Opponents Of Thai Coup Concentrated In Nation's North

[Jai Dee]

Opponents of Thai Coup Concentrated in Nation's North

CHIANG MAI, Nov 6 Asia Pulse - Political opponents of the military coup, have penetrated all 17 provinces in Thailand's northern region, Third Region Army Commander Lt-Gen. Chiradet Kocharat said on Saturday.

However, he said the army was in control of the situation.

Despite the coup makers' ban on political gatherings of more than five persons, movements against the Council for National Security (CNS) and the interim government it installed have been reported in much of the North and Northeast, both political strongholds of the former premier's Thai Rak Thai (TRT) Party.

Ex-premier Thaksin was removed by a bloodless coup on September 19.

Gen. Chiradet met reporters after golfing with army chief and CNS chairman Gen. Sonthi Boonyaratkalin in the northern capital city of Chiang Mai on Saturday.

He said it is acceptable that groups of people disagree with the coup and they are welcome to voice their opinions in line with the democratic practices of the new government.

Nevertheless, some groups are stirring up movements merely to protect their own interests.

The CNS will summon such persons for talks so that they will not cause any damage to the nation.

"If they do anything which is not good for the nation, they must be prosecuted," he said.

However, he said he did not see the political criticism as cause for alarm.

Gen. Chiradet said he had not heard a rumour that ousted premier Thaksin, now in China, might try to return to Thailand quietly through the North.

If such a report was confirmed, he said, he would inform his commander.

Source: TNA/OANA - Monday November 6, 2006

[Jai Dee]

`Secret cells' discovered in Thailand's pro-Thaksin north

OLD GUARD: Pockets of resistance to the junta that took power after the Sept. 19 coup were discovered in the provinces where the deposed leader has a strong following

Thailand's junta had detected "secret cells" aiming to destabilize the post-coup political situation in the north, where deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra had wide support, a report said yesterday.

Third Region Army Commander, Lieutenant-General Jiradej Kotcharat, said the military found "undercurrent" cells in 17 northern provinces and was closely monitoring their activities, the daily Nation newspaper reported.

"Without wind, waves do not happen," he was quoted as saying, adding the cells were aiming to destabilize the Council for National Security, as the junta now calls itself, following the Sept. 19 coup that ousted Thaksin.

Residents of the poor north and northeast are believed to still support Thaksin, whose populist policies succeeded in boosting their incomes.

"The emergence of opposition groups is understandable as some people lost out from the coup, but I must remind you this situation is not good for the nation, which needs to be united," Jiradej said.

Following the putsch, the military imposed martial law, scrapped planned elections, banned public rallies and threatened action against the media.

The reported discovery of the secret cells came amid conflicting reports over Thaksin's return to Thailand, following the bloodless coup.

The Nation, quoting a source from Thaksin's Thai Rak Thai Party, said Thaksin had decided to return to Thailand in early December. Thaksin resigned as leader of the party last month.

Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont, who was installed by the military following the coup, has said he was willing to hold talks with Thaksin about his return, if he approached Surayud to make formal arrangements.

But Surayud also said that Thaksin should wait until "security issues" were resolved before looking to return to Thailand.

Thaksin was in New York when the coup happened, and had since been living in self-imposed exile in London, where he has a home.

Last week, his legal adviser said Thaksin was in Beijing to visit friends, but insisted the deposed leader would not return to Thailand in the near future, as the country still remained under martial law following the coup.

Thailand's defense minister said last week that the Surayud government would not lift martial law anytime soon as the country was still unstable after the coup.

Source: AFP - Monday, Nov 06, 2006

[LaoPo]

Opponents of Thai Coup Concentrated in Nation's North

CHIANG MAI, Nov 6 Asia Pulse - Political opponents of the military coup, have penetrated all 17 provinces in Thailand's northern region, Third Region Army Commander Lt-Gen. Chiradet Kocharat said on Saturday.

Gen. Chiradet met reporters after golfing with army chief and CNS chairman Gen. Sonthi Boonyaratkalin in the northern capital city of Chiang Mai on Saturday.

