Under The Current Climate Would You Buy A Condo?

[teejay]

good balanced post pkrv.

you see the same picture as i am seeing - the big one.

problem is that here on TV, many don't. you're seem to be a level-headed intelligent gent, if i were you i'd leave it at that last post.... arguing with the disillusioned ( *cough*think_too_mut*cough) or the unintelligent (renter's mathematics geniuses) is like.... well, pointless.... and just tiring.

[calibanjr.]

[

Calibanjr – A loss or a gain of 1M THB on a property = the cost of a reasonable car in the UK – we should keep this in perspective. It’s not relevant.

My post was in response to a specific statement about an offer on a property being so advantageous as to be "impossible to make a loss" which I thought needed a bit of realism as a concept in its entirety, regardless of scale. Now a 1M THB loss may or not be relevant to a LARGE outlay project, to SOME people, let's just call it being irrelevant to you a bit subjective on your part (and congratulations on that, I'm jealous), but not germane to my larger point; that being, simply put, there's never a situation "impossible to make a loss", sort of like, "there's no free lunch". Just add "especially when you're a stranger in a strange land". Good luck on your condo, really. I assume you've done your homework. Although I disagree mildly (I can't call myself a pessimist, just an agnostic about Thailand's future) with your view of the property market, it's more just a guesstimate on my part from my own view of people's experience here. I don't really see either catastrophe or nirvana on the horizon.

Edited June 17, 2007 by calibanjr.

[phetpailin]

If you look at the news from the US every major news outlet has checked in with the fall in the real estate market. Some areas are in the teens some are in the mid 30's. A friend of mine who just visited told me that his two condos in Florida have lost about 22% in just the past few months. The point that I tried to make is that the issue of real estate values going up and down is not unique to Thailand.

My other point is that I bought my home because I loved it. I like waking up here everyday. I don't care if it goes up or down in value because I didn't buy it as an investment. I bought it because I like it.

My other point is life is full of risks no matter where you live. I choose to live balancing the risks with the benefits of a stimulating, challanging life. I don't understand why anyone would come here to Thailand and then constantly complain about living here. If I did not enjoy it as much as I do I would go back to where I came from.

BTW if the crap hits the fan and the doomsday predictors are correct about farangs being rounded up and sent home what makes you think that owning a condo in your name is going to help you?

finally, I will say again. some of you people need to get a life beyond staring at a computer screen and quoting statistics.

As a Thai and i still buy propertiesto invest in Thailand and my small porfolio goes up in price. And to buy as investment you need to know when it is time to sell and do not be too greedy and too positive. I think that can help you anywhere you invest in the world.

[merlion]

Think_too_mut – from your comments you seem very disillusioned with Thailand, yes there are soi dogs, no there are generally not sculptures of lions (I guess you do not mean lion dogs) at the gates, this is a feature of Europe, why are you in Thailand when what you seek is more of a European lifestyle? To be honest if I did not like somewhere I would move on, please be honest are you now ‘stuck’ in Thailand, are there any alternatives for you?

What <deleted> are you to address your drivel at several posters? You m/f are telling me to leave?

For not agreeing to former boiler room criminals who somehow escaped deportations and landed in real estate and pump it up an up?

Get lost.

Vulgarities are not welcome in this forum. Postings such as these just goes to show your uncouth character. And you did not answer Pkrv's question, are you stuck here?

[teejay]

i'll answer your question, merlion about think_too_mut: yes, he's stuck here, and living rather poorly, and disillusioned, and pretty much clueless and drivel-mouthed. Just by his reaction to pkrv's post alone shows his character and class level....

stuck in thailand on the poor end of things huh think_too_mut? Did't you wash my windows today, and didn't i give you 10 baht for it? Now don't complain... trickle-down economy doesn't trickle down to that low of a level, hence his attitude.

[obsession]

What <deleted> are you to address your drivel at several posters?

Agreed. He didnt even make sense. Yes there were bombs in London and if there are a lot more it will affect prices and tourism. Same same thailand. I dont think theres any chance of a military coup or ethnic cleansing though. Try to talk sense please.

