Israel PM Netanyahu rebukes deputy military chief over Holocaust speech

[Morch]

Major-General Yair Golan's comments that his country was showing signs of "Nazi-esque behaviour" ​is just the latest crack to be detected in the foundations.

It makes no difference what he did in the past. He may be beginning to see the radical Likhud agenda as the real threat to the future of Israel and Jews all over the world.

A voice that should be listened to; just as Americans should have listened to Eisenhower when he warned of the dangers of the military-industrial complex.

Golan did not actually use the phrase "Nazi-esque behaviour". It appears in the OP as either being part of Netanyahu's criticism of Golan's speech or an editorial choice of words. Far as I can tell, the latter.

The differences of opinion with certain politicians, as exhibited in Golan's speech, do not quite align with the Left vs. Right political divisions. At least two of Netanyahu's ministers expressed support of Golan - both members of the Likud Party.

Golan didn't use the phrase?

Back up your claim with a credible source, please.

Here's a more extensive quote from the Guardian: "The Holocaust must lead us to think about our public lives, and even more than that, it must guide anyone who has the ability, not only those who wish to bear public responsibility.

“Because if there is anything that frightens me in the remembrance of the Holocaust, it is discerning nauseating trends that took place in Europe in general, and in Germany specifically back then, 70, 80 and 90 years ago, and seeing evidence of them here among us in the year 2016.

“After all, there is nothing simpler and easier than hating the foreigner, there is nothing easier and simpler than arousing fears and intimidating, there is nothing easier and simpler than becoming bestial, forgoing principles and becoming smug.”

So, no, he didn't say Nazi-esque behavior. But what does "seeing evidence of them here among us in the year 2016" mean if not that or something like that?

It means that there's a difference between warning of trends which might lead there (while calling for them to be addressed) and drawing the direct parallel which is implied by the wrongly attributed phrase. That some posters wish to make claims Israel is equivalent to the Nazis is nothing new - but it is not quite what Golan was saying.

[Morch]

Major-General Yair Golan's comments that his country was showing signs of "Nazi-esque behaviour" ​is just the latest crack to be detected in the foundations.

It makes no difference what he did in the past. He may be beginning to see the radical Likhud agenda as the real threat to the future of Israel and Jews all over the world.

A voice that should be listened to; just as Americans should have listened to Eisenhower when he warned of the dangers of the military-industrial complex.

Golan did not actually use the phrase "Nazi-esque behaviour". It appears in the OP as either being part of Netanyahu's criticism of Golan's speech or an editorial choice of words. Far as I can tell, the latter.

The differences of opinion with certain politicians, as exhibited in Golan's speech, do not quite align with the Left vs. Right political divisions. At least two of Netanyahu's ministers expressed support of Golan - both members of the Likud Party.

Whether Golan or the editor of the OP used the term "Nazi-esque behaviour" to paraphrase ..so what?

I thought that was the idea of a public forum : you comment on the OP and others' comments, air your thoughts and views provided that you don't drift too far off topic. This is clearly not such a case. The actual words are in the OP.

This is just nitpicking obfuscating pedantry because you disagree with Golan's comments.

Are you going to repeat that nonsense about me objecting to Golan's comments many more times? I have actually commented on his words and my opinion of them. What I object to is attempts to spin his words as expression of support to agendas which are definitely not his.

Insisting that it doesn't really matter what Golan actually said is just another way to hijack his words. Nothing out of the ordinary when it comes to your posting style.

Spewing the usual buzzwords is not an argument.

[Jingthing]

It means that there's a difference between warning of trends which might lead there (while calling for them to be addressed) and drawing the direct parallel which is implied by the wrongly attributed phrase. That some posters wish to make claims Israel is equivalent to the Nazis is nothing new - but it is not quite what Golan was saying.

Indeed, but he did give people that were going to play that spin game some pretty good AMMUNITION to do so. In a way Netanyahu may have made that worse by overreacting to it.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Jingthing

[rgs2001uk]

^^^^, for our American based readers and contributors, it may come as some surprise, there are some Brits who dont even know what the word Yid means.

[Throatwobbler]

Prepare for the usual Israeli supporters accusing anynoe who questions the actions of the Israeli government as anti-semetic.

I for one am fed up of listening to the israeli propaganda to justify their hypocricy, note I did not use the word Jew.

So hostile.

I don't recall even one member over many years saying everyone who criticizes Israeli government policies is a Jew hater.

Anyway, why waste time?

Ignore list time.

Putting everyone you don't agree with on an ignore list the act of school boy who know he is losing when trying to debate with adults. Pathetic.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Throatwobbler

[Jingthing]

Anyway ... regardless of the predictable noxious spin on Golan's words, Israel is most definitely NOT the same as Nazi Germany!