It's nice to learn that the generals can relax a little and play a round of golf despite the dangers of political opponents and the stress of putting the country back on track after the coup.

LaoPo

[Tony Clifton]

An information campaign wouldn't hurt in that area. Start distributing some of Sondhi's tv shows and cd's for free, see what they think afterwards.

[Plus]

Ultimately they don't have any popular support - they are no champions of poor, no liberators, they just use farmers for their own causes, and they won their hearts just for the moment.

Time will come, sooner or later, when Northerners will see them like the rest of the country - as hungry ghosts (maybe minus Isan). It's time to rest and let the new guys (or rather old guys in new uniforms) to rule.

[ColPyat]

An information campaign wouldn't hurt in that area. Start distributing some of Sondhi's tv shows and cd's for free, see what they think afterwards.

They will think the same thing that most serious campaigners for Democracy who have split from Sondhi think: that he is a liar out for himself.

[ColPyat]

Ultimately they don't have any popular support - they are no champions of poor, no liberators, they just use farmers for their own causes, and they won their hearts just for the moment.

Time will come, sooner or later, when Northerners will see them like the rest of the country - as hungry ghosts (maybe minus Isan). It's time to rest and let the new guys (or rather old guys in new uniforms) to rule.

Wishful thinking.

The biggest predicament of the present government, and main reason for the upkeep of the martial law is that TRT and affiliated groups have huge popular support.

The rallies and political events of the past year have maybe slightly minimised TRT popular support in numbers (proportionally large though in the cities), but have though strengthened the resolve of the upcountry supporters.

Just because not much of this is reported in the media does not mean that this is not a reality that is going to haunt the government in the coming year.

Edited November 6, 2006 by ColPyat

[Tony Clifton]

An information campaign wouldn't hurt in that area. Start distributing some of Sondhi's tv shows and cd's for free, see what they think afterwards.

They will think the same thing that most serious campaigners for Democracy who have split from Sondhi think: that he is a liar out for himself.

Can you name a few?

[ColPyat]

Can you name a few?

Not at the present time, sorry.

Edited November 6, 2006 by ColPyat

[Tony Clifton]

Mmm. Thought so.

[britmaveric]

Ahhh so the insurgency begins?

[lukamar]

Ahhh so the insurgency begins?

Just who are the insurgents? You could hang that on a few groups since September.

[younghusband]

Ultimately they don't have any popular support - they are no champions of poor, no liberators, they just use farmers for their own causes, and they won their hearts just for the moment.

Time will come, sooner or later, when Northerners will see them like the rest of the country - as hungry ghosts (maybe minus Isan). It's time to rest and let the new guys (or rather old guys in new uniforms) to rule.

Does it matter to you whether they have popular support or not? I thought according to you we were living in some kind of sixteenth century Siamese Disneyland where everyone knew their place in the pecking order.

The old guys in uniform seized power from a discredited politician, albeit one who has greater claim to legitimacy than the junta which replaced him.It would be hardly be surprising if there wasn't widespread discontent as anyone not blinded by prejudice must surely see.

What's for sure the debate won't be influenced much by us lot.

[Meerkat]

Does it matter to you whether they have popular support or not? I thought according to you we were living in some kind of sixteenth century Siamese Disneyland where everyone knew their place in the pecking order.

The old guys in uniform seized power from a discredited politician, albeit one who has greater claim to legitimacy than the junta which replaced him.It would be hardly be surprising if there wasn't widespread discontent as anyone not blinded by prejudice must surely see.

What's for sure the debate won't be influenced much by us lot.

Very well put.

Bearing in mind the limitations on free speech we are now under, I shall try and choose my words carefully:

1.I am astounded that so many people have forgotten that Taksin was not the first leader in Thailand to be accused of corruption. Chatichai Choonhavan's government was alleged to be as bent as a three-bob note. PM Banharn was nicknamed in the local press as “The Walking ATM” because of his reputation of vote-buying. The '96 election, won by Chavalit, was dubbed “the most corrupt election in Thai history”. Now two wrongs (or three, or thirty) do not make a right, but it is important to put Taksin's alleged crimes in context. Thankfully, with the massive increase in the flow of information that such advances as satellite television and the internet afford us, it is getting harder for such corruption to remain hidden.