I cant understand how some of them think people are crazy for not thinking Thailand is good to invest in at present. I think their love of los blinds them to it. If you write down all the for and against reasons for investing in los, I think the against are 10 to 1 at present. Even in the past expats usually left most of their funds outside of los. More reason to now.

[pkrv]

[

Calibanjr – A loss or a gain of 1M THB on a property = the cost of a reasonable car in the UK – we should keep this in perspective. It's not relevant.

My post was in response to a specific statement about an offer on a property being so advantageous as to be "impossible to make a loss" which I thought needed a bit of realism as a concept in its entirety, regardless of scale. Now a 1M THB loss may or not be relevant to a LARGE outlay project, to SOME people, let's just call it being irrelevant to you a bit subjective on your part (and congratulations on that, I'm jealous), but not germane to my larger point; that being, simply put, there's never a situation "impossible to make a loss", sort of like, "there's no free lunch". Just add "especially when you're a stranger in a strange land". Good luck on your condo, really. I assume you've done your homework. Although I disagree mildly (I can't call myself a pessimist, just an agnostic about Thailand's future) with your view of the property market, it's more just a guesstimate on my part from my own view of people's experience here. I don't really see either catastrophe or nirvana on the horizon.

Calibanjr - In a sense we are in agreement - My comment was not however entirely subjective. I don't actually know what the minimum requirements are for a retirement visa, but understand that they are enforced, and are not overly arduous. However if 1M THB is significant, to use a few nautical expressions - people will be cutting it close to the wind and may not have fully battened down the hatches, so will not be prepared for the long haul....

teejay - I fully see your point... another expression that comes to mind; violence is the last act of the incompetent.

Edited June 18, 2007 by pkrv

[palm]

With all the "problems" thailand is having just now, it should be a buyers market. Its only because farangs leave their brains at the airport and also that people keep comparing it to other major cities etc , that los property prices arent in freefall. Next theyll be investing in Darfur.

Yet more smoke and mirrors. None of you whingers talk any common sense at all.

>>With all the "problems" thailand is having just now, it should be a buyers market.

I'm sure this one has you scratching your head.

>>people keep comparing it to other major cities etc

Yes, indeed - a luxury lifestyle in Bangkok is cheaper than London or Hong Kong. What does Hong Kong or London give me that Bangkok and the surrounding countries doesn't exactly?

>>Next theyll be investing in Darfur.

Another whining unintelligent comment. Sheesh, try posting something intelligent and based on facts.

No wonder you guys hate it here so much

I probably shouldnt be replying to someone so obviously stupid, but Ill answer your drivel just this once.

I didnt list all of the "problems" because everyone on the forums knows them and I didnt think Id need to list them. But since you seem to have had your head up your ass:

Political instability, they are still actually under military law.

There were 13,000 troops recently deployed because of expected riots.

According to the uk broadsheets there is defacto ethnic cleansing going on in the south and some expect it to spread to the north.

They are witholding 30% of foreign investment.

Economic outlook.

They are making it harder to get visas.

They have made it harder to get work permits.

They have changed the foreign ownership laws.

Bombs in Bkk.

The country is being run by people who actually have no idea what they are doing and you think its a good place to invest in. ( sheeesh as you would say).

What does London give you that Bkk doesnt? You dont know? Duh Stability. Your investment would be safe, and you would have rights. And if your comparing luxury lifestyles, then Londons is on another level to Bkk. Thats why it has so many millionaires and billionaires from around the world. Why has Thaksin been trying to buy a football team in the uk for years? Duh Because he knows his money would be safe. I think most Thai millionaires will be investing abroad at the moment if they can.

The " buying property in Darfur" was a joke. Lighten up.

None of us are whinging. You just say that because you cant argue with anything intelligent, so you just talk shit. You say we are whingers and are jealous because we cant afford property in los. I think anyone can afford to buy in los. I have 5 apartments in the uk and actually was about to buy in los when they came out with the 30% rule. I pulled out. I know its exempted now, but I am just going to rent.

lol whinging AND foul-mouthed too. Not completely unexpected.