Did you know Israel has QUEEN?

Edited May 10, 2016 by Jingthing

[ilostmypassword]

Anyway ... regardless of the predictable noxious spin on Golan's words, Israel is most definitely NOT the same as Nazi Germany!

Did you know Israel has QUEEN?

On the west bank it's more like apartheid south africa

[Jingthing]

Good that you got that original talking point off your chest.

[ilostmypassword]

Good that you got that original talking point off your chest.

First off, you raised the issue by invoking Nazi Germany.

Second, I notice that when you get cornered you just use snark. If the point isn't original, and it isn't, that's only because it's so obvious. Conditions and laws in the West Bank resemble those of the apartheid era in South Africa.You could try to give a substantive rebuttal of why that's not so. And good luck with that.

[Jingthing]

Good that you got that original talking point off your chest.

First off, you raised the issue by invoking Nazi Germany.

Second, I notice that when you get cornered you just use snark. If the point isn't original, and it isn't, that's only because it's so obvious. Conditions and laws in the West Bank resemble those of the apartheid era in South Africa.You could try to give a substantive rebuttal of why that's not so. And good luck with that.

I raised the point?

No, I did not. This entire THREAD did that already.

The topic is actually about the remarks of General Golan on Israel's holocaust remembrance day and how many people have taken those words, some usual suspects spinning them to support a hateful agenda of pushing the lie that Israel is equivalent to Nazi Germany.

As far as the apartheid equivalency thing on the west bank, dude, that indeed is a different thing, and we've discussed that ad nauseum on these Israel topic threads for years from all the angles.

Unless someone has something NEW to add to that, there isn't anything else to talk about. You certainly didn't have anything new.

Perhaps you actually believe there is one person reading these threads that hasn't heard that characterization before?

Wow, I never thought of that. Gee whiz, golly!

Personally, I'm not interested in discussing that characterization with you on this thread or really any thread unless there's something new that relates to it, or perhaps a dedicated thread about it (unlikely) which presumably might be about something new related to that tired cliche.

How can you imagine I was "cornered" by a CLICHE? Come on now, try to be less disingenuous.

Cheers.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Jingthing

[AYJAYDEE]

Good that you got that original talking point off your chest.

First off, you raised the issue by invoking Nazi Germany.

Second, I notice that when you get cornered you just use snark. If the point isn't original, and it isn't, that's only because it's so obvious. Conditions and laws in the West Bank resemble those of the apartheid era in South Africa.You could try to give a substantive rebuttal of why that's not so. And good luck with that.

I raised the point?

No, I did not. This entire THREAD did that already.

The topic is actually about the remarks of General Golan on Israel's holocaust remembrance day and how many people have taken those words, some usual suspects spinning them to support a hateful agenda of pushing the lie that Israel is equivalent to Nazi Germany.

As far as the apartheid equivalency thing on the west bank, dude, that indeed is a different thing, and we've discussed that ad nauseum on these Israel topic threads for years from all the angles.

Unless someone has something NEW to add to that, there isn't anything else to talk about. You certainly didn't have anything new.

Perhaps you actually believe there is one person reading these threads that hasn't heard that characterization before?

Wow, I never thought of that. Gee whiz, golly!

Personally, I'm not interested in discussing that characterization with you on this thread or really any thread unless there's something new that relates to it, or perhaps a dedicated thread about it (unlikely).

How can you imagine I was "cornered" by a CLICHE? Come on now, try to be less disingenuous.

Cheers.

feigning boredom wont cut it pal. you avoid discussion because it doesnt fit with your idealized view of Israel

[Scott]

Off-topic post removed.

[Morch]

It means that there's a difference between warning of trends which might lead there (while calling for them to be addressed) and drawing the direct parallel which is implied by the wrongly attributed phrase. That some posters wish to make claims Israel is equivalent to the Nazis is nothing new - but it is not quite what Golan was saying.

Indeed, but he did give people that were going to play that spin game some pretty good AMMUNITION to do so. In a way Netanyahu may have made that worse by overreacting to it.

Err.."may have"? This is Netanyahu, it's what he does. One of his main "achievements" is eroding the moral value Holocaust remembrance by regularly invoking it as an object of comparison, no matter how trivial the occasion.

What happened in this context wasn't different. Initially, Netanyahu simply expressed disagreement with Golan, nothing out of the ordinary. But as members of his coalition began to fan the flames, he didn't want to be "left behind". Basically, he was ditching his duty as Prime Minister, and shooting for some extra PR points. Nothing new there.

[Jingthing]

Yeah, he's a clumsy politician. Hopefully, someday Israel can do better.

[Morch]

Yeah, he's a clumsy politician. Hopefully, someday Israel can do better.

