SURVEY: Brexit, do you support it?

[dick dasterdly]

Something i find quite strange is that such a high proportion of TV posters support Brexit and from the comments on here many have significant nationalistic or patriotic reasons for wanting UK to leave. So why are you living in Thailand and not the UK ??

Snow

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Snow is pretty rare nowadays in the UK, which is why I still love snow - for short periods . Its the never ending grey, rainy days that grind you down - and the incessant need to spend money to enjoy life (holidays/making a perfect home/having to work to support that 'lifestyle') etc. that leads to depression...

4hrs to do a drive home that in dry weather took 20 mins. After a 12 hr shift.

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Yes, I had ONE drive back home like that about 15 (?) years ago. But its VERY rare.

Edited May 23, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[chiang mai]

Absolutely true, it doesn't matter how many migrants get moved into town or how powerful the EU Parliament becomes, as long as house prices don't fall and current standards are at least maintained, that will all be OK.

Can you tell us where in the UK you come from to make such a remark?

I believe Cameron's constituency in Oxford has not been allocated any of these

Economic migrants. Osbourne's leafy Tatton just a couple. Now look at the areas in the north of England,completely different story,how about Rotherham in Yorkshire where they have at least inter grated with the vulnerable young girls. Another case of "I'm alright Jack".

Born and raised very near to Batley, Yorkshire for nineteen years, poster "Mosha's" neck of the woods, our dads used to work together.

Then overseas for many years.

My final and most recent stint in the UK was in a hamlet, four miles from Chipping Norton, for sixteen years.

Why?

Edited May 23, 2016 by chiang mai

[nontabury]

Absolutely true, it doesn't matter how many migrants get moved into town or how powerful the EU Parliament becomes, as long as house prices don't fall and current standards are at least maintained, that will all be OK.

Can you tell us where in the UK you come from to make such a remark?

I believe Cameron's constituency in Oxford has not been allocated any of these

Economic migrants. Osbourne's leafy Tatton just a couple. Now look at the areas in the north of England,completely different story,how about Rotherham in Yorkshire where they have at least inter grated with the vulnerable young girls. Another case of "I'm alright Jack".

Born and raised very near to Batley, Yorkshire for nineteen years, poster "Mosha's" neck of the woods, our dads used to work together.

Then overseas for many years.

My final and most recent stint in the UK was in a hamlet, four miles from Chipping Norton, for sixteen years.

Why?

You said " it does't matter how many immigrants get moved into towns" as long as house prices remain.

I'm not an expert on Batley, but I think it does have a few problems there. The same as Rotherham where I lived and worked for many years, before moving into the Dearne Valley.Then to Thailand.

[chiang mai]

Absolutely true, it doesn't matter how many migrants get moved into town or how powerful the EU Parliament becomes, as long as house prices don't fall and current standards are at least maintained, that will all be OK.

Can you tell us where in the UK you come from to make such a remark?

I believe Cameron's constituency in Oxford has not been allocated any of these

Economic migrants. Osbourne's leafy Tatton just a couple. Now look at the areas in the north of England,completely different story,how about Rotherham in Yorkshire where they have at least inter grated with the vulnerable young girls. Another case of "I'm alright Jack".

Born and raised very near to Batley, Yorkshire for nineteen years, poster "Mosha's" neck of the woods, our dads used to work together.

Then overseas for many years.

My final and most recent stint in the UK was in a hamlet, four miles from Chipping Norton, for sixteen years.

Why?

You said " it does't matter how many immigrants get moved into towns" as long as house prices remain.

I'm not an expert on Batley, but I think it does have a few problems there. The same as Rotherham where I lived and worked for many years, before moving into the Dearne Valley.Then to Thailand.

Batley, along with many towns in the North of England had substantial immigrant populations from shortly after the second world war. In the early days they were the essential work force for the woollen (and cotton) industries, so much so that those industries almost collapsed in the mid 1960's when the Indian/Pakistan war flared and workers went home to fight for their mother country.

During the 1960's the majority of immigrant workers were unskilled labourers, today the sons and daughters of those same workers represent a high proportion of the professional workforce yet it seems the two cultures haven't yet really integrated: http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/divided-they-fall-bradford-batley-halifax-and-keighley-among-uk-s-top-10-least-integrated-areas-1-7700400

Why is that so?

Your question to answer NB, I'll give you my version later.

[dick dasterdly]

Good idea to restrict responses to one poster... i.e. "Your question to answer NB".

Having been previously slammed by a poster for answering a point directed at another poster - I can only applaud the tactics.

[chiang mai]

Good idea to restrict responses to one poster... i.e. "Your question to answer NB".

Having been previously slammed by a poster for answering a point directed at another poster - I can only applaud the tactics.

Heads up, this is a social networking site where anyone may reply to a question or issue, that's how it works.

My request to NB is that he answer the question I raised, part of an on going dialogue between us, before I do.

You're quite young, aren't you!

[dick dasterdly]

Good idea to restrict responses to one poster... i.e. "Your question to answer NB".

Having been previously slammed by a poster for answering a point directed at another poster - I can only applaud the tactics.

Heads up, this is a social networking site where anyone may reply to a question or issue, that's how it works.

My request to NB is that he answer the question I raised, part of an on going dialogue between us, before I do.

You're quite young, aren't you!

So you don't mind if I give you my opinion on the subject - even though it was pointedly directed at NB?

I ask a poster was v annoyed when I responded to a post, that wasn't as deliberately directed towards one poster.

[Mosha]

Absolutely true, it doesn't matter how many migrants get moved into town or how powerful the EU Parliament becomes, as long as house prices don't fall and current standards are at least maintained, that will all be OK.

Can you tell us where in the UK you come from to make such a remark?

