British activist faces jail threat in Thailand as trial starts over worker abuse research

[nakhonandy]

One thing that is outrageous here, other than the obvious.

Even assuming everything he said is true, highly probable I believe, he can still be prosecuted under Thai law for defamation if the Company has been damaged by the reports. Complete madness in my opinion. Nothing like libel/slander laws in the UK, if it is true the case is thrown out, in fact he would probably receive legal fees/damages compensation as well!

That said, he didn't write the report or post it, Finnwatch did, so how did he end up being prosecuted?

The same reason the editor who re-printed a paragraph from an award-winning Reuters article was charged. Thailand can't go after the big fish overseas as the country would be told to bugger off, so they go after and bully the small fry based in Thailand.

I see your point with one exception.

The editor actually did include the quote in his own post.

Finnwatch posted this outside of Thailand, Andy Hall didn't post/print it.

I know it's semantics but it is slightly different.

[Mook23]

I am always reminded by my (Thai) wife to " not get involved, not our problem" - this is a GOOD RULE to follow in Thailand.

Western's tend to attract trouble in Thailand by "getting involved" in things that are not our problems.....

Your attitude and that of the Thai population is the reason that this country is a 3rd world nation, has a disgracefu education system and is controled by a junta.

Good luck Mr Hall and respect.

True, it's never their problem unless it concerns themselves. Than everybody has to hear it and listen and feel sorry. land of egotism!

[Tomtomtom69]

While I hope he is treated leniently, personally the way I see it is another case of a white person trying to make themselves the self-appointed spokesperson for people they think don't have any voice. It's a typical leftist feel good thing to do these days, let's go out and expose apparent abuses of human rights, because we are perpetual racists and need to make amends for past injustices for eternity.

Really, can anyone tell me the last time an Asian person advocated for human rights?

I clicked like but wanted to click quote. I don't like your post because the last sentence is utterly untrue. According to a couple of your posts you pretend to know (a little) about Burma. Good for u thinking that, but if u really knew about Burma you would know that PLENTY of burmese have risked their lives in Burma AND Thailand advocating human rights. In Bangkok there's a guy (Kyaw Thaung) for many years advocating the rights of his fellow men. He has to hide all the time, change places and has been shot at. Nevertheless he continues to fight the situation.

http://pulitzercenter.org/reporting/thailand-burmese-migrants-illegal-abusive-labor-thai-shrimp-industry-human-trafficking

"Pretend"? I happen to know a lot about Myanmar, a lot more than you it seems as evidenced by the fact you don't even know the country's current name (it's been called Myanmar since 1989 NOT Burma anymore, get with the times) and another thing I've noticed is that nearly all of the NGOs in Mae Sot advocating for Burmese migrant rights are white people. There is one Burmese lady who runs a clinic in Mae Sot, Cynthia Aung, good on her, but my point in making my comment was why is it that it's always white people being the self-appointed spokespeople for the rights of non-white people, even in non-white countries?

Good that there are Burmese people advocating for the rights of their citizens, that's what I would expect to find, but forgive me for not knowing any of their names apart from the lady in Mae Sot because nobody except you has ever heard of these people but everyone has heard of this Andy guy. Why is that do you think?

Edited May 21, 2016 by Tomtomtom69

[Tomtomtom69]

I am always reminded by my (Thai) wife to " not get involved, not our problem" - this is a GOOD RULE to follow in Thailand.

Western's tend to attract trouble in Thailand by "getting involved" in things that are not our problems.....

I agree, call me heartless if you want but I don't see how supposed migrant abuses, which is something I've never seen with my own eyes or heard any Thais talk about, should be something any outsider not directly working in the industry, whether they are Thai or non-Thai should concern themselves with.

What I would rather focus on are more important issues that might affect me and the community at large directly. Air pollution due to forest fires and uncontrolled burning of garbage perhaps. Bad driving and poor enforcement of road rules that endangers all other road users.

