Westerners waiing to Thais.Why would you?

[nauseus]

I will wai or return one as appropriate. If I get it a bit wrong (too high/low or whatever), as a falang, it seems I am forgiven (with a knowing smile) and I like doing it. So much more hygienic than a sweaty handshake anyway. Remember where you are and be nice!

[Shiver]

I don't know all the intricacies. I wai infrequently, though I make a point of doing it mostly for family settings or a group that means a lot to the person I'm with. If I make eye contact with an older person then I'll wai first (about up to the nose), and a typical response would be a smile and a lower wai in return (about to the chest and done very casually). If kids wai me then I usually nod, smile and perhaps wave rather than wai. If they're not kids but still younger than me then I wait to see if they initiate it (the pii / nong thing), otherwise I'll skip it altogether and think nothing of it.

It comes natural to them, but for me I need to be on my toes to notice or consider it. I do get bored of anybody saying 'cheers' with their drinks every two sips far more than the wai though, especially when I'm on soda and they're 3/4 of the way through their whisky. Almost makes the wai a joy (once and then done,at least until leaving time).

Edited May 26, 2016 by Shiver

[Tchooptip]

Thai's do it too much. When I go to the bank or even some shops, they wai me . Very unnecessary , but I kinda wai back. The problem is that I always have something in my hands , so my waiing back is awkward but it doesn't seem to irritate or offend them.

I do wai back to "private" wai for instance my owner, an old lady, but certainly not to "commercial one" like the bank employee or shop assistant, when entering HomePro the guard at the door wai almost every one coming in, I have seen some tourists returning the wai.

Preposterous! But being not a brute I smile back yes.

My DIL husband wai me when coming or living, I never wai back, he is too young, since we get along well, I answer with a smile and a hello or bye bye sign with my right hand.

[Srikcir]

Wai is just a form of respect and greeting.

No it isn't.

The wai is a display of master/servant or lord/serf status in a feudal society.

I think you are correct, in all but your grammar. The wai WAS a display of master/servant or lord/serf status in a feudal society.

200 years ago, this display did connote that sort of class structure.

But that was then. This is now. The culture has evolved considerably in 200 years, and now the wai has nothing what so ever to do with master or servant, but rather respect for individuals. I doubt the Vice-president of the bank believes me to be his master when he greets me with a wai. I know I certainly don't think of him as my servant.

Certainly there are all levels of respect due to various individuals, be they street sweepers or Conglomerate CEOs.

If a person is lacking in self-respect, they will find it hard to respect others, no matter who they are.

200 years ago?

Watch some of the modern day Thai soap operas as well as the the ones that take place 200 years ago.

Thailand hasn't evolve socially as much as some Westerners think.

[MUSTYJACK]

The wai these days has become (in most instances) a meaningless and casualised gesture, bearing little relevance to the intended meaning, which is to either display the social superiority or acknowledge the social subservience between the two people involved. To me there is no respect involved, only grovelling and subservience by one of the parties, and acceptance of the awful system of status that exists in Thai society

The handshake on the other hand, is a greeting between two equals, that should guarantee that for the duration of the exchange initiated by the handshake, both will respect each other as equals.

It is for these reasons that I will neither subjugate myself or elevate myself by participating in the silly charade known as the wai.

[lensta]

I agree 100%, not only that, I think foreigners look stupid when they try to wai. I think most educated Thais understand this and don't expect foreigners to wai to them and are more than happy with a friendly wave. You are not Thai so why try to Thai.

[honu]

My understanding is that returning a wai is always appropriate, no matter who initiated it, who did it first, even if it is children or a waitress.

Of course most people expect that foreigners aren't going to know the custom so if you nod instead it wouldn't be the same as if a Thai did that, which would be rude. But really it's not so difficult to just wai back when they do it.

About the different forms of the wai, the levels the hands are held, as a foreigner it seems safe enough to just ignore all that, and give them all the same wai in return.