You just made it perfectly clear that buying a high-end place here is too much of a financial 'risk' for you personally.

For many others it is not a significant financial 'risk' to them. You are just not in that fortunate position, so you whinge that people who can buy here easily must be 'stupid'.

[pkrv]

On the new visitor visas impacting the property market, I find this a strange concept to digest. I understand that you are allowed 90 days per year in Thailand. The company I work for is very generous and I have 30 days a year annual leave, even if I took all of this it pales into insignificance when compared with the allowed quota.

If you are in a position to use up this type of quota surely you fall into one of just a few categories:

Under 50:

1) So wealthy that 90 days in one place would probably bore you to death, if not just go for an investment visa!

2) No money and travel the world on a shoe string budget again 90 days would bore you to death, if not Thailand just like the rest of the international community would prefer you to reside in your home country rather than place a burden on its own economy.

3) Still working (and if reading this planning ), or in the dreaded redundancy scenario (and again if reading this also making plans )

Over 50:

1) 90 days may be enough - if not and you meet the financial requirements just go for a retirement visa.

2) If you have no money Thailand just like the rest of the international comunity would prefer you to reside in your home country rather than place a burden on its own economy.

[ThaiGoon]

[pkrv]

I have found a link to Thailand’s expectations for a ferang to retire here - I do not believe this to be arduous in financial (international) terms – BTW Thailand has its own aspirations.

If anyone can trash these comments please do. I personally have seen no indication/empirical evidence, that retirement, or indeed investment visas (amongst many others) are under threat - does anyone disagree? All I see is that Thailand is coming into line with international standards on visitors visas, was that truly unexpected?

http://www.thaivisa.com/318.0.html

[rott]

pkrv, not trashing your comments at all, but I do not understand how any farang can be a drain on the economy. As far as I know no farang is receiving unemployment benefit/housing benefit or welfare payments of any kind, at worst they may be renting a room at 4,000 a month or less, eating thai food and drinking chang.

Unless you are referring to those who end up in prison, but their numbers are relatively low.

rott

[solo siam]

pkrv, not trashing your comments at all, but I do not understand how any farang can be a drain on the economy. As far as I know no farang is receiving unemployment benefit/housing benefit or welfare payments of any kind, at worst they may be renting a room at 4,000 a month or less, eating thai food and drinking chang.

Unless you are referring to those who end up in prison, but their numbers are relatively low.

rott

I can see how it would be a drain if a Thai partner was paying the way for the farang, also they aren't paying any NI or Income tax/tax on investments which is used to pay for the police, government, local council, schooling etc....

[rott]

I can see how it would be a drain if a Thai partner was paying the way for the farang, also they aren't paying any NI or Income tax/tax on investments which is used to pay for the police, government, local council, schooling etc....

Hands up all those who know any farang who has a thai partner paying their way, (or even paying their own way!). And what percentage of Thais pay income tax/tax on investments?

All the farangs I know are long stay/semi-permanents,who contribute an average minimum of 65,000 a month to the economy and place no demands on the police/government local council or schools.

rott

[pkrv]

rott - many thanks for your thoughts - given that I too will be in this position one day, the following are comments on what I see today - nothing more, and I can only comment from a UK perspective.

1) The NI contributions (effectively an insurance premium) that went into providing state pension are effectively reneged on. Sure the pension is still paid but is frozen if you retire outside of the EU - Your income diminishes just as you begin to most need support (twilight years).

2) Private and Civil Service pensions, for the moment still being paid out, however these will be eroded and become more of a rarity in future. In any case pensions do not really keep pace with inflation, again income diminishes.

3) Pot of cash. My guess is that people make use of their core asset, the home, in many different ways, rental, equity release etc. But even here a pot of cash will go down, and even with a relatively ordinary property now being taxed under inheritance tax rules, leaves many being forced to sell at say 70.

4) If you invest and lose, there is no way to recover except to attempt to start over.