Andy Hall is simply getting involved in things he really has no business getting involved in the first place (though I admire his courage I would never even contemplate following in his footsteps). These supposed worker abuses never affected him directly, why does he care so much? Why should any of us care so much about other people who really don't care that we care?

Besides, there are a ton of problems in our own countries we should rather be concerning ourselves with, before some of us get on our high horse and start telling other countries what they are doing wrong.

[Mook23]

While I hope he is treated leniently, personally the way I see it is another case of a white person trying to make themselves the self-appointed spokesperson for people they think don't have any voice. It's a typical leftist feel good thing to do these days, let's go out and expose apparent abuses of human rights, because we are perpetual racists and need to make amends for past injustices for eternity.

Really, can anyone tell me the last time an Asian person advocated for human rights?

I clicked like but wanted to click quote. I don't like your post because the last sentence is utterly untrue. According to a couple of your posts you pretend to know (a little) about Burma. Good for u thinking that, but if u really knew about Burma you would know that PLENTY of burmese have risked their lives in Burma AND Thailand advocating human rights. In Bangkok there's a guy (Kyaw Thaung) for many years advocating the rights of his fellow men. He has to hide all the time, change places and has been shot at. Nevertheless he continues to fight the situation.

http://pulitzercenter.org/reporting/thailand-burmese-migrants-illegal-abusive-labor-thai-shrimp-industry-human-trafficking

"Pretend"? I happen to know a lot about Myanmar, a lot more than you it seems as evidenced by the fact you don't even know the country's current name (it's been called Myanmar since 1989 NOT Burma anymore, get with the times) and another thing I've noticed is that nearly all of the NGOs in Mae Sot advocating for Burmese migrant rights are white people. There is one Burmese lady who runs a clinic in Mae Sot, Cynthia Aung, good on her, but my point in making my comment was why is it that it's always white people being the self-appointed spokespeople for the rights of non-white people, even in non-white countries?

Good that there are Burmese people advocating for the rights of their citizens, that's what I would expect to find, but forgive me for not knowing any of their names apart from the lady in Mae Sot because nobody except you has ever heard of these people but everyone has heard of this Andy guy. Why is that do you think?

U know very little about Burma, u write things on this forum, facts according to you, that are untrue and that have been firmly corrected by people who know what they are talking about. (yes, I happen to have read a couple of your "statements"). I use Burma and Myanmar whenever I want, they mean the same and do not offend anyone (http://archive-2.mizzima.com/edop/letters/6395-burma-and-myanmar-mean-exactly-the-same-thing.html). ASSK has been the spokesperson for decades for human rights and democracy in Burma. She's as non-white as non-white can be. She paid a high price too for her deeds. Unlike you I have lived for many years in Burma and have worked closely with Burmese grassroots orgs totally not operated by white people. Again, you know very little except from the basic "obvious" things (well, on this forum, which is mainly a Thailand forum u maybe know a little more than the usual farlang but nothing that impresses me) and stuff u have read on other "fora". Burma is full with local organisations who try to support the poor, women, garment workers, orphans, etc. You will simply never meet them because again u know very little except from the obvious. in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king...

[laolover88]

All good wishes to Andy Hall.

I read that Finnwatch provides him with "technical" support. I hope they have been doing a good deal more than that; like bringing to the public attention that numerous UK and other supermarkets are implicated in this "Pineapplegate". But I am not seeing it publicly. I wonder what Her Majesty's dynamic Government and Foreign Office have done to help?

[Tomtomtom69]

While I hope he is treated leniently, personally the way I see it is another case of a white person trying to make themselves the self-appointed spokesperson for people they think don't have any voice. It's a typical leftist feel good thing to do these days, let's go out and expose apparent abuses of human rights, because we are perpetual racists and need to make amends for past injustices for eternity.

Really, can anyone tell me the last time an Asian person advocated for human rights?