I believe Cameron's constituency in Oxford has not been allocated any of these

Economic migrants. Osbourne's leafy Tatton just a couple. Now look at the areas in the north of England,completely different story,how about Rotherham in Yorkshire where they have at least inter grated with the vulnerable young girls. Another case of "I'm alright Jack".

Born and raised very near to Batley, Yorkshire for nineteen years, poster "Mosha's" neck of the woods, our dads used to work together.

Then overseas for many years.

My final and most recent stint in the UK was in a hamlet, four miles from Chipping Norton, for sixteen years.

Why?

Worked together is stretching it. Mine worked for yours.

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[chiang mai]

Good idea to restrict responses to one poster... i.e. "Your question to answer NB".

Having been previously slammed by a poster for answering a point directed at another poster - I can only applaud the tactics.

Heads up, this is a social networking site where anyone may reply to a question or issue, that's how it works.

My request to NB is that he answer the question I raised, part of an on going dialogue between us, before I do.

You're quite young, aren't you!

So you don't mind if I give you my opinion on the subject - even though it was pointedly directed at NB?

I ask a poster was v annoyed when I responded to a post, that wasn't as deliberately directed towards one poster.

Your formal invitation is in the mail.

[chiang mai]

Absolutely true, it doesn't matter how many migrants get moved into town or how powerful the EU Parliament becomes, as long as house prices don't fall and current standards are at least maintained, that will all be OK.

Can you tell us where in the UK you come from to make such a remark?

I believe Cameron's constituency in Oxford has not been allocated any of these

Economic migrants. Osbourne's leafy Tatton just a couple. Now look at the areas in the north of England,completely different story,how about Rotherham in Yorkshire where they have at least inter grated with the vulnerable young girls. Another case of "I'm alright Jack".

Born and raised very near to Batley, Yorkshire for nineteen years, poster "Mosha's" neck of the woods, our dads used to work together.

Then overseas for many years.

My final and most recent stint in the UK was in a hamlet, four miles from Chipping Norton, for sixteen years.

Why?

Worked together is stretching it. Mine worked for yours.

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

Not relevant, everyone works for somebody else.

I raise the point of our knowing each other simply to support my claim to having been born and lived in Batley, important in light of the distrust of all things that NB has.

[nontabury]

Absolutely true, it doesn't matter how many migrants get moved into town or how powerful the EU Parliament becomes, as long as house prices don't fall and current standards are at least maintained, that will all be OK.

Can you tell us where in the UK you come from to make such a remark?

I believe Cameron's constituency in Oxford has not been allocated any of these

Economic migrants. Osbourne's leafy Tatton just a couple. Now look at the areas in the north of England,completely different story,how about Rotherham in Yorkshire where they have at least inter grated with the vulnerable young girls. Another case of "I'm alright Jack".

Born and raised very near to Batley, Yorkshire for nineteen years, poster "Mosha's" neck of the woods, our dads used to work together.

Then overseas for many years.

My final and most recent stint in the UK was in a hamlet, four miles from Chipping Norton, for sixteen years.

Why?

You said " it does't matter how many immigrants get moved into towns" as long as house prices remain.

I'm not an expert on Batley, but I think it does have a few problems there. The same as Rotherham where I lived and worked for many years, before moving into the Dearne Valley.Then to Thailand.

Batley, along with many towns in the North of England had substantial immigrant populations from shortly after the second world war. In the early days they were the essential work force for the woollen (and cotton) industries, so much so that those industries almost collapsed in the mid 1960's when the Indian/Pakistan war flared and workers went home to fight for their mother country.

During the 1960's the majority of immigrant workers were unskilled labourers, today the sons and daughters of those same workers represent a high proportion of the professional workforce yet it seems the two cultures haven't yet really integrated: http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/divided-they-fall-bradford-batley-halifax-and-keighley-among-uk-s-top-10-least-integrated-areas-1-7700400

Why is that so?

Your question to answer NB, I'll give you my version later.

I think we are more or less referring to Muslim immigrants who came to work in the northern mill towns. In 1961 the U.K Muslim population was just 60,000, in

55 yrs it has grown to over 3,000,000, this basically is the reason for today's problems. Too many have been alloyed to settle in this country within a very short period of time, added to this is the cultural and religious differences. There are many influential people within That community who Do Not want to integrate with the locals, further more they put pressure onto other Muslims to comply with their strict no integration rules.

Hope this answers your question.

[dick dasterdly]

Thank you. I found it a bit odd that you waited until I left the website before replying, but appreciate being told its not only NB who is welcome to respond.

Many foreign workers were encouraged to emigrate to the UK in the 50s/60's - a time when work was plentiful and consequently reasonably well paid. Unfortunately a couple of decades later jobs were more scarce, and immigrants generally provided a source of low-paid workers for those that way inclined.

This attitude has accelerated - hence the 're-grading' of many jobs (always downwards)/loss of company pensions etc.

I doubt that the "sons and daughters" of the emigrants are a large proportion of the "professional workforce" - but I could be wrong, so look forward to receiving evidence to support this.

Edited May 23, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[chiang mai]

I think we are more or less referring to Muslim immigrants who came to work in the northern mill towns. In 1961 the U.K Muslim population was just 60,000, in

55 yrs it has grown to over 3,000,000, this basically is the reason for today's problems. Too many have been alloyed to settle in this country within a very short period of time, added to this is the cultural and religious differences. There are many influential people within That community who Do Not want to integrate with the locals, further more they put pressure onto other Muslims to comply with their strict no integration rules.

Hope this answers your question.

We are talking about immigrants, their religion is irrelevant, unless you just want to bash Muslims, in which case I'm out.

