SURVEY: Brexit, do you support it?

[Grouse]

So some of the 1% of UK live in Phuket.

I'm pretty sure that he's not part of the 1%. - he just wishes he was and for some obscure reason likes to pretend that he is part of the elite .

No, I always thought that Elite card business was a scam. To what are you referring?

[Grouse]

To all those ill informed persons who think that Gt Britain should stay in the EU. I strongly recommend that they learn more about the situation by watching the Youtube film "Brexit, The Movie" I am positive that they will be amazed by the facts that they obviously do not yet understand.

If you read my post 1067, I suggested to the Three main supporters ( Grouse, Chang Rei and Sandy) for remaining in this farce of a union to also look at Brexit the Movie, thinking it would give them the opportunity to find faults with Brexit,and there fore to prove their arguments. You will not be surprised to learn,that they have failed to answer, thus proving their argument is total hogwash.

After watching "Brexit, the movie" I felt quite despondent, and it made me despair for a future Britain which finds itself in the EU. Whilst I accept that the movie has a particular bias, I saw nothing in it which was overt propaganda or actual lies and deceit.

I am reminded, and I liken it, to how the situation that the satellite states of Soviet Russia were in, when rule by committee (in Moscow) and Central Planning was the order of the day. I am thinking of countries like Bulgaria and Romania, for example. Countries which the EU are now trying to integrate and lift up to some acceptable Western standard, at great cost (especially to the UK and Germany, the only net contributors in the EU). It was a time when faceless bureaucrats and state functionaries communicated instructions to the subject state on the latest dictats from Central Planning, and to which they had to make obeisance. A satellite country's erstwhile sovereignty, was but a distant memory. Eventually, there were no independent media, no independent foreign policy, no sovereign military establishment; indeed, no independence whatsoever. I believe that this will eventually become Britain's fate within the European Union.

Ultimately, the Soviet Union reached a situation where the proletariat pretended to work, and the state pretended to pay them. Even though the EU is (hopefully) more benign than Communist-era Soviet Russia, and has a clear market-driven orientation, the future looks astonishingly grim and uncertain for the member states, being run by faceless and unaccountable bureaucrats, and Democracies in name only.

There are 10 net contributors to the EU not 2

Perhaps I should have said that England and Germany are the MAJOR net contributors to the EU's coffers.

Nevertheless, this does not detract from the overall thrust and tone of the post, which is one of forlornness and desperation
with the realisation that even the so-called educated elite, the intellectuals and the intelligencia of Great Britain, are so easily
bamboozled into believing that Nirvana, in its guise as the European Union, lies along the way, like a mirage to thirsty desert
travellers .

It may also be described as a veritable land of milk and honey (along with fair-skinned maidens that the recently-migrated, and
predominantly male, Syrians and others could only dream about erstwhile), for these same erudite believers.

There are none so blind as those who will not see. (I believe I have read this phrase somewhere).

I don't think the EU is utopia but nor do I believe it to be distopia either. As I keep saying, it's a complex issue but on BALANCE I feel remain is the optimum way forward. If I keep saying that will you understand my position eventually do you think?

[nontabury]

To all those ill informed persons who think that Gt Britain should stay in the EU. I strongly recommend that they learn more about the situation by watching the Youtube film "Brexit, The Movie" I am positive that they will be amazed by the facts that they obviously do not yet understand.

If you read my post 1067, I suggested to the Three main supporters ( Grouse, Chang Rei and Sandy) for remaining in this farce of a union to also look at Brexit the Movie, thinking it would give them the opportunity to find faults with Brexit,and there fore to prove their arguments. You will not be surprised to learn,that they have failed to answer, thus proving their argument is total hogwash.


Come to think of it,all these Pro Eu people are afraid to have a sensible debate,
Why else is Cameron refusing to face Nigel Farage in a National T.V debate.

It is against forum rules to bait members so please remove my name from your posts.

