Condo Transfer costs -before or after I kick the bucket

[fosseway]

I will be questioning the one year period after death to retain the foreign name, as our J.P. is under the impression that there is no limit, we have a case where the foreigner died about 5 years ago and left the unit left to his Thai son, the unit is now being offered for sale in a foreign name, as I said, I will check this with the J.P. and land office re the one year limit, as it will effect our 49% quota that is up to the limit.

As long as the foreign quota is not full, there is no problem selling a Thai owned condo to a foreigner, as long as the foreigner fulfills the legal requirements (bringing money from abroad).

Thank's, I fully understand that, but I am interested in buying another in my name ( Foreign ) so if a one year rule is the legal requirement, it would reduce the foreign quota to enable me to do that.

[tomwct]

When are you planning to die? If soon, don't worry about it. If later, don't worry about it!

[KittenKong]

the problem is the £100,000 that has to be brought in.It does not have to be spent.However it has to be organised in the first place. Impossible I'm just about all cases.

Impossible? Only if you dont have GBP100,000

I do have that, I could also borrow it briefly or, as I mentioned, arrange for a friendly Thai bank manager to do a paper transfer of money in and then immediately out again.

[KittenKong]

You are right

This blog as gone way off topic and as Op I am guilty of the shift

For neatness you should really have conducted the entire conversation on your own. A rose by any other name ......

[user7643446845]

I,ve Just discovered the real answer to my original query.

The trick is to bequeth the condo to my wife and make her the administrator.

Upon my death her name is added to the Condominium Title Deed -as the administrator.

My wife can continue to live there for as long as she wants.

When she finally decides to sell -she can legally sign the transfer -as administrator. Effectively signing on my behalf of my will.

The condo remains in the foreign allocation and never need change

So my query i.e lowest cost of transfer - before or after my death becomes irrelevant as she will never fully own the condo -she just controls the condo

Thus making the issue of transfer costs irrelevant as the condo will never be transferred to her as my widow

Edited May 21, 2016 by Cellarvee

[1phish2phish]

Sounds more like a Trust, do they even do those here? Do you have other assets that are worth setting up a Trust for? Would she know his to administer your will or is a dodgy lawyer involved? I mean you came here for advice, where's she going?

As executor does she not need to dispose of your assets in a certain specified amount of time? One year? I think this is pretty common practice????

Personally, I would never be interested in buying a used condo from a Thai woman with a dead farang's name on the chanote. Food for thought. Not that I'd look upon her with suspicion, like a black widow. I don't care. Just sounds like huge problems. Bangkok has a bazillion plus condos and a gazillion more built every year. So, why?

Yeah, can we call Joe and have him meet us at the land office? Oh, no solly, he dead.

Edited May 21, 2016 by 1phish2phish

[blackcab]

Sounds more like a Trust, do they even do those here?

No.

[blackcab]

Yeah, can we call Joe and have him meet us at the land office? Oh, no solly, he dead.

You make me laugh.

[KittenKong]

I,ve Just discovered the real answer to my original query.

The trick is to bequeth the condo to my wife and make her the administrator.

Upon my death her name is added to the Condominium Title Deed -as the administrator.

My wife can continue to live there for as long as she wants.

Doesn't that have any sort of time-frame to it?

I would expect there to be some legal requirement to wind your estate up at some point.

[user7643446845]

I,ve Just discovered the real answer to my original query.

The trick is to bequeth the condo to my wife and make her the administrator.

Upon my death her name is added to the Condominium Title Deed -as the administrator.

My wife can continue to live there for as long as she wants.

Doesn't that have any sort of time-frame to it?

I would expect there to be some legal requirement to wind your estate up at some point.

Not according to the English speaking lawyer who gave me the advice.

The anamoly about this arrangement is that my Will specifies that my wife will inherit the condo.

In practice,with this arragement ,she never will-in the full sense.

The land office will only be interested in the written response from the Thai court official who will confirm that

1)The Will is legal

2) My wife -now my widow -is the administrator

3) Her right to access my bank accounts.

4) Probably more

The regular assumption is that all the beneficiaries from a Will need and seek quick resolution.