2.It is painfully obvious to anyone that Taksin effectively enfranchised the huge majority of Thai people, who had hardly been given the time of day by previous administrations. As reported by the BKK Post last week (I forget which day), the new NLA is made up primarily of people representing the minorities of the BKK elite and the military, with only a small peppering of those on behalf of the Thai majority. Opposition to Taksin has always derided his so-called “populist” policies. It's a democracy for god's sake (well, at least it was); policy is supposed to pander to the majority who elected him.

3.I'm astounded. Again! I'm astounded that people believe everything that they read in the press in countries with no obvious limits on freedom of speech, such as the US and UK. But when those limits are openly enforced upon the local media, and people still lap up everything they read as gospel, you've got to start worrying for them.

I am scared for Thailand. I am scared that when democracy is reintroduced, and a party/leader is voted in again on the back of the votes of the majority rather than the elite minorities, we are doomed to see history repeating itself again and again. I am currently not allowed to comment on the coup ( well, that's not entirely true; I am welcome to say it was the best thing for Thailand since the rice-cooker), but I am certainly allowed to say that the most damaging single episode to Thai democracy was not Taksin's regime, it was the unelectable opposition's refusal to partake in the elections earlier this year.

[TAWP]

Opposition to Taksin has always derided his so-called “populist” policies. It's a democracy for god's sake (well, at least it was); policy is supposed to pander to the majority who elected him.

Populism isn't pantering to the majority that elected him (them), it's getting elected by pandering to a wide group of voters of different opinions by giving each a carrot on a string.

It's the worst aspect of democracy as there is no longterm-planning, no ideology, just ways to gain power and control.

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep, voting on what to eat for dinner...

Liberty is a well armed sheep contesting the vote. - Thomas Jefferson

[suiging]

Opposition to Taksin has always derided his so-called “populist” policies. It's a democracy for god's sake (well, at least it was); policy is supposed to pander to the majority who elected him.

Populism isn't pantering to the majority that elected him (them), it's getting elected by pandering to a wide group of voters of different opinions by giving each a carrot on a string.

It's the worst aspect of democracy as there is no longterm-planning, no ideology, just ways to gain power and control.

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep, voting on what to eat for dinner...

Liberty is a well armed sheep contesting the vote. - Thomas Jefferson

Thanks for the great quote !!!

[Plus]

I am astounded that so many people have forgotten that Taksin was not the first leader in Thailand to be accused of corruption.

It's Thais who think that his corruption got completely out of hand. They DO remember all previous governments very well.

>>>>>

Popular support, like popularity, is a flickering thing. Thaksin and TRT do not REPRESENT majority's interests. They USE that majority for their own ends.

"Just who the insurgents are?" - good question. Are there any at all? Is it only local pooyais who want their power back?

They can surely mobilize mobs from their fiefdoms and give them free rides, food, t-shirts, etc. Does it make a popular uprising?

Exactly the same "popular support" as when Thaksin bused two three hundred thousand farmers to Sanam Luang. Or when mob blocaded The Nation building.

[hammered]

Just a few points.

Thailand had democracy before to the extent it had elections. It did not have functioning independent oversight bodies. It did not have an equally informed civil society that were able to consider all the information before making a vote. All these that were lacking are oft stated pre conditions before a country can be considered democratic according to groups and people as divers as Syrian dissidents and Anwar Ibrahim not to mention most western thinkers. Thailand does not have have democracy now. All we can do is wait and see what comes next. If it is a form of democracy where what was lacking before is strengthened maybe people can argue that the coup was worth it. We will see.

Oh and the struggle for hearts and minds right now is not purely about Mr. Thaksin and some leaders of the coup. It is far more complicated than this.

[lukamar]

Oh and the struggle for hearts and minds right now is not purely about Mr. Thaksin and some leaders of the coup. It is far more complicated than this.

You get a big star.. You understand the situation. Far more complicated and in a lot of ways it does not involve Thaksin or the leaders of the coup..