I'll take your figures of 60k/3 mill. as a given for the purposes of this exchange, perhaps somebody with a sharper math skill than mine could extrapolate 60k over 55 years on the basis of family growth, my guess is that growth rate is not unreasonable, mathematically - man takes wife has child, who grows up marries and has child etc., it's a bit like the grain of rice on the first square of the chess board which is doubled with every subsequent square, the total number of grains equals 18,446,744,073,709,551,615, much higher than what most intuitively expect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat_and_chessboard_problem

So whose fault was it was the question: governments back in the early post years for importing immigrant labour to support the wool/cotton industries; governments for alowing them to stay; the immigrants fault for being natural and having families or the population for not voting effective government to deal with a specific problem.

And why have the two groups not integrated? It couldn't possibly be anything to do with locals being insular and having never travelled more than 100 miles from their homes whilst the immigrants have travelled several thousands of miles to a new world, shades of immigrants to the US there I think. And actually, I moved from Batley to London for work in 1968 and the reception of a northern lad with a Yorkshire accent, by southern folk, was probably not that different from the one received by immigrants in the north at that time - did I mention insularity of the UK population before!

And if today there are indeed influential migrants in the UK who do not want to integrate, (remember we are talking about immigrants and not any religious faction), who can blame them, given the way many of them were treated by the indigenous population back in the 1960's and onwards and I have witnessed that widespread mistreatment first hand over many years, shocking and appalling treatment.

So what does all the above have to do with Brexit and the EU readers are asking themselves - nothing at all is the simple answer, the immigration issue in the UK is not of the EU's making, it was made by the British government and the British people who voted (or failed to) in successive governments. But hey, blame it on the EU, why not, Brexit wont change that issue however!

.

[allanos]

I think we are more or less referring to Muslim immigrants who came to work in the northern mill towns. In 1961 the U.K Muslim population was just 60,000, in

55 yrs it has grown to over 3,000,000, this basically is the reason for today's problems. Too many have been alloyed to settle in this country within a very short period of time, added to this is the cultural and religious differences. There are many influential people within That community who Do Not want to integrate with the locals, further more they put pressure onto other Muslims to comply with their strict no integration rules.

Hope this answers your question.

We are talking about immigrants, their religion is irrelevant, unless you just want to bash Muslims, in which case I'm out.

I'll take your figures of 60k/3 mill. as a given for the purposes of this exchange, perhaps somebody with a sharper math skill than mine could extrapolate 60k over 55 years on the basis of family growth, my guess is that growth rate is not unreasonable, mathematically - man takes wife has child, who grows up marries and has child etc., it's a bit like the grain of rice on the first square of the chess board which is doubled with every subsequent square, the total number of grains equals 18,446,744,073,709,551,615, much higher than what most intuitively expect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat_and_chessboard_problem

So whose fault was it was the question: governments back in the early post years for importing immigrant labour to support the wool/cotton industries; governments for alowing them to stay; the immigrants fault for being natural and having families or the population for not voting effective government to deal with a specific problem.

And why have the two groups not integrated? It couldn't possibly be anything to do with locals being insular and having never travelled more than 100 miles from their homes whilst the immigrants have travelled several thousands of miles to a new world, shades of immigrants to the US there I think. And actually, I moved from Batley to London for work in 1968 and the reception of a northern lad with a Yorkshire accent, by southern folk, was probably not that different from the one received by immigrants in the north at that time - did I mention insularity of the UK population before!

And if today there are indeed influential migrants in the UK who do not want to integrate, (remember we are talking about immigrants and not any religious faction), who can blame them, given the way many of them were treated by the indigenous population back in the 1960's and onwards and I have witnessed that widespread mistreatment first hand over many years, shocking and appalling treatment.

So what does all the above have to do with Brexit and the EU readers are asking themselves - nothing at all is the simple answer, the immigration issue in the UK is not of the EU's making, it was made by the British government and the British people who voted (or failed to) in successive governments. But hey, blame it on the EU, why not, Brexit wont change that issue however!

.

A good post, with large dollops of realism interspersed. Well reasoned, well argued and cogent.

I would guess that immigrant famies having a large number of children, which a generation later have a similar large number of children,

would easily have grown from 60k to 3m in a span of 55 years. Hopefully, as they have become wealthier, better educated and more aspirational

in their socio-economic space, the birth rates have by now started to decline.

I think we are largely off-topic, though, with respect to the Brexit question.

[nontabury]

I think we are more or less referring to Muslim immigrants who came to work in the northern mill towns. In 1961 the U.K Muslim population was just 60,000, in

55 yrs it has grown to over 3,000,000, this basically is the reason for today's problems. Too many have been alloyed to settle in this country within a very short period of time, added to this is the cultural and religious differences. There are many influential people within That community who Do Not want to integrate with the locals, further more they put pressure onto other Muslims to comply with their strict no integration rules.

Hope this answers your question.

We are talking about immigrants, their religion is irrelevant, unless you just want to bash Muslims, in which case I'm out.

I'll take your figures of 60k/3 mill. as a given for the purposes of this exchange, perhaps somebody with a sharper math skill than mine could extrapolate 60k over 55 years on the basis of family growth, my guess is that growth rate is not unreasonable, mathematically - man takes wife has child, who grows up marries and has child etc., it's a bit like the grain of rice on the first square of the chess board which is doubled with every subsequent square, the total number of grains equals 18,446,744,073,709,551,615, much higher than what most intuitively expect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat_and_chessboard_problem

So whose fault was it was the question: governments back in the early post years for importing immigrant labour to support the wool/cotton industries; governments for alowing them to stay; the immigrants fault for being natural and having families or the population for not voting effective government to deal with a specific problem.

