7 Year Overstay Cleared

[brainfart]

If you are arrested, or imprisoned, or deported and banned you cannot take care of anybody,

Staying legal is number one in my book.

Even if it means going without for a while so you have enough money for visas, extensions, border runs.

I am of no use to my Wife in prison or getting kicked out of the country.

I don't overstay but does anyone know or heard about a farang with a Thai family being imprisoned and/or deported because of overstay???

I am just curious about this.

No, I haven't either. It will be interesting to see whether the 1-10 year bans will be able to be enforced against "farang familymen" as you have indicated. Perhaps they may be initially, but if challenged in the Human Rights court, they might have to reconsider.

There's just too much to have to read into an accurate interpretation of how the new laws are to be administered, but I am of the opinion that the main emphasis is to protect the country against "bad guys" (such as those with criminal intent), and not to punish the families of farang overstayers,.. which is precisely the effect that such broad enforcement of the new ban laws would create.

Which "Human Rights Court " would you suggest a decision to ban an overstayer be challenged in ?

Why,... are you expecting you might need to make an appeal at sometime in the future?

Thankfully,... I will not have to worry about taking any such complaint or case to the Human Rights Commission, and therefore I haven't had the need and nor shall I have the need to perform such research and enable such a process.

That of course doesn't change a thing as far as Thailand's treaty to International Human Rights Law is concerned.

There is a branch of the Thai Judiciary where Judges have undergone specific training in this regard (I know this for a fact, having met with members of the judiciary that underwent such training),.. and as such, I believe that Thailand and the Thai Judiciary take Human Rights matter seriously enough to have set up mechanisms that will address such issues as they may arise. That probably isn't an ideal, or even a very efficient mechanism or system, but it does exist.

IMHO,.. if a banned overstayer was to make an application to the Human Rights Commission for relief, I expect that the process might take at least 1 to 3 years to see the light of day,.. in which time the current ban system might have already received an overhaul.

I had no interest in becoming a watershed crusader for any human rights appeals to the current ban laws, but, in principle I would say that they are more than challenge-able given the current possibility of them being applied to the types of "farang familymen" that the previous poster made reference to!

[Merylhighground]

Bear in mind, that for the most part,.. and certainly in the first several years of overstay, I had zero funds to even buy a ticket out of the country,.. let alone pay an overstay fine. I'm afraid it would have been a matter of >> Arrest >> IDC >> Court >> IDC (for goodness knows how long) >> Deportation under duress,.. had I been caught. And that had about the same appeal as a hole in the head!

Both of the guys I knew on lengthy over stays were similar.

One was old and had a morbid fear of, and incompetence of dealing with bureaucracy and had got himself in a real mess visa wise.

It wasn't until our own departures were confirmed that my wife and I decided that something had to be done to help solve his problem so we took him in hand, arranged an ETD from the UK embassy in Bangkok for him, found him an inexpensive flight back to the UK, loaned him enough to clear his fine (since repaid in full). He cleared all a couple of days before we left, with no mention of a ban, a little (expected) 'yak yak' from the officials and is due to return to Thailand this week with a nice shiny multi- entry Non Immi O in place, his pension/income/savings all sorted out by his son, so hopefully all should be fine and easy for him.

The other was younger and an intelligent guy but had let things 'get on top of him' visa wise and he would sometimes be in a constant state of fear. The mere (and common) sight of a copper coming in to one of our old locals would be enough to get him in a real state, so much so, sometimes he'd even slip off home, no matter how convivial an evening we were having. Not a nice state of existence to be in for anyone. He cleared out last year and has since returned with no problems.

Brainfart, thanks for your posts.

It is nice to see someone so refreshingly honest and open about their 'misdemeanours' here even if they have to put up with the usual brainless flack.....

[brainfart]

You are talking about a tiny minority of overstayers and I'm sure most TV members are sympathetic to those genuinely in dire straits. But note that the OP admits to having 1/2 opportunities to clear his overstay but chose not to. His 3rd paragraph basically confirms that he only cleared the overstay because of the bans.

Your summation is only partially correct. A revision of my OP would clarify the fact that I had a genuine reason to leave the country which coincided with the bans. Perhaps having an 85 year old dying father in Australia isn't a genuine enough reason to want to leave, and yet the bans were?

