Brit. Murders in Thailand

[CNXBKKMAN]

The facts and stats in Thailand are not very accurate or complete. You can only get fuzzy results from fuzzy stats. If OP only wants hard facts well he will be disapointed in Thailand.

[chiang mai]

flame removed

But by attacking me instead of providing facts or balanced rebuttal to THE UK GOVERMENTS FIGURES (not mine), all you're doing is reaffirming that you're in the points scoring game and you care not a jot about fact or sensible arguments, again and again and again.

[Moonsterk]

I'm interested in fact, not emotion, not bar stool stories, not "I think I know", not "my Thai wife knows", just fact and I tend to trust the UK government on this kind of data.

My last Thai gf admitted to killing her Swedish husband.

The Thai authorities recorded his death as a RTA (hit and run), which is what the Swedish government accepted.

Once again that's a view that is based on suspicion alone, zero fact. In favour of the opposite view is that UK authorities might become a little suspicious where a body is returned to the UK containing bullet holes or knife wounds where the cause of death was listed as suicide, don't you think!

Most foreigners are cremated in Thailand, very soon after their death.

I don't think many are killed by guns or knives.

More likely RTAs or balcony falls, or died of natural causes.

What about all those mysterious deaths in the CM Deathtown Inn ......

did any foreign path labs rule on cause of death?

did they even get to examine the bodies?

I think not.

Those were attributed to incorrect usage of pesticides. Lot of ways to die here through someone else's stupidity without having to feed into the rampant murder conspiracies of casual tourists, who often are behaving in risky ways such as youths doing the Full Moon parties.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Moonsterk

[chiang mai]

The facts and stats in Thailand are not very accurate or complete. You can only get fuzzy results from fuzzy stats. If OP only wants hard facts well he will be disapointed in Thailand.

I accept the first part as truth yet I'm pretty sure if people dig deep enough a reasonably true picture will emerge. For example: In 2008 Andy Pearce, Deputy Head of UK Mission Thailand said he believed that the murder rate for UK expats in Thailand was about the same as for local people, 5 murders per 100,000 people. Given 50,000 resident British expats in Thailand that works out to be 2.5 people per year, certainly consistent with the numbers provided in the OP. Tourists are here typically for short duration, on average for one week, their behavior is different from residents who for the most part have closer relations with the population than casual tourists, and so on.

[MaeJoMTB]

Those were attributed to incorrect usage of pesticides.

I'm gonna apply CM's rules to this comment.

Post a link or it isn't true.

Best I can find says unexplained.

http://www.thaizer.com/news/chiang-mai-deaths-remain-unresolved/

Edited March 14, 2016 by MaeJoMTB

[CNXBKKMAN]

Every now and then some news reports appear showing that UK police are not perfect in recording crime especially when it's beneficial to them in some way.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-30081682

Can we expect the RTP stats to be super accurate? When there is a big crime like the murders on Koh Tao the detectives never seem to be very skilfed. These are the guys who label a death , a murder, accident, "broken heart" or whatever.

[chiang mai]

Those were attributed to incorrect usage of pesticides.

I'm gonna apply CM's rules to this comment.

Post a link or it isn't true.

Best I can find says unexplained.

http://www.thaizer.com/news/chiang-mai-deaths-remain-unresolved/

Your best isn't quite good enough, posting somebody's blog as confirmation of anything, isn't going to cut it on this issue I'm afraid MJ.

[chiang mai]

Every now and then some news reports appear showing that UK police are not perfect in recording crime especially when it's beneficial to them in some way.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-30081682

Can we expect the RTP stats to be super accurate? When there is a big crime like the murders on Koh Tao the detectives never seem to be very skilfed. These are the guys who label a death , a murder, accident, "broken heart" or whatever.

Of course the stats are not super accurate, few from any source rarely are. And sure, in every country in the world there's going to be, from time to time, cover ups, mistakes, mismanagement and so on, RTP can be expected to be no different.

