Under The Current Climate Would You Buy A Condo?

[MaiChai]

I have considered renting versus buying an apartment. Renting is very cheap in Bangkok at this time. There also seems to be plenty of property to rent (although not necessarily in the best locations). My apartment costs me 8000 baht a month to rent but would cost over a 1M to buy. Using simple mathematics, it would take a long time to rent to have paid the same amount for the purchase (maths=1M/8k=125 years; you can roughly factor in the appreciation of the property with rising rents, so lets forget that). Now I cant imagine what this apartment would look like in 125 years; on the basis of other old property in Bangkok, it would look like sh1t and u can guess no one would want to buy it. I cant believe the apartment would be still standing after this time, so when they tear it down and give me 1/125 of the land price, what will that be worth? On the basis that Thais never want to maintain property and it would be difficult for the management company to get owners to contribute enough each year to pay for refurbishment say every 5/10 years, you can guess the block will look really run down over time, which will affect the resale price.

However, buying houses is probably a good investment, if you can get round the land ownership laws, and don't get legally shafted somehow into loosing everything. However, how easy is it to rent out houses?

Lots of ifs and uncertainties. Maybe I will just buy a house to live in and keep the rest of the money in the bank?

[Casanundra]

I have considered renting versus buying an apartment. Renting is very cheap in Bangkok at this time. There also seems to be plenty of property to rent (although not necessarily in the best locations). My apartment costs me 8000 baht a month to rent but would cost over a 1M to buy. Using simple mathematics, it would take a long time to rent to have paid the same amount for the purchase (maths=1M/8k=125 years; you can roughly factor in the appreciation of the property with rising rents, so lets forget that). Now I cant imagine what this apartment would look like in 125 years; on the basis of other old property in Bangkok, it would look like sh1t and u can guess no one would want to buy it. I cant believe the apartment would be still standing after this time, so when they tear it down and give me 1/125 of the land price, what will that be worth? On the basis that Thais never want to maintain property and it would be difficult for the management company to get owners to contribute enough each year to pay for refurbishment say every 5/10 years, you can guess the block will look really run down over time, which will affect the resale price.

However, buying houses is probably a good investment, if you can get round the land ownership laws, and don't get legally shafted somehow into loosing everything. However, how easy is it to rent out houses?

Lots of ifs and uncertainties. Maybe I will just buy a house to live in and keep the rest of the money in the bank?

My points exactly. What is that old saying again... 'cash is king' right?

Getting around the land ownership issues is for sure going to get a lot tougher. I get to see hundreds of Thai lawyers walking through my door on a yearly basis and when you hear some of the things they dream up, well it positively makes you go pale and grey at the temples. I have now adopted a selective hearing problem lest I go potty thinking through each hair brained idea I get to see being presented.

Many say you should never trust a lawyer, I say never trust a lawyer too, especially when they are a Thai one, and even more so when they are in the property market.

[cclub75]

Using simple mathematics, it would take a long time to rent to have paid the same amount for the purchase (maths=1M/8k=125 years; you can roughly factor in the appreciation of the property with rising rents, so lets forget that). Now I cant imagine what this apartment would look like in 125 years;

Dear, you seem to have some problems with mathematics (even if your "idea" is right).

By renting, your appartment costs 8000x12 (months) = 96 000 THB per year.

To buy = 10.4 years (1 million / 96 000).

The "bulls" on this forum would tell you : okay, but don't forget the huuuuuuuuge capital gain you will make when you'll resale your appartment (because of course as we all know : everything goes up in Thailand, especially real estate)....

[MaiChai]

I have not read this thread for sometime, but I can say with certainty that I have lost the house that I built, that is in my wifes name, due to Thai laws. It was a fraud put together by some of wifes extended family, which the Thai legal system was not able to protect us from. We have lost the legal case and at some point in the future, our house will be auctioned and if I am lucky, I might get half of the auction price (or even have to buy back my own house). Thus I can say that the legal system is not strong here, and where there is the will, people will manipulate the rules and laws. So anyone can get shafted. Someone mentioned that there was not a first hand account of a foreigner loosing property due to Thai laws? Well it has happened to me.