The original conditions under which I was forced to overstay would probably be too horrific and unimaginable for you to entertain,.. and with respect, are none of anyone's business but my own. I am grateful at least for having been able to pull through them with my sanity, health, marriage and family still in tact! For the record,.. living under the threat of arrest, detention and deportation was no day at the beach, and is something that I am very relieved to have put behind me.

I can assure you, that under the circumstances, the bans were the least of my worries, although I acknowledge they were certainly a concerning factor, despite the fact that I am of the personal opinion that once put under the full scrutiny of Human Rights Law, it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible for any Human Rights treaty country to enforce bans of 1-10 years on men that have Thai wives, Thai children, Thai families, and homes in Thailand, and who have not committed any crime (i.e. caused no harm, injury, loss or suffering to any man/woman), and who's only offence is a breach of an immigration code.

I personally didn't feel like going on a crusade to prove such a point,.. and I'm not sure that it will come to that before the threats of these "lifetime" bans will be either removed or replaced by something that is far more relevant. Perhaps a fine system whereby the 20,000 fine renews and aggregates on a yearly basis? Who knows,.. but, my prediction is that the current ban proposals will not prevail very long into the future.

Please be clear that I'm not condoning overstaying, nor excusing my own overstay under special privileges. I am simply saying that the current system (including the new ban proposals) is in need of a more relevant and sensible approach for it to be considered tenable.

I am sorry to read of your father, but based on your posts I do not believe you would have continued on overstay past March 20th. You would have found a way, like many others, to get legal before the bans kicked in and threatened the separation of your family.

An interesting point regarding human rights but I don't share your opinion. It is against the law to overstay, which makes it a crime regardless of a victim.

Immigration have wanted overstay bans for well over 5 years so I don't seeing the new rules going/changing anytime soon. I believe the bans are the right way to deal with the problem and very relevant.

Thank you for your kind words about my father,.. it is appreciated.

Given that I was able to leave prior to March 20th,.. yes.. it made sense to comply and to save an awful lot of hassle and perhaps considerably added expense in various respects.

With that said,.. I expect that there will be quite a number of overstayers that are in circumstances where they simply cannot muster the required funds, and so they must stay under cover and try to keep under the radar,.. at least until the current laws are repealed, forgotten about, or just not enforced as people expect they might be.

With respect,.. any breach of a code of law under an act of parliament or government is not classified as a "crime", but a "breach",.. there is a distinct and specific difference.

FYI,.. there is no such thing as a "Victimless Crime".. it is a misnomer and an oxymoron by nature. If you had studied law or would care to take up more careful study, then you would find that at least in all common law countries, that there can be no crime without a victim (Corpus Delicti).

If the Thai government were concerned with the branding of all people who breached codes of statute law as "Criminals" and punishing them accordingly, then the streets would be deserted for all the arrests made to traffic offenders, helmet and license offenders, and even business owners that make breaches of behavioral and compliance codes every day of the week!

An overstayer is NOT a criminal... unless during his overstay he/she has committed a crime that affects any other man/woman by way of injury, loss or harm (to person, property or children). And given that fact, then it could reasonably and fairly be argued, that to enforce a ban upon a farang family man/woman and his/her Thai family, would be a breach of basic human rights. You're of course entitled to disagree,.. but with all due respect I dont think your argument holds much weight in the overall balance of the subject.

[jspill]

Agreed, overstay doesn't come with a criminal record. Not all laws are criminal laws.

[momtaz]

Very much happy to read such successful stories...

I can feel how much meaningful one to the person who passed by a such experience,

as well congrats to the gentleman returned back to be with his wife and kids, hope no more such trouble will ever happen again,

past is past,

In this context, I would add something : I would pass a WARM THANKS and gratitude to ubonjoe for his kind assistance,

always serving this our TV community, personally I received some useful and really helpful replies from him in here,

Edited April 5, 2016 by momtaz

[BritTim]

This guy sure was not a frequent traveler! Bet they had fun calculating the number of days, bearing in mind allowing for leap years and such. Did they know the rule for determining whether 2000 was a leap year or not? Lucky about the 20,000 baht limit on the fine. With no limit it would have been 3,131,000 baht (payable in cash only).

I have a copy of his transferred entry stamp. Entered visa exempt on 13 December 1998 with admitted until date of 11 January 1999. You can count the days if you want to.

Off by three, I think. The overstay from 1999-01-11 until 2016-03-07 should be 6,265 days if I have calculated correctly. I clearly have too much time on my hands if idle curiosity has me spending 20 minutes working this out.

