Koh Tao murders appeal reveals shocking new evidence suggesting unfair trial and wrongful conviction

[JLCrab]

The theologians call it a "Leap of Faith" which Wikipedia defines as "...the act of believing in or accepting something intangible or unprovable, or without empirical evidence."

Which is what can be said about a lot of the so called evidence that was used to convict the 2 Burmese.

Maybe so but I was addressing your hocus-pocus about someone being there when you cannot find one person who was there that evening who will say publicly or even anonymously on CSILA etc. that they saw him there at the C Bar or anywhere else on the island that evening.

I have never said that I agreed with the decision of the Samui Court but have only tried to understand how and why they reached the decision that they did.

Nothing hocus-pocus about someone being somewhere, and there being evidence to prove it. His family and friends are not going to corroborate the evidence. Migrant staff at the resort and nearby would not dare to. And tourists, who have long since gone home, would probably not know one Thai man from another. Neither would they dare to return to make a statement or testify.

The hocus-pocus started when someone of interest popped up a week or so later claiming not to have been there, with dubious looking evidence in support. Then when the initial head of the investigation was taken off the case ("promoted" aka kicked up stairs) it continued apace.

From the above did you mean to say that it is not hocus-pocus that someone might be there and there NOT being evidence to prove it?

We can go around in circles. If the person you think is the real killer were ever brought to trial, how would you prove he was even there the night of these crimes? More hocus-pocus about what others know but won't or can't or are afraid to tell? If that person were ever brought to trial the Prosecution would have to prove that he WAS there, not that he would have to prove that he wasn't.

[stander]

I certainly agree, arbitration is a battle of attrition. As for criminal law, I disagree with you on being disingenuous and in the case they got it right.

Now, if you could please inform us why?

As I said previously, I had no real interest or opinion in this case, prior to coming across the discussions here and as the threads progressed I found that the case being put forward by the guilty camp to be more convincing.

I don't pay any attention to media reports, I rely on feedback here from both camps and I am still convinced of their guilt, this you can see if you go trawl through all the posts and see where I have liked a post, which indicates agreement.

[Khun Han]

If the rug of support from Thai officialdom was pulled from under the real murderers, their lies and cover up would be quickly exposed.

[xylophone]

How could you possibly find them guilty have you read any of the defence points ?

What do you disagree with ?

"DNA files presented had the accused names on them, rather than a proper file reference number. This is not possible without pre-knowledge of whose DNA the sample being tested belonged to.

The DNA on the murder weapon matched neither of the accused. The police originally claimed the murder weapon had no DNA evidence.

The DNA tests presented by the prosecution were not provided with the necessary supportive documents showing multiple procedures required to meet ISO 17025 standards required in DNA testing. Including the chain of custody, method of testing, graph generation and analysis report."

The police claimed a 100% DNA match with the accused from samples taken from the victim’s body this is scientifically impossible in any forensic lab anywhere in the world.

The prosecution presented their case, the defence presented their case and in the end the they were found guilty as charged, that’s enough for me.

The Miller family are also convinced of their guilt and that says a lot.

Also as a proponent of the death penalty, it would be hypocritical of me not to want to see the sentence carried out, after all avenues of appeal have failed.

I was about to post something similar to that which "StealthEnergiser" posted, but with more of the points relating to the "evidence" which wasn't presented by the prosecution, however took a break from it and have returned to look at it and something really stands out from this post.

Stander is basing his support of the guilty verdict on the fact that they were found guilty, not that the whole case could well have been a total miscarriage of justice, nor that the Thai police and the Thai legal system can be and often are corrupt. Nor seemingly that in most other countries this case would have been thrown out a long time ago.

Taking that stance is taking the view that the Thai police and legal system are beyond reproach, rather than looking at the plain and straightforward facts of the case – – that there is absolutely no evidence, no evidence whatsoever, to link these two Burmese with the murders.

Irrespective of how strong the defence case was or was not, is not the point, because the guilty verdict had to be reached to satisfy the General, appease powerful people and save face. So a guilty verdict was a given even before the trial started, irrespective of what evidence was presented to support innocence.

So arguing the point with this poster is a waste of time, given his statement, "The prosecution presented their case, the defence presented their case and in the end the they were found guilty as charged, that’s enough for me".

