Having read the thread about sexual harassment, I am sincerely impressed by some women’s attitudes. Many of you live with the fact that this is not the west, and many of you seem to adapt to the local culture. Sexism is one of the things I resent about Thai culture. It p*sses me off when western men take advantage of the situation and do the things they that cannot get away with back home. They make sexist comments in workplace (office, not entertainment center) and keep staring at you while you tell them it makes you uncomfortable (when you are NOT wearing revealing clothing, if I need to emphasize that). If they were good-looking, the staring might not bother me as much, but they are old, ugly men with gray hair who probably somehow manage to fool themselves into believing that they are desirable and that the wrinkles, gray hair, receding hairline, fat belly, etc., add the tinge of sexiness.

And you are so right that when sexually harassed, going to the police won’t improve the situation, even when you have sufficient evidence, and unfortunately, although the law is powerless to protect you, hiring somebody to shoot somebody would most likely land you in jail. If you are lucky, someone with authority in your workplace may help defend you. Otherwise, put up with it or get a new job.

I don’t really have a question. I just thought it would be nice if those ill informed people would know that just because thai women have to put up with it (because they can’t really do anything about it) does not mean that ALL of them appreciate the advances.

Thank you.

rainx, do I hear what you are saying!

I know a Thai woman (fairly attractive) who, because she is single, is considered to be available meat by many single farang guys. Not only is she not interested in dating a farang man, she is not dating right now period. But, she becomes highly insulted by the idea that many men hold that she is "up for grabs" simply because she is a single Thai woman and resents the implication that she is easy.

I have never encountered problems with farang men in Thailand but then, I am married, work with my husband, and most men who know me know I am happily married.

But, I believe it occurs, having heard stories from single women working in Bangkok (esp). Funny how so many men assume that because you aren't with a guy you must be desperate for their attention.

But, on the other side of the coin, I think too many women have been burned by men and therefor assume that when a guy is friendly he is hitting on her when he may not necessarily be doing so.

And then sometimes, it is hard to tell. If I am unsure, I just smile, tell the guy the reason for my living in Thailand and then there is never any more ambiguity about his intentions.

Hmm I don't know...

Who says women do not get harassed in the work place in the western world. Okay I will be specific. The US.

I know I am no beauty Queen, but I have had my butt pinched in Home Depot, endured cat calls and love notes on my car at work (worked for a major corp. and it might as well have been a construction site), even had a seminarian invite me to his room! I have been followed home in the dead of the night from Wal-Mart, I have been escorted out of a night club via the back door due to a mis-placed smile? And I changed apartments once because a guy I went out with on a date kept banging on my door at 2 in the morning!

Apart from all that, for a while I actually thought my first name was "Sugar", and my middle name quite possibly "Baby doll". I simpley got tired of being pissed, and so I started answering.

When was the last time you watched guys making asses out of themselves while at Hooters?

So I beg to differ, all this harrasment that you might see here is nothing new. You just notice it more. While back home, it is such an everyday occurence that you just learn to either ignore it (when it is not physical) and or for every comment that comes your way at work, you belt right back a response to stop them dead in their tracks.

As for sexism, is it not alive, everywhere?

Hmm I don't know...

Who says women do not get harassed in the work place in the western world. Okay I will be specific. The US.

I know I am no beauty Queen, but I have had my butt pinched in Home Depot, endured cat calls and love notes on my car at work (worked for a major corp. and it might as well have been a construction site), even had a seminarian invite me to his room! I have been followed home in the dead of the night from Wal-Mart, I have been escorted out of a night club via the back door due to a mis-placed smile? And I changed apartments once because a guy I went out with on a date kept banging on my door at 2 in the morning!

Apart from all that, for a while I actually thought my first name was "Sugar", and my middle name quite possibly "Baby doll". I simpley got tired of being pissed, and so I started answering.

When was the last time you watched guys making asses out of themselves while at Hooters?