Per Thai custom it's my understanding that it is bad form to wai anyone less senior first, a younger person or someone clearly on a lower class or social level. Being a foreigner one is really outside all that system, to some extent, but still the age aspect applies. An old superstition I've heard of says that doing so is bad luck for them, that it could lead to them dying younger, but of course that's just obsolete superstition, but still it is bad form.

Whether or not to wai people that are obviously more senior depends on the degree to which a foreigner wants to participate in Thai culture. As a function of foreigners not being automatically included either judgment for that seems to work, per Thai culture.

[garryjohns]

Found this online and i do agree with it;

Rule Number 1.

Never wai anyone. The wai is a way of two Thais establishing where they stand in relation to each other. Who wais who and how serious the wai is depends on their relative ages, status, wealth, and family relationship. As a Westerner, you don't slot into the Thai hierarchy, so the wai doesn't apply. There are two views as to why this is so. The Western view would be that we are so far above them in terms of status, that there is no need to wai anyone. The Thai view would be that we are so inferior that a wai is unnecessary. Either way, Rule Number 1 applies. Any attempt at using a wai will result in you showing your ignorance.

The Thai who is lower in status initiates the wai. And the wai of the lower status Thai is more formal than the Thai of higher status. This is why it is so ridiculous when a farang wais a serving girl, a bargirl or a pimp. You are effectively saying that you are inferior to them (though in the case of most sex tourists, that's probably true).

[lensta]

I agree 100%, not only that, I think foreigners look stupid when they try to wai. I think most educated Thais understand this and don't expect foreigners to wai to them and are more than happy with a friendly wave. You are not Thai so why try to Thai.

Nonsense....For us who have been here a while we learn there is a time to Wai and a time not to Wai, when one has been here a while one learns this stuff...

For instance, the Mayoress of Ubon Wai's me at events, so what do you think l should do....?

Smile wave back and say hello. I have been here a little while also and have never seen a foreigner look comfortable and at ease waiing. I have learnt in my time here that if you rely to a wai in a friendly manner it brings a smile to the Thai persons face and they are happy. All is well.

[Tomtomtom69]

Do you wai and why?

Why not??

If a Thai extends a handshake to you do you also ignore that since handshakes is not *their* culture???

You worry about doing it exactly right or giving the wrong impression if done wrong but in the years I have been here

I have never seen a wai unappreciated nor not returned

So yes 100% I wai ....as it is the polite thing to do IMHO

Agreed. On the handshake part, I generally don't want to see Thais offering me a handshake. It is not part of their culture and I am actually offended by it. To me it's a sign that they see me as an outsider. As I try my best to integrate, I like the wai. Also, I am not keen on touching skin considering that you can have all sorts of germs passed on - handshakes are fine for formal business situations but even then if there are Thais present I generally do my best to avoid shaking hands.

We westerners aren't even shaking hands as much as we used to. A Thai offering a handshake therefore just looks pretentious.

I wai depending on the situation but for the most part don't go overboard with it. I rarely wai younger people or waitstaff, servers and bellboys. Generally only nod my head. To express thanks, a longer wai. In a Buddhist temple, place my palms higher up on my forehead to express respect. No real need to "wai" Thai friends, unless they are at least 5-10 years older than me.

[Tomtomtom69]

Found this online and i do agree with it;

Rule Number 1.

Never wai anyone. The wai is a way of two Thais establishing where they stand in relation to each other. Who wais who and how serious the wai is depends on their relative ages, status, wealth, and family relationship. As a Westerner, you don't slot into the Thai hierarchy, so the wai doesn't apply. There are two views as to why this is so. The Western view would be that we are so far above them in terms of status, that there is no need to wai anyone. The Thai view would be that we are so inferior that a wai is unnecessary. Either way, Rule Number 1 applies. Any attempt at using a wai will result in you showing your ignorance.

The Thai who is lower in status initiates the wai. And the wai of the lower status Thai is more formal than the Thai of higher status. This is why it is so ridiculous when a farang wais a serving girl, a bargirl or a pimp. You are effectively saying that you are inferior to them (though in the case of most sex tourists, that's probably true).