So basically finances still end up on a slippery downward spiral - conversely:

The problems of aging become more acute as you grow older, and you need much more support, fine say in your 50's and 60's but after that – I'm not going to elaborate but things can really go down hill….

So yes people do place a burden, they are not contributing and have less resources available when they need them the most - and that's the good guys. Everyone is policed, and OK this may not be diplomatic at this time but everyone needs an army, navy and air force, and this all has to be administered, and laws upheld plus a whole lot more.

I'm sorry but you pay your way in society when you are young - quite frankly I get the impression when you retire the state would prefer you to hurry up and die which I course I for one have no intention of doing

This can all be seen by the international community's stance on retirement visas. I think every county has the concept and minimum criteria that must be met. You can bet your bottom dollar that the state has calculated out how to squeeze out the final dregs before you finally kick the bucket however I think they have done such a good job it will cause problems in the next generation, for society as a whole.

Edited June 21, 2007 by pkrv

[quiksilva]

Hands up all those who know any farang who has a thai partner paying their way, (or even paying their own way!). And what percentage of Thais pay income tax/tax on investments?

All the farangs I know are long stay/semi-permanents,who contribute an average minimum of 65,000 a month to the economy and place no demands on the police/government local council or schools.

rott

**raises hand** My wife pays her own way. I hear its the same for many other Thais who work at multinational companies, and yes even some Thai companies.

However, I do agree Farangs are hardly a drain on the economy, quite the opposite.

[pkrv]

I agree the money generally would flow into the economy, but as you grow older and wiser you tend to quite legitimately limit your tax liabilities (e.g. be forced by the state to sell your home to negate inheritence tax). From a governments perspective there is no direct and measurable flow of revenue.

I guess the UK attempted to deal with this by 17.5% VAT. Percieved revenue flow is what causes the problems. Governments simply understand hard numbers (that they can see) and are a spectacularly inept at anything else, especially if it requires a brain.

[jumnien]

Natee Teerarojjanapongs, director of the Thai Political Gay Group, said many gay men were raped by women, who were known as Fag Hags.

The term refers to women who associate mostly and exclusively with gay men either because they like their company or are secretly sexually attracted to gay men.

This proliferation of attacks on men by Fag Hags is making the condo situation seem riskier, though perhaps more attractive. Anyone seen my Calvin Klein slacks and muscle shirt?

[pkrv]

mdeland -

Probably about as much impact on the property market as the new 90 day Thai visitor visas. Everything else is OK (bar the above shocking revelation )

Edited June 21, 2007 by pkrv

[obsession]

I have found a link to Thailand’s expectations for a ferang to retire here - I do not believe this to be arduous in financial (international) terms – BTW Thailand has its own aspirations.

If anyone can trash these comments please do. I personally have seen no indication/empirical evidence, that retirement, or indeed investment visas (amongst many others) are under threat - does anyone disagree? All I see is that Thailand is coming into line with international standards on visitors visas, was that truly unexpected?

http://www.thaivisa.com/318.0.html

How is Thailand coming in to line with other S>E> countries? A 10 year retirement visa is available in Malaysia and Cambodia will sellyou a tourist or business visa. People are leaving los because of the visa problems.

[jumnien]

If people are leaving LOS because of visa problems, we need more problems, because there's still too many farang driving up the prices and clogging the roads around here. No need to make it any easier than it already is.

[obsession]

If people are leaving LOS because of visa problems, we need more problems, because there's still too many farang driving up the prices and clogging the roads around here. No need to make it any easier than it already is.

Maybe you should be the only farang allowed in los so we dont get in your way or price you out. Are you a sociopath?

[jumnien]

If people are leaving LOS because of visa problems, we need more problems, because there's still too many farang driving up the prices and clogging the roads around here. No need to make it any easier than it already is.

Maybe you should be the only farang allowed in los so we dont get in your way or price you out. Are you a sociopath?

I've never considered myself a sociopath, but then again, I suppose sociopaths never do...

