Why Europe has a bigger terror problem than the U.S.

[DM07]

Are you both from the former DDR ? It is entirely possible that the news never made it over to the East.

There are some good articles in Der Spiegel, I would suggest that you start your research there.

Hamburg, buddy!

Which is pretty West- Germany!

How about you provide the articles, because you made the claims?

I grew up in the 80's and I really recall many major political issues...none of them related to Turkish- people!

[DM07]

Europe does not even look like Europe in many places in many of their countries. I have seen

pictures of Cities where it seems you are somewhere in the Middle East. Arabic signs for blocks.

Mosques and minarets in many places waking up all who are near them very early in the

mornings. Large areas where the people barely speak the language of the country they are living in.

I think Germany will look like this in the not too distant future. I could be wrong as they have survived

the Nazis of their past, hopefully they can survive the latest of their problems. Good luck.

I have friends from Britain who have moved away because their whole neighbourhoods have been taken over.

I just hope that Canada and the USA does not let the Middle East take over our countries.

I am not sure where I could move if that ever happened.

This is just my opinion of course

Geezer

Yep, it is only your personal opinion...and it is BS!

Care to explain Chinatown to me?

[sawadee1947]

It's an interesting area to look at.

With immigration issues, whether it is regular immigrants or refugees, the focus has to be on integration into the existing culture. Without integration there is disintegration. New immigrants should not be allowed in unless there family is able to show the means of support for them. Refugees need to be resettled in an orderly fashion and they need to be working rather quickly as well as attending classes to help with the integration process.

It's fairly important that large ghetto type areas not be allowed to exist for any length of time.

I should also be noted that the problems in Belgium and France don't seem to be happening in Germany either, I wonder why that is?

You nailed it.

[stillbornagain]

Great, you just invited them all. USA is just lucky that the Mexicans are too lazy to fight.

They're not lazy. They work like dogs in jobs I wouldn't want to do. Biggest difference is they are Catholic and not as likely to feel they are required by directives of their holy book to murder people

Catholics. Just like the IRA

...and the Bible told them so?

Well, you could actually read the Bible. Just Leviticus if you want to read some vicious and nasty stuff. However, the best way to judge a religion is not by its texts but by its history. And for most of its history Islam was, on average, far more tolerant of Jews and Christians than Christians were of Jews and Moslems. But then God saw fit to give virtually unlimited amounts of petroleum to a backwater nation, Saudi Arabia, that subscribed to the tenets of a tiny and extreme sect of Islam. It used and still uses a lot of that money to proselytize it's vicious version of Islam around the world. Really, its ideology isn't much different from ISIS's. And this country is now our ally.

[jesimps]

Europeans have wide open-mindedness while bigot USA has a closed one?

I bet the spams would rather be bigots than dead. Shame us Europeans weren't the same, there'd be less of us kicking up the daisies.

Anyway, 'bigot' is just a word used by lefties to close an arguement.

[SgtRock]

Are you both from the former DDR ? It is entirely possible that the news never made it over to the East.

There are some good articles in Der Spiegel, I would suggest that you start your research there.

Hamburg, buddy!

Which is pretty West- Germany!

How about you provide the articles, because you made the claims?

I grew up in the 80's and I really recall many major political issues...none of them related to Turkish- people!

I provided you with a point of reference, you can do your own research.

Hamburg. Although it is off topic, I guess you never came across any of the market stalls selling IRA paraphernalia either.

It truly is remarkable what people fail to see.

[Steely Dan]

Great, you just invited them all. USA is just lucky that the Mexicans are too lazy to fight.

They're not lazy. They work like dogs in jobs I wouldn't want to do. Biggest difference is they are Catholic and not as likely to feel they are required by directives of their holy book to murder people

Catholics. Just like the IRA

...and the Bible told them so?

Well, you could actually read the Bible. Just Leviticus if you want to read some vicious and nasty stuff. However, the best way to judge a religion is not by its texts but by its history. And for most of its history Islam was, on average, far more tolerant of Jews and Christians than Christians were of Jews and Moslems. But then God saw fit to give virtually unlimited amounts of petroleum to a backwater nation, Saudi Arabia, that subscribed to the tenets of a tiny and extreme sect of Islam. It used and still uses a lot of that money to proselytize it's vicious version of Islam around the world. Really, its ideology isn't much different from ISIS's. And this country is now our ally.

By some estimates Islam caused the deaths of 270million people throughout its history. Tamerlain alone instigated the deaths of 5% of the world population of his time. 75 Million Hindus were killed in India, the rivers ran red with their blood for days from historical accounts. Then we have the slave raids resulting in more slaves from Africa going east than West. A million slaves went from Europe. Settlements on the Mediterranean coast were abandoned and people moved as much as 20 miles inland to escape them. Not even touched yet on the genocides of the Balkans by the Ottoman Turks.