[walailak]

Correct!!

http://www.timeanddate.com/date/dateadded.html?d1=11&m1=01&y1=1999&type=add&ay=&am=&aw=&ad=6265&rec=

[lkv]

I notice several posters here wanted to become Immigration officers of Thailand in another life maybe but did not succeed.

I have explained about a month ago why people did not treat Immigration laws of Thailand like they would in Singapore.

This discussion is similar to refusing to pay the extra 7 dollar bribe asked by Cambodian authorities at the border.

Understand that law enforcement in Thailand lacks consistency. To be polite.

[nauseus]

A confession of abuse of the system over many years. It's called taking the p*ss. Too much detail and I bet not the full story.

You are lucky but your post will probably blow it for those who hope for the same benefit out Chiang Mai and visas out if Sydney!

[Merylhighground]

You are lucky but your post will probably blow it for those who hope for the same benefit out Chiang Mai and visas out if Sydney!

How so?

[bbbbooboo]

20,000 Baht to stay for 7 years. No visa runs, no 90 day reports. no paperwork etc. The system was flawed and you played it. No judgement from me. TIT.

+1 i think this process of justification is called confirmation bias

[Maestro]

Removed an off-topic post.

[JLCrab]

If you are arrested, or imprisoned, or deported and banned you cannot take care of anybody,

Staying legal is number one in my book.

Even if it means going without for a while so you have enough money for visas, extensions, border runs.

I am of no use to my Wife in prison or getting kicked out of the country.

I don't overstay but does anyone know or heard about a farang with a Thai family being imprisoned and/or deported because of overstay???

I am just curious about this.

No, I haven't either. It will be interesting to see whether the 1-10 year bans will be able to be enforced against "farang familymen" as you have indicated. Perhaps they may be initially, but if challenged in the Human Rights court, they might have to reconsider.

There's just too much to have to read into an accurate interpretation of how the new laws are to be administered, but I am of the opinion that the main emphasis is to protect the country against "bad guys" (such as those with criminal intent), and not to punish the families of farang overstayers,.. which is precisely the effect that such broad enforcement of the new ban laws would create.

If anyone wants to pursue that Thai Immigration laws are in violation of human and family rights treaties and/or conventions, here is a start;

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/UDHR/Documents/UDHR_Translations/eng.pdf

Edited April 5, 2016 by JLCrab

[johnatong]

If you are arrested, or imprisoned, or deported and banned you cannot take care of anybody,

Staying legal is number one in my book.

Even if it means going without for a while so you have enough money for visas, extensions, border runs.

I am of no use to my Wife in prison or getting kicked out of the country.

I don't overstay but does anyone know or heard about a farang with a Thai family being imprisoned and/or deported because of overstay???

I am just curious about this.

No, I haven't either. It will be interesting to see whether the 1-10 year bans will be able to be enforced against "farang familymen" as you have indicated. Perhaps they may be initially, but if challenged in the Human Rights court, they might have to reconsider.

There's just too much to have to read into an accurate interpretation of how the new laws are to be administered, but I am of the opinion that the main emphasis is to protect the country against "bad guys" (such as those with criminal intent), and not to punish the families of farang overstayers,.. which is precisely the effect that such broad enforcement of the new ban laws would create.

If anyone wants to pursue that Thai Immigration laws are in violation of human and family rights treaties and/or conventions, here is a start;

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/UDHR/Documents/UDHR_Translations/eng.pdf

I await the first attempt !

SE Asia, as far as I am aware, does not have a Court of Human Rights such as is found in Europe http://www.echr.coe.int/Pages/home.aspx?p=home

[paraquatt]

congratulations,, you must have the looks of a hollywood star and the silver tongue of the devil !! i am super anal about keeping my visa's in order but i am not one of the hang them high brigade, we all have our reasons why and overstay occurs and then turns into lengthy amount of time.although have to say 7 years for 20k is a new record, my friend had 4 years and paid 20k and i thought that was a miracle! so i say all kudos to you sir for pulling off an amazing feat for the farang nation !

but more importantly for your family as the relief felt must be massive.

my only advice is get one of those wall calendars and a big red pen !!!

ok over to all the hang em high brigade , he is clearly a bad, bad man who deserves all the following comments i am sure , haha!

kudos given, respect earned and miracles performed.