Should I buy a property again here, I would be looking at owning the property myself, putting the land in my daughters name with my name as usefruit on the land deads. But as I said on my last post, there are too many ifs and buts, and I have been here long enough to know how things work here. So as has been said many times before, dont spend more than you can afford to loose and walk away from. We could see an about turn in the laws as has happened with Taksin...

Also, you never know, Vietnam or Cambodia might be a better place to live in 10/20 years time than Thailand? So what would you do then? Maybe renting is the best option?

You can probably guage that I am not convinced about investing again.

Oops, apologies about the maths Other arguements still stand though I think. 10 years in the same condo? Erm, maybe not? Language barriers, legal shinanigans, being manipulated and given half truths, lawyers saying something is certain and later turns out not to be so? Try suing a lawyer for bad advice or not doing things correctly? One thing is sure about the Thai legal system, you can draw out a legal case for many, many years, if either party wishes, or until one party runs out of money to pay the legal fees! To buy, with certaintity, maybe not?

Edited March 5, 2007 by MaiChai

[meom]

So how did you get cheated? I assume they used the house as collateral for a loan?

[MaiChai]

They forged my wifes signature on a loan paper. Since her first lawyer did not respond to the case within 15 days, she lost the case. We appealed to a higher court and they rejected the appeal. We were advised we could sue the lawyer for the loss, but then he is a lawyer and I guess he could spin out the case for a long time or get out of it somehow. I think we are on our third lawyer now, but even he says we will be sure on something that turns out not to be sure. I only heard about this legal case some time into the case because my wife did not want me to know about it. I think the whole legal process could drag on for another three years as the other party trys to get money out of us. They dont have much money to fight us, so we are hoping they will run out of money to pay their lawyer. I being rich farang can fight this one out or maybe we will just have to deal with it in another way? Who knows. TiT.

So dont forget that you are a guest here and have very few legal rights. Just pay as you go To cap all this, I still think Thailand is one of the best places in Asia to live and I love it here.

[meom]

Good luck with it. By the sound of it you'll be alright.

[Arkady]

The argument about buying a Condo now in cash to save for future rent increases is pretty much a false economy.

If you sank 5 million baht into a savings account and didn't touch it for 10 years whilst earning compound interest at 5% tax free over the same period then you would need to be paying rent of equivalent to approx 65k per month in order to break even over that period of time.

When you add into this the risk of the Condo deteriorating during that time, to the political and visa regulations having their effect and to being stuck in a place when Khun Kwai and the Karaoke beer drinkers band move into the Condo next door then I pretty much say that it is best to keep your money in the bank and move on when circumstances around you change.

Now, hands up all those currently paying 65k or more per month in rent and have been doing so over a period of 10 years? Anyone?

I paid over 65k in rent for over 10 years and never really considered buying until the Asian crisis hit and presented opportunities. Then I bought property here when prices were depressed and changed foreign currency to buy when the baht was over 42 to the dollar. Financially this has worked out and I am still happy with the property, although it would also have worked out even better financially, if I had invested the same amount in UK residential property or better still in shares of UK commercial property developers. I would suggest you have to be really happy with the building and confident that it will be well maintained and won't have problems with other things springing up around it. (A friend is now watching a sky scraper gradually coming up to obscure his condo's view of the Royal Bangkok Sports Club golf course in Bangkok.) Prices have gone up quite a bit and only prime buildings can be expected to appreciate. It also doesn't make sense to buy property here for those who can't be sure of having a secure visa on a long term basis.

Not sure about the maths on the 5 million baht deposit at 5%. It would only generate enough interest to pay rent at 21k per month. At the end of 10 years, you would still only be getting 21k a month and your rent might have doubled or tripled. To cover your rent safely over the longer term, the investment has got to be in something that pays a yield that keeps pace with Thai rental inflation and is in baht or roghly hedged against the baht.

[Pattaya46]

Also, you never know, Vietnam or Cambodia might be a better place to live in 10/20 years time than Thailand? So what would you do then? Maybe renting is the best option?

Be carreful! Same problem in Vietnam and Cambodia :

As a foreigner you can't "own" land, you can only "rent" it to put your house on...

Pattaya46

[pkrv]

English is a complex language - If by now there is no undersatnding that you cannot own land in Thailand - then you are thrown to the wolves.