Even the crusades were only in response to hundreds of years of raping and pillaging by the Moors. The Saudis are not a one off, merely a continuation of the vile norm which temporarily went into remission when European colonialists had no compunction in crushing it.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Steely Dan

[TheCruncher]

Now let me think, who started all this.

I will make it easy for you, Sadam, Ghadafi .............

I'll help you think. Tony Blair went after Saddam and NATO led by the French went after Gaddafi.

(Not only can I help you remember history but I can spell, too.)

Yeah it was Tony Blair, and spelling police is not welcomed on this forum.

http://www.democracynow.org/2006/8/22/president_bush_admits_iraq_had_no

President Bush Admits Iraq Had No WMDs and 'Nothing' to Do With 9/11

[jesimps]

Europe...no unity, no cooperation, heaps of arms and explosives, thanks to differing levels of laxness at borders...dumping ground for mostly hopeless useless unskilled and disaffected muzzlim men....

Yes you could say its a basket case.

Don't forget left-wing.

[stillbornagain]

Great, you just invited them all. USA is just lucky that the Mexicans are too lazy to fight.

They're not lazy. They work like dogs in jobs I wouldn't want to do. Biggest difference is they are Catholic and not as likely to feel they are required by directives of their holy book to murder people

Catholics. Just like the IRA

...and the Bible told them so?

Well, you could actually read the Bible. Just Leviticus if you want to read some vicious and nasty stuff. However, the best way to judge a religion is not by its texts but by its history. And for most of its history Islam was, on average, far more tolerant of Jews and Christians than Christians were of Jews and Moslems. But then God saw fit to give virtually unlimited amounts of petroleum to a backwater nation, Saudi Arabia, that subscribed to the tenets of a tiny and extreme sect of Islam. It used and still uses a lot of that money to proselytize it's vicious version of Islam around the world. Really, its ideology isn't much different from ISIS's. And this country is now our ally.

By some estimates Islam caused the deaths of 270million people throughout its history. Tamerlain alone instigated the deaths of 5% of the world population of his time. 75 Million Hindus were killed in India, the rivers ran red with their blood for days from historical accounts. Then we have the slave raids resulting in more slaves from Africa going east than West. A million slaves went from Europe. Settlements on the Mediterranean coast were abandoned and people moved as much as 20 miles inland to escape them. Not even touched yet on the genocides of the Balkans by the Ottoman Turks.

Even the crusades were only in response to hundreds of years of raping and pillaging by the Moors. The Saudis are not a one off, merely a continuation of the vile norm which temporarily went into remission when European colonialists had no compunction in crushing it.

"By some estimates Islam caused the death of 270 million people around the world." It seems that the source of this dubious number is Pamela Geller! Anyone who doesn't know who Pamela Geller is should look her up. Here is a definitive takedown of that ridiculous number: http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/39361_Fact-Checking_Pamela_Geller-_270_Million_Victims_of_Islam

Yes, lots of Africans died as a result of the slave trade. And the slave traders were Moslems. But they weren't doing it in the name of Islam any more than the Christian purchasers of slaves were doing it in the name of Christianity. It was just business. Murderous business, but business nonetheless. In fact, apologists for Western slavery still claim as one of its virtues is that it led to large numbers of ex-Africans becoming Christian. As for Tamerlane, he attacked Hindus, Buddhists and Moslems alike. He wasn't invading out of a desire to propagate Islam. Nor does any reputable historian claim that. His was just one of many Mongol armies that created havoc in Asia. His just happened to be Muslim. It was a non-Muslim Mongol army that destroyed Baghdad, heart of one of the 2 most advanced civilizations of that time.

As for genocide in the Balkans? Really? If that is the case why are the Balkans still predominantly Christian? In fact, the Ottomans were overwhelmingly very tolerant of Christians and Jews. In Bulgaria, where the Jews were allowed to own land and farm (unlike in European nations), they pretty much blended into the general population.The majority of residents in Constantinople the capital of the Ottoman empire, was composed of Jews and Christians. Yes, when the residents of the Balkans revolted against Ottoman rule in the 19th century, they were suppressed with great brutality. But they weren't butchered because they were Christians. They were butchered because they were trying to overthrow the government.

The thing is, just because a nation is predominantly Muslim, doesn't mean that atrocities are committed because of that religion. How many 10's of millions of people were killed in WW1 and WW2 by nations that were predominantly Christian? And what about the 100 years' War between Protestants and Catholics. Or the slaughter of millions of native Americans by Conquistadors a who claimed to come in the name of Christianity? Not to mention northern European protestants who did their share of damage as well.