I was not baiting you,I politely asked you a question. To which you have failed to reply.

you might want to bear in mind that the "leave" campaign are completely against including Farage in any debate as he is not part of the campaign. They were furious that he was invited to take part in an ITV debate.

Most of the debates are by people with a major following and who gets invited is often done by the companies themselves and Farage simply doesn't qualify Cameron would end up having to debate with anyone who happened to jump on a soapbox......but it doesn't surprise me that a brexiteer is unaware of this - it fits with most of the other things they've said on this thread.

Cameron has refused to go head to head with Boris Johnson or Grove,stating that he din't want blue on blue,as it would affect conservative unity in the future..
Farage most certainly does have a very major following, nearly 4,000,000 votes for UKIP in the general election, far more than the Liberals and SNP gained combined. But much more importantly in regards to the EU. In the 2014 European elections, UKIP lead by Nigel Farage gained more votes then any other British political party to form the largest group of British MEP's.

In times of trouble, one always sees a rise in right wing xenophobic nutters. No reason to give them a platform. Now I am not saying that all Brexiteers are right wing xenophobic nutters, though it does seem that the right wing xenophobic nutters support Brexit.

Why not have someone who supports Brexit but is rational. David Owen anyone?

I know it's difficult for the Brexiteers: Poor Boris? Gove (he's a bit odd)? IDS? Nigel?

What can I say?

Grouse, I don't want you to think like me, I just want you to THINK.

[Grouse]

The Brexit movie is thin watery gruel indeed

It genuinely depresses me that so many of you fall for such cheap propaganda

Answer me this: why is it that nobody of stature has stood up and supported Brexit? Not one.

Please provide some substance for your remarks. Can you please help us uneducated morons,and point to all the inaccuracies and lies in the Brexit movie.

Why do you say you are an uneducated moron? Don't be so hard on yourself!

Was the statement a rhetorical flourish?

Or does it hark back to a statement I made ages ago about there being a corrolation between education level and being pro EU?

Maybe you actually don't understand the point? It's all down to statistics

It's probably a Gaussian distribution. Do you know what that means?

The point is that people who are highly educated are more LIKELY to vote remain

It does NOT mean they all will. Indeed we had a chap on here weeks ago with an honours degree in chemistry from Oxford who stated he would vote for Brexit. He is what we call a statistical outlier

It DOES NOT mean that people who intend to vote Brexit are either uneducated or morons.

Whether you personally are uneducated or a moron I wouldn't know. I think you stated you were from Yorkshire so I very much doubt that you are a Moron!

Please can we stop the silliness now and resume a debate on the real issues?

May I recommend The World Debate on Radio 4 with David Owen, Chris Patton, Ruth somebody.... Very interesting stuff and food for thought

One interesting fact is that 100% of Russell group universities are pro EU! 100%. Not one dissenter!

Edited May 22, 2016 by Grouse

[nontabury]

To all those ill informed persons who think that Gt Britain should stay in the EU. I strongly recommend that they learn more about the situation by watching the Youtube film "Brexit, The Movie" I am positive that they will be amazed by the facts that they obviously do not yet understand.

If you read my post 1067, I suggested to the Three main supporters ( Grouse, Chang Rei and Sandy) for remaining in this farce of a union to also look at Brexit the Movie, thinking it would give them the opportunity to find faults with Brexit,and there fore to prove their arguments. You will not be surprised to learn,that they have failed to answer, thus proving their argument is total hogwash.


Come to think of it,all these Pro Eu people are afraid to have a sensible debate,
Why else is Cameron refusing to face Nigel Farage in a National T.V debate.

It is against forum rules to bait members so please remove my name from your posts.

I was not baiting you,I politely asked you a question. To which you have failed to reply.

you might want to bear in mind that the "leave" campaign are completely against including Farage in any debate as he is not part of the campaign. They were furious that he was invited to take part in an ITV debate.