How a guilty verdict could be returned in view of the following is beyond belief and certainly doesn’t represent justice by any standards……….

1). The handling and lack of chain of custody of the DNA samples was widely criticized, the missing wine bottle and cigarette butts as well as the female victims clothes, all said to have carried vital DNA evidence, were missing entirely from the trial.

2). The lack of CCTV footage of the crimes linking the two men to anywhere other than the crowded beach has caused grave concern and of course without a single piece of CCTV footage, or a single witness to the actual crime, it is hard to believe that any court could find the two men guilty without reasonable doubt and sentence them to death.

3). Their DNA was never found on the murder weapon. The actual DNA on the murder weapon matched neither of the accused.

4). Fingerprints from the accused on the mobile phone that belonged to one of the victims were never produced. This raises the question of who they actually belonged to. There was absolutely no forensic evidence presented by the prosecution connecting the mobile phone to the accused.

5). The prosecution speculated that the motive for the attack was the accused being aroused by both victims having sexual intercourse on the beach. There is no evidence to suggest this ever took place.

6). The Thai autopsy was no more than a four page summary by the doctor. The legally required autopsy file documenting the procedure with step-by-step photos and point to point analysis was never presented.

7). The DNA tests presented by the prosecution were not provided with the necessary supportive documents showing multiple procedures required to meet ISO 17025 standards required in DNA testing, including the chain of custody, method of testing, graph generation and analysis report.

8). The police claimed a 100% DNA match with the accused from samples taken from the victim’s body this is scientifically impossible in any forensic lab anywhere in the world.

9). During the interrogation a hostile interpreter was appointed by the police who cannot read written Thai. The defendants were never properly advised of the murder charges nor their rights under Thai law.

10). The suspects were arrested on unrelated charges before being questioned about the murders without an attorney present and their statements were entered as part of the prosecution’s evidence. This is a violation of Thai law and grounds for dismissal of the case.

[WhizBang]

Maybe, just maybe, "face" might be put aside for once, the PM steps in and does the right thing, releases the suspects and arrests all those complicit in this frameup, including the Police who have been paid off, and those influential figures that walked all over the crime scene, fled the island and faked the video showing them at their student dorm.

I'm dreaming, I know ... but if "Thailand" ever wants to be taken seriously, this is the time.

Yes indeed, you are dreaming. Prayut would stand to lose face as he congratulated the cops for a job well done, and even gave them a reward, if memory serves.

Unfortunately, what I expect will happen is that everyone involved in this fiasco will now close ranks and the BS will be piled on thick and deep to discredit any negative comments. I would not be at all be surprised to see the appeal denied.

'Thailand' is not concerned about being taken seriously. Saving face is far more important.

[Bender]

filthy country.....

[jimmybkk]

Stander is basing his support of the guilty verdict on the fact that they were found guilty, not that the whole case could well have been a total miscarriage of justice, nor that the Thai police and the Thai legal system can be and often are corrupt. Nor seemingly that in most other countries this case would have been thrown out a long time ago.

Taking that stance is taking the view that the Thai police and legal system are beyond reproach, rather than looking at the plain and straightforward facts of the case – – that there is absolutely no evidence, no evidence whatsoever, to link these two Burmese with the murders.

Irrespective of how strong the defence case was or was not, is not the point, because the guilty verdict had to be reached to satisfy the General, appease powerful people and save face. So a guilty verdict was a given even before the trial started, irrespective of what evidence was presented to support innocence.

So arguing the point with this poster is a waste of time, given his statement, "The prosecution presented their case, the defence presented their case and in the end the they were found guilty as charged, that’s enough for me".

How a guilty verdict could be returned in view of the following is beyond belief and certainly doesn’t represent justice by any standards……….

You have unearthed the very foundations of the arguments that have been put forth by the pro-guilty crew from day one... Their modus operandi follows an approach many parents use when faced with a child questioning the existence of Santa Claus:

Kid to Parent: "Daddy, some of the kids at school are saying that Santa doesn't really exist... That there's no way he could fit down a chimney to deliver our presents and that reindeers can't fly..."

Parent to Kid: "Oh really? Well, I guess if that's true there won't be any presents to open on Christmas morning then. Let's just wait until Christmas morning and see, shall we...?"