Finally, if anyone really wants an honest evaluation of what life was like for Jews, and to some extent Christians, under Islam, the go-to book is by Bernard Lewis. It's called the Jews of Islam. The author is himself Jewish and an ardent supporter of Israel and severe critic of the Palestinians. According to him, things could be bad for Jews in Islamic nations, but, on average, not nearly as bad as under Christian rule. And things could also be very, very good for Jews under Islam which they virtually never were in Christendom until the Catholic Church was well into its decline.

[Humberstone]

The whole question is a bit ridiculous. Europe, by its very history, is bound to be more susceptible to terrorism than somewhere like the USA.

The modern Europe of many nation states with artificial borders is a very recent thing. The modern nation state with all its trappings also doesn't mask the very many festering grievances within, be they racial, religious, separatist, political etc.

[Yunla]

​I watched a BBC interview with the French philosopher Bernard-Henri Levy this week, in which he said [paraphrased] "ISIS are not committing Genocide, they are committing Metrocide."

I have disagreed with this gentleman on several issues in the past, but he is spot on with this Metrocide analysis. ISIS are attacking cities, and what modern cities embody. They are turning inhabitants of a given city against eachother, turning it from a modern place of equality, industry and business, into basically a caveman-era place of might-is-right, where the biggest caveman wielding the largest cudgel is the only person with any rights at all.

ISIS are killing people of all faiths, not Jews or Christians specifically. Attacks are often on cities. Cities represent civilisation, education, civility, gentrification, women's rights, workers' rights, individuals' rights. What we know as civilised modern society was born in cities. ISIS have destroyed cities across the Middle East, even ancient ruined cities. It is a war on the cosmopolitan values, embodied by cities, ergo Metrocide.

In more barbaric times, before the arrival of cities, the world was ruled by the might-is-right culture. Women had no rights, physically weak men had no rights, disabled persons had no rights. All rights belonged to the strongest men. This is the opposite of the modern city, where a woman can own her own home, have a good job, choose her partners etc. In the modern city, a small weak man can become incredibly wealthy and successful by working hard and using his mind and skills. This is the opposite of the barbarian times, where such men lived in fear, and were ruled over by the biggest brutes.

I liked the term Metrocide, and the thinking behind it. This is not a war between religions, it is a war between barbarism and civilisation. And so on the OP title, I believe that Europe, the US, the Middle East, Africa, anywhere that you find a modern city with cosmopolitan values and enshrining the rights of the individual, these are all targets for ISIS and similar groups.

The EU is more vulnerable, because it has 30,000 Eurocrats getting paid a fortune to send each other memos and spend years discussing what the legal size of a tomato should be. This has led to failures in wider society, failures in employment, policing, housing, causing areas with ghetto poverty and unemployment, which are not isolated to Muslim groups, this poverty in the EU is common to all races. The EU is shackled by its own Eurocracy, and incapable of responding swiftly or even recognising problems. There are memos to be sent, conventions held, and celebratory banquets. This macro-corruption and quantum-level compartmentalisation is all clearly on display to anyone who wishes to attack the EU.

[stillbornagain]

One of the blocks to understanding why Europe is more susceptible to Islamic terrorism is linguistic. Many people believe that there is a continent called Asia, and another called Europe. It's just one contiguous continent called Eurasia. And North Africa is also contiguous with Asia minor. So, in effect you have one contiguous land mass. Which makes it a lot easier to get around than crossing an ocean.

[stillbornagain]

I would just like one ammosexual to tell us a tale where a 'good guy with a gun' actually saved the day in real life (and not on TV or in your wet dreams).

It happens every day. The MSM just doesn't like to report it. Here's just one article from The Daily Caller.

OR:

"The latest independent crime victims polls estimate that 512,000 rapes occur each year, 1,400 a day, and just under 17% are reported to the police. That agrees with the FBI numbers, so I will go with 512,000 rapes, with 17% or one in six reported to the police.

With the magnitude of the problem established:

In the early 1990′s a study concluded that 650 rapes a day were stopped because the victim was – or may have been – armed. But the number of women who carry, and the number of homes with guns, is much higher now."

MORE

I rarely go anywhere without a gun now, dude. <deleted> Muslims threaten me? "No go zones?" Ain't happening in my part of America. Ain't likely to anytime soon, either.

Cheers.

Have you ever heard of "innumeracy" "Innumeracy" is a word coined by a mathematician as a counterpart to "illiteracy." Here's a way to think about it. Did you know that in 2015 more U.S. citizens were killed by toddlers than by terrorists? If you don't believe me just look it up at snopes.com http://www.snopes.com/toddlers-killed-americans-terrorists/

To be fair, the toddlers mostly killed themselves although recently one did manage to shoot his mother in the back. But no one is going to run around in fear of toddlers. Because the image of toddlers isn't threatening whereas the images of terrorist attacks are.But the fact is, if you live in Europe or the USA your odds of being killed by a terrorist are vanishingly small. So all the angry talk and promises to kill terrorists of some here with the guns you keep by your side, are nothing more than snarls set to words. You are in far, far, far more danger of dying in an automobile crash, whether you live in Europe or the USA, than you are of dying at the hands of a terrorist. So maybe you angry inchoate thinkers should take your guns and discharge the bullets into an engine block or 2. You'll be a lot more likely to save a life that way.