And why have the two groups not integrated? It couldn't possibly be anything to do with locals being insular and having never travelled more than 100 miles from their homes whilst the immigrants have travelled several thousands of miles to a new world, shades of immigrants to the US there I think. And actually, I moved from Batley to London for work in 1968 and the reception of a northern lad with a Yorkshire accent, by southern folk, was probably not that different from the one received by immigrants in the north at that time - did I mention insularity of the UK population before!

And if today there are indeed influential migrants in the UK who do not want to integrate, (remember we are talking about immigrants and not any religious faction), who can blame them, given the way many of them were treated by the indigenous population back in the 1960's and onwards and I have witnessed that widespread mistreatment first hand over many years, shocking and appalling treatment.

So what does all the above have to do with Brexit and the EU readers are asking themselves - nothing at all is the simple answer, the immigration issue in the UK is not of the EU's making, it was made by the British government and the British people who voted (or failed to) in successive governments. But hey, blame it on the EU, why not, Brexit wont change that issue however!

.

So if I get this right you left Batley in 1968 when it had a very small immigrant

Population,for the next decade or two you lived in London and overseas,before returning to live in Cameron's constituency ( as previously mentioned, no economic migrants have been settled there) before moving here to Thailand. During these nearly 50 yrs, many changes have occurred in Batley, no more so than the make up of the population,who unfortunately have not integrated. So would I be correct that really you don't know what's occurred there in this time, and as far as your concerned "I'm all right Jack".

P.s I also left Yorkshire originally in the 1960's lived in the south with people from all around the UK and Southern Ireland, Never felt any prejudices against this Yorkshire lad. So what did you do, to upset the Londoners, I can only guess.

Edited May 23, 2016 by nontabury

[dick dasterdly]

I think we are more or less referring to Muslim immigrants who came to work in the northern mill towns. In 1961 the U.K Muslim population was just 60,000, in

55 yrs it has grown to over 3,000,000, this basically is the reason for today's problems. Too many have been alloyed to settle in this country within a very short period of time, added to this is the cultural and religious differences. There are many influential people within That community who Do Not want to integrate with the locals, further more they put pressure onto other Muslims to comply with their strict no integration rules.

Hope this answers your question.

We are talking about immigrants, their religion is irrelevant, unless you just want to bash Muslims, in which case I'm out.

I'll take your figures of 60k/3 mill. as a given for the purposes of this exchange, perhaps somebody with a sharper math skill than mine could extrapolate 60k over 55 years on the basis of family growth, my guess is that growth rate is not unreasonable, mathematically - man takes wife has child, who grows up marries and has child etc., it's a bit like the grain of rice on the first square of the chess board which is doubled with every subsequent square, the total number of grains equals 18,446,744,073,709,551,615, much higher than what most intuitively expect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat_and_chessboard_problem

So whose fault was it was the question: governments back in the early post years for importing immigrant labour to support the wool/cotton industries; governments for alowing them to stay; the immigrants fault for being natural and having families or the population for not voting effective government to deal with a specific problem.

And why have the two groups not integrated? It couldn't possibly be anything to do with locals being insular and having never travelled more than 100 miles from their homes whilst the immigrants have travelled several thousands of miles to a new world, shades of immigrants to the US there I think. And actually, I moved from Batley to London for work in 1968 and the reception of a northern lad with a Yorkshire accent, by southern folk, was probably not that different from the one received by immigrants in the north at that time - did I mention insularity of the UK population before!

And if today there are indeed influential migrants in the UK who do not want to integrate, (remember we are talking about immigrants and not any religious faction), who can blame them, given the way many of them were treated by the indigenous population back in the 1960's and onwards and I have witnessed that widespread mistreatment first hand over many years, shocking and appalling treatment.

So what does all the above have to do with Brexit and the EU readers are asking themselves - nothing at all is the simple answer, the immigration issue in the UK is not of the EU's making, it was made by the British government and the British people who voted (or failed to) in successive governments. But hey, blame it on the EU, why not, Brexit wont change that issue however!

.

I agree with a lot of this and have never had any problem with the immigrants from a few decades ago, that built a life for themselves.

But the issue now (for many) is not the hard-working immigrants from the 50s and 60s - but the influx of recent immigrants that are not actually required - but have been driving low-paid job wages down for a long time now.

Having said that, immigration is not why I've decided to vote for Brexit - its a 'minor' concern (to me, living abroad ) compared to the unaccountability/cost/corruption etc. The EU needs to be forced to reform - they're hardly likely to accept change otherwise, as it will affect their pockets both personally and their countries, if forced into a 'fairer' system.

As far as I can make out, the French have made the most of the EU - they've protected their interests (small farmers etc.), whilst small farmers in the UK have been taken over by big businesses that are still receiving EU subsidies. Why and how was this allowed to happen?

[allanos]

A previous poster used the term “inclusiveness” as an ideal for the citizens of the EU, believing

that the umbrella of the EU would “magically” (my word) have them all pulling together towards a common goal,

united in a single purpose. How to achieve this “Utopian” state? There are no mechanisms, as yet, in place to promote

a “European” patriotism. It remains a disparate and polyglot and economically unequal grouping which the EU is trying to

cobble together as an “entity”. It is my belief that the EU will have largely disintegrated long before deep feelings of patriotism

can be instilled or inculcated in the population, but that’s another story altogether.

I was brought up to be fiercely patriotic, although not "jingoistic" as previous generations had been.

I was proud of my country and my citizenship of it. I see nothing particularly wrong with that, although DD finds it something of

an embarrassment. Perhaps it is an anachronism in this day and age? I don’t know. I would need to be persuaded.

However, I am quite certain that without some overarching program in place within the EU to create feelings of pride, belonging

and, yes, patriotism in its structure, its denizens are unlikely to ever be able to coalesce into some meaningful body able to compete

with the other major political and economic structures in the world at large. And they will possibly, further down the line, also become

unleadable and ungovernable because of it. Watch out for a strongman to emerge as a force for leadership in this scenario!