However a Home is a Home and that too is relevent, where do we go from here?

[MaiChai]

In terms of a condo being a good long term investment, here a couple of things I have observed/come across:

A Thai friend bought a condo 10 years ago in Suttisan; it has a pool/gym/etc and is a good development I believe. He tells me he bought it for 600k and believes it is now worth about 700k. Thus not much of a appreciation in value. I wonder how much he has paid in mortguage interest for the period, so most likely he has not made any profit? He told me he rather put his money into buying something than rent. On the other hand, to buy into a new development for about the same size in the same area would cost you now about 1M baht. So the entry price has increased considerably; maybe increased construction and land prices?

I also notice that you seem to pay a premium for new? Maybe buying a new condo is like buying a new car, as soon as buy you will loose alot of money if you wish to sell in a short period of time? Seems much less risky and cheaper to buy an older condo?

Edited March 9, 2007 by MaiChai

[Casanundra]

I wonder how much he has paid in mortguage interest for the period

As most foreigners cannot get a mortgage beyond an 8 year repayment period with an APR of 9% then the chances are he didn't have a mortgage to pay for it although he is your friend so maybe he could tell you direct.

The true cost would have been based on interest lost over that period versus rent paid for a similar property. In the case of something costing only 600k I would probably say that he has been better off buying however that only really works when he comes to sell and can get all of his original investment back in hard cash.

[bingobongo]

Monday March 12, 2007 REAL ESTATE MARKET OUTLOOK AND NEW DEVELOPMENTS

Supply glut starting to put pressure on prices

NINA SUEBSUKCHAROEN

The central Bangkok property market is facing difficult times as supply outstrips demand that, making people think more carefully before deciding on purchases, says Ian Soo, the managing director of Hamptons property.

While the political situation continues to cast a cloud over the landscape, Mr Soo does not see this to be a huge factor, saying simple market forces are the key issue.

''There is a huge amount of stock on the market at the moment, both in the sale and rental markets, so buyers or tenants do have more choice and ultimately whatever they take, it's going to come down to value for money and pricing,'' he said.

''There are still good deals to be had, make no mistake, but you just have to be more careful where you look for them.''

Hamptons has sold a few good units so far this year but at least half have been sold at below cost, even in good projects.

''I think this is an indication that people who are speculating without any intention to take ownership, and they can't sell at profit, they are basically having to sell at cost or maybe below cost to be able to get out of the transaction.''

Mr Soo said the market had to accept the fact that supply has been increasing, with thousands of new units completed or going to be completed in a year or two.

Developers and buyers, he said, took a different view two years ago when many of the projects now nearing completion were first announced. Pent-up demand at the time seemed strong. ''Now all this stuff is actually coming on the market in one go, and then you suddenly need thousands more tenants, thousands more buyers to take up this demand.''

For this reason, he is convinced that the market direction is either flat or down. ''I don't believe anyone can say it's still going up. If they do, ask them how they justify that comment.''

Obviously prices will come under pressure. An example he cites is a two-bedroom unit at the upscale condo The Lakes, with around 100 to 110 square metres. A year ago the firm could have rented it out for 70,000 baht a month but today the owner can get only 60,000 to 65,000 baht.

In a buyer's market, landlords cannot set rental rates based on what they got last year or the year before but must accept what the market rate really is.

''And it's the same for sales,'' says Mr Soo. ''They can't bear to think they'll get less than before. It's the same with stocks: if you buy a stock for 100 baht, it goes down to 80 and it might fall further. You can't hold on but you want to sell it at over a hundred. So if it goes down to 50, what do you do? People have to be realistic about pricing, basically, if you're a seller or a landlord.''

On the positive side, the current conditions are good for those who have not yet bought a unit to live in. ''There are still some really good deals to be had and some of the units that we have been asked to sell we have sold within a few days _ it never reached the market.''

Mr Soo urges the authorities to consider reintroducing the tax breaks that ended in 2002 to spur the market. The revival of the property transfer fee cut to 0.01% would be a start. ''That's the most obvious way to help things move along better.''

While there are worrying signals that the US housing market is slowing, Mr Soo does not buy into notions of a global real estate slowdown, given the wide variations from country to country and region to region. He notes that a lot of buyers dealing with his company are from England and the UK market is still very strong.