[DM07]

Are you both from the former DDR ? It is entirely possible that the news never made it over to the East.

There are some good articles in Der Spiegel, I would suggest that you start your research there.

Hamburg, buddy!

Which is pretty West- Germany!

How about you provide the articles, because you made the claims?

I grew up in the 80's and I really recall many major political issues...none of them related to Turkish- people!

I provided you with a point of reference, you can do your own research.

Hamburg. Although it is off topic, I guess you never came across any of the market stalls selling IRA paraphernalia either.

It truly is remarkable what people fail to see.

IRA? What do have to do with all of this?

So you start out with some vague reference to Turks...in Germany...in the 80's...something...

Then you are not able to back up your claims and now you are talking about the IRA?

BTW: I don't need your "point of reference", because I think- quiet frankly- it is a bunch of BS anyways!

So: thanks for the intelligent exchange!

[SgtRock]

Are you both from the former DDR ? It is entirely possible that the news never made it over to the East.

There are some good articles in Der Spiegel, I would suggest that you start your research there.

Hamburg, buddy!

Which is pretty West- Germany!

How about you provide the articles, because you made the claims?

I grew up in the 80's and I really recall many major political issues...none of them related to Turkish- people!

I provided you with a point of reference, you can do your own research.

Hamburg. Although it is off topic, I guess you never came across any of the market stalls selling IRA paraphernalia either.

It truly is remarkable what people fail to see.

IRA? What do have to do with all of this?

So you start out with some vague reference to Turks...in Germany...in the 80's...something...

Then you are not able to back up your claims and now you are talking about the IRA?

BTW: I don't need your "point of reference", because I think- quiet frankly- it is a bunch of BS anyways!

So: thanks for the intelligent exchange!

If you are too lazy to reference Der Spiegel on your own.

Try this

https://www.google.co.th/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=Turks+riot+in+Germany&start=10

Take your pick from 1000's.

As I said. It is utterly remarkable how many people are blind.

[slerickson]

There seems to be a causal relationship between recognition of Palestine and a subsequent Israeli Secret Intelligence Service, aka ISIS attack.

[Usernames]

Great, you just invited them all. USA is just lucky that the Mexicans are too lazy to fight.

They're not lazy. They work like dogs in jobs I wouldn't want to do. Biggest difference is they are Catholic and not as likely to feel they are required by directives of their holy book to murder people

Unless they are members of the Gulf Cartel, the Zetas, or Sinaloa.

[Steely Dan]

​I watched a BBC interview with the French philosopher Bernard-Henri Levy this week, in which he said [paraphrased] "ISIS are not committing Genocide, they are committing Metrocide."

I have disagreed with this gentleman on several issues in the past, but he is spot on with this Metrocide analysis. ISIS are attacking cities, and what modern cities embody. They are turning inhabitants of a given city against eachother, turning it from a modern place of equality, industry and business, into basically a caveman-era place of might-is-right, where the biggest caveman wielding the largest cudgel is the only person with any rights at all.

ISIS are killing people of all faiths, not Jews or Christians specifically. Attacks are often on cities. Cities represent civilisation, education, civility, gentrification, women's rights, workers' rights, individuals' rights. What we know as civilised modern society was born in cities. ISIS have destroyed cities across the Middle East, even ancient ruined cities. It is a war on the cosmopolitan values, embodied by cities, ergo Metrocide.

In more barbaric times, before the arrival of cities, the world was ruled by the might-is-right culture. Women had no rights, physically weak men had no rights, disabled persons had no rights. All rights belonged to the strongest men. This is the opposite of the modern city, where a woman can own her own home, have a good job, choose her partners etc. In the modern city, a small weak man can become incredibly wealthy and successful by working hard and using his mind and skills. This is the opposite of the barbarian times, where such men lived in fear, and were ruled over by the biggest brutes.

I liked the term Metrocide, and the thinking behind it. This is not a war between religions, it is a war between barbarism and civilisation. And so on the OP title, I believe that Europe, the US, the Middle East, Africa, anywhere that you find a modern city with cosmopolitan values and enshrining the rights of the individual, these are all targets for ISIS and similar groups.

The EU is more vulnerable, because it has 30,000 Eurocrats getting paid a fortune to send each other memos and spend years discussing what the legal size of a tomato should be. This has led to failures in wider society, failures in employment, policing, housing, causing areas with ghetto poverty and unemployment, which are not isolated to Muslim groups, this poverty in the EU is common to all races. The EU is shackled by its own Eurocracy, and incapable of responding swiftly or even recognising problems. There are memos to be sent, conventions held, and celebratory banquets. This macro-corruption and quantum-level compartmentalisation is all clearly on display to anyone who wishes to attack the EU.