Most of the debates are by people with a major following and who gets invited is often done by the companies themselves and Farage simply doesn't qualify Cameron would end up having to debate with anyone who happened to jump on a soapbox......but it doesn't surprise me that a brexiteer is unaware of this - it fits with most of the other things they've said on this thread.

Cameron has refused to go head to head with Boris Johnson or Grove,stating that he din't want blue on blue,as it would affect conservative unity in the future..
Farage most certainly does have a very major following, nearly 4,000,000 votes for UKIP in the general election, far more than the Liberals and SNP gained combined. But much more importantly in regards to the EU. In the 2014 European elections, UKIP lead by Nigel Farage gained more votes then any other British political party to form the largest group of British MEP's.

In times of trouble, one always sees a rise in right wing xenophobic nutters. No reason to give them a platform. Now I am not saying that all Brexiteers are right wing xenophobic nutters, though it does seem that the right wing xenophobic nutters support Brexit.

Why not have someone who supports Brexit but is rational. David Owen anyone?

I know it's difficult for the Brexiteers: Poor Boris? Gove (he's a bit odd)? IDS? Nigel?

What can I say?

"Oh" Grouse, you'll be calling people racist and bigots next, that being the usual line of those that have lost the argument.


By the way,those xenophobic nutters include on the Remain side David Cameron and Nick Clegg with Spanish wives and Nigel Farage on the Brexit side whose wife is German. To keep a bit of balance my wife is Thai. And you? Edited May 22, 2016 by Scott

[nontabury]

The Brexit movie is thin watery gruel indeed

It genuinely depresses me that so many of you fall for such cheap propaganda

Answer me this: why is it that nobody of stature has stood up and supported Brexit? Not one.

Please provide some substance for your remarks. Can you please help us uneducated morons,and point to all the inaccuracies and lies in the Brexit movie.

Why do you say you are an uneducated moron? Don't be so hard on yourself!

Was the statement a rhetorical flourish?

Or does it hark back to a statement I made ages ago about there being a corrolation between education level and being pro EU?

Maybe you actually don't understand the point? It's all down to statistics

It's probably a Gaussian distribution. Do you know what that means?

The point is that people who are highly educated are more LIKELY to vote remain

It does NOT mean they all will. Indeed we had a chap on here weeks ago with an honours degree in chemistry from Oxford who stated he would vote for Brexit. He is what we call a statistical outlier

It DOES NOT mean that people who intend to vote Brexit are either uneducated or morons.

Whether you personally are uneducated or a moron I wouldn't know. I think you stated you were from Yorkshire so I very much doubt that you are a Moron!

Please can we stop the silliness now and resume a debate on the real issues?

May I recommend The World Debate on Radio 4 with David Owen, Chris Patton, Ruth somebody.... Very interesting stuff and food for thought

One interesting fact is that 100% of Russell group universities are pro EU! 100%. Not one dissenter!

Ok so debate the accuracy or otherwise of the points made in Britex the movie.

"Oh" Why do I ask you to do this,for I know fine well you are incapable of responding in a straight forward way.

[Grouse]

The Brexit movie is thin watery gruel indeed

It genuinely depresses me that so many of you fall for such cheap propaganda

Answer me this: why is it that nobody of stature has stood up and supported Brexit? Not one.

Please provide some substance for your remarks. Can you please help us uneducated morons,and point to all the inaccuracies and lies in the Brexit movie.

Why do you say you are an uneducated moron? Don't be so hard on yourself!

Was the statement a rhetorical flourish?

Or does it hark back to a statement I made ages ago about there being a corrolation between education level and being pro EU?

Maybe you actually don't understand the point? It's all down to statistics

It's probably a Gaussian distribution. Do you know what that means?