[Maestro]

If anyone wants to pursue that Thai Immigration laws are in violation of human and family rights treaties and/or conventions, here is a start;

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/UDHR/Documents/UDHR_Translations/eng.pdf

In your opinion, what article of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights covers overstaying?

[elviajero]

I am sorry to read of your father, but based on your posts I do not believe you would have continued on overstay past March 20th. You would have found a way, like many others, to get legal before the bans kicked in and threatened the separation of your family.

An interesting point regarding human rights but I don't share your opinion. It is against the law to overstay, which makes it a crime regardless of a victim.

Immigration have wanted overstay bans for well over 5 years so I don't seeing the new rules going/changing anytime soon. I believe the bans are the right way to deal with the problem and very relevant.

Thank you for your kind words about my father,.. it is appreciated.

Given that I was able to leave prior to March 20th,.. yes.. it made sense to comply and to save an awful lot of hassle and perhaps considerably added expense in various respects.

With that said,.. I expect that there will be quite a number of overstayers that are in circumstances where they simply cannot muster the required funds, and so they must stay under cover and try to keep under the radar,.. at least until the current laws are repealed, forgotten about, or just not enforced as people expect they might be.

With respect,.. any breach of a code of law under an act of parliament or government is not classified as a "crime", but a "breach",.. there is a distinct and specific difference.

FYI,.. there is no such thing as a "Victimless Crime".. it is a misnomer and an oxymoron by nature. If you had studied law or would care to take up more careful study, then you would find that at least in all common law countries, that there can be no crime without a victim (Corpus Delicti).

If the Thai government were concerned with the branding of all people who breached codes of statute law as "Criminals" and punishing them accordingly, then the streets would be deserted for all the arrests made to traffic offenders, helmet and license offenders, and even business owners that make breaches of behavioral and compliance codes every day of the week!

An overstayer is NOT a criminal... unless during his overstay he/she has committed a crime that affects any other man/woman by way of injury, loss or harm (to person, property or children). And given that fact, then it could reasonably and fairly be argued, that to enforce a ban upon a farang family man/woman and his/her Thai family, would be a breach of basic human rights. You're of course entitled to disagree,.. but with all due respect I dont think your argument holds much weight in the overall balance of the subject.

To be honest I have never had to consider what constitutes a crime and what doesn't, but it seems a matter of semantics. As far as I am concerned if someone breaks a law they commit a crime and most definitions I've read back that up. But if the law says otherwise I accept that I am wrong.

I believe that it is up to an individual country to decide if overstay is a crime and a quick study suggests that it can be considered a crime in the UK but not in the USA or AUS. Not sure about Thailand yet. In Thailand overstayers that are arrested are processed through a court and face possible imprisonment for up to two years. I assume they are prosecuted via a criminal court, but maybe one of the overstayers, with personal experience, can confirm.

[balo]

Overstaying a few days or even 60 days is acceptable . Overstaying because you are sick in hospital is acceptable.

But overstaying 7 years is not acceptable , its like you're hiding in Thailand and don't care about the rules at all. Business reasons , family reasons , not really good enough excuses imo.

But congratulation , you made it...

[Chivas]

Overstaying a few days or even 60 days is acceptable .

No its not acceptable (except if in Hospital)

[balo]

Overstaying a few days or even 60 days is acceptable .

No its not acceptable (except if in Hospital)

Not acceptable but it can be excused if you forget it , it happens with old people with bad memories. That is a valid reason , but years ? No way.

[55Jay]

An overt act is not necessary to constitute a criminal offense.

Failing to comply with the Thai Immi Act and the conditions under which they allow you into the country, is a crime. Full stop. Which is why you'll get banged up if caught.... and why over stayers try to lay low and "stay under the radar".

The soft touch treatment at the airport is a money spinner and also reduces logistics and workload. The fact they let you go on your way afterward, creates a false perception and space for all sorts of diminished, wishful thinking about open borders, freedom of human movement, sovereign man and when doesn't get traction, throw the poker chip on the table about the Thai wife and kids. Boo hoo.

Overstaying is not exactly a victim less crime either. The Immi Act provides punishment for those harboring over stayers. Owners of conveyance, such as airlines and Visa run agents, are subject to penalties - some are more militant at the check-in desk than others but that is the reason for it.