Hmmm, so Isis are anarchists and iconoclasts. Very little is new in heaven and earth, the Sphinx received its nose job from Egyptian Salafists way back, just as the Talban blew up the Buddha statues in Afghanistan. The EU shows the signs of nepotism, decay and runaway bureaucracy that afflicted Rome during its decline.

All of this 'Metrocide' idea casts Isis as generic barbarians, but I think it's not the law of the jungle,they desired but the highly codified sharia law in its purest form. I suspect most Muslims would agree with this, whether they approve or not is another question.

[DM07]

If you are too lazy to reference Der Spiegel on your own.

Try this

https://www.google.co.th/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=Turks+riot+in+Germany&start=10

Take your pick from 1000's.

As I said. It is utterly remarkable how many people are blind.

Yeah...or utterly stupid!

Did you even care to read the article (from 1993 by the way...how is that "the 80"s? The following 20 are from 2014, 15 or 16...mostly related to ...oh, why do I even bother...)?

They reacted to a right-wingers firebomb attack, that the article calls "the deadliest anti-foreigner attack since unification"!

Nice try!

[stillbornagain]

​I watched a BBC interview with the French philosopher Bernard-Henri Levy this week, in which he said [paraphrased] "ISIS are not committing Genocide, they are committing Metrocide."

I have disagreed with this gentleman on several issues in the past, but he is spot on with this Metrocide analysis. ISIS are attacking cities, and what modern cities embody. They are turning inhabitants of a given city against eachother, turning it from a modern place of equality, industry and business, into basically a caveman-era place of might-is-right, where the biggest caveman wielding the largest cudgel is the only person with any rights at all.

ISIS are killing people of all faiths, not Jews or Christians specifically. Attacks are often on cities. Cities represent civilisation, education, civility, gentrification, women's rights, workers' rights, individuals' rights. What we know as civilised modern society was born in cities. ISIS have destroyed cities across the Middle East, even ancient ruined cities. It is a war on the cosmopolitan values, embodied by cities, ergo Metrocide.

In more barbaric times, before the arrival of cities, the world was ruled by the might-is-right culture. Women had no rights, physically weak men had no rights, disabled persons had no rights. All rights belonged to the strongest men. This is the opposite of the modern city, where a woman can own her own home, have a good job, choose her partners etc. In the modern city, a small weak man can become incredibly wealthy and successful by working hard and using his mind and skills. This is the opposite of the barbarian times, where such men lived in fear, and were ruled over by the biggest brutes.

I liked the term Metrocide, and the thinking behind it. This is not a war between religions, it is a war between barbarism and civilisation. And so on the OP title, I believe that Europe, the US, the Middle East, Africa, anywhere that you find a modern city with cosmopolitan values and enshrining the rights of the individual, these are all targets for ISIS and similar groups.

The EU is more vulnerable, because it has 30,000 Eurocrats getting paid a fortune to send each other memos and spend years discussing what the legal size of a tomato should be. This has led to failures in wider society, failures in employment, policing, housing, causing areas with ghetto poverty and unemployment, which are not isolated to Muslim groups, this poverty in the EU is common to all races. The EU is shackled by its own Eurocracy, and incapable of responding swiftly or even recognising problems. There are memos to be sent, conventions held, and celebratory banquets. This macro-corruption and quantum-level compartmentalisation is all clearly on display to anyone who wishes to attack the EU.

Hmmm, so Isis are anarchists and iconoclasts. Very little is new in heaven and earth, the Sphinx received its nose job from Egyptian Salafists way back, just as the Talban blew up the Buddha statues in Afghanistan. The EU shows the signs of nepotism, decay and runaway bureaucracy that afflicted Rome during its decline.

All of this 'Metrocide' idea casts Isis as generic barbarians, but I think it's not the law of the jungle,they desired but the highly codified sharia law in its purest form. I suspect most Muslims would agree with this, whether they approve or not is another question.

No, what it corresponds closely to is your idea of Sharia in its purest form. In other words, a caricature of Sharia. You are the person who cited figures promulgated by Pamela Geller, a genuine loon, as authoritative. Anybody who wants to get a sample of Steely Dan's "scholarship" just go to #70 in this thread.

[Yunla]

Hmmm, so Isis are anarchists and iconoclasts. Very little is new in heaven and earth, the Sphinx received its nose job from Egyptian Salafists way back, just as the Talban blew up the Buddha statues in Afghanistan. The EU shows the signs of nepotism, decay and runaway bureaucracy that afflicted Rome during its decline.