The point is that people who are highly educated are more LIKELY to vote remain

It does NOT mean they all will. Indeed we had a chap on here weeks ago with an honours degree in chemistry from Oxford who stated he would vote for Brexit. He is what we call a statistical outlier

It DOES NOT mean that people who intend to vote Brexit are either uneducated or morons.

Whether you personally are uneducated or a moron I wouldn't know. I think you stated you were from Yorkshire so I very much doubt that you are a Moron!

Please can we stop the silliness now and resume a debate on the real issues?

May I recommend The World Debate on Radio 4 with David Owen, Chris Patton, Ruth somebody.... Very interesting stuff and food for thought

One interesting fact is that 100% of Russell group universities are pro EU! 100%. Not one dissenter!

Ok so debate the accuracy or otherwise of the points made in Britex the movie.

"Oh" Why do I ask you to do this,for I know fine well you are incapable of responding in a straight forward way.

OK, just for you I will watch it again and jot down some notes. I'll see if I have time tonight. ?

[rogeroc]

Something i find quite strange is that such a high proportion of TV posters support Brexit and from the comments on here many have significant nationalistic or patriotic reasons for wanting UK to leave. So why are you living in Thailand and not the UK ??

[Kwasaki]

So some of the 1% of UK live in Phuket.

I'm pretty sure that he's not part of the 1%. - he just wishes he was and for some obscure reason likes to pretend that he is part of the elite .

Owning up to just having a bit of a joke, some here think too much and take things to remind me of the in film joker " why so serious."

Enough now from me, I'll just refer back to my serious simple post to the undecided they can just think do I want England to rule itself again or do I want England to follow rules of being in a club with lots of other countries.

[returnofthailand]

when UK will be gone, Europe will beg UK to sign bilateral Agreements.

don't be scared little British sheep, you have been brain washed.. you will see once you are out of Europe, life will be sweeter and you will ask yourself why you have stayed so long in this ripe off system of Europe.

Greece is not UK. UK can offer to leave. Greece can not.

Edited May 22, 2016 by returnofthailand

[nontabury]

Edited May 22, 2016 by nontabury

[sandyf]

It was an interesting debate, quite enlightening, but what is said on here means nothing, there is only one vote available to those prepared to use it.

At the end of the day the odds are stacked against the UK ever leaving the EU. Even if this vote were to be in favour of Brexit it is highly unlikely exit negotiations would ever be completed. After 3/4 years arguing the toss with the EU and the UK bickering among themselves there is every chance of another referendum to try and get out of the mess.

For some strange reason the Brexit team seem to think that they can tell the EU to give them what they want in the divorce settlement.

[ThaiKneeTim]

So some of the 1% of UK live in Phuket.

I'm pretty sure that he's not part of the 1%. - he just wishes he was and for some obscure reason likes to pretend that he is part of the elite .

Owning up to just having a bit of a joke, some here think too much and take things to remind me of the in film joker " why so serious."

Enough now from me, I'll just refer back to my serious simple post to the undecided they can just think do I want England to rule itself again or do I want England to follow rules of being in a club with lots of other countries.

England will still be following the rules of a union should the nation decide to withdraw from the EUROPEAN Union. England is a member state of the United Kingdom, with three other member states!

[nontabury]

It was an interesting debate, quite enlightening, but what is said on here means nothing, there is only one vote available to those prepared to use it.

At the end of the day the odds are stacked against the UK ever leaving the EU. Even if this vote were to be in favour of Brexit it is highly unlikely exit negotiations would ever be completed. After 3/4 years arguing the toss with the EU and the UK bickering among themselves there is every chance of another referendum to try and get out of the mess.

For some strange reason the Brexit team seem to think that they can tell the EU to give them what they want in the divorce settlement.

You are correct Sandy, there is one vote available for those who wish to use it.

This is not the same as a general election,were the winning party gains power for 4 yrs then if the electorate wishes they can kick them out.

This is a vote for the future of the U.K. Do you want it to have a prosperous economy and democratic or do you want to remain in this corrupt organization ruled by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels.