I clicked like but wanted to click quote. I don't like your post because the last sentence is utterly untrue. According to a couple of your posts you pretend to know (a little) about Burma. Good for u thinking that, but if u really knew about Burma you would know that PLENTY of burmese have risked their lives in Burma AND Thailand advocating human rights. In Bangkok there's a guy (Kyaw Thaung) for many years advocating the rights of his fellow men. He has to hide all the time, change places and has been shot at. Nevertheless he continues to fight the situation.

http://pulitzercenter.org/reporting/thailand-burmese-migrants-illegal-abusive-labor-thai-shrimp-industry-human-trafficking

"Pretend"? I happen to know a lot about Myanmar, a lot more than you it seems as evidenced by the fact you don't even know the country's current name (it's been called Myanmar since 1989 NOT Burma anymore, get with the times) and another thing I've noticed is that nearly all of the NGOs in Mae Sot advocating for Burmese migrant rights are white people. There is one Burmese lady who runs a clinic in Mae Sot, Cynthia Aung, good on her, but my point in making my comment was why is it that it's always white people being the self-appointed spokespeople for the rights of non-white people, even in non-white countries?

Good that there are Burmese people advocating for the rights of their citizens, that's what I would expect to find, but forgive me for not knowing any of their names apart from the lady in Mae Sot because nobody except you has ever heard of these people but everyone has heard of this Andy guy. Why is that do you think?

U know very little about Burma, u write things on this forum, facts according to you, that are untrue and that have been firmly corrected by people who know what they are talking about. (yes, I happen to have read a couple of your "statements"). I use Burma and Myanmar whenever I want, they mean the same and do not offend anyone (http://archive-2.mizzima.com/edop/letters/6395-burma-and-myanmar-mean-exactly-the-same-thing.html). ASSK has been the spokesperson for decades for human rights and democracy in Burma. She's as non-white as non-white can be. She paid a high price too for her deeds. Unlike you I have lived for many years in Burma and have worked closely with Burmese grassroots orgs totally not operated by white people. Again, you know very little except from the basic "obvious" things (well, on this forum, which is mainly a Thailand forum u maybe know a little more than the usual farlang but nothing that impresses me) and stuff u have read on other "fora". Burma is full with local organisations who try to support the poor, women, garment workers, orphans, etc. You will simply never meet them because again u know very little except from the obvious. in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king...

Oh wow mr. know it all who knows all the nobodies in Myanmar (sorry Burma). I won't meet these people you talk about because 1) I'm not an NGO and 2) I don't care. Aung San Suu Kyi is a brilliant lady, we know that. What's your point?

What I DO know is a hell of a lot about many other things in Myanmar, more than MOST other people on this forum and I don't care for your inflammatory smear either. For example, some NGOs operate with dubious intentions and make things WORSE not better. Case in point last year there was an American NGO in Sittwe, Rakhine state. Headed by a dim-witted relatively young American lady. Rakhine Buddhists placed a prayer flag on the front gate of the NGO property. American lady threw away the flag, claiming her NGO was "non-denominational". Enraged Buddhists and nationalists started throwing stones at the rented property housing the NGO. American lady and her staff were accused of being traitors to Myanmar by supporting Muslim Rohingyas over Buddhists. She had to flee the country along with all other NGOs in the state. Later on in an interview back in the safety of her native USA, she again showed her arrogance by defending her actions.

She clearly didn't learn anything while she was in Myanmar. No wonder NGOs and so-called "activists" are not popular in this part of the world. They often do more harm than good.

[Mook23]

Oh wow mr. know it all who knows all the nobodies in Myanmar (sorry Burma). I won't meet these people you talk about because 1) I'm not an NGO and 2) I don't care. Aung San Suu Kyi is a brilliant lady, we know that. What's your point?

What I DO know is a hell of a lot about many other things in Myanmar, more than MOST other people on this forum and I don't care for your inflammatory smear either. For example, some NGOs operate with dubious intentions and make things WORSE not better. Case in point last year there was an American NGO in Sittwe, Rakhine state. Headed by a dim-witted relatively young American lady. Rakhine Buddhists placed a prayer flag on the front gate of the NGO property. American lady threw away the flag, claiming her NGO was "non-denominational". Enraged Buddhists and nationalists started throwing stones at the rented property housing the NGO. American lady and her staff were accused of being traitors to Myanmar by supporting Muslim Rohingyas over Buddhists. She had to flee the country along with all other NGOs in the state. Later on in an interview back in the safety of her native USA, she again showed her arrogance by defending her actions.