[Meerkat]

I am astounded that so many people have forgotten that Taksin was not the first leader in Thailand to be accused of corruption.

It's Thais who think that his corruption got completely out of hand. They DO remember all previous governments very well.

This is why I pointed to the fact that it is much harder these days, thankfully, to get away with it because it is so much harder to control the media. The sad thing as well is that it would seem that the BKK elite think that a certain amount of corruption is OK (if it benefits them), but Taksin took it too far - hypocritical moral-relativism at best.

Do bear in mind as well the corruption stats posted on another thread here; in spite of everything we read about, Transparency International seems to think that corruption decreased under his administration. And that is with better access to information than before.

>>>>>

Popular support, like popularity, is a flickering thing. Thaksin and TRT do not REPRESENT majority's interests. They USE that majority for their own ends.

"Just who the insurgents are?" - good question. Are there any at all? Is it only local pooyais who want their power back?

They can surely mobilize mobs from their fiefdoms and give them free rides, food, t-shirts, etc. Does it make a popular uprising?

Exactly the same "popular support" as when Thaksin bused two three hundred thousand farmers to Sanam Luang. Or when mob blocaded The Nation building.

Any government in a "democracy" uses the majority for their own ends. As Churchill said, Democracy is not perfect, it's just the best form of government tried yet. You could, I suppose, argue that Singapore's model of a benevolent dictatorship is better, but that is a rarity, and of course is open for even more abuse of power.

The Democrats (and Sondhi) also bused supporters to demonstrate against the former PM, and there have also been reports of vote buying from that side of the political spectrum too.

I am not trying to defend Taksin (really, I'm not!), but I get saddened when I repeatedly only hear one side of the story. Especially so now that control of the press makes it illegal for much of the dissent that is probably out there to be aired.

[sriracha john]

It's Thais who think that his corruption got completely out of hand. They DO remember all previous governments very well.

Do bear in mind as well the corruption stats posted on another thread here; in spite of everything we read about, Transparency International seems to think that corruption decreased under his administration. And that is with better access to information than before.

Do you mean this thread?? I somehow read it differently and that corruption increased with Thaksin.

Thailand Corruption Index Worsens

Germany-based Transparency International

..Thailand gets 3.6 out of 10 in the 2006 Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI)

Last year, Thailand's CPI score was 3.8

The CPI score relates to perceptions of the degree of corruption as seen by business people and country analysts and ranges between 10 (highly clean) and 0 (highly corrupt).

Juree said a local survey of Thai people pointed to a more serious corruption problem over the past five years.

[Plus]

Oh and the struggle for hearts and minds right now is not purely about Mr. Thaksin and some leaders of the coup. It is far more complicated than this.

You get a big star.. You understand the situation. Far more complicated and in a lot of ways it does not involve Thaksin or the leaders of the coup..

Everything people don't understand appears complicated. Then they can always refer to "complexity of the situation" when they have nothing to say, and even can form a club with secret handshakes. No one else would have a clue what they are on about.

Transparency International seems to think that corruption decreased under his administration.

Not according to latest report where Thailand slipped a few places in global rankings.

This is why I pointed to the fact that it is much harder these days, thankfully, to get away with it because it is so much harder to control the media.

Harder to control the media?!?!? Do you mean to say that Thaksin didn't control the media?!?!? That's why he bought ITV - to give it freedom....

The Democrats (and Sondhi) also bused supporters to demonstrate against the former PM, and there have also been reports of vote buying from that side of the political spectrum too.

Nonsense. At most people could get free water at PAD rallies.

If you think that Thaksin staged rallies and "Caravan of the poor" campsite were just the same as PAD rallies, then we have a fundamental difference in judgement that would never be reconciled. If you also think that media was free under TRT government, then I doubt we can understand each other at all.

[Old Man River]

Oh and the struggle for hearts and minds right now is not purely about Mr. Thaksin and some leaders of the coup. It is far more complicated than this.

You get a big star.. You understand the situation. Far more complicated and in a lot of ways it does not involve Thaksin or the leaders of the coup..

