Haze starts to cover Phayao despite 60-day burning ban

[Bardeh]

Has anyone noticed how much better the air is today?

Yes, it's much better. I hope it lasts, but I don't think it will

[villagefarang]

Has anyone noticed how much better the air is today?

Yes, it's much better. I hope it lasts, but I don't think it will

Just returned home from a trip to town and there has been a marked decline in air quality since this morning.

[geriatrickid]

And the right action for the zero assets, subsistence farmers is?

What exactly do you mean? How many of the arsonists are these poor deprived people? I offer that it is not as many as the NGOs and political opportunists would have us believe. Chiang Rai has been receiving large infusions of cash from the central government for quite some time. Compared to the poorer regions of Thailand, Chiang Rai is awash with money. I was visiting the facilities at CRRU and was blown away by the vast expanse of a campus and the assets. Western universities would kill to have what they have. The government has invested heavily in this region.

If you want to see subsistence farmers have a look at Surin or Ubon or Udon or Roi Et or Yala or Pattani etc. Yes, there are some poor farmers, but they aren't in the numbers one sees elsewhere in Thailand.

[vivid]

Mucccchhh better today.

Visible pic

Yesterday

[vivid]

Seems like Myanmar areas like Lashio are still not yet done. May take a day or 2 to re-group. Lets see how it pans out....

[canuckamuck]

And the right action for the zero assets, subsistence farmers is?

What exactly do you mean? How many of the arsonists are these poor deprived people? I offer that it is not as many as the NGOs and political opportunists would have us believe. Chiang Rai has been receiving large infusions of cash from the central government for quite some time. Compared to the poorer regions of Thailand, Chiang Rai is awash with money. I was visiting the facilities at CRRU and was blown away by the vast expanse of a campus and the assets. Western universities would kill to have what they have. The government has invested heavily in this region.

If you want to see subsistence farmers have a look at Surin or Ubon or Udon or Roi Et or Yala or Pattani etc. Yes, there are some poor farmers, but they aren't in the numbers one sees elsewhere in Thailand.

I would say everyone that has land to farm in the mountains is among the arsonist group,your term not mine. So from the very poor and up are included. The rich landowners get someone else to do their burning of course.

I live in a village with several homes with grass roofs and bamboo walls. There are many similar villages in the area, some without electricity.

I will be happy to explain to them that you have discovered that they are awash with cash and no longer need to farm the old way.

Problem solved. Cheers.

[harrry]

I think the historical reference would be let them eat cake.

No village farang. I would rather use some of the money spent by ngos and government in helping them to continue doing what they are doing to looking at resettling and finding adequate alternative income which does not involve raoing the environment.

of course this can be done keeping existing village links but we cannot continue like now...with it acually increasing each year as tthe need for higher incomes forces them to take even more land than before.

[geriatrickid]

I would say everyone that has land to farm in the mountains is among the arsonist group,your term not mine. So from the very poor and up are included. The rich landowners get someone else to do their burning of course.

I live in a village with several homes with grass roofs and bamboo walls. There are many similar villages in the area, some without electricity.

I will be happy to explain to them that you have discovered that they are awash with cash and no longer need to farm the old way.

Problem solved. Cheers.

Just came back from the monthly food fair in Chiang Rai city. I have never seen such an event before in Thailand. Streets filled with food stalls that stretch kms in multiple directions. Tens of thousands of people who were spending. It's a sight one doesn't see in the impoverished regions of Thailand. Chiang Rai and its residents is a region of "haves". If there is poverty then it is not widespread like one sees in Issan.

Air quality in the city today was much better today than yesterday, which was better than the day before. Still can't see the mountains though.

BTW, if some villages don't have electricity, have you considered that the villages may be in zones where they shouldn't be? PEA has brought the electrical grid into the remotest regions of Thailand and has done a pretty good job of it. It won't bring in electricity to areas that are encroached or that are deemed dangerous. Some places are intentionally left off the grid. It's not unusual. You won't see electrification in much of Canada's protected national lands, nor in the USA, nor in Australia.

[canuckamuck]

I would say everyone that has land to farm in the mountains is among the arsonist group,your term not mine. So from the very poor and up are included. The rich landowners get someone else to do their burning of course.

I live in a village with several homes with grass roofs and bamboo walls. There are many similar villages in the area, some without electricity.

I will be happy to explain to them that you have discovered that they are awash with cash and no longer need to farm the old way.

Problem solved. Cheers.