She clearly didn't learn anything while she was in Myanmar. No wonder NGOs and so-called "activists" are not popular in this part of the world. They often do more harm than good.

t's no smear. It's the truth. You know very very little (although indeed maybe a little more than the average TVF retiree). and i'm not mr know it all but i'm sure mr knows much more than you do

I understand you (your ego) might feel offended believing you know a lot and then some stranger on a forum tells you don't. Well that's cause you don't know a lot (which isn't a shame btw). I invite you at my table to talk Burmese issues any time. I provide the food, your bring the drinks. As for "can anyone tell me the last time an Asian person advocated for human rights"... ASSK to start with perhaps?

[CGW]

I am always reminded by my (Thai) wife to " not get involved, not our problem" - this is a GOOD RULE to follow in Thailand.

Western's tend to attract trouble in Thailand by "getting involved" in things that are not our problems.....

Your attitude and that of the Thai population is the reason that this country is a 3rd world nation, has a disgracefu education system and is controled by a junta.

Good luck Mr Hall and respect.

I'm pretty much agree with RatchadaMan views though I do give my respect to Mr Hall, perhaps you would enlighten us MorristheRunt on the actions you are undertaking to improve the situation?

Edited May 21, 2016 by CGW

[Tomtomtom69]

Oh wow mr. know it all who knows all the nobodies in Myanmar (sorry Burma). I won't meet these people you talk about because 1) I'm not an NGO and 2) I don't care. Aung San Suu Kyi is a brilliant lady, we know that. What's your point?

What I DO know is a hell of a lot about many other things in Myanmar, more than MOST other people on this forum and I don't care for your inflammatory smear either. For example, some NGOs operate with dubious intentions and make things WORSE not better. Case in point last year there was an American NGO in Sittwe, Rakhine state. Headed by a dim-witted relatively young American lady. Rakhine Buddhists placed a prayer flag on the front gate of the NGO property. American lady threw away the flag, claiming her NGO was "non-denominational". Enraged Buddhists and nationalists started throwing stones at the rented property housing the NGO. American lady and her staff were accused of being traitors to Myanmar by supporting Muslim Rohingyas over Buddhists. She had to flee the country along with all other NGOs in the state. Later on in an interview back in the safety of her native USA, she again showed her arrogance by defending her actions.

She clearly didn't learn anything while she was in Myanmar. No wonder NGOs and so-called "activists" are not popular in this part of the world. They often do more harm than good.

t's no smear. It's the truth. You know very very little (although indeed maybe a little more than the average TVF retiree). and i'm not mr know it all but i'm sure mr knows much more than you do

I understand you (your ego) might feel offended believing you know a lot and then some stranger on a forum tells you don't. Well that's cause you don't know a lot (which isn't a shame btw). I invite you at my table to talk Burmese issues any time. I provide the food, your bring the drinks. As for "can anyone tell me the last time an Asian person advocated for human rights"... ASSK to start with perhaps?

​Look dude. My original post was made merely to point out that in general, NGOs are more likely to be staffed/headed by westerners, wherever they are in the world, including in Myanmar, along the Thai-Myanmar border, in India, in Africa everywhere. Just because you found an exception (even if it's a very famous one, i.e. Aung San Suu Kyi) doesn't mean the pattern doesn't hold true. As for these other characters you've spoken of, why should any one of us be expected to have heard of them, when in your own words they "hide from the authorities"? I'm not an expert on NGOs or human rights, nor am I claiming to be.