The question I suppose is how far off super accurate are these stats. and what's believable and reasonable?

My starting point for that is the total number of deaths per year which seems to be an undisputed 362 last year. Given all the factors we know about from first hand experience of living here for an extended period, we are certain there are other more likely reasons for a persons death than just murder, old age (based on 50k resident expats), RTA's given the overall numbers of 25k+ road deaths per year), drownings (because the press admits this is so) and then there's die ing because of bad health or whilst in medical reasons plus a whole host of other entirely valid causes and reasons. Once you start subtracting from 362 an approximate number for each cause mentioned (and not) what's left could be down to murder, but it's going to be a very small number and less than 5 seems very reasonable to me.

But Thai bashers, readers of the Sun and non-thinkers wont have it any other way, what more can or needs to be said.

[CharlieH]

flames/off topic/bickering removed.

[NanLaew]

Pulled the following 'statistics' from the OP and subsequent posts.

Less than 5 Brits have been murdered out of 362 Brit deaths out of approximately 2.7 million Brit visitors.

Perspective anyone?

[chiang mai]

Pulled the following 'statistics' from the OP and subsequent posts.

Less than 5 Brits have been murdered out of 362 Brit deaths out of approximately 2.7 million Brit visitors.

Perspective anyone?

Not sure about your 2.7 million visits, I see 900,00 British visitors per year.

And I think you have to separate resident expats and visitors for a variety of obvious reasons, not the least being duration incountry.

[CharlieH]

Could you please discuss/debate the topic NOT the poster nor make personal remarks.

refer to rule 7.

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

[NanLaew]

Pulled the following 'statistics' from the OP and subsequent posts.

Less than 5 Brits have been murdered out of 362 Brit deaths out of approximately 2.7 million Brit visitors.

Perspective anyone?

Not sure about your 2.7 million visits, I see 900,00 British visitors per year.

And I think you have to separate resident expats and visitors for a variety of obvious reasons, not the least being duration incountry.

Your OP stated a 3-year range for Brit murders and post #2 stated a 2-year range for overall Brit deaths. I multiplied the 900,000 Brit visitors per annum from post #19 by three. Otherwise there is no close correlation (12 months versus 24 or 36 months)

I don't think there's any difference between a 'pure' tourist being murdered versus a 'semi-resident' retiree being murdered beyond the actual circumstances. Both are visitors (not Thai) and both are ultimately dead (not living any more) under the same classification regardless of the "variety of obvious reasons" you mention.

But it's your thread and only you know where you want it to go.

Edited March 14, 2016 by NanLaew

[willyumiii]

Far too many deaths of foreigners in Thailand are called suicides.

Cases where people" fall" or " jump" of of balconies.

And even cases where people "hang themselves" with their hands tied behind their backs

It saves the police a lot of work and,,

It's only a farang, so who cares?

[willyumiii]

Murder or not, it would be interesting to know the number of British deaths in Thailand compared to other nationalities.

May the Brits just get all f the press, but it seems we hear about their deaths more often than others.

[billd766]

British deaths overseas in 2013-2014, as compiled by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. Thailand is the second most dangerous place, after Spain. (Source cited below.)

Spain - 856

USA - 125

Thailand - 362

France - 346

Greece - 160

United Arab Emirates - 75

Cyprus - 157

Australia - 72

India - 89

Germany - 146

Turkey - 75

China - 66

Philippines - 82

Pakistan - 21

Portugal - 131

Egypt - 49

Canada - 32

Switzerland - 173

Italy - 45

Jamaica - 23

Source: FCO

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3086453/The-country-highest-proportion-British-deaths-Philippines-cost-17-000-repatriate-body.html#ixzz42pRl0Vqc

If you do read the report at the bottom there another link to the FCO causes. This gives more detailed information.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/363684/141013_British_Behaviour_Abroad_report_2014.pdf

The larger number of deaths as in the Philippines is accounted for the larger number of Brits actually resident in the country as it does for Thailand.