Not in this case.. The land ofiice have no interest in the Will. It could be a forgery.

I have a similar arrangement with my UK property. That could go on 20 years after my death. I have given my long term tenant the right to stay there beyond my death(conditions apply)

I am happy that my widow receives regular rental income on a long term basis. The prospect of her receiving many millons of Baht almost overnight scared me. The extended family would be on her doorstep every day.

[WorkingTourist]

I have a similar arrangement with my UK property. That could go on 20 years after my death. I have given my long term tenant the right to stay there beyond my death(conditions apply)

People sharing a condo with different heirs do something similar to avoid the heirs of the deceased making claims about their half of the condo.

However, in both this and the UK case, the one occupying the condo does not inherit it, the condo goes to someone else, they just keep the right to live in it (e.g. until they die).

But it sounds like you also say that technically your wife never inherits the condo. Though this brings up the question, who does? And on your death, would the land office not require this person to comply with the “foreign name” requirements (i.e. bringing in money)? Even though your wife would keep occupying the condo (possibly rent free).

I guess according to the will, your wife would not need to transfer ownership on your death, but as you say, the land office does not care about the will, they need to follow the Thai condo act.

[user7643446845]

But it sounds like you also say that technically your wife never inherits the condo. Though this brings up the question, who does? And on your death, would the land office not require this person to comply with the “foreign name” requirements (i.e. bringing in money)? Even though your wife would keep occupying the condo (possibly rent free).

I guess according to the will, your wife would not need to transfer ownership on your death, but as you say, the land office does not care about the will, they need to follow the Thai condo act.

Who owns the condo in this transitional period?

My estate (I guess)

The condo will always be in foreign name . Its up to the new foreign buyer to satisfy the Condo .Act

When the administrator (i,e my widow) signs the transfer and gets the proceeds from the sale-then the whole process ends.

That has the potential to be decades from the time of my death i.e decades in this transitional period.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Cellarvee

[WorkingTourist]

Who owns the condo in this transitional period?

My estate (I guess)

The condo will always be in foreign name . Its up to the new foreign buyer to satisfy the Condo .Act

When the administrator (i,e my widow) signs the transfer and gets the proceeds from the sale-then the whole process ends.

That has the potential to be decades from the time of my death i.e decades in this transitional period.

So sounds like you will name your wife single heir of your estate and executrix.

As executrix she will keep the estate open and thus delay selling your condo.

Sounds to me like your wife could just as well “forget” to report your death until she is ready to sell, because ten years after your death, she might have a hard time explaining to the Land Office why your estate has not been settled

Regardless of what you do, keep in mind that the lawyer gets paid for drafting and registering the will regardless of whether their “model” works. Take the example of the “secured leases” in Phuket where buyers had a piece of paper from a lawyer securing them a 90 year lease, but that was ruled void by the Phuket Civil Court. So I would caution against too creative setups.

[user7643446845]

So sounds like you will name your wife single heir of your estate and executrix.

As executrix she will keep the estate open and thus delay selling your condo.

Sounds to me like your wife could just as well “forget” to report your death until she is ready to sell, because ten years after your death, she might have a hard time explaining to the Land Office why your estate has not been settled

Regardless of what you do, keep in mind that the lawyer gets paid for drafting and registering the will regardless of whether their “model” works. Take the example of the “secured leases” in Phuket where buyers had a piece of paper from a lawyer securing them a 90 year lease, but that was ruled void by the Phuket Civil Court. So I would caution against too creative setups.

Clearly you know very little about Wills

It has to be in her interest to contact the law firm that helped me draw up my Will.

I assume that she would wish to have legal access to the monies in my Thai Bank accounts. The Authority for that comes from a court official.

The process that I have referred earlier does not feature in my Will

It is simply an option that will be offered to her at the time of my death.

Also

She is the Administrator of my Will –not the Executor.

The role of the Administrator is to ensure that the my final wishes are carried through to completion

She will employ an Executor to do all the ‘heavy lifting’

That will be a Thai Law firm which I trust.

Part of their role will be to assist her in getting her name as the ‘administrator’ on the Condominium Title Deed.