[nontabury]

Just check out the unemployment rates in some of the EU countries,quite frightening.

Edited May 22, 2016 by nontabury

[allanos]

I have argued all along that David Cameron underplayed his hand during his recent negotiations with the EU

members. Perhaps he was not taken seriously. Perhaps he did not seriously convey the depth of (negative)

feeling about the EU which much of the British populace harbours. And perhaps he did not attempt to convince

the other parties that a withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union would have very serious

consequences for the Union, in multi-faceted ways. Indeed, it begs the question as to whether DC's efforts

were merely platitudes to the Euro-skeptics in the Tory party, and an attempt to not only placate this wing of

the party but also to thwart the political machinations of Nigel Farage and UKIP. Carrying out a charade whilst

killing two birds with one stone. Of course, it may come back to bite his ass!

As I have also argued in previous posts, lengthy Brexit negotiations with the EU will simply play into Britain's

hands. Because exit is a "process", and not an "event", whilst negotiating withdrawal the United Kingdom will

be simultaneously putting in place the various trade and other commercial structures and relationships necessary

to maintain economic and social equilibrium, and growth.

It is unlikely, given this scenario, that another referendum will ever be necessary, much less in 3 or 4 years'

time as Sandy suggests. If we have ever championed the indefatigable and indomitable spirit of the British people,

that time may well be after June 23rd.

[Thaiwine]

IMO if push comes to shove in the divorce we don't need the EU,

Sure it will hurt divorces always do

Few people who divorce regret their choice.

[evadgib]

IMO if push comes to shove in the divorce we don't need the EU,

Sure it will hurt divorces always do

Few people who divorce regret their choice.

In that case let's hope we're the female

[returnofthailand]

with bilateral Agreements at least it s bilateral and a country can still refuse, extend, or modify...

with Europe, UK has to keep it shut and do what Brussel say.

OK! it's nice to have little stickers on food showing the origin or to ask industries to freeze fishes.

but where are the jobs for our new generations? where are the damn jobs that Europe need to run the system.. without jobs we are all doomed. and i don't talk about shity little jobs( like assembling ikea furniture on freelancejob application .)

Edited May 22, 2016 by returnofthailand

[Mosha]

Something i find quite strange is that such a high proportion of TV posters support Brexit and from the comments on here many have significant nationalistic or patriotic reasons for wanting UK to leave. So why are you living in Thailand and not the UK ??

Snow

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

[chiang mai]

Something i find quite strange is that such a high proportion of TV posters support Brexit and from the comments on here many have significant nationalistic or patriotic reasons for wanting UK to leave. So why are you living in Thailand and not the UK ??

Excellent observation:

Mostly retirees, an Englishman is not at home unless he's abroad (or similar, who wrote that).

[Thaiwine]

Something i find quite strange is that such a high proportion of TV posters support Brexit and from the comments on here many have significant nationalistic or patriotic reasons for wanting UK to leave. So why are you living in Thailand and not the UK ??

Excellent observation:

Mostly retirees, an Englishman is not at home unless he's abroad (or similar, who wrote that).

The English are not happy unless they are miserable, the Irish are not at peace unless they are at war, and the Scots are not at home unless they are abroad.

George Orwell

[cumgranosalum]

IMO if push comes to shove in the divorce we don't need the EU,

Sure it will hurt divorces always do

Few people who divorce regret their choice.

Sadly though, it isn't a world that benefits single nations.

[cumgranosalum]

with bilateral Agreements at least it s bilateral and a country can still refuse, extend, or modify...

with Europe, UK has to keep it shut and do what Brussel say.

OK! it's nice to have little stickers on food showing the origin or to ask industries to freeze fishes.

but where are the jobs for our new generations? where are the damn jobs that Europe need to run the system.. without jobs we are all doomed. and i don't talk about shity little jobs( like assembling ikea furniture on freelancejob application .)

