Dermatitus/Mange

[POMCHOB]

My wifes Thai family dog has what appears to be Mange

he lives outdoors in Thailand .

A Thai Vet has given a sachet of 10 grammes of powder Biomectin[generic name for ivermectin] 0.1% with also pyrentel 5.0%

the vets says this will treat mange and hookworm ,heartworm

the dog is around 15kilos he has never had any protection of these accept ticks .I do not know if he has DRM1 Mutation he is

a Thai mix .I found out this ivermectin in powder form has been

discontinued in the US and Europe i am concerned this may be

too much for the dog as i have been told to give the whole 10 grammes sachet in his food i would be grateful for any advice

on this drug please

POMCHOB

[Sophon]

We give our dogs 4 milligram of Ivermectin per 10 kg bodyweight once a month mainly to prevent hearth worm. When treating a dog suffering from mange we increase the dose by 50% and treat once a week until the dogs starts showing signs of improvement (hair growing back), after that we cut down to once every two weeks for a while and end up going to normal dose. I have given Ivermectin to many Thai street dogs and never had one show signs of intolerance to the drug.

If my math is correct your 10 gram of 0.1% contains 10 milligram of Ivermectin which is about the same as we would give a 15 kg dog suffering from mange. However, I would have expected the vet to give the first dose of Ivermectin as an injection as the drug is more effective that way.

Sophon

[Sophon]

Just to add..

The mites that causes mange is present in all dogs here, but normally doesn't cause problems. But when a dogs immune system is compromised, usually because of bad food or in case of females when they get pregnant, the dog is no longer able to fight off the mites and they multiply out of control.

This is our latest adoptee:

As you can see from the time stamp, the picture is about two months old. With treatment and good food she is now right as rain again. It takes about a month on Ivermectin before you start seeing improvement, but after that things progress rapidly.

Sophon

[fredge45]

Get some sulfur, mix with vegetable oil and apply every couple of days. Works like a charm.

[POMCHOB]

We give our dogs 4 milligram of Ivermectin per 10 kg bodyweight once a month mainly to prevent hearth worm. When treating a dog suffering from mange we increase the dose by 50% and treat once a week until the dogs starts showing signs of improvement (hair growing back), after that we cut down to once every two weeks for a while and end up going to normal dose. I have given Ivermectin to many Thai street dogs and never had one show signs of intolerance to the drug.

If my math is correct your 10 gram of 0.1% contains 10 milligram of Ivermectin which is about the same as we would give a 15 kg dog suffering from mange. However, I would have expected the vet to give the first dose of Ivermectin as an injection as the drug is more effective that way.

Sophon

Hi Sophon

thank you for taking the time to reply to my post

and sharing your advice ,i just wondered, the sachet of powder i have is combined with Pyrentel 5.0% in a 10 MG do you have any idea what this is for. as i have some reservations using this part too?

Good Luck

POMCHOB

[POMCHOB]

Get some sulfur, mix with vegetable oil and apply every couple of days. Works like a charm.

Hi fredge45

most grateful for your advice

POMCHOB

[Sophon]

We give our dogs 4 milligram of Ivermectin per 10 kg bodyweight once a month mainly to prevent hearth worm. When treating a dog suffering from mange we increase the dose by 50% and treat once a week until the dogs starts showing signs of improvement (hair growing back), after that we cut down to once every two weeks for a while and end up going to normal dose. I have given Ivermectin to many Thai street dogs and never had one show signs of intolerance to the drug.

If my math is correct your 10 gram of 0.1% contains 10 milligram of Ivermectin which is about the same as we would give a 15 kg dog suffering from mange. However, I would have expected the vet to give the first dose of Ivermectin as an injection as the drug is more effective that way.

Sophon

Hi Sophon

thank you for taking the time to reply to my post and sharing your advice ,i just wondered, the sachet of powder i have is combined with Pyrentel 5.0% in a 10 MG do you have any idea what this is for. as i have some reservations using this part too?

Good Luck

POMCHOB

Sorry, I don't have experience with Pyrantel (I assume Pyrantel Pamoate), but I can see from a Google search that it is a very commonly used de-wormer for dogs. It seems to be very well tolerated in most dogs and have few side effects (vomiting). If it is a mix with both Ivermectin and Pyrantel Permoate, I would assume that the dosage is correct (since the Ivermectin dosage seems to be).