You unfortunately have this holier than thou tendency to think you know it all and have no shame in putting other members down. While I can rightfully admit I don't know a whole lot about the NGO industry in general, I know enough to have been able to provide a constructive analysis. You on the other hand have showered me with claims that somehow prove my generalisations don't hold true when they clearly do. Anyway, just to end this once and for all, yes my claim is a generalization. It doesn't make your points invalid, but you know very well the basis for my claims in the context of this thread, which is here you have a western NGO guy, who is obviously louder than the rest of them, otherwise we wouldn't have heard his name nor be reading this story, who is in trouble with the authorities here in Thailand. Many NGOs overshoot their authority and the consequences can be quite dire. Look up the Spanish forest activist (now personally that's a cause I actually sympathize with a lot) who was deported from Cambodia and recently tried to get back in but was refused entry.

[Mook23]

I never mentioned (the role of) NGO's nor do i think I'm holier than anyone. I said I know much more about Burma than you whereas there are probably areas in life you know more about than me. I have no opinion about NGO's as I have nothing to do with them. You don't even know if I'm asian (maybe Myanmarese?!) or not...

[Wilsonandson]

Two interesting articles on the Andy Hall case:-

1) https://news.vice.com/article/thailand-wants-to-throw-this-british-rights-activist-in-jail-for-fighting-exploitation

2) http://www.rfa.org/english/news/myanmar/thailand-myanmar-05192016151126.html

[Nigeone]

Massive respect to Andy Hall. A clever man and I'm sure he knows the risks involved in this..He knows if he's found not guilty

then a lot of attention will be brought to what he fights for...Added support in a indirect way..If he's found guilty which because of Thai mentality ,losing face etc , I think he will a massive s*** storm will ensure..Win win I see it .. Dangerous game but a sure possible fast track to dealing with these ongoing issues...As I said one brave dude not matter what side of the fence you sit on. Also if he is locked up be it briefly another PR disaster looms with the upcoming Koh Tao hearing..No he knows what he's doing alright !!

[Tomtomtom69]

I never mentioned (the role of) NGO's nor do i think I'm holier than anyone. I said I know much more about Burma than you whereas there are probably areas in life you know more about than me. I have no opinion about NGO's as I have nothing to do with them. You don't even know if I'm asian (maybe Myanmarese?!) or not...

You said you worked with grassroots organisations. Those are clearly NGOs. Get your story straight. I don't care if you're Burmese or not, that's not relevant to this discussion.

[Mook23]

grassroots are not NGO's the way you define them. the ones i worked with, mainly providing funerals to burmese locals too poor to get cremated otherwise, have in fact NOTHING to do with that. you generalise, apparently have some deeprooted (no pun intended) frustration towards NGO's for whatever reason, refer on TVF all the time to "political correct leftwing"... obviously u have some serious bitterness like most people on this very forum.

i deal in compassion and empathy, with zero "foreign" sponsorship nor meddling. no salaries. no accounting. no bitterness.

[Tomtomtom69]

grassroots are not NGO's the way you define them. the ones i worked with, mainly providing funerals to burmese locals too poor to get cremated otherwise, have in fact NOTHING to do with that. you generalise, apparently have some deeprooted (no pun intended) frustration towards NGO's for whatever reason, refer on TVF all the time to "political correct leftwing"... obviously u have some serious bitterness like most people on this very forum.

i deal in compassion and empathy, with zero "foreign" sponsorship nor meddling. no salaries. no accounting. no bitterness.

Seems like you are the bitter one. Also, you might want to find another hobby rather than check out all my thousands of posts over the years. Like I dunno, start gardening or something. Or get back to whatever organisation you are involved in. Whether you call it an NGO, don't call it an NGO. I haven't got the time to discuss semantics with you anymore. Please find something more constructive to do with your time than call other TV members bitter losers.

[Mook23]

I'm not checking your 1000 posts whatsoever. I have simpler other ways to know what type of nonsense you have written about Burma in the past. ? and were corrected accordingly... ?

[Mook23]

Ps the essence remains u know very little about Burma but you think you do cuz there is very little people on this very forum who know about Burma. There is this subforum I don't even bother to participate to. You can be a self-proclaimed connoisseur here behind a screen, at my table, face to face you will not get any further than the basic lonely planet infos. That I know 100%. I can even easily proof so ? and correct a number of your statements that are complete untrue/ incorrect.