How to do away with individual emotional National Anthems, National sporting teams, and National Pride? It will absolutely become

necessary if “Europe” is ever to work. This is not some Orwellian fantasy, by the way. The EU Commissioners will have recognized this,

I am sure, and will be putting plans in place, no doubt getting ready to create a separate department and appoint a czar, mandarin or other

functionary to oversee the process to its conclusion.

.

Is this what the British really want to ally themselves with? Surely not?

[arjunadawn]

A previous poster used the term “inclusiveness” as an ideal for the citizens of the EU, believing

that the umbrella of the EU would “magically” (my word) have them all pulling together towards a common goal,

united in a single purpose. How to achieve this “Utopian” state? There are no mechanisms, as yet, in place to promote

a “European” patriotism. It remains a disparate and polyglot and economically unequal grouping which the EU is trying to

cobble together as an “entity”. It is my belief that the EU will have largely disintegrated long before deep feelings of patriotism

can be instilled or inculcated in the population, but that’s another story altogether.

I was brought up to be fiercely patriotic, although not "jingoistic" as previous generations had been.

I was proud of my country and my citizenship of it. I see nothing particularly wrong with that, although DD finds it something of

an embarrassment. Perhaps it is an anachronism in this day and age? I don’t know. I would need to be persuaded.

However, I am quite certain that without some overarching program in place within the EU to create feelings of pride, belonging

and, yes, patriotism in its structure, its denizens are unlikely to ever be able to coalesce into some meaningful body able to compete

with the other major political and economic structures in the world at large. And they will possibly, further down the line, also become

unleadable and ungovernable because of it. Watch out for a strongman to emerge as a force for leadership in this scenario!

How to do away with individual emotional National Anthems, National sporting teams, and National Pride? It will absolutely become

necessary if “Europe” is ever to work. This is not some Orwellian fantasy, by the way. The EU Commissioners will have recognized this,

I am sure, and will be putting plans in place, no doubt getting ready to create a separate department and appoint a czar, mandarin or other

functionary to oversee the process to its conclusion.

.

Is this what the British really want to ally themselves with? Surely not?

Brilliant. Thank you.

[chiang mai]

I think we are more or less referring to Muslim immigrants who came to work in the northern mill towns. In 1961 the U.K Muslim population was just 60,000, in

55 yrs it has grown to over 3,000,000, this basically is the reason for today's problems. Too many have been alloyed to settle in this country within a very short period of time, added to this is the cultural and religious differences. There are many influential people within That community who Do Not want to integrate with the locals, further more they put pressure onto other Muslims to comply with their strict no integration rules.

Hope this answers your question.

We are talking about immigrants, their religion is irrelevant, unless you just want to bash Muslims, in which case I'm out.

I'll take your figures of 60k/3 mill. as a given for the purposes of this exchange, perhaps somebody with a sharper math skill than mine could extrapolate 60k over 55 years on the basis of family growth, my guess is that growth rate is not unreasonable, mathematically - man takes wife has child, who grows up marries and has child etc., it's a bit like the grain of rice on the first square of the chess board which is doubled with every subsequent square, the total number of grains equals 18,446,744,073,709,551,615, much higher than what most intuitively expect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat_and_chessboard_problem

So whose fault was it was the question: governments back in the early post years for importing immigrant labour to support the wool/cotton industries; governments for alowing them to stay; the immigrants fault for being natural and having families or the population for not voting effective government to deal with a specific problem.

And why have the two groups not integrated? It couldn't possibly be anything to do with locals being insular and having never travelled more than 100 miles from their homes whilst the immigrants have travelled several thousands of miles to a new world, shades of immigrants to the US there I think. And actually, I moved from Batley to London for work in 1968 and the reception of a northern lad with a Yorkshire accent, by southern folk, was probably not that different from the one received by immigrants in the north at that time - did I mention insularity of the UK population before!

And if today there are indeed influential migrants in the UK who do not want to integrate, (remember we are talking about immigrants and not any religious faction), who can blame them, given the way many of them were treated by the indigenous population back in the 1960's and onwards and I have witnessed that widespread mistreatment first hand over many years, shocking and appalling treatment.

So what does all the above have to do with Brexit and the EU readers are asking themselves - nothing at all is the simple answer, the immigration issue in the UK is not of the EU's making, it was made by the British government and the British people who voted (or failed to) in successive governments. But hey, blame it on the EU, why not, Brexit wont change that issue however!

.

So if I get this right you left Batley in 1968 when it had a very small immigrant

Population,for the next decade or two you lived in London and overseas,before returning to live in Cameron's constituency ( as previously mentioned, no economic migrants have been settled there) before moving here to Thailand. During these nearly 50 yrs, many changes have occurred in Batley, no more so than the make up of the population,who unfortunately have not integrated. So would I be correct that really you don't know what's occurred there in this time, and as far as your concerned "I'm all right Jack".

P.s I also left Yorkshire originally in the 1960's lived in the south with people from all around the UK and Southern Ireland, Never felt any prejudices against this Yorkshire lad. So what did you do, to upset the Londoners, I can only guess.

Not really! I returned from the US in 1985 and went to work for the Big 6 where my second assignment was secondment to a financial institution headquartered in Bradford, I would stay there full time for the next six months which gave me an opportunity to visit places of my youth. Interestingly, six months prior I'd been a resident of Miami Beach where I also worked and the similarities between the two location were similar in some respects. Miami has a substantial Hispanic population which dominates many areas, shops restaurants and businesses in both locations were majority ethnically owned and run police and community services are staffed with ethnic residents and signs that read se habla español are everywhere - ditto in Bradford except the signs are in Urdu. Personally I didn't have a problem with either location, things seemed to work well in both places. As for your, "I'm all right Jack" comment, presumably that refers to the lack of immigrants in Chipping Norton? That being so I can easily understand why, simply, the places is beyond dull and there's no work to be had other than shop keeping and in this respect the immigrant community has control of most of the convenience stores in both Chippy. Burford and Charlbury and beyond.