Sophon

Edit: On reflection, it sounds like treating for intestinal worms at the same time as the mange would be a good strategy as a compromised immune system could conceivably be caused by intestinal worms.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Sophon

[POMCHOB]

Hi Sophon

Thank-you for all your kind help and concise info also providing

a Photo which is very much appreciated too..I am glad she, is better now too.

Good Luck

POMCHOB

[POMCHOB]

We give our dogs 4 milligram of Ivermectin per 10 kg bodyweight once a month mainly to prevent hearth worm. When treating a dog suffering from mange we increase the dose by 50% and treat once a week until the dogs starts showing signs of improvement (hair growing back), after that we cut down to once every two weeks for a while and end up going to normal dose. I have given Ivermectin to many Thai street dogs and never had one show signs of intolerance to the drug.

If my math is correct your 10 gram of 0.1% contains 10 milligram of Ivermectin which is about the same as we would give a 15 kg dog suffering from mange. However, I would have expected the vet to give the first dose of Ivermectin as an injection as the drug is more effective that way.

Sophon

I have had a Chat with a person ,although they are not a Vet do have a passion for helping animals and has a website is called dogaware.com

I found Calculations on Ivermectin for dogs in pounds weight and was explained the following (my maths is not that good)there's is better :

http://dogaware.com/health/ivomec.html#calculations Heartgard dosage is a minimum of 6 mcg/kg (2.72 mcg/lb).

4 mg of ivermectin is 4,000 mcg, enough to prevent heartworms in a dog weighing 667 kg (4,000/6). If you give this amount per 10 kg, you are giving 67 times as much as is needed (10 kg x 6 mcg = 60 mcg; 4,000/60 = 67).

http://dogaware.com/health/ivomec.html#sarcoptic Sarcoptic Mange: Dosage is 200 to 300 mcg/kg of body weight, which converts to 2,000 to 3,000 mcg (2-3 mg) per 10 kg.

If they increase the dosage by 50% to treat mange, that would be 6 mg/10 kg, double the amount needed.

I have searched for information about whether ivermectin is more effective when injected, given orally, or used topically, and found nothing that says one method is better than another. And if the injectable form is more effective, that would just make it more likely to cause negative side effects when giving more than twice the amount needed.

Im not trying to criticise your type of treatment, that appears to work i just wanted yourself and others (including myself) to maybe err on the side of caution

as there is a great deal of good info from this website from calculations for the different dogs and Mutation MDR1 which is in some types of dogs.

Hope its helpful to you and others

Thanks for your help

POMCHOB

Edited May 31, 2016 by POMCHOB

[Sophon]

We give our dogs 4 milligram of Ivermectin per 10 kg bodyweight once a month mainly to prevent hearth worm. When treating a dog suffering from mange we increase the dose by 50% and treat once a week until the dogs starts showing signs of improvement (hair growing back), after that we cut down to once every two weeks for a while and end up going to normal dose. I have given Ivermectin to many Thai street dogs and never had one show signs of intolerance to the drug.

If my math is correct your 10 gram of 0.1% contains 10 milligram of Ivermectin which is about the same as we would give a 15 kg dog suffering from mange. However, I would have expected the vet to give the first dose of Ivermectin as an injection as the drug is more effective that way.

Sophon

I have had a Chat with a person ,although they are not a Vet do have a passion for helping animals and has a website is called dogaware.com

I found Calculations on Ivermectin for dogs in pounds weight and was explained the following (my maths is not that good)there's is better :

http://dogaware.com/health/ivomec.html#calculations Heartgard dosage is a minimum of 6 mcg/kg (2.72 mcg/lb).

4 mg of ivermectin is 4,000 mcg, enough to prevent heartworms in a dog weighing 667 kg (4,000/6). If you give this amount per 10 kg, you are giving 67 times as much as is needed (10 kg x 6 mcg = 60 mcg; 4,000/60 = 67).

http://dogaware.com/health/ivomec.html#sarcoptic Sarcoptic Mange: Dosage is 200 to 300 mcg/kg of body weight, which converts to 2,000 to 3,000 mcg (2-3 mg) per 10 kg.

If they increase the dosage by 50% to treat mange, that would be 6 mg/10 kg, double the amount needed.

I have searched for information about whether ivermectin is more effective when injected, given orally, or used topically, and found nothing that says one method is better than another. And if the injectable form is more effective, that would just make it more likely to cause negative side effects when giving more than twice the amount needed.

Im not trying to criticise your type of treatment, that appears to work i just wanted yourself and others (including myself) to maybe err on the side of caution

as there is a great deal of good info from this website from calculations for the different dogs and Mutation MDR1 which is in some types of dogs.