Certainly in the UK and Thailand there is no government body to ensure that the administrators of a Will do the work correctly

That is all about my judgement in selecting an administrator whom I trust.

The suckers that bought into the 30+30+30 year lease scam should have paid for quality legal advice. The problem in those particular circumstance was a lack of independent legal advice. You cannot blame the lawyers if they were not asked to help.

caveat emptor,

[12DrinkMore]

So sounds like you will name your wife single heir of your estate and executrix.

As executrix she will keep the estate open and thus delay selling your condo.

Sounds to me like your wife could just as well “forget” to report your death until she is ready to sell, because ten years after your death, she might have a hard time explaining to the Land Office why your estate has not been settled

Regardless of what you do, keep in mind that the lawyer gets paid for drafting and registering the will regardless of whether their “model” works. Take the example of the “secured leases” in Phuket where buyers had a piece of paper from a lawyer securing them a 90 year lease, but that was ruled void by the Phuket Civil Court. So I would caution against too creative setups.

Clearly you know very little about Wills

It has to be in her interest to contact the law firm that helped me draw up my Will.

I assume that she would wish to have legal access to the monies in my Thai Bank accounts. The Authority for that comes from a court official.

The process that I have referred earlier does not feature in my Will

It is simply an option that will be offered to her at the time of my death.

Also

She is the Administrator of my Will –not the Executor.

The role of the Administrator is to ensure that the my final wishes are carried through to completion

She will employ an Executor to do all the ‘heavy lifting’

That will be a Thai Law firm which I trust.

Part of their role will be to assist her in getting her name as the ‘administrator’ on the Condominium Title Deed.

Certainly in the UK and Thailand there is no government body to ensure that the administrators of a Will do the work correctly

That is all about my judgement in selecting an administrator whom I trust.

The suckers that bought into the 30+30+30 year lease scam should have paid for quality legal advice. The problem in those particular circumstance was a lack of independent legal advice. You cannot blame the lawyers if they were not asked to help.

caveat emptor,

I think you will find that lawyers were involved in drafting the contracts.

[user7643446845]

So sounds like you will name your wife single heir of your estate and executrix.

As executrix she will keep the estate open and thus delay selling your condo.

Sounds to me like your wife could just as well “forget” to report your death until she is ready to sell, because ten years after your death, she might have a hard time explaining to the Land Office why your estate has not been settled

Regardless of what you do, keep in mind that the lawyer gets paid for drafting and registering the will regardless of whether their “model” works. Take the example of the “secured leases” in Phuket where buyers had a piece of paper from a lawyer securing them a 90 year lease, but that was ruled void by the Phuket Civil Court. So I would caution against too creative setups.

Clearly you know very little about Wills

It has to be in her interest to contact the law firm that helped me draw up my Will.

I assume that she would wish to have legal access to the monies in my Thai Bank accounts. The Authority for that comes from a court official.

The process that I have referred earlier does not feature in my Will

It is simply an option that will be offered to her at the time of my death.

Also

She is the Administrator of my Will –not the Executor.

The role of the Administrator is to ensure that the my final wishes are carried through to completion

She will employ an Executor to do all the ‘heavy lifting’

That will be a Thai Law firm which I trust.

Part of their role will be to assist her in getting her name as the ‘administrator’ on the Condominium Title Deed.

Certainly in the UK and Thailand there is no government body to ensure that the administrators of a Will do the work correctly

That is all about my judgement in selecting an administrator whom I trust.

The suckers that bought into the 30+30+30 year lease scam should have paid for quality legal advice. The problem in those particular circumstance was a lack of independent legal advice. You cannot blame the lawyers if they were not asked to help.

caveat emptor,

I think you will find that lawyers were involved in drafting the contracts.

I see that you are up to your old tricks i.e taking a post off topic

Please Stop!

[WorkingTourist]

She is the Administrator of my Will –not the Executor.