The headline of the OP is somewhat ambiguous until you dig a little deeper.

[billd766]

Do you really accept Thailands Data , most deaths here are swept under the carpet .They cannot afford to soil Thailands great image .?

It's UK government data.

But based on Thai data.

You know this for a fact do you?

[billd766]

And no, looking at overall numbers is not helpful in making people understand the reason for the number. 362 deaths is likely to be something like 2 murders, 90 RTA deaths, 25 drownings, 15 suicides, 200 natural causes and some miscellaneous. If people were to understand that eventual break down they could perhaps modify their behavior accordingly and/or not be so scared of the reports that Thailand has the highest rate of gun deaths in the world and how likely you are to be murdered here.

Alternatively,

One could assume 260 of the 360 deaths were murders, and would likely be just as accurate.

Your rose coloured glasses completely obscure the dangers of Thailand to you.

You have no credibility on this subject.

So where is your proof of what you say?

Do you have any facts or figures to back up your statement, for without that, you have no credibility either?

[TEFLKrabi]

British deaths overseas in 2013-2014, as compiled by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. Thailand is the second most dangerous place, after Spain. (Source cited below.)

Spain - 856

USA - 125

Thailand - 362

France - 346

Greece - 160

United Arab Emirates - 75

Cyprus - 157

Australia - 72

India - 89

Germany - 146

Turkey - 75

China - 66

Philippines - 82

Pakistan - 21

Portugal - 131

Egypt - 49

Canada - 32

Switzerland - 173

Italy - 45

Jamaica - 23

Source: FCO

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3086453/The-country-highest-proportion-British-deaths-Philippines-cost-17-000-repatriate-body.html#ixzz42pRl0Vqc

As many people come here in later life, to retire, it's not surprising there are more deaths. Being old is quite perilous.

[chiang mai]

Pulled the following 'statistics' from the OP and subsequent posts.

Less than 5 Brits have been murdered out of 362 Brit deaths out of approximately 2.7 million Brit visitors.

Perspective anyone?

Not sure about your 2.7 million visits, I see 900,00 British visitors per year.

And I think you have to separate resident expats and visitors for a variety of obvious reasons, not the least being duration incountry.

Your OP stated a 3-year range for Brit murders and post #2 stated a 2-year range for overall Brit deaths. I multiplied the 900,000 Brit visitors per annum from post #19 by three. Otherwise there is no close correlation (12 months versus 24 or 36 months)

I don't think there's any difference between a 'pure' tourist being murdered versus a 'semi-resident' retiree being murdered beyond the actual circumstances. Both are visitors (not Thai) and both are ultimately dead (not living any more) under the same classification regardless of the "variety of obvious reasons" you mention.

But it's your thread and only you know where you want it to go.

OK, now I understand your 2.7 mill. number and I agree.

I don't agree however on the difference in behavior between long term residents and casual tourists and I don't know how to normalize the two groups for statistical purposes. My purely subjective view is that casual tourists behave differently than permanent residents who have lived here for some time and this is true in a number of different areas:

casual tourists don't make big ticket purchases such as cars, bikes and real estate, neither do they have an extended Thai family hence their close encounters with Thai's is restricted to hotel and restaurant staff and similar - the logic here being that most murders of Brits in Thailand are done by locals and money/relationships are the biggest causes for them.

As for where I want this thread to go: I don't have an agenda with this topic other than to arrive at a supportable answer based on fact showing how many Brits. are murdered Thailand each year. I think it would be good to know that to see if the daily bar stool rhetoric is supportable or whether there's a different answer and if so, what it might be.

[chiang mai]

Far too many deaths of foreigners in Thailand are called suicides.

Cases where people" fall" or " jump" of of balconies.

And even cases where people "hang themselves" with their hands tied behind their backs

It saves the police a lot of work and,,

It's only a farang, so who cares?