I don't think he's clumsy. Simply got different priorities (mainly personal political survival) and knows how to play the home crowd.

[Jingthing]

Yeah, he's a clumsy politician. Hopefully, someday Israel can do better.

I don't think he's clumsy. Simply got different priorities (mainly personal political survival) and knows how to play the home crowd.

Well, I see what you're saying, but a really gifted politician could manage that while at the same time not committing gaffes that are disliked and mocked internationally. Not only talking about types that would hate any message from any Israeli PM. You can't ever please people like that. Maybe that's too much to expect of any politician ...

Edited May 11, 2016 by Jingthing

[ilostmypassword]

Yeah, he's a clumsy politician. Hopefully, someday Israel can do better.

I don't think he's clumsy. Simply got different priorities (mainly personal political survival) and knows how to play the home crowd.

I agree. I think his continuing electoral success shows that. The problem is as the Israeli populace and program gets more and more extreme he may run up against the limits of Western Europe's forbearance.

[Morch]

Yeah, he's a clumsy politician. Hopefully, someday Israel can do better.

I don't think he's clumsy. Simply got different priorities (mainly personal political survival) and knows how to play the home crowd.

Well, I see what you're saying, but a really gifted politician could manage that while at the same time not committing gaffes that are disliked and mocked internationally. Not only talking about types that would hate any message from any Israeli PM. You can't ever please people like that. Maybe that's too much to expect of any politician ...

I think it was Henry Kissinger who said "Israel has no foreign policy, only a domestic political system". In that light, consider Israel does not have a full-time and effective Foreign Affairs minister for quite some time now, the current deputy (nominally) minister, and Israel's embarrassment of an ambassador to the UN. This state of affairs is almost entirely down to domestic politics (more correctly, internal party politics).

[Jingthing]

Another list of 68 positive things about Israel, as Israel is now 68 years young, as a way to counterbalance the spin to how some people are taking General Golan's speech:

http://forward.com/opinion/340242/68-reasons-to-respect-if-not-love-israel-on-its-68th-birthday/?attribution=home-hero-item-text-2

Like other countries, Israel is a work in progress. Blemishes abound and Israelis are the first to criticize and question their own shortcomings: political corruption, a dysfunctional electoral system, the extortion and blackmail of the ultra-Orthodox parties, the rampant economic iniquities, the status of Israeli Arabs, the treatment of Ethiopian immigrants, the situation of Palestinians in the West Bank, the plight of African refugees. The problems are longstanding and a searing indictment of Israeli leadership.

But show me another country on the planet that, within such a relatively short time and against such daunting odds, has done what Israel has achieved since its inception in 1948. So, in honor of its birthday, here are 68 reasons to respect, if not always love, the world’s one and only Jewish country.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Jingthing

[ilostmypassword]

Another list of 68 positive things about Israel, as Israel is now 68 years young, as a way to counterbalance the spin to how some people are taking General Golan's speech:

http://forward.com/opinion/340242/68-reasons-to-respect-if-not-love-israel-on-its-68th-birthday/?attribution=home-hero-item-text-2

Like other countries, Israel is a work in progress. Blemishes abound and Israelis are the first to criticize and question their own shortcomings: political corruption, a dysfunctional electoral system, the extortion and blackmail of the ultra-Orthodox parties, the rampant economic iniquities, the status of Israeli Arabs, the treatment of Ethiopian immigrants, the situation of Palestinians in the West Bank, the plight of African refugees. The problems are longstanding and a searing indictment of Israeli leadership.

But show me another country on the planet that, within such a relatively short time and against such daunting odds, has done what Israel has achieved since its inception in 1948. So, in honor of its birthday, here are 68 reasons to respect, if not always love, the world’s one and only Jewish country.

zionlovely.jpg

No doubt Israel has achieved great things although that list has some dubious entries ("On Yom Kippur, almost the entire country shuts down for 24 hours: all stores, cafés, restaurants and other places of entertainment. Traffic is halted as children take over the streets on their bicycles.")

But there's a question of direction. Israelis are becoming more racist as polls show. The USA had a horrible racism problem, now it's bad. But it is getting better. And as long as Israel continues its colonial program. that racism problem will only get worse and will lead them in the future to behave even more badly.

[Scott]

Off-topic, baiting, inflammatory posts and replies removed.

[Jingthing]

Israel has the Palestinians encaged. It has illegally occupied their land in alleged self-defense for a long time and is constantly expanding this illegal occupation against UN Resolutions. It dictates what material, food and medicine is allowed in and what is allowed out. Israel attacks and murders people in international waters who are bringing food and supplies to the Palestinians. Israel kills Palestinians at a ratio of 10 - 1 or better. Israel is a nuclear State contrary to UN Resolutions. Israel used Canadian Passports to send Mossad agents around the world murdering people whom it considered enemies of the State. Israel is the 21st Century Nazi regime. They are nobodies friend.