Administrator, executor, from Administration Inheritance Law:

Section 1728: “The administrator of an estate must begin making an inventory of the estate within 15 days […] from the date of his acceptance […]”

Section 1729: “The administrator of an estate must have the inventory of the estate finished within one month […]”

Section 1732: “The administrator of an estate shall perform his duties and complete […] distribution within 1 year […]”

And then from Thai Condo Act:

Section 19/7: “unqualified foreigners […] who acquires an apartment by inheritance as statutory heir or legatee or otherwise, as such case may be, shall notify in writing the Competent Official within a period of sixty days from the date of acquisition of ownership of apartment, and shall dispose of such apartment within a period of not exceeding one year from the date of acquisition of ownership of apartment”

So I have a hard time understanding what sort of legal vehicle you can use to keep the condo in foreign name for more than two years without transferring it to a new qualified foreigner.

I have a condo myself where I have not thought through succession, so I would be eager to learn the details of your planned setup.

[KittenKong]

Administrator, executor, from Administration Inheritance Law:

Section 1728: The administrator of an estate must begin making an inventory of the estate within 15 days [] from the date of his acceptance []

Section 1729: The administrator of an estate must have the inventory of the estate finished within one month []

Section 1732: The administrator of an estate shall perform his duties and complete [] distribution within 1 year []

That's much more what I was expecting.

Let's face it, if there was no time requirement to wind up an estate many people would never do it.

[user7643446845]

She is the Administrator of my Will –not the Executor.

Administrator, executor, from Administration Inheritance Law:

Section 1728: “The administrator of an estate must begin making an inventory of the estate within 15 days […] from the date of his acceptance […]”

Section 1729: “The administrator of an estate must have the inventory of the estate finished within one month […]”

Section 1732: “The administrator of an estate shall perform his duties and complete […] distribution within 1 year […]”

And then from Thai Condo Act:

Section 19/7: “unqualified foreigners […] who acquires an apartment by inheritance as statutory heir or legatee or otherwise, as such case may be, shall notify in writing the Competent Official within a period of sixty days from the date of acquisition of ownership of apartment, and shall dispose of such apartment within a period of not exceeding one year from the date of acquisition of ownership of apartment”

So I have a hard time understanding what sort of legal vehicle you can use to keep the condo in foreign name for more than two years without transferring it to a new qualified foreigner.

I have a condo myself where I have not thought through succession, so I would be eager to learn the details of your planned setup.

Thank you so much for your Post

This is exactly what I was hoping to receive as it prompts me into further investigation,

Q 1 Administrator or Executor

In Thailand the only term used is Administrator- so I suggest that we forget the rest

Q 2 Civil Code 1732

Incomplete knowledge (which you provided) can be dangerous.

The full piece reads:

Section 1732. The administrator of an estate shall perform his duties and complete the account of management and distribution within 1 year from the dates specified in the Sections 1728, unless the period of time is otherwise fixed by the testator, by a majority of the heirs or by the Court.

And, for the sake of completeness ,1728 reads:

Section 1728. The administrator of an estate must begin making an inventory of the estate within 15 days:

1. from the death of the de cujus if, at such time, the administrator has knowledge of his appointment under the will entrusted by the Court.
2. from the date when the administrator has knowledge of his appointment under the will entrusted to him, or
3. from the date of his acceptance of administratorship in any other case.

{What is DE CUJUS? (I hear you cry)

A term used to designate the person by, through, from, or under whom another claims.

And whilst we are on this roll:

A testator

A deceased person who leaves a Will

An Intestator

A deceased person who does not leave a Will

And how about

Sui juris

If a person is sui juris then they are of age (no longer subject to parental authority) and therefore able to manage their affairs. A person who is sui juris is legally competent and has full civil rights.}

To continue:

Important:

The Majority of the Heirs can specify the time frame

The Majority of the Heirs in my case will be my recently widowed wife.

She can simply pluck a number out of the air. It could be 50 years

(Note: I have asked my Lawyer for clarification of this Timeframe. He is currently out of the country. I will report on any new ‘Pertinent Information’)

That said it is important not to insult the Thai Courts.

At the relevant time her lawyer will advise a timeframe that is acceptable to both her and the court.