Finally, it would be unfair I suppose to refer to southerners showing prejudice towards this northern lad when I moved to London but there was much mickey taking of accents and place of birth, diet etc. and differences were quickly identified. In business, in our offices in The City, white anglo saxon and an Oxbridge degree was derigeur, not a single immigrant to be seen for miles, fortunately that has now changed for the better, it just takes time.

[chiang mai]

Mass desertions it seems, 55/42/3 and it's the oldies who are walking. Why? Because Team Brexit has failed to make an economic case for leaving, as said many times already:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/23/eu-referendum-poll-pensioners-tory-voters-and-men-are-deserting/

Edited May 23, 2016 by chiang mai

[Orac]

A previous poster used the term “inclusiveness” as an ideal for the citizens of the EU, believing

that the umbrella of the EU would “magically” (my word) have them all pulling together towards a common goal,

united in a single purpose. How to achieve this “Utopian” state? There are no mechanisms, as yet, in place to promote

a “European” patriotism. It remains a disparate and polyglot and economically unequal grouping which the EU is trying to

cobble together as an “entity”. It is my belief that the EU will have largely disintegrated long before deep feelings of patriotism

can be instilled or inculcated in the population, but that’s another story altogether.

I was brought up to be fiercely patriotic, although not "jingoistic" as previous generations had been.

I was proud of my country and my citizenship of it. I see nothing particularly wrong with that, although DD finds it something of

an embarrassment. Perhaps it is an anachronism in this day and age? I don’t know. I would need to be persuaded.

However, I am quite certain that without some overarching program in place within the EU to create feelings of pride, belonging

and, yes, patriotism in its structure, its denizens are unlikely to ever be able to coalesce into some meaningful body able to compete

with the other major political and economic structures in the world at large. And they will possibly, further down the line, also become

unleadable and ungovernable because of it. Watch out for a strongman to emerge as a force for leadership in this scenario!

How to do away with individual emotional National Anthems, National sporting teams, and National Pride? It will absolutely become

necessary if “Europe” is ever to work. This is not some Orwellian fantasy, by the way. The EU Commissioners will have recognized this,

I am sure, and will be putting plans in place, no doubt getting ready to create a separate department and appoint a czar, mandarin or other

functionary to oversee the process to its conclusion.

.

Is this what the British really want to ally themselves with? Surely not?

Surely the UK provides an example of how a group of nations can retain their individual identities whilst being part of a larger grouping - there are still national football teams, national anthems (though England have not really pinned one down yet) and a strong sense of national pride, particularly in Scotland and N Ireland.

[nontabury]

A previous poster used the term “inclusiveness” as an ideal for the citizens of the EU, believing

that the umbrella of the EU would “magically” (my word) have them all pulling together towards a common goal,

united in a single purpose. How to achieve this “Utopian” state? There are no mechanisms, as yet, in place to promote

a “European” patriotism. It remains a disparate and polyglot and economically unequal grouping which the EU is trying to

cobble together as an “entity”. It is my belief that the EU will have largely disintegrated long before deep feelings of patriotism

can be instilled or inculcated in the population, but that’s another story altogether.

I was brought up to be fiercely patriotic, although not "jingoistic" as previous generations had been.

I was proud of my country and my citizenship of it. I see nothing particularly wrong with that, although DD finds it something of

an embarrassment. Perhaps it is an anachronism in this day and age? I don’t know. I would need to be persuaded.

However, I am quite certain that without some overarching program in place within the EU to create feelings of pride, belonging

and, yes, patriotism in its structure, its denizens are unlikely to ever be able to coalesce into some meaningful body able to compete

with the other major political and economic structures in the world at large. And they will possibly, further down the line, also become

unleadable and ungovernable because of it. Watch out for a strongman to emerge as a force for leadership in this scenario!

How to do away with individual emotional National Anthems, National sporting teams, and National Pride? It will absolutely become

necessary if “Europe” is ever to work. This is not some Orwellian fantasy, by the way. The EU Commissioners will have recognized this,

I am sure, and will be putting plans in place, no doubt getting ready to create a separate department and appoint a czar, mandarin or other

functionary to oversee the process to its conclusion.

.

Is this what the British really want to ally themselves with? Surely not?

Surely the UK provides an example of how a group of nations can retain their individual identities whilst being part of a larger grouping - there are still national football teams, national anthems (though England have not really pinned one down yet) and a strong sense of national pride, particularly in Scotland and N Ireland.

Are the English encouraged to have a sense of national pride? I think not,we even have cases of some left wing councils prohibiting the flying of the Union Jack from town halls. Compare this with the USA where many people even fly their flag in their gardens,or here in Thailand, where you can see the Thai flag on every soi.

So what has this to do with Brexit? Could it be that some Brits, now have no confidence in their own country,especially after being fed a diet of EU bullshit for the last 40yrs. To even speak up for our own country tempts some people to accuse them of being racist or bigots, as in the case of Ex prime minister Gordon Brown when confronted by the concerns of Gillion Duffy.

[chiang mai]

NB would you bring back conscription if you could?

[Caps]

NB would you bring back conscription if you could?

I would, but I would not integrate with the regular units....my full service didn't do me any harm and I think it would help change UK society for the better

[chiang mai]

NB would you bring back conscription if you could?

I would, but I would not integrate with the regular units....my full service didn't do me any harm and I think it would help change UK society for the better

Are you Brexit or Remain?

[Caps]

Brexit.....now do I get filled with infinite wisdom?