So I beg to differ, all this harrasment that you might see here is nothing new. You just notice it more. While back home, it is such an everyday occurence that you just learn to either ignore it (when it is not physical) and or for every comment that comes your way at work, you belt right back a response to stop them dead in their tracks.

As for sexism, is it not alive, everywhere?

You are right; sexual harassment occurs everywhere, although the prevalence and extent thereof may differ in different countries/cultures.

However, I was under the impression that in the US the harassed person can choose to take legal actions against the harasser whereas in Thailand that option is not available.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

When i DID decide to put an end to the initial harrasment, my boss told me, that he would be flattered if he had people hitting on him (so basically he didn't see what the big deal was).

When you are working in a predominantly male work environment, you have to weigh the odds. Is it really worth causing a big stink, and having somone who just might be close to retirement getting fired and losing some benefits? How will that affect your standing amongst the "good 'ole boys"? Will life be easier or more difficult?

I don't think you can bring legal actions against a person. Sure you can report it, in theory, but it depends on the company you work for as to how the issue will be resolved. They may just issue a warning, and then your life just might become a living hel_l.

Its like freedom of speech. Sure you have it in the US, but then the govt is creating files on protesters.

Well thats just sad...going through all that just because you want to work ...aren't there any decent respectful males?

I don't think anyone said there wasn't sexual harassment elsewhere LaReina.

As for sexual harassment at work in the US, yes, you can take action against the company if they do not follow through with your complaint. And women do take legal action against men in Thailand.

That said, legal action in Thailand is rarely effective and usually results in the public flaying of the woman's reputation. Whereas, if the woman is willing to take the trouble, in the US, legal action can be effective. Not always, certainly, but more effective than Thailand

As for the physical grabbing by total strangers at a store, I'll be honest, I haven't lived full time in the US since 1992 but I do visit every year and haven't had anyone grab my ass since junior high school. And if someone did, you'd bet I'd raise a loud and public stink.

And that, I believe, is the difference between Thai women and western women, Thai women will be quiet and tolerate it and a western woman will tell the guy to go away.

Well thats just sad...going through all that just because you want to work ...aren't there any decent respectful males?

Just to throw in my two cents worth , yes there are.

I have too many faults to list , but they do not include not

being a gentleman.

I treat a lady like a lady. Even if she has lost her "lady" status.

Girls , please , take no shit. You have done nothing to deserve it!

In some workplaces I have been pleasantly surprised by and grateful for the LACK of harassment, and the considerate behaviour of men who refrained from salacious talk and swearing in the presence of a "lady". (I think they would have been mortified if they had ever heard me lose it, but that never happened).

In situations where I have been at someone else's workplace...2 doctors' surgeries...I have experienced the worst kind of harrassment or should I call it ABUSE. It is a total betrayal being felt up by a person you trust to handle your body professionally....especially when you are pregnant (the first sleaze) or menopausal (the second langwit).

What can you do in this kind of situation? I could have ranted, slapped the guys, stormed out shouting to a waiting surgery that the doctor was a grope-artist etc...Then I could have sued the first guy, ruined my pregnancy with litigation procedures and all the uncertainty which that engenders.

Like many other young women, I guess, I was a bit slow to realise that... yeah...this doctor is doing what I think he is doing...panic, shock. I twisted away from him and sat up, got dressed and walked out. Then I changed doctors and warned other women who knew this guy professionally and socially about his ways. Some evidently did not believe me. One said the same had happened to her, and added "but he's a very good doctor". Huh?

When this happened the second time I hissed "get away from me", stood up, terminated the consultation and walked out never to return. The feelings of violation and disgust and anger take a while to get over, and the feeling of powerlessness in that situation does not sit well with me to this day. But when it comes to litigation it is your word against a respected professional with money to burn and insurance to back him. The odds are heavily stacked against you from the outset. I respect any woman who will pursue such a matter through the courts, but I am not made of that kind of stuff.