Q3

Section 19/7: “unqualified foreigners […] who acquires an apartment by inheritance as statutory heir or legatee or otherwise, as such case may be, shall notify in writing the Competent Official within a period of sixty days from the date of acquisition of ownership of apartment, and shall dispose of such apartment within a period of not exceeding one year from the date of acquisition of ownership of apartment”

This I think is not relevant to this post. It refers to ‘un Qualified Foreigners who inherit.

At some point my widow (as Administrator ) will sell the condo, which lies in the foreign allocation, to a qualified foreigner

Q4 My set up

I have no ‘set up’ . Just a Will that bequeaths all my Thai assets to my wife and names her as administrator.

The clever stuff will be peformed by my widow's Lawyer

Edited May 23, 2016 by Cellarvee

[rak sa_ngop]

I know it is possible to have 2 parties jointly purchase a condo so that if one party dies the second party can 'inherit' the first party's share. (assuming this was the intent of the partnership).

I have seen this happen in my condo building and the formal transfer of the ownership was made about 4 years after the death of the first party (with the help of a newly discovered 'will'). Unfortunately I have no details of the cost involved

I believe I have read somewhere that it is possible to add another name to the condo title deeds to allow joint ownership even after the purchase of a condo has been completed, and that this can be carried out at minimal cost (maybe about 50,000 baht if memory serves me) and does not require transfer in (and out) of funds.

If adding an additional name to an existing chanote is really possible would this not be a valid and relatively cheap way of transferring the ownership of a condo upon one's death to a spouse, children, relative or even friend (of course they might want to move in with you as they would own part of the condo).

Any comments on the above welcome.

[user7643446845]

I know it is possible to have 2 parties jointly purchase a condo so that if one party dies the second party can 'inherit' the first party's share. (assuming this was the intent of the partnership).

Do you have a source for this legal arrangement? For certain it is not in the Condo Act.

[rak sa_ngop]

No I do not.

But I personally know of 2 friends who jointly bought a condo. When one friend passed away the second friend managed to transfer the whole ownership to his name.

Or maybe he just managed to remove his joint owners name from the chanote.

I am not able to find out more details from the individual concerned. But would like to hear other peoples experiences as this may represent a legitimate way of bequeathing a property at minimal cost and trouble to the inheritor.

[user7643446845]

No I do not.

But I personally know of 2 friends who jointly bought a condo. When one friend passed away the second friend managed to transfer the whole ownership to his name.

Or maybe he just managed to remove his joint owners name from the chanote.

Or maybe a new FET was organised.

The only reference that I can find about joint ownership is as follows:

If it is Thai and foreigner and in the Thai allocation -then the condo is in effect 100% Thai. The foreigner owns nothing.

If it is Thai and foreigner and is in the foreign allocation -them it is 100% foreign and a FET is required.

I think in the latter case then the Thai owns 100% if the couple are married and a divorce occurs. Even if the purchase was before the marriage.

It seems that the law favours the Thai in these joint exercises.

Others may correct me on this,

Like you I can find no reference to joint owned foreigner and foreigner.

Maybe it was never considered.

It would be very interesting to find out.

[rak sa_ngop]

No I do not.

But I personally know of 2 friends who jointly bought a condo. When one friend passed away the second friend managed to transfer the whole ownership to his name.

Or maybe he just managed to remove his joint owners name from the chanote.

Or maybe a new FET was organised.

I very much doubt if any money to the value of half the condo value was transferred into the country to affect the transfer of the half share.

The reason I say this is because I know the person in question.

But I can stand corrected.

[user7643446845]

I very much doubt if any money to the value of half the condo value was transferred into the country to affect the transfer of the half share.

The reason I say this is because I know the person in question.

But I can stand corrected.

What you are suggesting is that Foreigner A can add the name of Foreigner B to his Condo Title deed -.just prior to his death

That process can be repeated with Foreigner C and so on and so on. Potentially for many decades.

Thus keeping the Condo in the foreign allocation –and no requirement for a FET

Nice Idea !

Suspect if this were possible –then the lawyers would have already spotted it.

I understand a FET can be acquired on the cheap .

However I am happy-at this stage to keep an open mind.