As mentioned before, over stayers create national "crack downs" which may, to some degree, cause inflexible attitudes and interactions with expats in general, including those with years of routine, impeccable compliance with Immi laws and procedures. I just did my annual extension, and the I/O who've we've dealt with for years, was nearly apologizing about how they have to "crack down" and be very strict with all foreigners now. The foreign thief arrested in Pattaya yesterday or day before, was an over stayer, no money and resorted to nicking bikes and clothing to stay here, and also feed his drug habit. I'm not saying all over-stayers do that, but that's the pile they belong to.

[JLCrab]

If anyone wants to pursue that Thai Immigration laws are in violation of human and family rights treaties and/or conventions, here is a start;

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/UDHR/Documents/UDHR_Translations/eng.pdf

In your opinion, what article of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights covers overstaying?

Article 16

3. The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

as I posted that in reference to the comment that the new overstay regulations might punish and serve to separate for years those who have families for an 'administrative infraction' and not solely those with criminal intent. But I was not one of those that said that the Overstay regulations in any way violate any human rights protocol binding or otherwise.

Edited April 6, 2016 by JLCrab

[55Jay]

If anyone wants to pursue that Thai Immigration laws are in violation of human and family rights treaties and/or conventions, here is a start;

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/UDHR/Documents/UDHR_Translations/eng.pdf

In your opinion, what article of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights covers overstaying?

Article 16

3. The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

as I posted that in reference to the comment that the new overstay regulations might punish and serve to separate for years those who have families for an 'administrative infraction' and not solely those with criminal intent. But I was not one of those that said that the Overstay regulations in any way violate any human rights protocol binding or otherwise.

Infractions are violations of law. Putting "administrative" before it doesn't diminish that.

Infractions, minor and major crimes are further defined by severity of punishment. 2 years in prison, a fine, or both, doesn't correlate to an infraction.

[JLCrab]

Oh come on. 'Administrative infraction' is how one of our most prominent digital nomads and overstayers has categorized the overstay provisions.

Edited April 6, 2016 by JLCrab

[johnatong]

Oh come on 'administrative infraction' is how one of our most prominent digital nomads and overstayers has categorized the overstay provisions.

Days are numbered for the DN's and other illegals. The days of soft option visa runs etc are over !

[55Jay]

Oh come on. 'Administrative infraction' is how one of our most prominent digital nomads and overstayers has categorized the overstay provisions.

OH! Well, that settles it then!

[D3030]

Overstaying a few days or even 60 days is acceptable .

No its not acceptable (except if in Hospital)

Pretty much it was acceptable... Just cost 20000 baht, as well as being on your best behavior to enjoy the longest possible overstay your heart desired.

It was practically an incentive vice a punishment for some..

Now that the new ground rules are in effect, it appears less than 90 days overstay, qualifies as an acceptable number not to be banned for an extended period..

Those currently over 90 days or multiple years overstay and decided just to ignore the new rules.. Those guys, with a family or not, I can see banning them for year(s).. But also don't care either way..

Overstayers made a zero effect on my life period...

There were overstayers when I first traveled to Thailand in March, 2002, to joining the club in 2010..

If you think overstayers made your ability to stay in Thailand more difficult, then look in the mirror, because that's your problem..

Those that decided to share their stories on how they cleared their long overstay, and what they went through, departing and returning..

Most, if not all were 'NOT' bragging about their overstays, some could have shared less info, but they were just belping others in clearing their own.

Anyway...

Edited April 6, 2016 by D3030

[JLCrab]

I think they enjoy writing about how they beat the system (as in): I overstayed for for X years and paid my 20K and NOTHING HAPPENED. I'm back now free-&-clear.

Kinda like those in the Insurance forum who say that I didn't buy health insurance for 10 years and now I'm WAY AHEAD.

[Merylhighground]

I think they enjoy writing about how they beat the system (as in): I overstayed for for X years and paid my 20K and NOTHING HAPPENED. I'm back now free-&-clear.

Maybe, but I'd wager that if you offered any over-stayer a change in their visa circumstances at any stage of their over-stay, they'd have taken your hand off. I don't think there's any element of bragging here, just sharing their relief at having beaten a ban.

[GMajor]

20,000 Baht to stay for 7 years. No visa runs, no 90 day reports. no paperwork etc. The system was flawed and you played it. No judgement from me. TIT.

I should have known better 3 years ago when I was charged 15k for 30 days overstay...