Anyway, I let the Thai authorities make up the visa regulations, it's their job. My job is to comply by them, which I have been for 10 years now. In my opinion, there is not a shortage of farang here in Thailand. If I ever feel the necessity to be immersed in a farang culture, I'll boogie on over to a farang country to live. In the meantime, I love living in Thailand and enjoy the hospitality of the Thai people.

As long as the Thai authorities act responsibly and do not flood the country with farang then yes, to answer the original post, I would buy a condo here. I've bought 4 already and just sold one. If they ease the visa regulations significantly, it may be time to move and pass my condos on to a member of the Farang Love Farang party. The world has over 200 countries and there are many places to live.

[pkrv]

I have found a link to Thailand's expectations for a ferang to retire here - I do not believe this to be arduous in financial (international) terms – BTW Thailand has its own aspirations.

If anyone can trash these comments please do. I personally have seen no indication/empirical evidence, that retirement, or indeed investment visas (amongst many others) are under threat - does anyone disagree? All I see is that Thailand is coming into line with international standards on visitors visas, was that truly unexpected?

http://www.thaivisa.com/318.0.html

How is Thailand coming in to line with other S>E> countries? A 10 year retirement visa is available in Malaysia and Cambodia will sellyou a tourist or business visa. People are leaving los because of the visa problems.

I think this where the problem with perception regarding property impact comes from

1) Lumping all visas into just one 'visa' issue is wrong, crass, manipulative, deceptive, misleading etc...

2) There is no impact on retirement visas.

3) There is no impact on investment visas (or business visas?)

4) THERE is an impact on visitor visas. These are being brought into line with the international community to reduce dropouts attempting to permanently reside in any country. 90 days is enough for a visitor, some other countries have 30 day visitor visas, some much less.

The question then becomes why state that the new 90 day visitor visa is a problem for the property market, these people have no money so could only buy if the market was at effectively 0.

[obsession]

I have found a link to Thailand's expectations for a ferang to retire here - I do not believe this to be arduous in financial (international) terms – BTW Thailand has its own aspirations.

If anyone can trash these comments please do. I personally have seen no indication/empirical evidence, that retirement, or indeed investment visas (amongst many others) are under threat - does anyone disagree? All I see is that Thailand is coming into line with international standards on visitors visas, was that truly unexpected?

http://www.thaivisa.com/318.0.html

How is Thailand coming in to line with other S>E> countries? A 10 year retirement visa is available in Malaysia and Cambodia will sellyou a tourist or business visa. People are leaving los because of the visa problems.

I think this where the problem with perception regarding property impact comes from

1) Lumping all visas into just one 'visa' issue is wrong, crass, manipulative, deceptive, misleading etc...

2) There is no impact on retirement visas.

3) There is no impact on investment visas (or business visas?)

4) THERE is an impact on visitor visas. These are being brought into line with the international community to reduce dropouts attempting to permanently reside in any country. 90 days is enough for a visitor, some other countries have 30 day visitor visas, some much less.

The question then becomes why state that the new 90 day visitor visa is a problem for the property market, these people have no money so could only buy if the market was at effectively 0.

I say again......

Not in line with Cambodia, Malaysia or Vietnam, which are Thailands main " competitors". Or are you just trying to compare them with western countries with rights for visitors and citizens. Apples should not be compared to oranges.

The problem for the property market is that tenants are leaving. Less customers. I guess you will never admit to los having any potential problems , but everything has a knock on effect. For example, visa run companies. TEFL schools.

I read that business visas and work permits are harder to get now. One of them had a 280 A4 page application. Are you actuallty denying that decent, working people are leaving los because of all the hoops they have to jump through now and that it will have no effect whatsoever on anything.

[obsession]

If people are leaving LOS because of visa problems, we need more problems, because there's still too many farang driving up the prices and clogging the roads around here. No need to make it any easier than it already is.

Maybe you should be the only farang allowed in los so we dont get in your way or price you out. Are you a sociopath?

I've never considered myself a sociopath, but then again, I suppose sociopaths never do...