I'm pretty sure your own country, as well as the one you're posting from does have solid relationship with Israel. But that little factoid shouldn't hinder your ravings.

As predicted earlier, this topic would be a great platform for anyone wishing to air such views, even as they do not directly relate to the OP.

Israel, actually, has LOTS of friends.

Happy 68th.

A country that is truly alone does not house 86 embassies; it does not continuously host presidents and prime ministers and foreign ministers and parliamentary delegations from around the world; and it is not constantly being visited by bluechip business delegations keen on doing business in the country or benefiting from its technology.

...The Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement would like to isolate Israel as its forebear the Arab Boycott tried to do before it; but it is failing as its forebear failed.

It is failing because there are reasonable people out there able to see the movement for what it is – a movement that wants to bring about Israel’s end. And it is failing because 68 years after independence, Israel is a serious country of some 8.5 million people, with much to offer the world.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Israel-at-68-Not-isolated-but-badly-misunderstood-453697

Edited May 12, 2016 by Jingthing

[Morch]

@ilostmypassword

Israel's political shift to the right is nothing new, as is the accompanying religious trends. It would be misguided to lay all the responsibility for that on right wing policies, religion, ideology or Netanyahu himself. Both the Palestinians and the Israeli opposition contributed significantly to the way Israeli attitudes and perceptions are currently shaped. The shift to the right did not occur in a vacuum.

For those seeing it as a negative development, the question is how this shift is to be best addressed. IMO, many of the views aired on these topics are counterproductive to progress. Regardless if one wishes to hold that all current circumstances being Israel's fault, this is hardly relevant to the above. Fact is people do not respond well to being demonized. Especially not when it is so often blatantly disconnected from reality. In this sense, a lot of the stuff thrown at Netanyahu, actually strengthens his position (sort of like Trump). With regard to both sides, there are relatively less efforts made to win hearts and minds, achieve a workable middle ground and settle for imperfect compromises.

The usual historical comparisons are mostly aimed at further attempts at demonization. Jews in Europe were not locked in a longstanding violent conflict with Germany, the same goes for the USA. There are objective factors contributing to current trends in Israeli public opinion.

It ought to be pointed out that similar trends are prevalent among Palestinians. Again, with valid reasons and all. And again, both demonizing and ignoring faults do little to promote the chances of realistic positive changes. Rather, they empower forces and trends contributing to the continuation of the conflict.

To go back to the OP, highlighting worrying trends and calling for them to be addressed is on thing. Using the same to promote an agenda of hate-mongering and demonization is both disconnected from the spirit in which things were said, and counterproductive as it furthers gaps between sides.

[dexterm]

@ilostmypassword

Israel's political shift to the right is nothing new, as is the accompanying religious trends. It would be misguided to lay all the responsibility for that on right wing policies, religion, ideology or Netanyahu himself. Both the Palestinians and the Israeli opposition contributed significantly to the way Israeli attitudes and perceptions are currently shaped. The shift to the right did not occur in a vacuum.

For those seeing it as a negative development, the question is how this shift is to be best addressed. IMO, many of the views aired on these topics are counterproductive to progress. Regardless if one wishes to hold that all current circumstances being Israel's fault, this is hardly relevant to the above. Fact is people do not respond well to being demonized. Especially not when it is so often blatantly disconnected from reality. In this sense, a lot of the stuff thrown at Netanyahu, actually strengthens his position (sort of like Trump). With regard to both sides, there are relatively less efforts made to win hearts and minds, achieve a workable middle ground and settle for imperfect compromises.

The usual historical comparisons are mostly aimed at further attempts at demonization. Jews in Europe were not locked in a longstanding violent conflict with Germany, the same goes for the USA. There are objective factors contributing to current trends in Israeli public opinion.

It ought to be pointed out that similar trends are prevalent among Palestinians. Again, with valid reasons and all. And again, both demonizing and ignoring faults do little to promote the chances of realistic positive changes. Rather, they empower forces and trends contributing to the continuation of the conflict.

To go back to the OP, highlighting worrying trends and calling for them to be addressed is on thing. Using the same to promote an agenda of hate-mongering and demonization is both disconnected from the spirit in which things were said, and counterproductive as it furthers gaps between sides.

I think it is the irony of the Nazi comparison that shocks people the most; certainly it disturbs me. That the Jewish people had suffered so much from pogroms in Russia, then the Holocaust in Nazi Germany, to have them flee as refugees to Palestine to inflict suffering and ethnic cleansing on the resident population there making them refugees in turn.