Stickman? The guy that wrote this is probably an inferior sex tourist himself.

Waiing is the right thing for foreigners to do - we can fit into the hierarchy in the same way as Thais do, dependent upon our salary and status etc. assuming we've been here for a certain amount of time. Waiing waitstaff, bar girls etc. is wrong. But NOT waiing a Thai of higher status is actually a bit of an insult towards them. As a first time high level executive, you can be excused from waiing your hosts due to ignorance of the culture, but even then, it seems a bit odd that you wouldn't have read a book about Thai culture before coming here.

I wouldn't make a huge deal about waiing, because on an everyday basis it's probably not something you need to bother doing. Not waiing elders, higher status persons,monks etc. is however an insult.

[bazza40]

I only wai when a Thai wais me first. Then, I return the wai if it is someone elderly or of some equal status. If they are waitstaff or in a massage shop,I smile and nod. If a Thai does not wai me, I don't worry about it.

[lensta]

I agree 100%, not only that, I think foreigners look stupid when they try to wai. I think most educated Thais understand this and don't expect foreigners to wai to them and are more than happy with a friendly wave. You are not Thai so why try to Thai.

Nonsense....For us who have been here a while we learn there is a time to Wai and a time not to Wai, when one has been here a while one learns this stuff...

For instance, the Mayoress of Ubon Wai's me at events, so what do you think l should do....?

Smile wave back and say hello. I have been here a little while also and have never seen a foreigner look comfortable and at ease waiing. I have learnt in my time here that if you rely to a wai in a friendly manner it brings a smile to the Thai persons face and they are happy. All is well.

Well you have learned nothing then, stuck in your farangland hi-so/better than you world.....

Not at all, I don't judge people to be higher or lower than me. I take them as they come. However, you seem to have been unable to grasp that no matter how hard you try or how much you grovel, you are not and never will be Thai. As was said in a previous post "the wai is a Thai to Thai thing" leave them to it.

[MUSTYJACK]

But NOT waiing a Thai of higher status is actually a bit of an insult towards them

How exactly do you ascertain the status of someone you may never have met before deciding whether to wai them or not

It sounds as if you assume everyone is of higher status than yourself.

By wealth? possibly ill gotten wealth.

By position in the company hierarchy? to someone who may have got where they are not by ability, but by nepotism.

By age? why is age such a decider of status.

[thaiduncankk]

I do not even have to think about doing it nowadays, it comes natural.

[hml367]

No wonder so many foreigners have a difficult time accepting that Chiang Mai is not a cheaper, Florida ( for US people) retirement community.

[garryjohns]

Do you wai and why?

Why not??

If a Thai extends a handshake to you do you also ignore that since handshakes is not *their* culture???

You worry about doing it exactly right or giving the wrong impression if done wrong but in the years I have been here

I have never seen a wai unappreciated nor not returned

So yes 100% I wai ....as it is the polite thing to do IMHO

Agreed. On the handshake part, I generally don't want to see Thais offering me a handshake. It is not part of their culture and I am actually offended by it. To me it's a sign that they see me as an outsider. As I try my best to integrate, I like the wai. Also, I am not keen on touching skin considering that you can have all sorts of germs passed on - handshakes are fine for formal business situations but even then if there are Thais present I generally do my best to avoid shaking hands.

We westerners aren't even shaking hands as much as we used to. A Thai offering a handshake therefore just looks pretentious.

I wai depending on the situation but for the most part don't go overboard with it. I rarely wai younger people or waitstaff, servers and bellboys. Generally only nod my head. To express thanks, a longer wai. In a Buddhist temple, place my palms higher up on my forehead to express respect. No real need to "wai" Thai friends, unless they are at least 5-10 years older than me.

"A Thai offering a handshake therefore just looks pretentious."

No difference to a westerner offering a wai..that also looks pretentious..Yes?

[Lannig]

"A Thai offering a handshake therefore just looks pretentious."