And so on Christmas morning...

Parent to Kid: "You see...? I told you Santa Claus exists. If he didn't, how could all of these presents have gotten here...?"

Before the trial the mantra is: "Let's just wait and see how the evidence presented stands up to scrutiny at the trial, shall we...?". After the trial the mantra changes to: 'Well... the evidence must have been fairly conclusive if it convinced the judge to hand down a guilty verdict..."

[JLCrab]

Andy Hall wrote 24 DEC 2015 Thai time:

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Defense team respects court decision but moves to appeal verdict. Defense position is prosecution didn't prove beyond doubt the main charges

8:01 PM - 23 Dec 2015

If you choose not to respect the decision of the Samui Court, that's up to you but, at least for now, that doesn't change anything.

[stephenterry]

It's just a diplomatic way of AH saying the conviction was pure B/S, as there was no evidence to support the verdict. What hasn't been mentioned is that the top Region 8 official demanded to review the court's judgement prior to it being made public. I have little doubt he had the clout to demand changes if it damaged Thailand's reputation (whatever that is), and also to hold the judges 'careers' accountable for their actions if the B2 were aquitted. I also consider that review to be a bona fide contempt of court, and should never have been permitted by a higher authority..

Not that it would make an iota of difference, seems like justice can be perverted at will, if you're a big enough fish. And, IMO, having the same Region 8 crew handling the Appeal, there is little doubt that the conviction will stand, albeit the sentence could be reduced.

[sweatalot]

You seem exceptionality well informed. Does the the doubt Hanna's family have expressed about the case and the convictions say much?

I could ask you the same of the Miller family who have expressed satisfaction.

http://www.telegraph...r-Thailand.html

What about the Withering family who did the opposite?

[sweatalot]

@stander

So the D.NA defence points are irrelevant to you?

The Judges are not forensic scientists, those reports are highly complicated, and what they were presented with was adequate- they accepted it as such as Thai law provides for. It was up to the defense AT THAT time to disprove the findings, but they did not

It was up to the defense AT THAT time to disprove the findings, but they did not

Oh, they did

but the court did not care

[sweatalot]

How could you possibly find them guilty have you read any of the defence points ?

What do you disagree with ?

"DNA files presented had the accused names on them, rather than a proper file reference number. This is not possible without pre-knowledge of whose DNA the sample being tested belonged to.

The DNA on the murder weapon matched neither of the accused. The police originally claimed the murder weapon had no DNA evidence.

The DNA tests presented by the prosecution were not provided with the necessary supportive documents showing multiple procedures required to meet ISO 17025 standards required in DNA testing. Including the chain of custody, method of testing, graph generation and analysis report."

The police claimed a 100% DNA match with the accused from samples taken from the victim’s body this is scientifically impossible in any forensic lab anywhere in the world.

The prosecution presented their case, the defence presented their case and in the end the they were found guilty as charged, that’s enough for me.

The Miller family are also convinced of their guilt and that says a lot.

Also as a proponent of the death penalty, it would be hypocritical of me not to want to see the sentence carried out, after all avenues of appeal have failed.

I was about to post something similar to that which "StealthEnergiser" posted, but with more of the points relating to the "evidence" which wasn't presented by the prosecution, however took a break from it and have returned to look at it and something really stands out from this post.

Stander is basing his support of the guilty verdict on the fact that they were found guilty, not that the whole case could well have been a total miscarriage of justice, nor that the Thai police and the Thai legal system can be and often are corrupt. Nor seemingly that in most other countries this case would have been thrown out a long time ago.

Taking that stance is taking the view that the Thai police and legal system are beyond reproach, rather than looking at the plain and straightforward facts of the case – – that there is absolutely no evidence, no evidence whatsoever, to link these two Burmese with the murders.

Irrespective of how strong the defence case was or was not, is not the point, because the guilty verdict had to be reached to satisfy the General, appease powerful people and save face. So a guilty verdict was a given even before the trial started, irrespective of what evidence was presented to support innocence.

So arguing the point with this poster is a waste of time, given his statement, "The prosecution presented their case, the defence presented their case and in the end the they were found guilty as charged, that’s enough for me".

How a guilty verdict could be returned in view of the following is beyond belief and certainly doesn’t represent justice by any standards……….