It goes to show that if you scratch the surface of any nationality, race or religion, you will find a racist monster lurking. No race or religion has a premium on righteousness.

As Maj Gen Golan said in his OP comments: "There is nothing easier than to behave like an animal and to act sanctimoniously."

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.718043

Your last paragraph implies that the Palestinian handcuffed and shackled with an IDF boot on the back of his neck must promise not to holler and protest his occupation so loudly then the IDF may ease up.

Edited May 12, 2016 by dexterm

[Morch]

@ilostmypassword

Israel's political shift to the right is nothing new, as is the accompanying religious trends. It would be misguided to lay all the responsibility for that on right wing policies, religion, ideology or Netanyahu himself. Both the Palestinians and the Israeli opposition contributed significantly to the way Israeli attitudes and perceptions are currently shaped. The shift to the right did not occur in a vacuum.

For those seeing it as a negative development, the question is how this shift is to be best addressed. IMO, many of the views aired on these topics are counterproductive to progress. Regardless if one wishes to hold that all current circumstances being Israel's fault, this is hardly relevant to the above. Fact is people do not respond well to being demonized. Especially not when it is so often blatantly disconnected from reality. In this sense, a lot of the stuff thrown at Netanyahu, actually strengthens his position (sort of like Trump). With regard to both sides, there are relatively less efforts made to win hearts and minds, achieve a workable middle ground and settle for imperfect compromises.

The usual historical comparisons are mostly aimed at further attempts at demonization. Jews in Europe were not locked in a longstanding violent conflict with Germany, the same goes for the USA. There are objective factors contributing to current trends in Israeli public opinion.

It ought to be pointed out that similar trends are prevalent among Palestinians. Again, with valid reasons and all. And again, both demonizing and ignoring faults do little to promote the chances of realistic positive changes. Rather, they empower forces and trends contributing to the continuation of the conflict.

To go back to the OP, highlighting worrying trends and calling for them to be addressed is on thing. Using the same to promote an agenda of hate-mongering and demonization is both disconnected from the spirit in which things were said, and counterproductive as it furthers gaps between sides.

I think it is the irony of the Nazi comparison that shocks people the most; certainly it disturbs me. That the Jewish people had suffered so much from pogroms in Russia, then the Holocaust in Nazi Germany, to have them flee as refugees to Palestine to inflict suffering and ethnic cleansing on the resident population there making them refugees in turn.

It goes to show that if you scratch the surface of any nationality, race or religion, you will find a racist monster lurking. No race or religion has a premium on righteousness.

As Maj Gen Golan said in his OP comments: "There is nothing easier than to behave like an animal and to act sanctimoniously."

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.718043

Your last paragraph implies that the Palestinian handcuffed and shackled with an IDF boot on the back of his neck must promise not to holler and protest his occupation so loudly then the IDF may ease up.

Yeah well...call me a skeptic, but doubt that any comparison vilifying Israel disturbs you. More like another bashing tool.

While I'm not one of those putting neither Israel or the IDF on a moral pedestal, Golan certainly is. Cherry picking the bits of the speech fitting to the usual agenda and views ain't gonna make it different.

Apparently, the "any" does not include the Palestinians - not accountable for anything, not responsible for anything, do no wrong. And even if they do - its all Israel's fault, and hence, justified.

My last paragraph does not imply any of the contrived nonsense posted. As everyone is aware, the Palestinians do more than holler and protest. There's often pride expressed in violent actions, no matter how vile. Also, even hollering and protesting do not have to be an all encompassing demonization of the other.

My comments are demonstrated perfectly in your reply - there is nothing in it that contributes to conflict resolution. It is all about hatred and rejection of the other.

Same author was linked and quoted by yourself recently, think it applies:

To Regain Its Credibility, Israel's Left Must Hold Palestinians Accountable for Violence

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.685482

[dexterm]

@ilostmypassword

Israel's political shift to the right is nothing new, as is the accompanying religious trends. It would be misguided to lay all the responsibility for that on right wing policies, religion, ideology or Netanyahu himself. Both the Palestinians and the Israeli opposition contributed significantly to the way Israeli attitudes and perceptions are currently shaped. The shift to the right did not occur in a vacuum.

For those seeing it as a negative development, the question is how this shift is to be best addressed. IMO, many of the views aired on these topics are counterproductive to progress. Regardless if one wishes to hold that all current circumstances being Israel's fault, this is hardly relevant to the above. Fact is people do not respond well to being demonized. Especially not when it is so often blatantly disconnected from reality. In this sense, a lot of the stuff thrown at Netanyahu, actually strengthens his position (sort of like Trump). With regard to both sides, there are relatively less efforts made to win hearts and minds, achieve a workable middle ground and settle for imperfect compromises.