No difference to a westerner offering a wai..that also looks pretentious..Yes?

Maybe if both were in Farangland, but we're discussing things happening in Thailand here, right?

Wrote this already (and so did another member): when in Rome...

[F4UCorsair]

In Japan, bowing is the symbol of respect, with the degree of depth of the bow significant and based on the level of respect shown.

I believe Japanese bowing has its origins with the defeated bowing down to expose his neck to the victor, a form of surrender or submission ... i.e. you can chop my head off

Then again, this is also the nation that hosts game shows where contestants get their nipples burnt under magnifying glasses.

There is NO sincerity in Japanese bowing, only a trained in custom.

I couldn't do it when I lived there, and felt that if I did, I may cop a knife in the back of the neck....... and I didn't lose the war!!

As for foreigners wai'ing to Thais, and other Asians, I often think it looks a little foolish, particularly when offered to a noodle vendor.

Edited May 26, 2016 by F4UCorsair

[pgrahmm]

I do not even have to think about doing it nowadays, it comes natural.

Wow....

A habitual wai'er ....

Sorry

[garryjohns]

"A Thai offering a handshake therefore just looks pretentious."

No difference to a westerner offering a wai..that also looks pretentious..Yes?

Maybe if both were in Farangland, but we're discussing things happening in Thailand here, right?

Wrote this already (and so did another member): when in Rome...

Yes of course we are discussing Thailand here

You say that in Thailand "A Thai offering a handshake therefore just looks pretentious."

I'm saying that IMO in Thailand "A westerner offering a wai just looks just as pretentious" right?

[Jeffkp]

I was sitting in the Plaza at Tae Pae Gate last night after my dinner. I noticed a group of young Thai studs arrive on souped up motor bikes with their girlfriends. They parked their bikes in a neat strait line. The girls got off and went to join the other ladies. The guys were standing by the bikes and as each arrival got off, they would give a very nice wai to the group, who then return it.

I thought it was all very cool!

My Thai friends have taught me you do not need to return a wai from a waitress, bank teller, etc. I nod and greeting is enough. The same as you leave.

[HerbalEd]

Waiing is no where near as complicated as you make it out to be. Also, Thais are very forgiving if you somehow get it wrong. However, I must admit to cringing a bit when I see an older farang waiing children.

[brewsterbudgen]

A wai can also be offered as an apology.

[Suradit69]

IMO waiing should be left to Thais as they naturally understand the nuances and true meanings etc of the act.

Amen. I wince when farang try to wai back to a waitress or bellboy.

I've waied a few times over many years when the person was elderly and significant in the scheme of things, but other than that a nod in response is almost always appropriate and sufficient. Waiing everything that moves is just ridiculous and looks like the person doing it is mocking the meaning of it.

It's a bit like smiles. Thai smiles have a multitude of meanings that don't correspond to the same simplistic response that most foreigners ascribe to it. It's the Land of Smiles because of their varied meaning, not because everyone is thrilled to see Khun Farang.

1. Yim yaw

This smile can be used in two ways: Firstly, when teasing someone, and secondly when wanting to express the words “I told you so”, without actually having to be so harsh.

2. Yim cheun chom

This smile is a controlled yet beautiful smile that expresses the words, “I admire you”, or, I’m proud of you”.

3. Yim mai awk

This is the smile used when concealing difficult emotion. It’s the “I’m trying my best to smile but I’m struggling” smile. This might be used when someone is brokenhearted or physically hurt.

4. Yim mee lessanai

This is a devious smile that masks bad intent. If you really upset your Thai partner, you should probably worry if you get this smile in return.

5. Yim chuead chuean

Similar to Yim mer lessanai, but more the “Mwhahaha” bad guy smile, this would be used by a person who has gotten the upper hand over someone.

6. Yim dor dhaan

This smile indicates that you disagree, but will entertain the idea or go along with the action regardless. It’s the “You can go ahead, but you know I disagree and that your idea isn’t a good one” smile.