Hope its helpful to you and others

Thanks for your help

POMCHOB

The dosage we are giving was recommended by one of the original founders of Soi Dogs, which was again based on the advice of an Australian vet who was helping her with her new animal rescue operation (she was previously a member here on ThaiVisa). I will give you that as they were treating soi dogs they would possibly give a higher dosage than would normally be given to a pet since they could have problems finding the dog again and repeating the treatment, but they would never do anything that would be dangerous for the dogs.

It's true that the needed dosage for prevention of heart worm is quite low, but if you only give that dosage then you don't provide any protection against worms, mange and ticks and fleas (though Ivermectin only provides limited protection against the latter two). Also note that the website you link to states that you should round up rather than down when calculating the dosage and that Ivermectin can be given daily without problems in case of mange. I only give the medicine weekly when treating mange so I am effectively giving a much smaller dosage than what DogAware says is non problematic. It's very hard to overdose a dog with Ivermectin unless they have the mutation that makes them intolerant and very few Thai dogs will have that mutation. I was told by the Australian vet to look out for signs of the dog acting "drunk" to indicate an overdose, but have never had any dog have that reaction (out of at least 50 but probably closer to 100 dogs treated).

Also note that the girl I posted the picture of was already on a monthly dosage of 8 mg Ivermectin for a 16 kg dog, but that didn't prevent the mange.

Sophon

Edited May 31, 2016 by Sophon

[POMCHOB]

Hi sophon

must admit i am finding all the weights and calculations mind boggling to be honest!!

i had a reply from a Vet in the UK that said the following :

______________________________________________________________________

""Thank you for your email. Ivermectin can have life threatening side effects
in dogs, and in particular collie and collie cross breeds and I would never
use it in these dogs. With other dogs there is still a risk, however if
given it can be very effective against sarcoptic mange.

As far as dose goes, our formulary says maximum 6 grams of a 0.1% for a 15kg
dog, every 2 weeks for 4-6 weeks, but as I have not viewed the medication, I
cannot be certain this is correct. If there are no other licenced
medications in Thailand for sarcoptic mange, this may be your only option.
The administration of this medication is however at the owners risk and we
are not able to advise either way on its use.

Kind regards
____________________________________________

You make good points sophon although there does seem to be some conflicting sides to the use of this medication

and i can see there is a few differences of opinion like there is with Doctors at times.

But i really appreciate your advice to me which was very generous of you,

Good Luck and good health to you and your DogS

[Sophon]

I think that almost all medication have potential side effects, but based on the advice given to me by very knowledgable people one of these a vet (Soi Dogs must have treated thousands of dogs with Ivermectin), and confirmed by my own experience is that Ivermectin is a very safe drug to use in dogs that don't have the gene mutation. You would need a very high dose to cause an acute overdose. Normal dogs are able to flush out the drug from their system, whereas dogs with the gene mutation isn't able to effectively do this resulting in the drug building up in their brain over time and causing permanent damage or even death.

Given that my experience tells me that the drug is safe, I am happy to give a slightly higher than normal dosage to provide whatever protection I can against parasites. We lost three dogs last year to the tick diseases Anaplasmosis and Ehrlichiosis. So for us there are threats out there that pose a much higher risk to our dogs health than Ivermectin does, and we would much rather give a high dosage of Ivermectin (even if it's not perfect in protecting against ticks) than risk supplying insufficient protection.

Here is a picture of Sassy now that she is back to normal. I think that mange is one of the worst diseases out there when it comes to destroying the life quality of a dog. It's horrible to see them scratch themselves to blood trying to ease an never ending itch.

And here are (almost all of) our dogs most of which have been on Ivermectin for the last five years without any adverse effects.

Sophon

[POMCHOB]

Hi sophon

I am sorry to hear about the loss of your dogs.

Thank-you for sharing all your knowledge ,i can see your doing a great job from the Photos

some very happy dogs there and very pleased with the progress with Sassy looks much better so well done your

doing a great job in helping those lovely looking dogs .

Keep up the good work too

POMCHOB

[POMCHOB]

Does anyone have an idea where i can purchase in Thailand..... Genuine..... Advantage Multi or Revolution for dogs
as i tried online websites outside Thailand who explain they cannot send internationally due to the Licence.
I would be very grateful for advice.
The dog cannot go to a Vet as it is more like a street dog.

POMCHOB