All of this 'Metrocide' idea casts Isis as generic barbarians, but I think it's not the law of the jungle,they desired but the highly codified sharia law in its purest form. I suspect most Muslims would agree with this, whether they approve or not is another question.

I'm not sure that ISIS and similar groups are big on philosophy, I doubt they would consider the ideas I was talking about as a reason for their actions. But they are certainly committing acts of pure hatred, and so much hatred is subconscious, it is a deep-rooted resentment that is rarely articulated in philosophical statements of intent.

This is hatred for cities where women are political leaders and business bosses, children are allowed to run around free to choose their own destiny, and LGBT people are allowed to parade openly and demand equal rights. All of these things make ISIS thugs very angry. Because as you say, they follow the most hateful parts of their religion, amplify the violent texts, and ignore the long sections of poetry about how women are wonderful and should be cherished etc.

Many Muslims are intelligent enough to take their holy book in historical context, it was written in a by-the-sword era. They now work in modern cities, wear suits, and are friends with people from all religions and walks of life. So they can very easily ignore the crazy swordfighting stuff in their holy book, as they have never even seen a sword in their lives. In addition, there are Muslim scholars who are trying to broadcast this reformation / enlightenment view, that their holy book is filled with many beautiful things, and God is great, but that the swords and lopped off limbs belong to a different historical era. There is a strong movement of these scholars, and a slow but steady reformation taking place. It is obviously slowed down by the fact that people like ISIS will kill you if you advocate selective understanding of the relevance of a given text.

One of the most interesting things to emerge in recent years, was the reports told to journalists who were on the trail of ISIS, local people and former hostages were telling the reporters "ISIS had no Korans, they did not pray, they just shouted these same handful of violent phrases quoted from the book, but they were never actually seen carrying the book itself." If we add this to recent reports of the Brussels attacks, which were describing a trend of "petty criminals and gangsters turning to terrorism" as opposed to "deeply religious people turning to terrorism" we are facing the possibility that infact many of the ISIS people are not motivated by deep religious faith, unless they fancy a particularly gory phrase from a text, they are violent criminals who feel that terrorism allows them to engage in this violent crime on a bigger scale, and with greater adulation than they were previously getting for mugging old ladies etc.

[Steely Dan]

​I watched a BBC interview with the French philosopher Bernard-Henri Levy this week, in which he said [paraphrased] "ISIS are not committing Genocide, they are committing Metrocide."

I have disagreed with this gentleman on several issues in the past, but he is spot on with this Metrocide analysis. ISIS are attacking cities, and what modern cities embody. They are turning inhabitants of a given city against eachother, turning it from a modern place of equality, industry and business, into basically a caveman-era place of might-is-right, where the biggest caveman wielding the largest cudgel is the only person with any rights at all.

ISIS are killing people of all faiths, not Jews or Christians specifically. Attacks are often on cities. Cities represent civilisation, education, civility, gentrification, women's rights, workers' rights, individuals' rights. What we know as civilised modern society was born in cities. ISIS have destroyed cities across the Middle East, even ancient ruined cities. It is a war on the cosmopolitan values, embodied by cities, ergo Metrocide.

In more barbaric times, before the arrival of cities, the world was ruled by the might-is-right culture. Women had no rights, physically weak men had no rights, disabled persons had no rights. All rights belonged to the strongest men. This is the opposite of the modern city, where a woman can own her own home, have a good job, choose her partners etc. In the modern city, a small weak man can become incredibly wealthy and successful by working hard and using his mind and skills. This is the opposite of the barbarian times, where such men lived in fear, and were ruled over by the biggest brutes.

I liked the term Metrocide, and the thinking behind it. This is not a war between religions, it is a war between barbarism and civilisation. And so on the OP title, I believe that Europe, the US, the Middle East, Africa, anywhere that you find a modern city with cosmopolitan values and enshrining the rights of the individual, these are all targets for ISIS and similar groups.

The EU is more vulnerable, because it has 30,000 Eurocrats getting paid a fortune to send each other memos and spend years discussing what the legal size of a tomato should be. This has led to failures in wider society, failures in employment, policing, housing, causing areas with ghetto poverty and unemployment, which are not isolated to Muslim groups, this poverty in the EU is common to all races. The EU is shackled by its own Eurocracy, and incapable of responding swiftly or even recognising problems. There are memos to be sent, conventions held, and celebratory banquets. This macro-corruption and quantum-level compartmentalisation is all clearly on display to anyone who wishes to attack the EU.

Hmmm, so Isis are anarchists and iconoclasts. Very little is new in heaven and earth, the Sphinx received its nose job from Egyptian Salafists way back, just as the Talban blew up the Buddha statues in Afghanistan. The EU shows the signs of nepotism, decay and runaway bureaucracy that afflicted Rome during its decline.

