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Planes landing backwards at CNX

jobin

By jobin
in Chiang Mai

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JimGant Platinum Member

JimGant

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Obviously, they're still landing south today (6/9/16),'cause the ones coming from the south are being vectored right over Doi Saket, at about 3000' (my guess, based on reported ceiling). From 12:45 to 13:20, five A320's were headed exactly north over my house on an offset downwind leg, directly to the dam, where they turned left onto their extended base leg. Even my gardener commented on, "what's with all this air traffic?" Anyway, has anyone noted this pattern in previous years? It's a 'make sense' pattern for runway 18, but I just don't recall it in my 16plus years here.

CNXBKKMAN Silver Member

CNXBKKMAN

Posted
Posted

Obviously, they're still landing south today (6/9/16),'cause the ones coming from the south are being vectored right over Doi Saket, at about 3000' (my guess, based on reported ceiling). From 12:45 to 13:20, five A320's were headed exactly north over my house on an offset downwind leg, directly to the dam, where they turned left onto their extended base leg. Even my gardener commented on, "what's with all this air traffic?" Anyway, has anyone noted this pattern in previous years? It's a 'make sense' pattern for runway 18, but I just don't recall it in my 16plus years here.

It's the longest I have ever seen runway 18 to be in non stop use based on observations over the last 16 years. Until recently 18 was only used when a storm kicked up and an hour later they were back on 36. Even now with no wind or light wind 18 is in use. Either somebody has decided it's quieter this way for the majority of the city population and it's the new normal or runway 36 has some kind of ILS issue? Upgrade? Recalibration? going on and it's a temporary change.

I am just north of Chang Phuak gate and there is almost zero aircraft noise now. It's dropped off by about 99%. The landings on 18 cannot be heard, no 36 take offs turning right and banking over anymore. The odd rumble in the distance late at night as something takes off on 18 heading south. Will it last?

arithai12 Gold Member

arithai12

Posted
Posted

By now it seems indeed a long-term change, not wind/weather related.

They still fly overhead for us near the international convention center. They fly lower now, but the engines are quieter during landing than at take-off so in the end it's about the same. Perhaps this new version is slightly better.

WinnieTheKhwai Star Member

WinnieTheKhwai

Posted
Posted

Obviously, they're still landing south today (6/9/16),'cause the ones coming from the south are being vectored right over Doi Saket, at about 3000' (my guess, based on reported ceiling). From 12:45 to 13:20, five A320's were headed exactly north over my house on an offset downwind leg, directly to the dam, where they turned left onto their extended base leg. Even my gardener commented on, "what's with all this air traffic?" Anyway, has anyone noted this pattern in previous years? It's a 'make sense' pattern for runway 18, but I just don't recall it in my 16plus years here.

It's the longest I have ever seen runway 18 to be in non stop use based on observations over the last 16 years. Until recently 18 was only used when a storm kicked up and an hour later they were back on 36. Even now with no wind or light wind 18 is in use. Either somebody has decided it's quieter this way for the majority of the city population and it's the new normal or runway 36 has some kind of ILS issue? Upgrade? Recalibration? going on and it's a temporary change.

Would anyone like me to just ask a person at air CNX air traffic control?

I didn't think this was going to be a serious topic but we're pretty much up to the standard level of random howling at the moon so we might as well answer the question and put things to bed.

CNXBKKMAN Silver Member

CNXBKKMAN

Posted
Posted

Skimming those notams it looks like taxiway work is ongoing that may slowdown take offs from 36 and possibly landings getting off 36 at the 18 end, slowing the airport down? I am no airman so perhaps Arunsakda could clarify anything relevant in the latest notams. Winnie if you know somebody in the tower or airport ops asking them would hit the nail on the head.

garryjohns Senior Member

garryjohns

Posted
Posted

Skimming those notams it looks like taxiway work is ongoing that may slowdown take offs from 36 and possibly landings getting off 36 at the 18 end, slowing the airport down? I am no airman so perhaps Arunsakda could clarify anything relevant in the latest notams. Winnie if you know somebody in the tower or airport ops asking them would hit the nail on the head.

The two cranes may well be the cause.

What do you interpret kaptainrob,seeing as you posted the llnk?