These events did NOT occur in Thailand but in post-feminist Australia, at times when most women were aware of their rights in the workplace and elsewhere. Here in Thailand, if a Thai woman was faced with harassment at work or at a doctor's surgery, I suspect she would be as confused as I was, would act rather meekly, and tend to internalise the pain and humiliation. This is an area where a lot could be done to assist Thai women to empower themselves by assertion of their rights against unwanted predators.

Edited November 7, 200619 yr by fruittbatt

Fruittbat, the exact same thing happened to me at the tender age of 16 by an elderly family practice physician and just thinking about it recalls the sense of fear and panic. I was so young and it seemed so impossible that this respected man could be doing what he obviously was that I just froze. It wasn't until a few years later when I heard that others had complained about him that I was sure that what I recalled was real.

Any sexual harassment or abuse is traumatizing but more so if there is a marked power imbalance as is the case between patient and doctor.

Now, from the vantage point of age and as a health professional myself, I would strongly urge anyone experiencing this with a doctor to report it. It is not necessary to win a lawsuit, as disciplinary action can be taken by the medical board. And it SHOULD be. To protectr patients and also to uphold the values of the medical profession.

Going back to the original post, while there is sexual harassment everythwere I do agree that foreign men act worse here than they would back home. About a decade ago I worked in Thailand with a US government agency (I was in tyhe foreign service). The behavior of some of my male Americal colleagues towards me was absolutely shocking and these same men would never in a million years have acted that way in the States. I saw a similiar thing when posted to Bangladesh, where the status of women in very low. Of course not everyone, but in some men misygnotic (?sp) tendencies come to the surface and are given free rein once in an envioronment that seems to condone it.

It might be more useful for us to trade tips on how to handle this sort of thing. Any favaorite tricks/retorts?

I talk too much and I am a disaster magnet.

Last time I had a hand rest on my rear (it was here in thailand), the guy in questions wife was walking a couple of steps in front of me. I grabbed his rear, squeezed as hard as I could and told him to knock it off.

Retorts I think would depend on the situation.

That said, legal action in Thailand is rarely effective and usually results in the public flaying of the woman's reputation. Whereas, if the woman is willing to take the trouble, in the US, legal action can be effective. Not always, certainly, but more effective than Thailand

Beautifully worded. Thank you.

This is going to be a long shot, but do you happen to know any good, reliable lawyers who have dealt with sexual harassment cases in Thailand? Contact info would be helpful. Anyone?

In response to Sheryl's suggestion, here are a couple of websites which give strategies for dealing with sexual harassment.

www.girlgeeks.org/ycareer/kforce/harass.shtml

www.awg.org/about/harass.pdf

The latter also defines sexual harassment.

La Reina,

I would like to have seen the grabber's face after you administered the not so gentle squeeze!

rainx - no, I don't know any lawyers in this field, but suggest checking other options first.

Having read the thread about sexual harassment, I am sincerely impressed by some women’s attitudes. Many of you live with the fact that this is not the west, and many of you seem to adapt to the local culture. Sexism is one of the things I resent about Thai culture. It p*sses me off when western men take advantage of the situation and do the things they that cannot get away with back home. They make sexist comments in workplace (office, not entertainment center) and keep staring at you while you tell them it makes you uncomfortable (when you are NOT wearing revealing clothing, if I need to emphasize that). If they were good-looking, the staring might not bother me as much, but they are old, ugly men with gray hair who probably somehow manage to fool themselves into believing that they are desirable and that the wrinkles, gray hair, receding hairline, fat belly, etc., add the tinge of sexiness.

Thank you.

Some of us expats are young guys with no grey hair!! and some of us would never make sexist comments!!

You need a new workplace!

When living in Japan, I worked for 3 firms. - Japan is not Thailand, but does share some of the "women don't speak up" traits.

The first had a very upright German owner, who apologized for any swearing at all, and kept on saying "chairperson" and other politically correct terms. I was one of two females there, and my predecessor had seemingly quit due to the boys' conversations being somewhat sexual in nature. So he was trying hard not to scare me off, until he discovered I'm not fussed about political correct terms (as long as it's not meant in a derogatory way) or the nature of the topics during breaks and before leaving on a Friday.