The usual historical comparisons are mostly aimed at further attempts at demonization. Jews in Europe were not locked in a longstanding violent conflict with Germany, the same goes for the USA. There are objective factors contributing to current trends in Israeli public opinion.

It ought to be pointed out that similar trends are prevalent among Palestinians. Again, with valid reasons and all. And again, both demonizing and ignoring faults do little to promote the chances of realistic positive changes. Rather, they empower forces and trends contributing to the continuation of the conflict.

To go back to the OP, highlighting worrying trends and calling for them to be addressed is on thing. Using the same to promote an agenda of hate-mongering and demonization is both disconnected from the spirit in which things were said, and counterproductive as it furthers gaps between sides.

I think it is the irony of the Nazi comparison that shocks people the most; certainly it disturbs me. That the Jewish people had suffered so much from pogroms in Russia, then the Holocaust in Nazi Germany, to have them flee as refugees to Palestine to inflict suffering and ethnic cleansing on the resident population there making them refugees in turn.

It goes to show that if you scratch the surface of any nationality, race or religion, you will find a racist monster lurking. No race or religion has a premium on righteousness.

As Maj Gen Golan said in his OP comments: "There is nothing easier than to behave like an animal and to act sanctimoniously."

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.718043

Your last paragraph implies that the Palestinian handcuffed and shackled with an IDF boot on the back of his neck must promise not to holler and protest his occupation so loudly then the IDF may ease up.

Yeah well...call me a skeptic, but doubt that any comparison vilifying Israel disturbs you. More like another bashing tool.

While I'm not one of those putting neither Israel or the IDF on a moral pedestal, Golan certainly is. Cherry picking the bits of the speech fitting to the usual agenda and views ain't gonna make it different.

Apparently, the "any" does not include the Palestinians - not accountable for anything, not responsible for anything, do no wrong. And even if they do - its all Israel's fault, and hence, justified.

My last paragraph does not imply any of the contrived nonsense posted. As everyone is aware, the Palestinians do more than holler and protest. There's often pride expressed in violent actions, no matter how vile. Also, even hollering and protesting do not have to be an all encompassing demonization of the other.

My comments are demonstrated perfectly in your reply - there is nothing in it that contributes to conflict resolution. It is all about hatred and rejection of the other.

Same author was linked and quoted by yourself recently, think it applies:

To Regain Its Credibility, Israel's Left Must Hold Palestinians Accountable for Violence

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.685482

Yes, you are a skeptic. It is the irony of a people so persecuted going on to persecute others that first drew my attention to this conflict. Maybe it's the battered child syndrome. I used to think Israelis were a bunch of peace loving folk dancing victims, until I visited the area, did some research and realized the great Israeli hoax: that they play the victim when they are in fact the aggressor.

Yes, it is mainly Israel's fault. They are the ones doing the invading, colonizing, occupying and ethnic cleansing not the other way around. They are the ones who "behave like an animal and to act sanctimoniously." according to the OP Maj General. That's the irony I am talking about again.

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.718043

I believe we are beginning to drift off topic in your last paragraph and quote, and I know you would not want that...you have chastised us often enough about it.

Edited May 12, 2016 by dexterm

[ilostmypassword]

@ilostmypassword

Israel's political shift to the right is nothing new, as is the accompanying religious trends. It would be misguided to lay all the responsibility for that on right wing policies, religion, ideology or Netanyahu himself. Both the Palestinians and the Israeli opposition contributed significantly to the way Israeli attitudes and perceptions are currently shaped. The shift to the right did not occur in a vacuum.

For those seeing it as a negative development, the question is how this shift is to be best addressed. IMO, many of the views aired on these topics are counterproductive to progress. Regardless if one wishes to hold that all current circumstances being Israel's fault, this is hardly relevant to the above. Fact is people do not respond well to being demonized. Especially not when it is so often blatantly disconnected from reality. In this sense, a lot of the stuff thrown at Netanyahu, actually strengthens his position (sort of like Trump). With regard to both sides, there are relatively less efforts made to win hearts and minds, achieve a workable middle ground and settle for imperfect compromises.

The usual historical comparisons are mostly aimed at further attempts at demonization. Jews in Europe were not locked in a longstanding violent conflict with Germany, the same goes for the USA. There are objective factors contributing to current trends in Israeli public opinion.

It ought to be pointed out that similar trends are prevalent among Palestinians. Again, with valid reasons and all. And again, both demonizing and ignoring faults do little to promote the chances of realistic positive changes. Rather, they empower forces and trends contributing to the continuation of the conflict.

To go back to the OP, highlighting worrying trends and calling for them to be addressed is on thing. Using the same to promote an agenda of hate-mongering and demonization is both disconnected from the spirit in which things were said, and counterproductive as it furthers gaps between sides.