[chiang mai]

Brexit.....now do I get filled with infinite wisdom?

I doubt it! I was just checking a theory that Brexiteers are all heavily dosed in nostalgia and conscription would be a typical part of that.

Having said that I'm in the Remain camp and would recommend conscription so maybe my theory isn't that water tight.

[nontabury]

I think we are more or less referring to Muslim immigrants who came to work in the northern mill towns. In 1961 the U.K Muslim population was just 60,000, in

55 yrs it has grown to over 3,000,000, this basically is the reason for today's problems. Too many have been alloyed to settle in this country within a very short period of time, added to this is the cultural and religious differences. There are many influential people within That community who Do Not want to integrate with the locals, further more they put pressure onto other Muslims to comply with their strict no integration rules.

Hope this answers your question.

We are talking about immigrants, their religion is irrelevant, unless you just want to bash Muslims, in which case I'm out.

I'll take your figures of 60k/3 mill. as a given for the purposes of this exchange, perhaps somebody with a sharper math skill than mine could extrapolate 60k over 55 years on the basis of family growth, my guess is that growth rate is not unreasonable, mathematically - man takes wife has child, who grows up marries and has child etc., it's a bit like the grain of rice on the first square of the chess board which is doubled with every subsequent square, the total number of grains equals 18,446,744,073,709,551,615, much higher than what most intuitively expect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat_and_chessboard_problem

So whose fault was it was the question: governments back in the early post years for importing immigrant labour to support the wool/cotton industries; governments for alowing them to stay; the immigrants fault for being natural and having families or the population for not voting effective government to deal with a specific problem.

And why have the two groups not integrated? It couldn't possibly be anything to do with locals being insular and having never travelled more than 100 miles from their homes whilst the immigrants have travelled several thousands of miles to a new world, shades of immigrants to the US there I think. And actually, I moved from Batley to London for work in 1968 and the reception of a northern lad with a Yorkshire accent, by southern folk, was probably not that different from the one received by immigrants in the north at that time - did I mention insularity of the UK population before!

And if today there are indeed influential migrants in the UK who do not want to integrate, (remember we are talking about immigrants and not any religious faction), who can blame them, given the way many of them were treated by the indigenous population back in the 1960's and onwards and I have witnessed that widespread mistreatment first hand over many years, shocking and appalling treatment.

So what does all the above have to do with Brexit and the EU readers are asking themselves - nothing at all is the simple answer, the immigration issue in the UK is not of the EU's making, it was made by the British government and the British people who voted (or failed to) in successive governments. But hey, blame it on the EU, why not, Brexit wont change that issue however!

.

So if I get this right you left Batley in 1968 when it had a very small immigrant

Population,for the next decade or two you lived in London and overseas,before returning to live in Cameron's constituency ( as previously mentioned, no economic migrants have been settled there) before moving here to Thailand. During these nearly 50 yrs, many changes have occurred in Batley, no more so than the make up of the population,who unfortunately have not integrated. So would I be correct that really you don't know what's occurred there in this time, and as far as your concerned "I'm all right Jack".

P.s I also left Yorkshire originally in the 1960's lived in the south with people from all around the UK and Southern Ireland, Never felt any prejudices against this Yorkshire lad. So what did you do, to upset the Londoners, I can only guess.

Not really! I returned from the US in 1985 and went to work for the Big 6 where my second assignment was secondment to a financial institution headquartered in Bradford, I would stay there full time for the next six months which gave me an opportunity to visit places of my youth. Interestingly, six months prior I'd been a resident of Miami Beach where I also worked and the similarities between the two location were similar in some respects. Miami has a substantial Hispanic population which dominates many areas, shops restaurants and businesses in both locations were majority ethnically owned and run police and community services are staffed with ethnic residents and signs that read se habla español are everywhere - ditto in Bradford except the signs are in Urdu. Personally I didn't have a problem with either location, things seemed to work well in both places. As for your, "I'm all right Jack" comment, presumably that refers to the lack of immigrants in Chipping Norton? That being so I can easily understand why, simply, the places is beyond dull and there's no work to be had other than shop keeping and in this respect the immigrant community has control of most of the convenience stores in both Chippy. Burford and Charlbury and beyond.

Finally, it would be unfair I suppose to refer to southerners showing prejudice towards this northern lad when I moved to London but there was much mickey taking of accents and place of birth, diet etc. and differences were quickly identified. In business, in our offices in The City, white anglo saxon and an Oxbridge degree was derigeur, not a single immigrant to be seen for miles, fortunately that has now changed for the better, it just takes time.

So after living in Bradford for Six Months in 1985, you've come to the conclusion that the UK and certainly some areas do not have a problem with immigrants, especially those who have NO intension of integrating. You even blame in your post 1275, the indigenous people for the failure of these same people to integrate. Well I've got news for you, it does have a problem,one that is increasing each yr. Who says so, your own M.P Cameron, that is why he promised to reduce immigration to less than 100,000 a year. A pledge that he has failed miserable, with immigration now at a yearly figure of 330,000.

Yet with these facts in front of you, you still intend to vote for remaining in the corrupt E.U. thus allowing even more and more economic migrants to enter the UK, whether they have, or have not,the skills that are in demand or even required in the U.K. As the saying goes " there are none so blind as those who will not see".

[chiang mai]

We are talking about immigrants, their religion is irrelevant, unless you just want to bash Muslims, in which case I'm out.

I'll take your figures of 60k/3 mill. as a given for the purposes of this exchange, perhaps somebody with a sharper math skill than mine could extrapolate 60k over 55 years on the basis of family growth, my guess is that growth rate is not unreasonable, mathematically - man takes wife has child, who grows up marries and has child etc., it's a bit like the grain of rice on the first square of the chess board which is doubled with every subsequent square, the total number of grains equals 18,446,744,073,709,551,615, much higher than what most intuitively expect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat_and_chessboard_problem

So whose fault was it was the question: governments back in the early post years for importing immigrant labour to support the wool/cotton industries; governments for alowing them to stay; the immigrants fault for being natural and having families or the population for not voting effective government to deal with a specific problem.