On the other hand, the property market is linked to any market from which people derive income, so the health of stock markets, retailing and consumer confidence and spending all bear watching.

Mr Soo advises those shopping around for a good condominium unit that it's not necessary to wait until the year-end or for interest rates to fall further to get a good deal, because it's not a question of time but more about what is available.

''At the moment I have five to six properties that we are expecting to sell quickly and if those properties match your requirements you shouldn't wait, otherwise you might wait six months and the property might not be on the market.

''It's about what is a good deal at the moment. If there are good deals to be had, then fine. If not, then you can wait longer but don't wait if there's something good on the market.''

On the other hand, sellers should not be swayed by prices advertised in newspapers because often these are not what the advertised properties are sold at.

Mr Soo has noted that a tendency among his clients to seek newer buildings if they are well maintained and have good facilities. However, older buyers who are coming to Thailand to retire do not mind older buildings because they sometimes offer more privacy, being located farther into sois. and units generally are bigger.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/Yourmoney/12Mar2007_money47.php

[1Rai.com]

Monday March 12, 2007 REAL ESTATE MARKET OUTLOOK AND NEW DEVELOPMENTS

Supply glut starting to put pressure on prices

NINA SUEBSUKCHAROEN

The central Bangkok property market is facing difficult times as supply outstrips demand that, making people think more carefully before deciding on purchases, says Ian Soo, the managing director of Hamptons property.

While the political situation continues to cast a cloud over the landscape, Mr Soo does not see this to be a huge factor, saying simple market forces are the key issue.

''There is a huge amount of stock on the market at the moment, both in the sale and rental markets, so buyers or tenants do have more choice and ultimately whatever they take, it's going to come down to value for money and pricing,'' he said.

''There are still good deals to be had, make no mistake, but you just have to be more careful where you look for them.''

Hamptons has sold a few good units so far this year but at least half have been sold at below cost, even in good projects.

''I think this is an indication that people who are speculating without any intention to take ownership, and they can't sell at profit, they are basically having to sell at cost or maybe below cost to be able to get out of the transaction.''

Mr Soo said the market had to accept the fact that supply has been increasing, with thousands of new units completed or going to be completed in a year or two.

Developers and buyers, he said, took a different view two years ago when many of the projects now nearing completion were first announced. Pent-up demand at the time seemed strong. ''Now all this stuff is actually coming on the market in one go, and then you suddenly need thousands more tenants, thousands more buyers to take up this demand.''

For this reason, he is convinced that the market direction is either flat or down. ''I don't believe anyone can say it's still going up. If they do, ask them how they justify that comment.''

Obviously prices will come under pressure. An example he cites is a two-bedroom unit at the upscale condo The Lakes, with around 100 to 110 square metres. A year ago the firm could have rented it out for 70,000 baht a month but today the owner can get only 60,000 to 65,000 baht.

In a buyer's market, landlords cannot set rental rates based on what they got last year or the year before but must accept what the market rate really is.

''And it's the same for sales,'' says Mr Soo. ''They can't bear to think they'll get less than before. It's the same with stocks: if you buy a stock for 100 baht, it goes down to 80 and it might fall further. You can't hold on but you want to sell it at over a hundred. So if it goes down to 50, what do you do? People have to be realistic about pricing, basically, if you're a seller or a landlord.''

On the positive side, the current conditions are good for those who have not yet bought a unit to live in. ''There are still some really good deals to be had and some of the units that we have been asked to sell we have sold within a few days _ it never reached the market.''

Mr Soo urges the authorities to consider reintroducing the tax breaks that ended in 2002 to spur the market. The revival of the property transfer fee cut to 0.01% would be a start. ''That's the most obvious way to help things move along better.''

While there are worrying signals that the US housing market is slowing, Mr Soo does not buy into notions of a global real estate slowdown, given the wide variations from country to country and region to region. He notes that a lot of buyers dealing with his company are from England and the UK market is still very strong.

On the other hand, the property market is linked to any market from which people derive income, so the health of stock markets, retailing and consumer confidence and spending all bear watching.