Just came back from the monthly food fair in Chiang Rai city. I have never seen such an event before in Thailand. Streets filled with food stalls that stretch kms in multiple directions. Tens of thousands of people who were spending. It's a sight one doesn't see in the impoverished regions of Thailand. Chiang Rai and its residents is a region of "haves". If there is poverty then it is not widespread like one sees in Issan.

Air quality in the city today was much better today than yesterday, which was better than the day before. Still can't see the mountains though.

BTW, if some villages don't have electricity, have you considered that the villages may be in zones where they shouldn't be? PEA has brought the electrical grid into the remotest regions of Thailand and has done a pretty good job of it. It won't bring in electricity to areas that are encroached or that are deemed dangerous. Some places are intentionally left off the grid. It's not unusual. You won't see electrification in much of Canada's protected national lands, nor in the USA, nor in Australia.

You are aware that Chiang Rai city is not representative of the whole province right? Do you not see displays of wealth in Khon Khen city?

Anyhow, you deflect. There are poor people here and they are burning up the hillsides, just like the people with money do. I can assure you no one is getting rich growing corn. That is reserved for the middlemen and the final sellers - the people in the city. And farmers aren't going to learn a new way to grow corn on their own. The government horticulturists need to find a way to get people to change.

My wife and I refuse to grow corn, our hope is to have some success with alternative crops so people can see there is another way to go. Certainly keeping your overgrowth in check throughout the year eliminates the need to burn before planting. But that is a lot of work with brushcutters, or herbicides, which we are also trying eliminate. Since the profit margin of corn is minimal, it perhaps isn't cost effective to do it that way.

Also I have noticed that doing things right here does not mean the same as it does back home. Doing it right back home means using the most logical materials and methods to attain optimum long term results. Over here doing it right means achieving a minimum standard using the least amount of effort, time, and money. It is very difficult to break this mindset.

[VincentRJ]

And the right action for the zero assets, subsistence farmers is?

How many of the arsonists are these poor deprived people?

Geriatrickid,

Your use of the word 'arsonist' shows that you don't understand the situation. Check the meaning of the word in the dictionary. Arson is the burning of property with a malicious intent to cause harm.

Farmers do not slash and burn with an intention to cause harm. The health hazard from the resulting smoke is an unfortunate by-product, which the farmers themselves are even more exposed to than city dwellers who live some distance away.

Slash and burn is a world-wide problem. I've seen estimates of 300 million or so farmers, world-wide, who practice 'slash and burn'. It's a practice which is probably as old as farming itself.

Whilst there are a number of disadvantages and harmful by-products, there are also advantages to the 'slash & burn' system, otherwise the practice wouldn't continue.

The advantages, as I understand them, are as follows:

(1) The residual wood ash acts as a fertilizer.

(2) Weed and tree competition with any crop that is planted is reduced.

(3) The burning creates the space to plant crops and to walk.

(4) The burning reduces the occurrence of pests and diseases.

(5) The burning improves the soil structure which enables the faster establishment of seedlings.

Because of these advantages, simply banning slash & burn will not work by itself. However, if alternative methods of farming are provided, which actually improve the living standards of the farmers (or farm workers) who slash & burn, then banning the slash & burn practice, with appropriate penalties, should be effective.

Who in their right mind would want to continue a practice which earned them less money than an alternative practice which was readily available?

[geriatrickid]

Oh please, not more exaggeration. The population of CR is what? 1.2 million right? How many of these people are the poor farmers you reference? A few hundred? A few thousand? Sorry, but that is an insignificant number when one takes a frank and honest look at the state of farming in Thailand.

Yes there is poverty. I am aware of it. I have seen it but it isn't significant when compared to Thailand as a whole. Quit with the promotion of the poor Chiang Rai and Hills Tribe farmers myth. They exist, but not to the extent they are promoted by charities with a vested interest. This region receives hundreds of millions of baht in direct subsidies, support and foreign aid every year. I haven't seen the extent of NGO facilities and ground support anywhere else in Thailand. This is not a neglected region and as I have repeatedly pointed out, GDP and GPP is higher in the province than in other regions who receive a fraction of the support Chiang Rai receives and who do not commit arson in the same manner and extent. What we have is a small number of arsonists making life miserable for everyone else.

Air quality took a turn for the worse this morning. Looking forward to my new filter mask .

[canuckamuck]

Oh please, not more exaggeration. The population of CR is what? 1.2 million right? How many of these people are the poor farmers you reference? A few hundred? A few thousand? Sorry, but that is an insignificant number when one takes a frank and honest look at the state of farming in Thailand.