I think it is the irony of the Nazi comparison that shocks people the most; certainly it disturbs me. That the Jewish people had suffered so much from pogroms in Russia, then the Holocaust in Nazi Germany, to have them flee as refugees to Palestine to inflict suffering and ethnic cleansing on the resident population there making them refugees in turn.

It goes to show that if you scratch the surface of any nationality, race or religion, you will find a racist monster lurking. No race or religion has a premium on righteousness.

As Maj Gen Golan said in his OP comments: "There is nothing easier than to behave like an animal and to act sanctimoniously."

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.718043

Your last paragraph implies that the Palestinian handcuffed and shackled with an IDF boot on the back of his neck must promise not to holler and protest his occupation so loudly then the IDF may ease up.

Yeah well...call me a skeptic, but doubt that any comparison vilifying Israel disturbs you. More like another bashing tool.

While I'm not one of those putting neither Israel or the IDF on a moral pedestal, Golan certainly is. Cherry picking the bits of the speech fitting to the usual agenda and views ain't gonna make it different.

Apparently, the "any" does not include the Palestinians - not accountable for anything, not responsible for anything, do no wrong. And even if they do - its all Israel's fault, and hence, justified.

My last paragraph does not imply any of the contrived nonsense posted. As everyone is aware, the Palestinians do more than holler and protest. There's often pride expressed in violent actions, no matter how vile. Also, even hollering and protesting do not have to be an all encompassing demonization of the other.

My comments are demonstrated perfectly in your reply - there is nothing in it that contributes to conflict resolution. It is all about hatred and rejection of the other.

Same author was linked and quoted by yourself recently, think it applies:

To Regain Its Credibility, Israel's Left Must Hold Palestinians Accountable for Violence

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.685482

Let's take another case of a Muslim people rebelling against an occupying power: the Uighurs in Xanjing, Western China. There the Chinese government is sending in huge numbers of Han Chinese to settle the area. The Han are given all sorts of preferential treatment. In effect, it's colonization. The Uighurs are treated as 3rd class citizens. The Uighurs have responded by committing horrifying acts of violence against innocent civilians in other parts of China. Oddly enough, outside of China, you don't hear many people making the argument that the Uighurs and the Chinese government have an equal claim to being on the side of justice.. Most people recognize that the onus lies with the Chinese. While desperate people will engage in desperate and evil acts, ultimately it's a reaction, not an initiative.

Throughout history, this is a common pattern of how indigenous people react to colonization all over the world. What makes the case of Israelis vs. Palestinians special?

[JingerBen]

Major-General Yair Golan was quoted as saying "If there's something that frightens me about Holocaust rememberance it's the recognition of the nauseating processes that occurred in Europe in general, and particularly in Germany, back then, 70, 80 and 90 years ago- and finding signs of them here among us today in 2016."

Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu took exception to that and "slammed" him for suggesting that the country was showing signs of "Nazi-esque behavior."

Golan's warning - coming from a senior official - is an encouraging sign that the radical Zionists and hard-line Likudniks have some growing opposition within Israel as well as worldwide.

[Morch]

@ilostmypassword

Israel's political shift to the right is nothing new, as is the accompanying religious trends. It would be misguided to lay all the responsibility for that on right wing policies, religion, ideology or Netanyahu himself. Both the Palestinians and the Israeli opposition contributed significantly to the way Israeli attitudes and perceptions are currently shaped. The shift to the right did not occur in a vacuum.

For those seeing it as a negative development, the question is how this shift is to be best addressed. IMO, many of the views aired on these topics are counterproductive to progress. Regardless if one wishes to hold that all current circumstances being Israel's fault, this is hardly relevant to the above. Fact is people do not respond well to being demonized. Especially not when it is so often blatantly disconnected from reality. In this sense, a lot of the stuff thrown at Netanyahu, actually strengthens his position (sort of like Trump). With regard to both sides, there are relatively less efforts made to win hearts and minds, achieve a workable middle ground and settle for imperfect compromises.

The usual historical comparisons are mostly aimed at further attempts at demonization. Jews in Europe were not locked in a longstanding violent conflict with Germany, the same goes for the USA. There are objective factors contributing to current trends in Israeli public opinion.

It ought to be pointed out that similar trends are prevalent among Palestinians. Again, with valid reasons and all. And again, both demonizing and ignoring faults do little to promote the chances of realistic positive changes. Rather, they empower forces and trends contributing to the continuation of the conflict.

To go back to the OP, highlighting worrying trends and calling for them to be addressed is on thing. Using the same to promote an agenda of hate-mongering and demonization is both disconnected from the spirit in which things were said, and counterproductive as it furthers gaps between sides.