The second, my English boss would say "f*cking" this and that, swear and yell at me, and the next moment call me "sweetie". An English colleague would call me "darling". A Japanese colleague would comment on the size of my rear end, and touch me as well. I was the only female among 10 guys. I did complain to the boss about the touching, and inappropriateness of someone verbally appreciating my rear end, only after repeatedly complaining to the offender in question. The result was, an email went out to everyone but myself, saying that "someone in the office has complained about sexually harrassing behaviour" - I was the only female!!

The third, was a large US law firm, where the topic of sex and anything inappropriate was taboo. Any innuendos, anything that could be misconstrued as harrassment was not allowed.

Complaining about harrassment at the office is difficult, and if you say it lightly, often it is taken as a joke. Yet if you don't say anything, you end up keeping it inside and resenting those who harrass you, who may not even be aware of your feelings.

- Though not at work, Japan is famous for gropers on trains. I myself was groped on a weekly basis when I was in school. I was too shy (or something) to say anything other than to move away or push them away. After spending a year in the US (which definitely boosted my self-confidence), I never got groped again. After watching others on trains, I figured out why. Only the meek get groped, only those who won't complain. I am not saying that is why women get harrassed at work, but perhaps obvious distaste when there are comments or looks, verbally complaining aloud when these things happen, might make them think twice.

Just a (rather long) thought.

Mamastar,

it is not only the "meek" who are groped on buses or trains, it is any woman within range of a groper (or with her back to a frotteur....I think that is the correct word). Crowded public transport in many parts of the world is a paradise for opportunistic and stealthy guys with a bit of stolen self-gratification in mind. Try India or Italy!

If a woman shouts or lashes out, these guys move on mighty fast or get out at the next stop, and presumably repeat the performance on the next train.

The workplace where you were exposed for your complaint must have been very hard to endure. Courageous of you to complain in such hostile circumstances.

fruittbatt

... Japan is famous for gropers on trains. I myself was groped on a weekly basis when I was in school. I was too shy (or something) to say anything other than to move away or push them away. After spending a year in the US (which definitely boosted my self-confidence), I never got groped again. After watching others on trains, I figured out why. Only the meek get groped, only those who won't complain.

agree, and I think this is one reason (as the well known male attraction for young females) why young girls get harrassed and groped so much -- they have no idea how to respond, and often freeze in shock. I suffered the most groping and harrassment between ages 12 and 14. I was still young and pretty by 16 but not nearly as often groped or approached by strangers as by then I had learned -- the hard and traumatic way -- to be wary and ready to fend off unwanted attention.

A few years ago I duscussed the problem of gropers. exhibitionuists etc with my teenage niece. Turned out she had already had some traumatic encounters and not told anyone about it , as is usually the case. And, like most girls, she had thought she must have done something wrong for this to happen to her and that it didn't happen to others. I was so sorry it hadn't occurred to me sooner to talk with her about this stuff!

To break this cycle we need to prepare young guirls for it in advance, so they'll know what it's about, that it happens to everyone, and how to defend against it.

Sheryl, I agree completely that young women and teenage girls do need to be prepared for how to deal with harassment in all its manifestations.

Thinking further about the question of how to stop such abuse, I also agree that women who are aware of and able to deal with gropers can deter these guys from harassing other women by giving out assertive and protective non-verbal messages.

The "victim mentality" where a woman feels as if she is somehow to blame for the abuse and that she is powerless to deal with these predators needs to be addressed. I think we also need to beware of "blaming the victim" by not labelling those who are harassed (often from behind their backs) as having brought it on themselves because of their "meekness".

If any ladies in Chiang Mai are reading this, you may be interested to know that Professor Sombat of CM University will be addressing the Soroptimist International meeting next Saturday (18th) re the incidence of domestic violence and abuse of Thai women in CM. Please PM me if you would like more information. I will also be posting this on TV Chiang Mai forum.