Mr Soo advises those shopping around for a good condominium unit that it's not necessary to wait until the year-end or for interest rates to fall further to get a good deal, because it's not a question of time but more about what is available.

''At the moment I have five to six properties that we are expecting to sell quickly and if those properties match your requirements you shouldn't wait, otherwise you might wait six months and the property might not be on the market.

''It's about what is a good deal at the moment. If there are good deals to be had, then fine. If not, then you can wait longer but don't wait if there's something good on the market.''

On the other hand, sellers should not be swayed by prices advertised in newspapers because often these are not what the advertised properties are sold at.

Mr Soo has noted that a tendency among his clients to seek newer buildings if they are well maintained and have good facilities. However, older buyers who are coming to Thailand to retire do not mind older buildings because they sometimes offer more privacy, being located farther into sois. and units generally are bigger.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/Yourmoney/12Mar2007_money47.php

You can't argue with supply and demand

I have also noticed from 1Rai.com that enquiries to agents has dramatically risen in the last 2 months... everyone is selling and the buyers know it. There are a lot of folks here trying to use the current situation to deal-hunt.

There's also an enormous amount of interest in Thai real estate at the moment from expat Thais.

[JimmyCA]

Given the current climate of change in Thailand along with the new visa rules, lack of government coupled with the economic climate here... would you buy a Grade A Condo in a good location for about 4.5 million baht?

Yes or No?

a resounding noooooo!

4.5 mil you are looking at grade B

[JimmyCA]

Monday March 12, 2007 REAL ESTATE MARKET OUTLOOK AND NEW DEVELOPMENTS

Supply glut starting to put pressure on prices

NINA SUEBSUKCHAROEN

The central Bangkok property market is facing difficult times as supply outstrips demand that, making people think more carefully before deciding on purchases, says Ian Soo, the managing director of Hamptons property.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/Yourmoney/12Mar2007_money47.php

When you combine this situation with the financial savvy of the typical Farang in Thailand (and Thai), exchange rates, etc. you can count on choopy seas ahead.

A good time to wait and see.

[pkrv]

Casanundra - I'm sorry but are you suggesting ferangs can buy a condominium with a mortgage sourced in Thailand????? when the law requires that all funds for such purposes be explicity documented as being sourced from outside of Thialand!

JimmyCA - I'm afraid I will have to disagree. I believe we are now talking about a C-

Edited June 12, 2007 by pkrv

[typist]

Supply glut starting to put pressure on prices

The central Bangkok property market is facing difficult times as supply outstrips demand that, making people think more carefully before deciding on purchases, says Ian Soo, the managing director of Hamptons property.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/Yourmoney/12Mar2007_money47.php

...

A good time to wait and see.

It's always a good time to wait and see.

Times of uncertainty are not particulalrly good to wait and see. Quite contrarily, imho, times of uncertainty can be a great chance: Buy when noone else buys, and sell when everyone else buys.

(easier said than done, I know )

[cmsally]

I agree now should be a great time. I have already had a couple of bargains pushed in front of my nose.

Amounts of cash involved not huge and would be impossible to make a loss.

Do your homework first and make decisions quick because people normally need money fast.

[JimmyCA]

Supply glut starting to put pressure on prices

The central Bangkok property market is facing difficult times as supply outstrips demand that, making people think more carefully before deciding on purchases, says Ian Soo, the managing director of Hamptons property.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/Yourmoney/12Mar2007_money47.php

...

A good time to wait and see.

It's always a good time to wait and see.

Times of uncertainty are not particulalrly good to wait and see. Quite contrarily, imho, times of uncertainty can be a great chance: Buy when noone else buys, and sell when everyone else buys.

(easier said than done, I know )

While your comment is true, it does not apply after a HUGH run up in prices and a glut of supply. They can only go down.

But buying in Thailand is not suitable for investment anyway, only if you want to live there until you sell possibly at a loss someday

[backflip]

In every circumstance, every house/condo in Thailand has a fair market value. Unfortunately, the price might be higher than you want to pay, or the owner wants to sell it for.

[palm]

If you like a property and want to live in it, and have the spare cash, then buy it.

Real estate, (like Government bonds) etc are limited return investments (5% to 10%) a year at best.

If you are buying as an investment, there are far better ways to earn a decent return.