Yes there is poverty. I am aware of it. I have seen it but it isn't significant when compared to Thailand as a whole. Quit with the promotion of the poor Chiang Rai and Hills Tribe farmers myth. They exist, but not to the extent they are promoted by charities with a vested interest. This region receives hundreds of millions of baht in direct subsidies, support and foreign aid every year. I haven't seen the extent of NGO facilities and ground support anywhere else in Thailand. This is not a neglected region and as I have repeatedly pointed out, GDP and GPP is higher in the province than in other regions who receive a fraction of the support Chiang Rai receives and who do not commit arson in the same manner and extent. What we have is a small number of arsonists making life miserable for everyone else.

Air quality took a turn for the worse this morning. Looking forward to my new filter mask .

I don't think I am making a case that Chiang Rai is more poor than any other region. But I do believe that the people who farm the hillsides are generally poor, because it's crap land and nearly impossible to make any money on it. And it is the hillside fires that make the most smoke. So poverty and the burning are closely connected. And Chiang Rai has a high percentage off hillside farming area.

You tell me of all the foreign aid and charity that is dispersed in Chiang Rai. How exactly do you see that changing the way people grow corn. I know we got a free water tank last year from World Vision and the year before we got a couple of blankets. No one has figured out how to use those in the cornfield yet. Our village is out of drinking water and we need a well. Where's the foreign aid for that. We have to raise the money and the water will be metered and charged, if we ever get the money together for that. And I will tell you our village is actually well off by the average. If there is ton's of money being lavished on our community. None of us have seen it, other than the new vehicles that all the governmental people seem to have.

If you really think that hillside farmers being poor is a myth you really ought to spend a few nights with some of our neighbours. It may not be poor enough to get celebrities to write song and make a video, but they aren't putting anything in the bank either.

[villagefarang]

I am not sure it is possible to reconcile the divergent views of this difficult problem when one side is determined to vilify and dehumanize vulnerable members of society. To dehumanize people you don’t like by assigning emotion filled labels and then recommending their extermination, I find disgusting. Sadly it is not an uncommon reaction in this modern age of extremist views.

[Fabricus]

I certainly am not advocating widescale slaughter of the arsonists. However, a couple people in each of the worst areas arrested and charged would be nice. Shooting a few of the arsonists as they set fires would put an end to the crisis quickly .IMO, they burn because they know they can get away with it, and the local powers don't do anything because some of them are implicated in the burning.

I sometimes think the same logic could be applied to this forum.

We'd only need to shoot one or two TV members to see a dramatic improvement in standards.

I'm not sure which members ought to be shot, but for some reason the name geriatrickid comes to mind.

Can't think why!

===

On a serious note, if at any time during your stay here in Thailand you feel the urge to start killing the locals .... pack your bags and go home.

And when you get back to your country, make an urgent appointment to see a mental health professional.

[Fabricus]

Drove to the NE a couple of days ago....For miles and miles the fields were ablaze.......

I hope you remembered to take your machine gun.

"Shoot the bastards", as Mr Geriatrickid might say!

[SoilSpoil]

I certainly am not advocating widescale slaughter of the arsonists. However, a couple people in each of the worst areas arrested and charged would be nice. Shooting a few of the arsonists as they set fires would put an end to the crisis quickly .IMO, they burn because they know they can get away with it, and the local powers don't do anything because some of them are implicated in the burning.

I sometimes think the same logic could be applied to this forum.

We'd only need to shoot one or two TV members to see a dramatic improvement in standards.

I'm not sure which members ought to be shot, but for some reason the name geriatrickid comes to mind.

Can't think why!

===

On a serious note, if at any time during your stay here in Thailand you feel the urge to start killing the locals .... pack your bags and go home.

And when you get back to your country, make an urgent appointment to see a mental health professional.

While I don't advocate shooting people, I can do the math. Millions of people's life expectancies are lowered by several years by the hands of greedy and criminal farmers. Lung infections in little kids and elderly is not on the minds of the morons who light the fires without considerations. So put them in prison or fine them into bankruptcy.

Good riddance, go work in Bangkok as there's plenty of work and let the hills and lands be covered with trees again.

Enough is enough. This has nothing to do with traditional slash and burning, the clearing and burning are on industrial scale. Why are you so ignorant?

[SoilSpoil]

I am not sure it is possible to reconcile the divergent views of this difficult problem when one side is determined to vilify and dehumanize vulnerable members of society. To dehumanize people you dont like by assigning emotion filled labels and then recommending their extermination, I find disgusting. Sadly it is not an uncommon reaction in this modern age of extremist views.