All of this 'Metrocide' idea casts Isis as generic barbarians, but I think it's not the law of the jungle,they desired but the highly codified sharia law in its purest form. I suspect most Muslims would agree with this, whether they approve or not is another question.

No, what it corresponds closely to is your idea of Sharia in its purest form. In other words, a caricature of Sharia. You are the person who cited figures promulgated by Pamela Geller, a genuine loon, as authoritative. Anybody who wants to get a sample of Steely Dan's "scholarship" just go to #70 in this thread.

Not getting drawn into off topic bickering with you, save to say Glen Greenwald who you used to 'refute' Pamela Geller (who I didn't mention) was formerly of the right before he miraculously found the loony left, in doing so he hastily deleted sundry blog entries, which his new persona disagreed with. His conversion came about coinciding with his opposition to Vlaams Belang in Belgium and the Swedish democrats, both whom events have completely vindicated.

As for ideas of Sharia law, see below.

Incidentally in a poll 92% of Saudis thought Isis conformed to Islamic law,but what do they know compared to western liberals?

https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2014/08/24/92-of-saudis-believes-that-isis-conforms-to-the-values-of-islam-and-islamic-law-survey/

P.s source also in Arab newspaper before the source Nazis pounce.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Steely Dan

[Steely Dan]

Hmmm, so Isis are anarchists and iconoclasts. Very little is new in heaven and earth, the Sphinx received its nose job from Egyptian Salafists way back, just as the Talban blew up the Buddha statues in Afghanistan. The EU shows the signs of nepotism, decay and runaway bureaucracy that afflicted Rome during its decline.

All of this 'Metrocide' idea casts Isis as generic barbarians, but I think it's not the law of the jungle,they desired but the highly codified sharia law in its purest form. I suspect most Muslims would agree with this, whether they approve or not is another question.

I'm not sure that ISIS and similar groups are big on philosophy, I doubt they would consider the ideas I was talking about as a reason for their actions. But they are certainly committing acts of pure hatred, and so much hatred is subconscious, it is a deep-rooted resentment that is rarely articulated in philosophical statements of intent.

This is hatred for cities where women are political leaders and business bosses, children are allowed to run around free to choose their own destiny, and LGBT people are allowed to parade openly and demand equal rights. All of these things make ISIS thugs very angry. Because as you say, they follow the most hateful parts of their religion, amplify the violent texts, and ignore the long sections of poetry about how women are wonderful and should be cherished etc.

Many Muslims are intelligent enough to take their holy book in historical context, it was written in a by-the-sword era. They now work in modern cities, wear suits, and are friends with people from all religions and walks of life. So they can very easily ignore the crazy swordfighting stuff in their holy book, as they have never even seen a sword in their lives. In addition, there are Muslim scholars who are trying to broadcast this reformation / enlightenment view, that their holy book is filled with many beautiful things, and God is great, but that the swords and lopped off limbs belong to a different historical era. There is a strong movement of these scholars, and a slow but steady reformation taking place. It is obviously slowed down by the fact that people like ISIS will kill you if you advocate selective understanding of the relevance of a given text.

One of the most interesting things to emerge in recent years, was the reports told to journalists who were on the trail of ISIS, local people and former hostages were telling the reporters "ISIS had no Korans, they did not pray, they just shouted these same handful of violent phrases quoted from the book, but they were never actually seen carrying the book itself." If we add this to recent reports of the Brussels attacks, which were describing a trend of "petty criminals and gangsters turning to terrorism" as opposed to "deeply religious people turning to terrorism" we are facing the possibility that infact many of the ISIS people are not motivated by deep religious faith, unless they fancy a particularly gory phrase from a text, they are violent criminals who feel that terrorism allows them to engage in this violent crime on a bigger scale, and with greater adulation than they were previously getting for mugging old ladies etc.

Thanks for your reply, some of your points I agree with, others, such as the degree to which Islam has modernized I have my doubts about. I think I'd be drawn to far off topic to reply further here.

[Scott]

It's an interesting area to look at.

With immigration issues, whether it is regular immigrants or refugees, the focus has to be on integration into the existing culture. Without integration there is disintegration. New immigrants should not be allowed in unless there family is able to show the means of support for them. Refugees need to be resettled in an orderly fashion and they need to be working rather quickly as well as attending classes to help with the integration process.

It's fairly important that large ghetto type areas not be allowed to exist for any length of time.

I should also be noted that the problems in Belgium and France don't seem to be happening in Germany either, I wonder why that is?

my [uneducated] guess is that "our" Muslims, mainly Turks, are much more integrated, known as hard workers who participated in a several decades lasting economic boom which made many dreams come true. i remember a young Turk who studied with my son who surprised me during a light conversation with the latin phrase "ubi bene, ibi patria!"

unfortunately it seems the tide is changing when it concerns the younger generation.