7. Yim sao

This is the standard smile of sadness, one that indicates someone really isn’t happy.

8. Yim haeng

This is the dry smile, also known as the “I know I owe you the money but I don’t have it” smile.

9. Yim suu suu!

This is the smile of encouragement, the “You/I can do it” smile.

10. Yim yoh-yae

This smile is the Thai equivalent to suggesting that it’s not worth getting upset over something that seems pretty bad, but has happened and can’t be changed.In essence, it’s the “no point in crying over spilt milk” smile.

11. Yim thang nam daa

This smile must be interpreted in context, as it can mean two different things. On one hand it can mean “I’m so happy I’m crying inside”, and on the other, given different circumstances, “I’m so sad inside, but I’m still smiling”.

12. Fuoon Yim

This is the “mai jing jai” (literally translated as ‘not real heart’) smile. It’s a stiff and somewhat fake smile. For example, “I should laugh at the joke, but it’s not funny, so I’ll do this smile instead and help you move on”.

13. Yim taak thaai

This is the smile of convenience, a polite smile that enables you to acknowledge someone you don’t know that well, or someone you aren’t going to get into a long conversation with. It’s pretty much the most common smile you’ll get when out and about in Thailand.

[andersonat]

Learn how to do it - respect......

We are in Their culture & Their world.....

Not yours....Learn to respect & accept centuries old traditions and cultural nuances.....

Or leave.....

When I was introduced to/met with Thai's in The Netherlands, they expected that we would wai to each other - very few Thai had any interest in shaking my hand.

I had the distinct impression that they believed that their customs took precedence, no matter which country they happened to be in.

[brewsterbudgen]

Why does it cause such distress to seasoned expats when tourists wai service staff? Seems like the worst sort of patronising snobbery to me.

[andersonat]

Do you wai and why?

Why not??

If a Thai extends a handshake to you do you also ignore that since handshakes is not *their* culture???

You worry about doing it exactly right or giving the wrong impression if done wrong but in the years I have been here

I have never seen a wai unappreciated nor not returned

So yes 100% I wai ....as it is the polite thing to do IMHO

Agreed. On the handshake part, I generally don't want to see Thais offering me a handshake. It is not part of their culture and I am actually offended by it. To me it's a sign that they see me as an outsider. As I try my best to integrate, I like the wai. Also, I am not keen on touching skin considering that you can have all sorts of germs passed on - handshakes are fine for formal business situations but even then if there are Thais present I generally do my best to avoid shaking hands.

We westerners aren't even shaking hands as much as we used to. A Thai offering a handshake therefore just looks pretentious.

I wai depending on the situation but for the most part don't go overboard with it. I rarely wai younger people or waitstaff, servers and bellboys. Generally only nod my head. To express thanks, a longer wai. In a Buddhist temple, place my palms higher up on my forehead to express respect. No real need to "wai" Thai friends, unless they are at least 5-10 years older than me.

Under which circumstances would you wai waiting-staff, servers, or bellboys ?

[georgemandm]

I was about to reply to a thread that just got closed, and this was to be my input in reply to a poster who suggested waiing to make ammends to a disgruntled Thai , so thought i would open a new thread.

IMO waiing should be left to Thais as they naturally understand the nuances and true meanings etc of the act.

If not done 100% right it can give totally the wrong message and in the case mentioned of it being recommended as a means of making ammends is fraught with danger. It could well set off a more volatile reaction than make peace as was the motive.

To me, it would have to me one of the more cringeworthy acts i see in this country. ie a non Thai waiing to a Thai.

Do you wai and why?

I have to agree with you , I did it when I first came to thailand 7 years ago but now I have stop it .

Unless I get a thai who takes very good care of me if I need them to do something for me .

But I see westerns doing it and 99% of them have know idea how to do it the right way , looks stupid when they try and do it and have no idea how it is done .

So I lever it to the Thais and 99% of Thais do not get up set if a western dose not waiing back to them .

[Chicog]

I suspect this is more of an issue for farang snobs than it is for thais.