The big question I have is how sustainable is "ucpountry" as a voting block? When we think of the south, we think Democrates, and it has stayed that way for quite some time. The north and east, in the past, has been about selling their votes. Politicians never needed a platform, but for now, the needs of those upcountry must be addressed. Is this for the long haul?

Your thoughts?

[Meerkat]

Do you mean this thread?? I somehow read it differently and that corruption increased with Thaksin.

Thailand Corruption Index Worsens

Germany-based Transparency International

..Thailand gets 3.6 out of 10 in the 2006 Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI)

Last year, Thailand's CPI score was 3.8

The CPI score relates to perceptions of the degree of corruption as seen by business people and country analysts and ranges between 10 (highly clean) and 0 (highly corrupt).

Juree said a local survey of Thai people pointed to a more serious corruption problem over the past five years.

I was actually referring to this one:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=91536

but I'll post the relevant analysis of the numbers here too:

Reply to Mr. Sriracha John's comments on the “General Topics" thread (closed)

<<hopefully with the "role model of corruption" gone, Thailand can begin to make efforts to improve it's standing.>>

A few basic FACTS about the“Corruption Perception Index" (PCI)

PCI scores during 6 pre-Taxin years: 1995=2.79; 1996=3.33; 1997=3.06; 1998=3.0; 1999=3.0; 2000=3.2

Arithmetic mean of the PCIs over 6 years (1995-2000)=3.06

PCI scores during 6 years of Taxin as PM: 2001=3.2; 2002=3.2; 2003=3.3; 2004=3.6; 2005=3.8; 2006=3.6

Arithmetic mean of the PCI over the last 6 years (2001-2006) =3.45

Source: http://ww1.transparency.org/cpi/2005/2005.10.18.cpi.en.html

The 3.8 score in 2005 was the highest ever. The 2006 PCI of 3.6 was still higher than the highest pre-Taksin PCI of 3.33. I am not a Taksin fan but facts are facts. BTW, there is no rigorous, quantitative way to measure “corruption”. The numbers are based on opinions (highly subjective).

Any (intelligent) comments Mr. Sriracha?

Perhaps the most important thing that we can pull from those numbers, however, is that, in spite of a broad upward trend in the freedom from corruption scores over the last decade, Thailand is still seen as fundamentally corrupt (my judgement of a score under 5) - regardless of who's been in charge.

[Johpa]

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep, voting on what to eat for dinner...

Liberty is a well armed sheep contesting the vote. - Thomas Jefferson

Actually attributed more often to Ben Franklin.

[lukamar]

The Democrats (and Sondhi) also bused supporters to demonstrate against the former PM, and there have also been reports of vote buying from that side of the political spectrum too.

Nonsense. At most people could get free water at PAD rallies.

If you think that Thaksin staged rallies and "Caravan of the poor" campsite were just the same as PAD rallies, then we have a fundamental difference in judgement that would never be reconciled. If you also think that media was free under TRT government, then I doubt we can understand each other at all.

Plus.. The poster never mentioned PAD, the Caravan of the Poor or the TRT in his post. You have to read the post before you reply. He stated everyone busses supporters and everyone buys votes, which is quite true at least in the North, it was a simple statement that you somehow bent into an anti-Thaksin anti-TRT tirade. You have to look in both hands to find the truth - it's not all black or white.

And the media was freer under Thaksin, although censored, just look back a few months at the Nation or the BKKPost and compare what they printed then to what they print about the government now.

[ColPyat]

The big question I have is how sustainable is "ucpountry" as a voting block? When we think of the south, we think Democrates, and it has stayed that way for quite some time. The north and east, in the past, has been about selling their votes. Politicians never needed a platform, but for now, the needs of those upcountry must be addressed. Is this for the long haul?

Your thoughts?

Thaksin has changed all that.

In addition to traditional votebying, he has introduced policy platforms, and has raised expactations of those northerners and Isaarnites to the role of government. That is why he has a bigger support than any other politician/party ever had in those areas.