I think that many of the Turks who migrated to Germany did so for work. Work or school is a great way to help people integrate, they learn the laws, the rules and the way the culture works.

[Grouse]

It's an interesting area to look at.

With immigration issues, whether it is regular immigrants or refugees, the focus has to be on integration into the existing culture. Without integration there is disintegration. New immigrants should not be allowed in unless there family is able to show the means of support for them. Refugees need to be resettled in an orderly fashion and they need to be working rather quickly as well as attending classes to help with the integration process.

It's fairly important that large ghetto type areas not be allowed to exist for any length of time.

I should also be noted that the problems in Belgium and France don't seem to be happening in Germany either, I wonder why that is?

Germany had very big problems through the 80's with Turkish immigrants.

Just because it is not reported does not mean it is not happening. It will start appearing in the press when the first attack occurs on German soil.

Well...I am from Germany!

Pray tell: what problems did Germany have?

Because I fail to remember!

I agree. No major problems with gastarbeiter ( except for the Kebab invasion)

Is the original post a trick question? Is the answer DISTANCE?

[guapo]

Europeans politicians are sub servants to USA and some are beginning to recognise that what should be happening is that Europe should place them in ships (to costly for planes) and send them all to America the land of the brave and free, initiate them on the second amendment arm them to the teeth and let them go rampant as per pay back for all the wars USA started in the Middle East

[SgtRock]

If you are too lazy to reference Der Spiegel on your own.

Try this

https://www.google.co.th/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=Turks+riot+in+Germany&start=10

Take your pick from 1000's.

As I said. It is utterly remarkable how many people are blind.

Yeah...or utterly stupid!

Did you even care to read the article (from 1993 by the way...how is that "the 80"s? The following 20 are from 2014, 15 or 16...mostly related to ...oh, why do I even bother...)?

They reacted to a right-wingers firebomb attack, that the article calls "the deadliest anti-foreigner attack since unification"!

Nice try!

I am not German. It might be better to look in the German Language.

At a guess, I would say it had something to do with these laws that were introduced in the early 80's

Dec 1981.

West German law prohibits children over the age of 16 from joining their parents in Germany. Younger children who have at least one parent in the home country also may not immigrate to Germany.

Nov 1983

A new law for the Promotion of Readiness to Return (Das Gesetz zur Förderung der Rückkehrbereitschaft) offers jobless guest workers 10,500 DM to return to their country of origin. Only 13,000 individuals make use of this option.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turks_in_Germany

Not that I should use Wiki as a source, but my German is not good enough to use German language articles. This might not have been cause of the trouble that I witnessed, but that does not detract from what I seen with my own eyes.

[SgtRock]

Mississippi woman pleads guilty to supporting Islamic State

Good catch.

A Mississippi woman has pleaded guilty to charges that she tried to join the so-called Islamic State militant group in Syria.

US authorities said Jaelyn Young, a 20-year-old newlywed, sought to disguise her trip to Syria as her honeymoon.

Her fiance, Muhammad Dakhlalla, 22, pleaded guilty to similar charges earlier this month.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35922871

Some people pick strange things to do for a honeymoon

[DM07]

If you are too lazy to reference Der Spiegel on your own.

Try this

https://www.google.co.th/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=Turks+riot+in+Germany&start=10

Take your pick from 1000's.

As I said. It is utterly remarkable how many people are blind.

Yeah...or utterly stupid!

Did you even care to read the article (from 1993 by the way...how is that "the 80"s? The following 20 are from 2014, 15 or 16...mostly related to ...oh, why do I even bother...)?

They reacted to a right-wingers firebomb attack, that the article calls "the deadliest anti-foreigner attack since unification"!

Nice try!

I am not German. It might be better to look in the German Language.

At a guess, I would say it had something to do with these laws that were introduced in the early 80's

Dec 1981.

West German law prohibits children over the age of 16 from joining their parents in Germany. Younger children who have at least one parent in the home country also may not immigrate to Germany.

Nov 1983

A new law for the Promotion of Readiness to Return (Das Gesetz zur Förderung der Rückkehrbereitschaft) offers jobless guest workers 10,500 DM to return to their country of origin. Only 13,000 individuals make use of this option.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turks_in_Germany

Not that I should use Wiki as a source, but my German is not good enough to use German language articles. This might not have been cause of the trouble that I witnessed, but that does not detract from what I seen with my own eyes.

Aaaaaaah...Wiki and some eyewitness testimony "I have seen something, that looked like something, therefore...Turkish people making problems in Germany!"

Aside from the fact, that the OP is about "terrorism" and not some innerpolitical struggle with one or the other minority: I have seen a lot of things in my time in Germany, too!

Believe me: problems with Turkish "Gastarbeiter" did never occur on a scale, that was anywhere near problematic!