And why have the two groups not integrated? It couldn't possibly be anything to do with locals being insular and having never travelled more than 100 miles from their homes whilst the immigrants have travelled several thousands of miles to a new world, shades of immigrants to the US there I think. And actually, I moved from Batley to London for work in 1968 and the reception of a northern lad with a Yorkshire accent, by southern folk, was probably not that different from the one received by immigrants in the north at that time - did I mention insularity of the UK population before!

And if today there are indeed influential migrants in the UK who do not want to integrate, (remember we are talking about immigrants and not any religious faction), who can blame them, given the way many of them were treated by the indigenous population back in the 1960's and onwards and I have witnessed that widespread mistreatment first hand over many years, shocking and appalling treatment.

So what does all the above have to do with Brexit and the EU readers are asking themselves - nothing at all is the simple answer, the immigration issue in the UK is not of the EU's making, it was made by the British government and the British people who voted (or failed to) in successive governments. But hey, blame it on the EU, why not, Brexit wont change that issue however!

.

So if I get this right you left Batley in 1968 when it had a very small immigrant

Population,for the next decade or two you lived in London and overseas,before returning to live in Cameron's constituency ( as previously mentioned, no economic migrants have been settled there) before moving here to Thailand. During these nearly 50 yrs, many changes have occurred in Batley, no more so than the make up of the population,who unfortunately have not integrated. So would I be correct that really you don't know what's occurred there in this time, and as far as your concerned "I'm all right Jack".

P.s I also left Yorkshire originally in the 1960's lived in the south with people from all around the UK and Southern Ireland, Never felt any prejudices against this Yorkshire lad. So what did you do, to upset the Londoners, I can only guess.

Not really! I returned from the US in 1985 and went to work for the Big 6 where my second assignment was secondment to a financial institution headquartered in Bradford, I would stay there full time for the next six months which gave me an opportunity to visit places of my youth. Interestingly, six months prior I'd been a resident of Miami Beach where I also worked and the similarities between the two location were similar in some respects. Miami has a substantial Hispanic population which dominates many areas, shops restaurants and businesses in both locations were majority ethnically owned and run police and community services are staffed with ethnic residents and signs that read se habla español are everywhere - ditto in Bradford except the signs are in Urdu. Personally I didn't have a problem with either location, things seemed to work well in both places. As for your, "I'm all right Jack" comment, presumably that refers to the lack of immigrants in Chipping Norton? That being so I can easily understand why, simply, the places is beyond dull and there's no work to be had other than shop keeping and in this respect the immigrant community has control of most of the convenience stores in both Chippy. Burford and Charlbury and beyond.

Finally, it would be unfair I suppose to refer to southerners showing prejudice towards this northern lad when I moved to London but there was much mickey taking of accents and place of birth, diet etc. and differences were quickly identified. In business, in our offices in The City, white anglo saxon and an Oxbridge degree was derigeur, not a single immigrant to be seen for miles, fortunately that has now changed for the better, it just takes time.

So after living in Bradford for Six Months in 1985, you've come to the conclusion that the UK and certainly some areas do not have a problem with immigrants, especially those who have NO intension of integrating. You even blame in your post 1275, the indigenous people for the failure of these same people to integrate. Well I've got news for you, it does have a problem,one that is increasing each yr. Who says so, your own M.P Cameron, that is why he promised to reduce immigration to less than 100,000 a year. A pledge that he has failed miserable, with immigration now at a yearly figure of 330,000.

Yet with these facts in front of you, you still intend to vote for remaining in the corrupt E.U. thus allowing even more and more economic migrants to enter the UK, whether they have, or have not,the skills that are in demand or even required in the U.K. As the saying goes " there are none so blind as those who will not see".

You manage continually to extract assumptions from my posts that are not based on anything I wrote! I answered the questions you raised regarding my whereabouts in which year but that is by no means the full extent of my exposure to parts of the UK that have immigrant problems, neither did I conclude that immigration is not a problem anywhere in the UK!

Indeed the country could prevent all immigrants from entering but apart from the legal problems that approach would generate, the impact on the economy would be dire. In fact the UK does not have sufficient working age people with the correct skills and work ethos available to it hence immigration is an essential cure to that problem - (read what I wrote carefully before you tell me there are x hundred thousand unemployed Brits available to the labour market).

But let's say that immigration could be stopped overnight or even reduced to below 100k, there would be insufficient labour available to industry hence the only alternative is to shrink the economy, let GDP fall and along with it the value of UK assets and income, people simply wouldn't stand for it and the government would fall overnight, leaving UK plc with some stark choices.

And yes, I still stand behind what I wrote earlier, much of the immigration situation today is legacy, based on events that happened fifty years ago, Brits not voting, the populations sour attitude to essential immigrants in the work force, the failure to integrate (if indeed that is mainstream and not just a series of anomalies) is rooted at least in part in our early treatment of those immigrants, reap what you sow springs to mind. BTW I see you glossed over the accounting of your 60k to 3 million stats., convenient that!

[Caps]

Brexit.....now do I get filled with infinite wisdom?

I doubt it! I was just checking a theory that Brexiteers are all heavily dosed in nostalgia and conscription would be a typical part of that.

Having said that I'm in the Remain camp and would recommend conscription so maybe my theory isn't that water tight.

I don't really do nostalgia. I also think that being in the EU has its good points (although in my eyes not many) but the bad points out way the good which is why I am wanting out.