Seeing children (or anyone) in hospitals with lung infections and other smoke related problems, created out of pure ignorance and greed, is what disgusts me.

[vivid]

The smoke seems to be over myanmar. Just hope that it does not blow to N Thailand, slowly. Really at the mercy of the winds. You can see Mae Hon Song area in the pic, it looks visibly more smokey than CM or CR....spiked to PM10 300 ug/m3 over there for today.

[vivid]

The wind is really helping you guys out.

[VincentRJ]

Now here's am interesting question. Which is worse for the health, the smog in the Chiang Rai area during the 'slash & burn' period, or the smog in Beijing which is bad throughout the whole year, but particularly bad from October to February?

Can anyone answer?

[harrry]

Now here's am interesting question. Which is worse for the health, the smog in the Chiang Rai area during the 'slash & burn' period, or the smog in Beijing which is bad throughout the whole year, but particularly bad from October to February?

Can anyone answer?

I do not think that is the question. Both are bad.

I think it is probably easiestt to do something abou the Chiang Rai burning. It would be nice if China could do what it did during the olympics all the time but that would cost a lot more money.

To make up for the lost income (if any) in Thailand would not cost a lot but people do not want to change. Carrots are fine........(but not on burned fields) but sticks are needed.

[VincentRJ]

Now here's am interesting question. Which is worse for the health, the smog in the Chiang Rai area during the 'slash & burn' period, or the smog in Beijing which is bad throughout the whole year, but particularly bad from October to February?

Can anyone answer?

I do not think that is the question. Both are bad.

I think it is probably easiestt to do something abou the Chiang Rai burning. It would be nice if China could do what it did during the olympics all the time but that would cost a lot more money.

To make up for the lost income (if any) in Thailand would not cost a lot but people do not want to change. Carrots are fine........(but not on burned fields) but sticks are needed.

I'm not claiming it is the question, but merely an interesting question which might tend to get things into perspective.

Both situations have similarities, but also differences.

The situations are similar in the sense that underprivileged and poor people are (or at least were) trying to make the best of the situation and exploit the available opportunities in order to raise their living standards, but with the unanticipated and unintended negative effects of pollution.

During the past few decades, China has specialised in providing the cheapest power using the cheapest and dirtiest coal-fired power stations, as well as cheap labour, in order to attract foreign manufacturing companies to set up their operations in China, to produce lots of cheap goods for export.

The result has been a most spectacular and rapid economic development.

However, the results of 'slash & burn' has not resulted in such spectacular economic development. The practice appears to be merely to maintain living standards, at least for small-scale farmers, although there have been comments in this thread suggesting that the burn-off is now being practiced by larger agricultural corporations.

[vivid]

China Beijing has a much higher annual PM2.5 value than Chiang Rai, Chiang Mai or whatever cities in Thailand. Their peaks are also pretty high. Beijing had PM2.5 of 990 ug/m3 i believe (1hr), Shenyang in NE China Liaoning province experienced 1400+ ug/m3 PM2.5 1hr value this year.

Dust storms kick up even higher. PM2.5 of 2000+ ug/m3. PM10 of > 10000 ug/m3 in Kashi, Xinjiang province (near Kazakstan)

Since there is interest in China, i shall share this super detailed super long video.

[vivid]

Indonesia had it worse last year. 3334 ug/m3 PM10 1-hr peaks. 1000-2000 plus ug/m3 PM10 for many weeks. Total haze duration about 3 months.

[wolfmuc]

vivid

and others,

thank you for your work and for your time.

I think it's no time for jokes.

W. - Phrae

[VincentRJ]

China Beijing has a much higher annual PM2.5 value than Chiang Rai, Chiang Mai or whatever cities in Thailand. Their peaks are also pretty high. Beijing had PM2.5 of 990 ug/m3 i believe (1hr), Shenyang in NE China Liaoning province experienced 1400+ ug/m3 PM2.5 1hr value this year.

Dust storms kick up even higher. PM2.5 of 2000+ ug/m3. PM10 of > 10000 ug/m3 in Kashi, Xinjiang province (near Kazakstan)

Since there is interest in China, i shall share this super detailed super long video.

Thanks for the link to the video, Vivid. It's very informative, but also very alarming. Those who live in northern Thailand might feel relatively lucky after watching that video.

[Randell]

Great documentary long and in Chinese but captioned in English. The Journalist really did her job and them some. Thanks for posting

[vivid]

It's back boys!!

[villagefarang]

It's back boys!!

Yes, it is.

[vivid]

Chiang Rai getting serious again. Shd be hitting 300ug/m3 today.