I think it is the irony of the Nazi comparison that shocks people the most; certainly it disturbs me. That the Jewish people had suffered so much from pogroms in Russia, then the Holocaust in Nazi Germany, to have them flee as refugees to Palestine to inflict suffering and ethnic cleansing on the resident population there making them refugees in turn.

It goes to show that if you scratch the surface of any nationality, race or religion, you will find a racist monster lurking. No race or religion has a premium on righteousness.

As Maj Gen Golan said in his OP comments: "There is nothing easier than to behave like an animal and to act sanctimoniously."

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.718043

Your last paragraph implies that the Palestinian handcuffed and shackled with an IDF boot on the back of his neck must promise not to holler and protest his occupation so loudly then the IDF may ease up.

Yeah well...call me a skeptic, but doubt that any comparison vilifying Israel disturbs you. More like another bashing tool.

While I'm not one of those putting neither Israel or the IDF on a moral pedestal, Golan certainly is. Cherry picking the bits of the speech fitting to the usual agenda and views ain't gonna make it different.

Apparently, the "any" does not include the Palestinians - not accountable for anything, not responsible for anything, do no wrong. And even if they do - its all Israel's fault, and hence, justified.

My last paragraph does not imply any of the contrived nonsense posted. As everyone is aware, the Palestinians do more than holler and protest. There's often pride expressed in violent actions, no matter how vile. Also, even hollering and protesting do not have to be an all encompassing demonization of the other.

My comments are demonstrated perfectly in your reply - there is nothing in it that contributes to conflict resolution. It is all about hatred and rejection of the other.

Same author was linked and quoted by yourself recently, think it applies:

To Regain Its Credibility, Israel's Left Must Hold Palestinians Accountable for Violence

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.685482

Yes, you are a skeptic. It is the irony of a people so persecuted going on to persecute others that first drew my attention to this conflict. Maybe it's the battered child syndrome. I used to think Israelis were a bunch of peace loving folk dancing victims, until I visited the area, did some research and realized the great Israeli hoax: that they play the victim when they are in fact the aggressor.

Yes, it is mainly Israel's fault. They are the ones doing the invading, colonizing, occupying and ethnic cleansing not the other way around. They are the ones who "behave like an animal and to act sanctimoniously." according to the OP Maj General. That's the irony I am talking about again.

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.718043

I believe we are beginning to drift off topic in your last paragraph and quote, and I know you would not want that...you have chastised us often enough about it.

Try that on someone not familiar with your posts.

As said earlier, holding nonsense claims about all issues related to the conflict being Israel's fault, is irrelevant to my point. It does not change the absurdness or futility of demonization as foundation for conflict resolution. All it does is maintain the conflict and fuel it further. This is pretty much where are the energy evident in your posts is directed.

You can keep on cherry picking from Golan's speech, but the fact is that he does not subscribe to your views, nor does he lay one-sided blame accusations at Israel. His motivations are totally alien to yours, and his message is far more balanced. Simply a re-hash of the Biden speech topic.

As usual, going off topic is when no reasonable answers are available.

[Morch]

Let's take another case of a Muslim people rebelling against an occupying power: the Uighurs in Xanjing, Western China. There the Chinese government is sending in huge numbers of Han Chinese to settle the area. The Han are given all sorts of preferential treatment. In effect, it's colonization. The Uighurs are treated as 3rd class citizens. The Uighurs have responded by committing horrifying acts of violence against innocent civilians in other parts of China. Oddly enough, outside of China, you don't hear many people making the argument that the Uighurs and the Chinese government have an equal claim to being on the side of justice.. Most people recognize that the onus lies with the Chinese. While desperate people will engage in desperate and evil acts, ultimately it's a reaction, not an initiative.

Throughout history, this is a common pattern of how indigenous people react to colonization all over the world. What makes the case of Israelis vs. Palestinians special?

Comparisons are often of value not because cases are identical, but because they highlight both similarities and differences.

One does not see much by way of global public opinion being harnessed to support the Uighurs. At least nothing on par with the demonization campaigns related to the Palestinian struggle. Do the Chinese relate widely recognized cultural, historical or religious connections to support their claim? Were the Uighurs and the Chinese locked in a violent struggle for decades? And was there, at any point, any real danger posed to the PRC? Have the Uighurs, at any point, raised territorial counter claims with regard to the rest of China?

Ponder these points and it might answer your question.

If the post above was just the usual re-hash of "colonization" and "indigenous people" - those were discussed many a time on these topics. Allow me to fast forward to the part where Israel's right to exist is denied, and where we part ways. With reference to the OP, may wish to note that Golan actually asserts Israel's historical and moral rights. Not quite the cherry picked script presented.