Property in Bangkok is still cheap as chips (10m to 15m) for a nice condo compared to other major cities.

If you have a great income, owning a condo in Bangkok is far nicer than having to rent one; even the expensive rental ones I've seen have such terrible decoration. With your own place, you can decorate it how you like; knock down walls and build your own little palace.

[obsession]

With all the "problems" thailand is having just now, it should be a buyers market. Its only because farangs leave their brains at the airport and also that people keep comparing it to other major cities etc , that los property prices arent in freefall. Next theyll be investing in Darfur.

[thaigene2]

If you like a property and want to live in it, and have the spare cash, then buy it.

Real estate, (like Government bonds) etc are limited return investments (5% to 10%) a year at best.

If you are buying as an investment, there are far better ways to earn a decent return.

Property in Bangkok is still cheap as chips (10m to 15m) for a nice condo compared to other major cities.

If you have a great income, owning a condo in Bangkok is far nicer than having to rent one; even the expensive rental ones I've seen have such terrible decoration. With your own place, you can decorate it how you like; knock down walls and build your own little palace.

..and then learn a year or two later that the visa rule have changed again, and you'll only be able 'live in it' 90 days per annum.

[palm]

If you like a property and want to live in it, and have the spare cash, then buy it.

Real estate, (like Government bonds) etc are limited return investments (5% to 10%) a year at best.

If you are buying as an investment, there are far better ways to earn a decent return.

Property in Bangkok is still cheap as chips (10m to 15m) for a nice condo compared to other major cities.

If you have a great income, owning a condo in Bangkok is far nicer than having to rent one; even the expensive rental ones I've seen have such terrible decoration. With your own place, you can decorate it how you like; knock down walls and build your own little palace.

..and then learn a year or two later that the visa rule have changed again, and you'll only be able 'live in it' 90 days per annum.

Just the same old tired nonsense from those who can't afford to buy here anything decent here. Boo hoo hoo.

I don't get free handouts or permanent residence from the Brazilian government either, so maybe owning a condo in Rio is stupid too? Sheesh. You guys need to be a little more grown up about how the big wide world works and then maybe you wouldn't be so bitter.

Edited June 16, 2007 by palm

[palm]

With all the "problems" thailand is having just now, it should be a buyers market. Its only because farangs leave their brains at the airport and also that people keep comparing it to other major cities etc , that los property prices arent in freefall. Next theyll be investing in Darfur.

Yet more smoke and mirrors. None of you whingers talk any common sense at all.

>>With all the "problems" thailand is having just now, it should be a buyers market.

I'm sure this one has you scratching your head.

>>people keep comparing it to other major cities etc

Yes, indeed - a luxury lifestyle in Bangkok is cheaper than London or Hong Kong. What does Hong Kong or London give me that Bangkok and the surrounding countries doesn't exactly?

>>Next theyll be investing in Darfur.

Another whining unintelligent comment. Sheesh, try posting something intelligent and based on facts.

No wonder you guys hate it here so much

[calibanjr.]

I agree now should be a great time. I have already had a couple of bargains pushed in front of my nose.

Amounts of cash involved not huge and would be impossible to make a loss.

Do your homework first and make decisions quick because people normally need money fast.

In my experience, just watching the travails of biz people in LOS, not myself, YET (I'm working on it) , it's never impossible to make a loss for a farang in Thailand, even if he were to "purchase" property for free. Might be a touch pessimistic, but I've seen some funky goings-on.

[think_too_mut]

Just the same old tired nonsense from those who can't afford to buy here anything decent here. Boo hoo hoo.

Decent, "here"?

Whatever one buys in BKK will mean no stone sculptures of lions at the gate.

Only a pack of stray and sick soi dogs whenever you come in or out.

[obsession]

With all the "problems" thailand is having just now, it should be a buyers market. Its only because farangs leave their brains at the airport and also that people keep comparing it to other major cities etc , that los property prices arent in freefall. Next theyll be investing in Darfur.

Yet more smoke and mirrors. None of you whingers talk any common sense at all.

>>With all the "problems" thailand is having just now, it should be a buyers market.

I'm sure this one has you scratching your head.