CNXBKKMAN Silver Member

CNXBKKMAN

Posted
Posted (edited)

The cranes are on the 18 runway approach which is the runway in use at the moment so I don't think that affects anything. It's just a warning for helicopters and light aircraft. I noticed the this Kiwi Air flight departed 36 this morning. The other airline traffic at the same time departed 18. The KiwI Air flight is a light aircraft and only needs a short patch of runway so it could line up in the middle of the runway using a taxiway that the bigger aircraft would never use because they need the full length. Taxiway work may be forcing the use of 18?

post-113867-0-51085600-1465612723_thumb.

Edited by CNXBKKMAN
Aussie69 Apprentice Member

Aussie69

Posted
Posted

I was going to post the VTCC STARs (Standard Terminal Arrival Routes) to explain the path taken by the arriving aircraft, however I cannot export or generate images of the charts from my electronic source.

WinnieTheKhwai Star Member

WinnieTheKhwai

Posted
Posted

Skimming those notams it looks like taxiway work is ongoing that may slowdown take offs from 36 and possibly landings getting off 36 at the 18 end, slowing the airport down? I am no airman so perhaps Arunsakda could clarify anything relevant in the latest notams. Winnie if you know somebody in the tower or airport ops asking them would hit the nail on the head.

I just asked; is due to work on the runway/taxiway, they'll go back to normal patterns after the work completes.

kaptainrob Silver Member

kaptainrob

Posted
Posted

If I'm reading it correctly the relevant NOTAM advises of 'rough surfaces' on taxiways and takeoff via runway 36 not permitted. One might assume that remedial work is in progress although the latest NOTAM suggest closure of 18/36 for all of July, between 1800 and 2300hrs daily for WIP (work in progress).

harrry Star Member

harrry

Posted
Posted

If I'm reading it correctly the relevant NOTAM advises of 'rough surfaces' on taxiways and takeoff via runway 36 not permitted. One might assume that remedial work is in progress although the latest NOTAM suggest closure of 18/36 for all of July, between 1800 and 2300hrs daily for WIP (work in progress).

Strange....

18 36 are actually just two ends of the same runway. I guess it could be possible that the taxiways to the south can only support light weighted aircraft and hence be used to go to the terminal light after a landing but not for the heavier takeoff taxi.

I guess also as the terminals are closer to the northern end if it is needed to taxi to them they can do it easily but if southern taxiways are unuseable a long backtrack taxi along 18 to get to the 36 takeoff position would waste a lot of airport runway time which could be a problem.

WonderousWand Rookie Member

WonderousWand

Posted
Posted

You know, the 737 I fly is certificated for 15 knot tailwind takeoff/landing as long as certain conditions are complied with. Then we routinely climb up to altitude and sometimes enjoy tailwinds of 80, 100, 200+ knots, you name it

So why do we not "flip over", experience "instability", or stall?

Yes, a tailwind increases takeoff or landing distance required (ceteris paribus) but "Air flowing accross the wings" has nothing to with groundspeed and tailwind operations are not germane to a discussion of aerodynamic stability or stalling at all.

I understand why people might think such things, but they never read it in any flight manual or heard it from somebody who knows what they are talking about so it is baffling to me why people continue to post such rubbish, even on an internet forum. Then again so-called professional journalists publish sensational inane things all the time whenever there is a major accident/incident. Based solely on speculation and with poor understanding of basic aeronautic principles and flight operations standards and procedures.

CNN "B777 will struggle hold altitude with empty fuel tanks!"

attachicon.gifImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1464764133.001215.jpg

I do not doubt you.

But...

Why do Taiwan pilots and planes love to land upside down?

In Hong Kong. And in Japan.

What is it that these pilots love to do that makes their planes flip over on their backs just before touchdown?

Is this a maneuver that they learned while serving in their military?

The passengers don't like it, but the pilots seem not to care, and they just keep doing it.

arunsakda Gold Member

arunsakda

Posted
Posted (edited)

A1145/16 NOTAMR A1123/16 Q) VTBB/QMXLC/IV/NBO/A/000/999/1846N09858E005 A) VTCC cool.png 1605310927 C) 1606301100 E) TWY H CLSD RMK : DUE TO RWY ROUGH SFC BACK TRACK AT THE END OF RWY 18 IS NOT ALLOWED DECLARED DISTANCES AS FLW: RWY TORA(M) TODA(M) ASDA(M) LDA(M) 18 3400 3400 3500 2800

If I'm reading it correctly the relevant NOTAM advises of 'rough surfaces' on taxiways and takeoff via runway 36 not permitted. One might assume that remedial work is in progress although the latest NOTAM suggest closure of 18/36 for all of July, between 1800 and 2300hrs daily for WIP (work in progress).