For the other political parties there is no escaping this for Thailand new trend. If they cannot think very fast of forming policies and ways how to communicate them, we very possibly have an aera of unrest originating from these areas and sectors of society.

The situation right now is potentially far more dangerous than the '91 coup. Different than '91, where only the city was involved and upcountry apathetic, now the whole country is politicised. The present government has to achieve results fast. Surayudh's apology to the south was a good thing, but words are not enough. The far more difficult thing will be real results, results that go further than a ban of alcohol advertisement (several magazines had to close down already as a direct result of this).

[Plus]

Re. corruption. I read an article just a few days ago and Thailand's standing relevant to other countries has changed for worse. I also don't know if PCI accounts for policy corruption - when the government legally puts in place laws to benefit their own private businesses registered to their children and/or maids.

Take this example - Thaksin successfully pushed for open sky policy and for abolition of minimum airfare charge just in time to establish Thaiairasia, Thailand's first budget airline, part of Shin Corp.

Any government in a "democracy" uses the majority for their own ends.

Not quite. In multiparty countries each party represent some interests - regional, ethnical, religious, whatever. Even in the US big parties appear to have an unbreachable ideological divide. Small groups like homosexuals or blacks then decide which party's ideology is more suited to their interests.

[Meerkat]

Not according to latest report where Thailand slipped a few places in global rankings.

I refer you to my last post above.

Harder to control the media?!?!? Do you mean to say that Thaksin didn't control the media?!?!? That's why he bought ITV - to give it freedom....

He may have wanted to control the media. He certainly didn't succeed, because it is impossible to do so nowadays with the likes of the internet and satellite TV, as you appear to have missed from my earlier post. I can only think of one instance recently where TV feeds were cut, and it wasn't under Taksin's rule, and even then the internet was still allowed to operate, albeit with certain restrictions.

Nonsense. At most people could get free water at PAD rallies.

If you think that Thaksin staged rallies and "Caravan of the poor" campsite were just the same as PAD rallies, then we have a fundamental difference in judgement that would never be reconciled. If you also think that media was free under TRT government, then I doubt we can understand each other at all.

People were bused in, and there was vote-buying, on both sides of the pro/anti TRT divide.

Anyway, this is proving to be an interesting thread, which I hope is meeting with the Mods' approval vis-a-vis the current restrictions.

[Plus]

Not according to latest report where Thailand slipped a few places in global rankings.

I refer you to my last post above.

CORRUPTION INDEX

Kingdom falls in world graft ranking

Published on Nov 6, 2006

Slips to 63rd from 59th last year; ranks ninth of 21 in Asia

Thailand has slipped to 63rd this year from last year's 59th in a global survey on

corruption, the local chapter of Germany-based Transparency International, which conducted the survey, said yesterday.

http://nationmultimedia.com/search/page.ne...amp;id=30018146

Harder to control the media?!?!? Do you mean to say that Thaksin didn't control the media?!?!? That's why he bought ITV - to give it freedom....

He may have wanted to control the media. He certainly didn't succeed, because it is impossible to do so nowadays with the likes of the internet and satellite TV, as you appear to have missed from my earlier post.

I missed your reference to Internet and satellite TV, true.

Thaksin had COMPLETE control of Thai TV channels - the ONLY media with unlimited access to his support base upcountry. People in areas with access to Internet - urban centers - voted against TRT, there were also the once who could find a shop with ASTV dish or join Sondhi's rallies, or buy his VCDs.

Generals are far more timid in using media as a propaganda tool. They are too polite to shoot, and too polite to brainwash people. Which is a good thing.

Incindentally but the first article from The Nation I read over lunch started:

HARD TALK

MCOT can lead the way in editorial independence

One of the most effective weapons used by former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra to buttress his political power was near absolute control of the state-owned mass media.

I have no idea how you can form an exactly opposite perception.

People were bused in, and there was vote-buying, on both sides of the pro/anti TRT divide.

Not at PAD rallies. I think you are denying the reality when you say that Democrats were paying for votes on the scale of TRT, especially in middle class urban areas and the South - their support base. If their voters were after money, Democrats would have never stood a chance.

Edited November 7, 2006 by Plus