The balcony answer is not too difficult to answer:

In the UK the legal requirement for external balcony railing height is 1.1 metre from datum to handrail. (which means the railing is just above my belly button and the bulk of my body is below the railing) - at 1.1 metres I cannot lean over far enough to move my centre of balance far enough to cause my body to topple over the railing.

In older Thai construction (and new) there appears to be no such regulation, instead the railing height seems to be proportionate to the height of a shorter Asian rather than a (typically taller and heavier) Westerner. This is probably one of the last things in the world the vacationing foreigner thinks about, literally, as he steps out onto a balcony to enjoy the air and the view, jet lagged, intoxicated, tired or even sober and wide awake. Ergo, the centre of balance can shift very easily to where the person tips over the rail.

http://www.balconette.co.uk/articles/Railing-balustrade-requirements.aspx

It would be interesting to know how many balcony fallers were smokers, my guess is the majority, people who have gone outside to smoke (because they are not allowed to smoke in the room), perhaps after alcohol.

Edited March 14, 2016 by chiang mai

[chiang mai]

Murder or not, it would be interesting to know the number of British deaths in Thailand compared to other nationalities.

May the Brits just get all f the press, but it seems we hear about their deaths more often than others.

That's where I'm trying to get to with all of this. I put the perception of high death rates down to the tabloid newspaper who know that dramatized stories about death in Thailand, sells newspapers.

[JLCrab]

From a Daily Mail article on the NOV 2014 publication of Mr. Stapleton's book that was referenced on the previous page on BBC FOIA request:

Asked why he decided to write the book, Stapleton told the MailOnline: ‘At the beginning of 2010, uncertain of what to do next after leaving full-time journalism, I decided to head to Thailand, which I remembered fondly from previous visits.

‘It only came to me slowly, after having my drinks repeatedly spiked, being robbed, bashed and having my passport stolen, that Thailand was not quite The Land of Smiles that I had once thought it to be.

www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-2833369/Thailand-one-dangerous-tourist-destinations-Earth-Ex-pat-investigation-lifts-lid-dark-Land-Smiles.html

Sounds like the guy was a one-man walking disaster zone.

Edited March 14, 2016 by JLCrab

[NeverSure]

British deaths overseas in 2013-2014, as compiled by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. Thailand is the second most dangerous place, after Spain. (Source cited below.)

Spain - 856

USA - 125

Thailand - 362

France - 346

Greece - 160

United Arab Emirates - 75

Cyprus - 157

Australia - 72

India - 89

Germany - 146

Turkey - 75

China - 66

Philippines - 82

Pakistan - 21

Portugal - 131

Egypt - 49

Canada - 32

Switzerland - 173

Italy - 45

Jamaica - 23

Source: FCO

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3086453/The-country-highest-proportion-British-deaths-Philippines-cost-17-000-repatriate-body.html#ixzz42pRl0Vqc

Most dangerous? What nonsense! The high figures for Spain, Thailand and France simply reflect the fact that these are favourite retirement destinations.

I agree. For instance the US has the 2nd highest number of tourists in the world after France. These statistics need to be "per 100,000 visitors" or similar to have any meaning at all regarding danger.

Link

[chiang mai]

Pulled the following 'statistics' from the OP and subsequent posts.

Less than 5 Brits have been murdered out of 362 Brit deaths out of approximately 2.7 million Brit visitors.

Perspective anyone?

I need to come back to this one again:

If we assume average holiday duration here is 7 days, 2.7 million visits translates into 7,418 full time equivalents who are here year round, (2.7 mill. / 7 /52), plus 50,000 resident expats = 57,418 British full time resident equivelents.

So if we change your statement to read, less than 5 Brits have been murdered out of 362 British deaths out of a total of British 57,418 resident equivalents, how does that change the perspective.

Using Andy Pearce's comment that British resident expats endure a murder rate of 5 per 100k, that still leaves the total number under 5.

