on the internet, The high voltage spikes generated by the transformer may be enough to cause the fluorescent lamp to start. Once again we are looking at the time domain of the power cycle so the lamp might keep starting every cycle and will remain on for as long as the voltage of that cycle is high enough. My personal comment on the circuit is that I seem to recall seeing it before. About 50 years ago..............

[George Harmony]

About diy salt water battery. Ive yesterday and this morning made some setups and works (very)good.

Soon i will try to immitate this setup and this guy claims such voltage and amp. Now about the costs.

Lets say i can make 6-7 amps 12volt. A vlra 7ah battery is then much more expensive and you need to charge it also with solar panel or otherwise. A setup with saltwater you can clean it and put again saltwater. When the carbon anode has been "eaten up" just replace it, costs = very very small.

So whats wisdom?? Salt water setup you can run it day and night. Combination of solar + saltwater power is perhaps ideal. For example for some lighting saltwater and heavier stuff solar.

[George Harmony]

Here is another commercial version of a wetcell 40ah 12v battery.

The Enviro-Gen® generates its own electricity once the seawater is added and a load is placed on the unit. That's right, if there's nothing plugged in and operating, there is no voltage produced and no depletion, so this isn't a 'one-time shot'. You can use the Enviro-Gen for several hours, then dump out the water and rinse the anodes in fresh water and put it back on the shelf. Oh, the Enviro-Gen also has an indefinite shelf life and, unlike batteries, is unaffected by hot weather or engine room conditions.

129,95 usd

I think a handy diy-er can make the anodes himself cause the anodes have to be replaced after using all ah. An experienced diy-er is perhaps able to make such a battery himself.

http://dragonet.com/fhp/

[Jing Joe]

A word about these so called joule thief circuits. As Crossy has said you can't get out more than you put in (Thee casn't get awt fer nowt). The trick is to switch a high voltage/current device on and off with a mark space ratio of (say) 1:10. The average power used is very low but the on time power is high enough to make things work. Now. Let us say that the "on" time is 1mS and the off time is 10mS and that this is repeated cyclically. The electronics can react to this time scale well enough but the human eye cannot. So, in the case of an LED lamp, what we perceive is a continuous bright light and our test meter tells us that the current consumption is quite low. In The case if the crap circuit of Georges that he got somewhere on the internet, The high voltage spikes generated by the transformer may be enough to cause the fluorescent lamp to start. Once again we are looking at the time domain of the power cycle so the lamp might keep starting every cycle and will remain on for as long as the voltage of that cycle is high enough. My personal comment on the circuit is that I seem to recall seeing it before. About 50 years ago..............

Yes M this circuit might very well have been the topic of this forum 50 years ago but now, as has been raised; LEDs are the reason why some old and simple battery designs can be revisited. Especially for village life as is George's wonderful passion.

It's a case of NOT QUITE "everything old is new again" because compact flouro lights were great, way back.

So George; keep your focus on LEDs till something better comes along.

Reckon the principle of the "joule thief" was the sole reason history was revisited.

P.S. Reading your note again M re the M/S ratio reminded me of my discovery of the dimming circuitry in one or two of the 30 LED torches I have.

The lesser brightness is as hoped not simply resistive dimming but a M/S ratio of about 0.6 to 1 as accidentally discovered noticing a small stream of water in stroboscopic action of an interrupted pattern. Any more would too much information.

More easily seen but different; was not quite looking directly into the beam whilst oscillating it rather like a windscreen wiper motion. The M/S ratio was more discernible.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Jing Joe

[Jing Joe]

Here is another commercial version of a wetcell 40ah 12v battery.

The Enviro-Gen® generates its own electricity once the seawater is added and a load is placed on the unit. That's right, if there's nothing plugged in and operating, there is no voltage produced and no depletion, so this isn't a 'one-time shot'. You can use the Enviro-Gen for several hours, then dump out the water and rinse the anodes in fresh water and put it back on the shelf. Oh, the Enviro-Gen also has an indefinite shelf life and, unlike batteries, is unaffected by hot weather or engine room conditions.

129,95 usd

I think a handy diy-er can make the anodes himself cause the anodes have to be replaced after using all ah. An experienced diy-er is perhaps able to make such a battery himself.

http://dragonet.com/fhp/

George This may not be the carbon you need, but I thought of the carbon rod anode in older dry cell batteries. Then i remembered the carbon rods for old movie projectors, and aircraft search lights and then the rods that were not that long ago available for a heating/arc torch from the hardware store. They were connected to the home arc welder and mounted "V" shaped in a holder to produce fantastic heat to metal.

[George Harmony]

@jingjoe,

I bought that little toy saltwater car and included is a small piece of carbon active, shape is like a nail of you middle finger which you put in the car.

For diy who can buy cabron chuckles cheap this is a way to make effective carbon anodes. Just use mesh or what they here put in windows agains moskitos.

Bind the carbon, heat it up a little bit and press it or press with a little bit heat. The shape its up to you. Put membrane of for example polypropylane or kitchen tissue and you have your battery.

According to some people if you put on top of the carbon a copper plate you can get more current.

Very effective way to make an aluminium air batteries and if you have all the tools you can make these in a couple of minutes.

Put it in a compact plastic box and poor in saltwater

If you dont use it, take it out and clean it. Ready to use for the next load

Edited June 5, 2016 by George Harmony