Those times are GMT. May be in for some quiet nights but at other airports allowances are routinely made for scheduled arrivals.

The NOTAM says Taxiway H (hotel) is closed. Nothing to do with RW36 departure but if unable to "backtrack (u-turn) at end of 18" one would enter at Taxiway Golf for example, for a 36 departure. Full length would not be available if Hotel is closed and you can't turn around at the very end.

Reduced runway distance, intersection departure, can be accounted for in performance calculations.

VTCC_GND-TAXI.pdf

Edited by arunsakda
dave2 Platinum Member

dave2

Posted
Posted

re

I was going to post the VTCC STARs (Standard Terminal Arrival Routes) to explain the path taken by the arriving aircraft, however I cannot export or generate images of the charts from my electronic source.

i can :)

its the big white thing with a black tail under the arrow :)

just joshin .. dave2

post-42592-0-48801000-1465631198_thumb.j

dcnx Silver Member

dcnx

Posted
Posted

Sorry we conda can't all be Space Shuttle mission Commanders and 747 Captains blink.png .

You know, the 737 I fly is certificated for 15 knot tailwind takeoff/landing as long as certain conditions are complied with. Then we routinely climb up to altitude and sometimes enjoy tailwinds of 80, 100, 200+ knots, you name it

So why do we not "flip over", experience "instability", or stall?

Yes, a tailwind increases takeoff or landing distance required (ceteris paribus) but "Air flowing accross the wings" has nothing to with groundspeed and tailwind operations are not germane to a discussion of aerodynamic stability or stalling at all.

I understand why people might think such things, but they never read it in any flight manual or heard it from somebody who knows what they are talking about so it is baffling to me why people continue to post such rubbish, even on an internet forum. Then again so-called professional journalists publish sensational inane things all the time whenever there is a major accident/incident. Based solely on speculation and with poor understanding of basic aeronautic principles and flight operations standards and procedures.

CNN "B777 will struggle hold altitude with empty fuel tanks!"

attachicon.gifImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1464764133.001215.jpg

I agree with most of what you said however I do think you ma need to think about the sentance about takeoff distance.

A plane takes off at the airspeed calculated to enable it to climb. (simpification agreed)....If this speed is 145 knots this speed will be reached at a groundspeed of 0 knots if the headwind is 145 knots. If there is a tailwind of 145 knots it would need to be doing a groundspeed of 290 knots. It takes distance to get the airpeed from negative 145 knots to 0 knots and then the aircraft has to add another 145 knots airspeed to lift off.

This lift is produced by the air flowing across the wings....and thus has a lot to do with groundspeed and tailwind ops......not however with aerodynamic stability.

Of course speed/direction of wind, is a factor in takeoff and landing performance calculations, as I wrote in my post.

In your extreme example of the plane taking off in 145 know headwind it is not becoming airborne because of groundspeed reached but lift developed (simplification agreed). We have all see Helicopters and aerobatic aircraft perform flawlessly with zero groundspeed. A wing or other airfoil does not give a monkey's about the direction or strength of the prevailing wind. Clearly you know what you are talking about but there is lot of confusion here. Explained quite clearly in Langewiesche's book.

Parked planes in trouble..

Being a space shuttle commander has a certain allure to it.....but really a 747 'captain' and I use that term loosely (captains command ships) is not much more than a bus driver.....even less so with the more modern aircraft that a kid with some video game skills could operate.I asked a work colleague what her husband did for work - apparently he is a 'coach captain'.

Ahahahahaha.

Thanks for the afternoon chuckle.

kjhbigv Gold Member

kjhbigv

Posted
Posted (edited)

This can not be down to weather. How come in the many years of plane watching in CNX it's only recently this has been happening? I can only remember the odd occasion planes landing from the north. The weather and winds haven't changed. First time I have ever landed from the north was yesterday Thai A330.

Edited by kjhbigv

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