You can tweak the holiday duration as you wish but it doesn't change the answer in a meaningful way, even if you double or triple it.

[Tolley]

I am not sure why the OP decided to start this topic but it really is a no brainer.

Thailand is a dangerous unstable country run by a tin pot military dictatorship.

It has poor infrastructure and high levels of corruption coupled with a very high murder rate and shockingly high road toll.

I don't think you have to be a rocket scientist to work out that any tourist coming form a western country is going to be a much higher risk of death by injury, murder, misadventure etc in Thailand than they would if they travelled to other western countries.

As for the true murder rate who really knows? Fact is per capita for both Aussies and Brits Thailand is the most dangerous country to visit. If you want to dig around thai visa you will find threads on this topic with the relevant stats.

[chiang mai]

I am not sure why the OP decided to start this topic but it really is a no brainer.

Thailand is a dangerous unstable country run by a tin pot military dictatorship.

It has poor infrastructure and high levels of corruption coupled with a very high murder rate and shockingly high road toll.

I don't think you have to be a rocket scientist to work out that any tourist coming form a western country is going to be a much higher risk of death by injury, murder, misadventure etc in Thailand than they would if they travelled to other western countries.

As for the true murder rate who really knows? Fact is per capita for both Aussies and Brits Thailand is the most dangerous country to visit. If you want to dig around thai visa you will find threads on this topic with the relevant stats.

"I am not sure why the OP decided to start this topic but it really is a no brainer".

As stated several times, the objective of the thread is to better understand a more factual rate of deaths by murder of British subjects in Thailand.

"a much higher risk of death by injury, murder, misadventure etc".

Not by murder it's not, the facts are beginning to more clearly say this is not the case.

You say it's a no brainer but actually it is, if you want to know the true picture it is, but if you want to just believe the Sun and the chatter then of course, anything is simple.

I do agree with you however on the shockingly high road death toll.

[Tolley]

I am not sure why the OP decided to start this topic but it really is a no brainer.

Thailand is a dangerous unstable country run by a tin pot military dictatorship.

It has poor infrastructure and high levels of corruption coupled with a very high murder rate and shockingly high road toll.

I don't think you have to be a rocket scientist to work out that any tourist coming form a western country is going to be a much higher risk of death by injury, murder, misadventure etc in Thailand than they would if they travelled to other western countries.

As for the true murder rate who really knows? Fact is per capita for both Aussies and Brits Thailand is the most dangerous country to visit. If you want to dig around thai visa you will find threads on this topic with the relevant stats.

"I am not sure why the OP decided to start this topic but it really is a no brainer".

As stated several times, the objective of the thread is to better understand a more factual rate of deaths by murder of British subjects in Thailand.

"a much higher risk of death by injury, murder, misadventure etc".

Not by murder it's not, the facts are beginning to more clearly say this is not the case.

You say it's a no brainer but actually it is, if you want to know the true picture it is, but if you want to just believe the Sun and the chatter then of course, anything is simple.

I do agree with you however on the shockingly high road death toll.

Well we don't really know and probably will never know what the true murder rate is for tourists because they are covered up by sloppy policing and a desire to shy away from any news that my affect tourists numbers.

In the end it doesn't matter if you are tourist who is murdered, killed in a accident or dies by other some form of misadventure in Thailand you are still dead.

Further to this Thailand is still a violent dangerous country in comparison to most of our home countries. It has a very high murder rate from firearms.

[MaeJoMTB]

Murder or not, it would be interesting to know the number of British deaths in Thailand compared to other nationalities.

May the Brits just get all f the press, but it seems we hear about their deaths more often than others.

Australia has the same death statistics in Thailand,

But more visitors from Oz, so more deaths.

One of the most dangerous places in the world for Australians.

[Bernard Flint]

Many murders commited in Thailand are classed as unexplained or foul play not suspected.

SAYS WHO???? YOU?????