1). The handling and lack of chain of custody of the DNA samples was widely criticized, the missing wine bottle and cigarette butts as well as the female victims clothes, all said to have carried vital DNA evidence, were missing entirely from the trial.

2). The lack of CCTV footage of the crimes linking the two men to anywhere other than the crowded beach has caused grave concern and of course without a single piece of CCTV footage, or a single witness to the actual crime, it is hard to believe that any court could find the two men guilty without reasonable doubt and sentence them to death.

3). Their DNA was never found on the murder weapon. The actual DNA on the murder weapon matched neither of the accused.

4). Fingerprints from the accused on the mobile phone that belonged to one of the victims were never produced. This raises the question of who they actually belonged to. There was absolutely no forensic evidence presented by the prosecution connecting the mobile phone to the accused.

5). The prosecution speculated that the motive for the attack was the accused being aroused by both victims having sexual intercourse on the beach. There is no evidence to suggest this ever took place.

6). The Thai autopsy was no more than a four page summary by the doctor. The legally required autopsy file documenting the procedure with step-by-step photos and point to point analysis was never presented.

7). The DNA tests presented by the prosecution were not provided with the necessary supportive documents showing multiple procedures required to meet ISO 17025 standards required in DNA testing, including the chain of custody, method of testing, graph generation and analysis report.

8). The police claimed a 100% DNA match with the accused from samples taken from the victim’s body this is scientifically impossible in any forensic lab anywhere in the world.

9). During the interrogation a hostile interpreter was appointed by the police who cannot read written Thai. The defendants were never properly advised of the murder charges nor their rights under Thai law.

10). The suspects were arrested on unrelated charges before being questioned about the murders without an attorney present and their statements were entered as part of the prosecution’s evidence. This is a violation of Thai law and grounds for dismissal of the case.

Thank you for that summary. I just want to add that there are suspects who were really suspicious of being the killer(s). But they were totally excluded from investigation.

[sweatalot]

Maybe, just maybe, "face" might be put aside for once, the PM steps in and does the right thing, releases the suspects and arrests all those complicit in this frameup, including the Police who have been paid off, and those influential figures that walked all over the crime scene, fled the island and faked the video showing them at their student dorm.

I'm dreaming, I know ... but if "Thailand" ever wants to be taken seriously, this is the time.

Yes indeed, you are dreaming. Prayut would stand to lose face as he congratulated the cops for a job well done, and even gave them a reward, if memory serves.

Unfortunately, what I expect will happen is that everyone involved in this fiasco will now close ranks and the BS will be piled on thick and deep to discredit any negative comments. I would not be at all be surprised to see the appeal denied.

'Thailand' is not concerned about being taken seriously. Saving face is far more important.

"Thailand' is not concerned about being taken seriously. Saving face is far more important."

... until they learn that abroad they have no face to loose anymore

[JLCrab]

It's just a diplomatic way of AH saying the conviction was pure B/S, as there was no evidence to support the verdict. What hasn't been mentioned is that the top Region 8 official demanded to review the court's judgement prior to it being made public. I have little doubt he had the clout to demand changes if it damaged Thailand's reputation (whatever that is), and also to hold the judges 'careers' accountable for their actions if the B2 were aquitted. I also consider that review to be a bona fide contempt of court, and should never have been permitted by a higher authority..

Not that it would make an iota of difference, seems like justice can be perverted at will, if you're a big enough fish. And, IMO, having the same Region 8 crew handling the Appeal, there is little doubt that the conviction will stand, albeit the sentence could be reduced.

So I'm guessing that you do not take the Samui Court's verdict seriously. OK. You also said a page or 2 back that if you had tangible evidence to convict the real killers and free the unjustly convicted twosome you wouldn't come forward with it because of the risk that your family might take. OK again.

I don't know \which disgusts me more: The actions of those who are running this show or the oft expressed notion that persons who had tangible credible evidence as to who actually committed these crimes would sit on it rather than somehow try to arrange to put it forward without undue exposure to themselves and their families -- and the notion of Koh Tao death squads lurking around every corner to hush anyone is ridiculous.

That is all hypothetical of course because those writing on here don't have any such information and the reason that no one has come forward with it is maybe that no one else has it either.