[nakhonandy]

<deleted> has this to do with Myanmar/Burma?

It is about a man standing up for human rights.

And being attacked by the back door.

New laws.

[Eirene]

Wishing Andy All the Best! Much respect to this man for standing up for what is right in a world full of wrong.

[MorristheRunt]

I am always reminded by my (Thai) wife to " not get involved, not our problem" - this is a GOOD RULE to follow in Thailand.

Western's tend to attract trouble in Thailand by "getting involved" in things that are not our problems.....

Your attitude and that of the Thai population is the reason that this country is a 3rd world nation, has a disgracefu education system and is controled by a junta.

Good luck Mr Hall and respect.

I'm pretty much agree with RatchadaMan views though I do give my respect to Mr Hall, perhaps you would enlighten us MorristheRunt on the actions you are undertaking to improve the situation?

Its time for the people of Thailand to wake from their slumber and smell the coffee.

The elite of this country have abused the majority for far too long, this country should be ashamed at how it's lied and bullied its population.

[cpofc]

I am always reminded by my (Thai) wife to " not get involved, not our problem" - this is a GOOD RULE to follow in Thailand.

Western's tend to attract trouble in Thailand by "getting involved" in things that are not our problems.....

Your attitude and that of the Thai population is the reason that this country is a 3rd world nation, has a disgracefu education system and is controled by a junta.

Good luck Mr Hall and respect.

I'm pretty much agree with RatchadaMan views though I do give my respect to Mr Hall, perhaps you would enlighten us MorristheRunt on the actions you are undertaking to improve the situation?

Its time for the people of Thailand to wake from their slumber and smell the coffee.

The elite of this country have abused the majority for far too long, this country should be ashamed at how it's lied and bullied its population.

me too. My wife was the same. I try to keep out of it because I know how we Australian's feel when 'outsiders' come on over and get into us and want to tell us how to run our country. The Thais are extremely parochial. They don't like it either.

It is not my place. I tend to think it is bad manners really. It is my choice to live here and the only reason I can is because they allow me to. So, abusing your host is not the way I was brought up.

I am not knocking Andy at all. The world needs people like Andy. A modern day version of William Wilberforce. Although he had no shortage of countries to choose from where to conduct his campaign. There is a lot of it going on. I also totally agree about the big corporates of this world and slaves to consumerism.

is this really about Pineapple Juice though? Migrant Workers? Native Workers?

Isn't this really about Thailand's much criticised defammation laws. Isn't it really these laws that need reform. Not the Labour Laws. I've read the Thai Labour Laws and they are not too bad really.

Whilst the incumbent Government cops all the flack at the present, those with short memories may not recall when Taksin was PM, anyone who criticised him was hit with a Criminal Law Suit! He had heaps of them on the go. He had all the money. He had them buggered.

Even the King himself, at the time of his 60th Anniversary on the Throne, delivered a very subtle, and very public rebuke, not mentioning anyone in particular, by declaring that even as King, he should be open to criticism like everyone else, when and where it was warranted. Unprecedented. Of course I know of no Thai who would even remotely think of taking him up on his suggestion. But that wasn't the point.

After this Taksin withdrew a few of them.

Yeah, its been going on a long time. Law reform is needed. I doubt anyone can deny that.

[simon43]

I use Burma and Myanmar whenever I want, they mean the same

Completely off-topic, but this is an important point that needs correcting.

'Burma' refers to the land of the Burmans, who are the largest but only one of the many ethnic groups in Myanmar; hence the decision to change the country name to something that was ethnic-neutral.

Back to the topic

Edited May 21, 2016 by simon43

[cpofc]

If Andy eventually gets the bullet from the LOS, he can always relocate to Japan.

As I said, there's a lot of it going on.

[Wilsonandson]

The Natural fruit trial continues again on Thursday 2nd June with a likely whole day testimony of defendant Andy Hall at Bangkok South Criminal Court.

Good Luck, Andy!

Like your fan club!!! 5555

Just joking.