"UK has to keep it shut and do what Brussel say." UK is well represented in all the EU instutions - but most brexiteers don't want to hear that. \It is estimated that retain 98% control of our affairs - something that will be difficult outside the EU as we will be forced to make some unwelcome compromises just to find customers.

[WhamBam]

Something i find quite strange is that such a high proportion of TV posters support Brexit and from the comments on here many have significant nationalistic or patriotic reasons for wanting UK to leave. So why are you living in Thailand and not the UK ??

I spend my time in both Thailand and the U.K.

Is it so strange that I do not want my children and grandchildren to be brought up in a country ruled by non elected officials?

for me personally, I can be nationalistic and still travel the world and stay where I want and when I want.

Also, the U.K. is where my money is, my house and many friends and family. That gives me good reason to want to be involved and be able to vote on the referendum.

[Red13]

Brexit: The Motive

Emotive stuff. Reminds me of the old back and forth of the Union era which nearly sent Britain back to the stone ages.

It always seems to be an us and them narative. Cheap propoganda and inaccurate 'facts' to stir a sense of frustration already laying dormant in us as a country.

And comparing us to Switzerland? Really?

[rogeroc]

I spend my time in both Thailand and the U.K.

Is it so strange that I do not want my children and grandchildren to be brought up in a country ruled by non elected officials?

for me personally, I can be nationalistic and still travel the world and stay where I want and when I want.

Also, the U.K. is where my money is, my house and many friends and family. That gives me good reason to want to be involved and be able to vote on the referendum.

Yes i know what you mean but i still think you overlooked my point a little. For me one of the reasons i do not want to live in the UK is that i am not 'proud' to be British. Probably one reason i am pro European as well, i think many Europeans offer qualities not always apparent in the British.

[allanos]

I spend my time in both Thailand and the U.K.

Is it so strange that I do not want my children and grandchildren to be brought up in a country ruled by non elected officials?

for me personally, I can be nationalistic and still travel the world and stay where I want and when I want.

Also, the U.K. is where my money is, my house and many friends and family. That gives me good reason to want to be involved and be able to vote on the referendum.

Yes i know what you mean but i still think you overlooked my point a little. For me one of the reasons i do not want to live in the UK is that i am not 'proud' to be British. Probably one reason i am pro European as well, i think many Europeans offer qualities not always apparent in the British.

I respect your viewpoint, because I, myself, am no longer "proud" to be British, and find it difficult to identify with most of the

British inhabitants of Britain, in that, these days, they are such a motley and disparate group of people. However, that said,

how does one identify with a "European" (meaning Continental Europe as opposed to the United Kingdom)? There is no

"profile" to identify with, no "typical European", in my view. The Dutch are as different to the Italians, as the Poles are to the

Romanians.

And therein lies the rub. It will take many generations, if ever, for this artificial grouping of peoples and countries to ever feel

truly "united". It is the utmost experiment in social engineering imaginable, and I cannot foresee a time when Europe,

in its guise as the EU, will every be coherent.

[Thaiwine]

Ok so if we leave the EU and Scotland leaves the UK to join the EU,

Will we have to rebuild Hadrian’s wall to keep the Europeans out ?

Then there may be tariff’s on whisky, beef and ????

We may of course import all the whisky and beef we want far cheaper

But I hear them say “Ha we have oil”

Ermm I think you will find that it belongs to the people of Europe, like our fish used to.

Have a nice time funding the great EU.

[stag4]

Ok so if we leave the EU and Scotland leaves the UK to join the EU,

Will we have to rebuild Hadrians wall to keep the Europeans out ?

Then there may be tariffs on whisky, beef and ????

We may of course import all the whisky and beef we want far cheaper

But I hear them say Ha we have oil

Ermm I think you will find that it belongs to the people of Europe, like our fish used to.

Have a nice time funding the great EU.

Fantasy

People of Scotland are not that stupid