>>people keep comparing it to other major cities etc

Yes, indeed - a luxury lifestyle in Bangkok is cheaper than London or Hong Kong. What does Hong Kong or London give me that Bangkok and the surrounding countries doesn't exactly?

>>Next theyll be investing in Darfur.

Another whining unintelligent comment. Sheesh, try posting something intelligent and based on facts.

No wonder you guys hate it here so much

I probably shouldnt be replying to someone so obviously stupid, but Ill answer your drivel just this once.

I didnt list all of the "problems" because everyone on the forums knows them and I didnt think Id need to list them. But since you seem to have had your head up your ass:

Political instability, they are still actually under military law.

There were 13,000 troops recently deployed because of expected riots.

According to the uk broadsheets there is defacto ethnic cleansing going on in the south and some expect it to spread to the north.

They are witholding 30% of foreign investment.

Economic outlook.

They are making it harder to get visas.

They have made it harder to get work permits.

They have changed the foreign ownership laws.

Bombs in Bkk.

The country is being run by people who actually have no idea what they are doing and you think its a good place to invest in. ( sheeesh as you would say).

What does London give you that Bkk doesnt? You dont know? Duh Stability. Your investment would be safe, and you would have rights. And if your comparing luxury lifestyles, then Londons is on another level to Bkk. Thats why it has so many millionaires and billionaires from around the world. Why has Thaksin been trying to buy a football team in the uk for years? Duh Because he knows his money would be safe. I think most Thai millionaires will be investing abroad at the moment if they can.

The " buying property in Darfur" was a joke. Lighten up.

None of us are whinging. You just say that because you cant argue with anything intelligent, so you just talk shit. You say we are whingers and are jealous because we cant afford property in los. I think anyone can afford to buy in los. I have 5 apartments in the uk and actually was about to buy in los when they came out with the 30% rule. I pulled out. I know its exempted now, but I am just going to rent.

[pkrv]

Perhaps another way of trying to digest why there are such different views here, (I will be open say I am investing in The Park, due to complete in August, this has been a 4 year project build), is that Thailand is growing up and it is true it is a country wrestling in its infancy with democracy.

Anyone who invests in Thailand is an utter fool if they do not go in with their eyes wide open.

All countries impose strict visitor visa rules on tourists (including Australia, US and the UK) – Thailand has simply and inevitably come into line. Let us be absolutely frank the old system was extremely badly abused by the most undesirable elements, by any society’s standards. Unfortunately such ‘trash’ utterly ruined the relationship that had existed for many years. So to balance such comments yes Thailand had come into line with the international community on visitor visas – However retirement visas are still available (as they are in the international community). Please when discussing Visas be balanced, otherwise it looks like you have an agenda.

Emperor_tud – you are only partially correct, some people are effectively living in Thailand, simply because they have no money and can live nowhere else (and indeed have failed to make it elsewhere, including their home country). These people are effectively placing a huge burden on Thai society, as they muddle their way through – often (not always) using very unscrupulous methods (bypassing Thai law, drugs, scams you name it!). If you bring money into the country on a retirement visa package you are welcomed with open arms. Be honest there is a big difference in the two groups of Ferangs (and no it is not just about money it is far, far more than that)

Calibanjr – A loss or a gain of 1M THB on a property = the cost of a reasonable car in the UK – we should keep this in perspective. It’s not relevant.

Think_too_mut – from your comments you seem very disillusioned with Thailand, yes there are soi dogs, no there are generally not sculptures of lions (I guess you do not mean lion dogs) at the gates, this is a feature of Europe, why are you in Thailand when what you seek is more of a European lifestyle? To be honest if I did not like somewhere I would move on, please be honest are you now ‘stuck’ in Thailand, are there any alternatives for you? What keeps you here?

Obsession – I’m sorry but your comments just do not make sense. If Thailand met all of the criteria (including as they have already done so bringing tourist visas into line with international standards), and notwithstanding the bombs going off in London (which BTW has the largest amount of closed circuit television coverage in the world linked to image recognition systems), would not Thai prices perfectly match London prices? Is it not the point that Thailand is up and coming (IMHO) that is continuing to drive up prices (from an extremely low level by G7 standards)…. Just two/three years ago 100K psm was steep; today it is more like 150k psm.