Anyway, I let the Thai authorities make up the visa regulations, it's their job. My job is to comply by them, which I have been for 10 years now. In my opinion, there is not a shortage of farang here in Thailand. If I ever feel the necessity to be immersed in a farang culture, I'll boogie on over to a farang country to live. In the meantime, I love living in Thailand and enjoy the hospitality of the Thai people.

As long as the Thai authorities act responsibly and do not flood the country with farang then yes, to answer the original post, I would buy a condo here. I've bought 4 already and just sold one. If they ease the visa regulations significantly, it may be time to move and pass my condos on to a member of the Farang Love Farang party. The world has over 200 countries and there are many places to live.

Its a pity their hospitality hasnt rubbed off on you.

Do you rent to Thais? I would have thought that more farang meant more potential tenants, and easier tenants to collect the rent from. I rent out properties in the uk, but would prefer "holiday lets" for many reasons you can maybe relate to.

[pkrv]

I have found a link to Thailand's expectations for a ferang to retire here - I do not believe this to be arduous in financial (international) terms – BTW Thailand has its own aspirations.

If anyone can trash these comments please do. I personally have seen no indication/empirical evidence, that retirement, or indeed investment visas (amongst many others) are under threat - does anyone disagree? All I see is that Thailand is coming into line with international standards on visitors visas, was that truly unexpected?

http://www.thaivisa.com/318.0.html

How is Thailand coming in to line with other S>E> countries? A 10 year retirement visa is available in Malaysia and Cambodia will sellyou a tourist or business visa. People are leaving los because of the visa problems.

I think this where the problem with perception regarding property impact comes from

1) Lumping all visas into just one 'visa' issue is wrong, crass, manipulative, deceptive, misleading etc...

2) There is no impact on retirement visas.

3) There is no impact on investment visas (or business visas?)

4) THERE is an impact on visitor visas. These are being brought into line with the international community to reduce dropouts attempting to permanently reside in any country. 90 days is enough for a visitor, some other countries have 30 day visitor visas, some much less.

The question then becomes why state that the new 90 day visitor visa is a problem for the property market, these people have no money so could only buy if the market was at effectively 0.

I say again......

Not in line with Cambodia, Malaysia or Vietnam, which are Thailands main " competitors". Or are you just trying to compare them with western countries with rights for visitors and citizens. Apples should not be compared to oranges.

The problem for the property market is that tenants are leaving. Less customers. I guess you will never admit to los having any potential problems , but everything has a knock on effect. For example, visa run companies. TEFL schools.

I read that business visas and work permits are harder to get now. One of them had a 280 A4 page application. Are you actuallty denying that decent, working people are leaving los because of all the hoops they have to jump through now and that it will have no effect whatsoever on anything.

Interesting - I did ask on this forum how Thailand compared to condo issues with many countries I guess including Cambodia, Malaysia or Vietnam. What is the freehold stance in these countries?

Edited June 26, 2007 by pkrv

[jumnien]

The total number of work permits is increasing each year, the total number of farang living in Thailand is increasing each year; where are people getting the idea that the numbers are dwindling or that farang are moving out? Absurd... And as for the likelihood of a mass exodus to Vietnam, Cambodia and Malaysia, oh my! Of course, most of us would welcome it, but it's not likely to happen. As for farang, face it, we're stuck with them, you better learn to like them.

[craigt3365]

Love to visit Vietnam, but would NEVER live there. Same with Cambo. They are nothing like Thailand. Spent 2 months in Malaysia last year looking at places to live. Malaysia is quite nice, but Thailand is better. Better food!!!

[cmsally]

I think (well for me anyway) one of the key points for buying a condo is to consider how easy it would be to rent out (should I wish to) and the price I would be getting if I did in relation to sale price.

I would be interested to hear from anyone who has a batch of rental condos in BKK as to how it works for them at the moment.

Incidentally I will be condo hunting over the weekend and will try to post any info I get hold of for other people to use.

I think I will be covering a fair bit of ground so I will try and gather info for other people to save some legwork.