[stephenterry]

It's just a diplomatic way of AH saying the conviction was pure B/S, as there was no evidence to support the verdict. What hasn't been mentioned is that the top Region 8 official demanded to review the court's judgement prior to it being made public. I have little doubt he had the clout to demand changes if it damaged Thailand's reputation (whatever that is), and also to hold the judges 'careers' accountable for their actions if the B2 were aquitted. I also consider that review to be a bona fide contempt of court, and should never have been permitted by a higher authority..

Not that it would make an iota of difference, seems like justice can be perverted at will, if you're a big enough fish. And, IMO, having the same Region 8 crew handling the Appeal, there is little doubt that the conviction will stand, albeit the sentence could be reduced.

So I'm guessing that you do not take the Samui Court's verdict seriously. OK. You also said a page or 2 back that if you had tangible evidence to convict the real killers and free the unjustly convicted twosome you wouldn't come forward with it because of the risk that your family might take. OK again.

I don't know \which disgusts me more: The actions of those who are running this show or the oft expressed notion that persons who had tangible credible evidence as to who actually committed these crimes would sit on it rather than somehow try to arrange to put it forward without undue exposure to themselves and their families -- and the notion of Koh Tao death squads lurking around every corner to hush anyone is ridiculous.

That is all hypothetical of course because those writing on here don't have any such information and the reason that no one has come forward with it is maybe that no one else has it either.

I think you need to smell the coffee, take a slug and clear your head. The Samui court's verdict has to be taken seriously, because that's factual. AH would use the above statement re 'respect the decision' so as not to be accused of defamation, if he called it B/S. The fact that there is an Appeal shows the defence doesn't agree (to put it politely).

The highlighted section demonstrates a lack of understanding on Thai behaviour on wholly unlawful islands such as Koh Tao. The law is what the powerful families choose it to be. And I wouldn't put any of my family at risk, if I was forced to reside there. Thus the conundrum - does anyone have critical information or does that 'anyone' choose not to divulge it? As an aside (and I maybe off base here) but I assume the level of education among the locals is basic, their livelihoods depend on serving the powerful families, and they wouldn't rock the boat or indulge in any accusation or confrontation - such is Thai servile behaviour.

[JLCrab]

It is really simple: The reason you and others say that no one who has such information has come forward because of what you call my lack of understanding is that that is a way to rationalize as to why no one has come forward with exculpatory information because, if they actually HAD exculpatory information, they would act the same way you describe that you would act-- which is the same net result as if no one actually has any exculpatory information.

Exculpatory information that might break the logjam could be someone in UK who was at the AC Bar and saw some confrontation involving the late Ms. Witheridge but something as simple as that hasn't happened either. And one can rationalize behavior in the hypothetical mode all they want but that may not realistically represent the actions of someone who KNOWS they could free those unjustly convicted and prosecute those who should be but everyday watches those 2 in leg irons but does nothing when one knows one COULD do something.

[stephenterry]

It is really simple: The reason you and others say that no one who has such information has come forward because of what you call my lack of understanding is that that is a way to rationalize as to why no one has come forward with exculpatory information because, if they actually HAD exculpatory information, they would act the same way you describe that you would act-- which is the same net result as if no one actually has any exculpatory information.

Exculpatory information that might break the logjam could be someone in UK who was at the AC Bar and saw some confrontation involving the late Ms. Witheridge but something as simple as that hasn't happened either. And one can rationalize behavior in the hypothetical mode all they want but that may not realistically represent the actions of someone who KNOWS they could free those unjustly convicted and prosecute those who should be but everyday watches those 2 in leg irons but does nothing when one knows one COULD do something.

Yes, I agree, in principle, and IMO, that's the actuality. To expand on the UK possibility, there are 4 likely scenarios:-

i) they were involved in a beach/drugs party that turned sour quickly, possibly being crime witnesses, but do not want to be accused of complicity in the murders by ANY police force including the UK. Sean (possibly) falls into that category.

ii) they fled the scene before getting attacked themselves, and kept quiet (as iii) below).

iii) they 'heard' or 'saw' something of importance in the AC Bar, but were unwilling to reveal details to the RTP in case they were arrested (and I don't blame them) before getting the hell out.

iv) they never saw anything, as they weren't present.

BTW - to add credence to my previous post, re Thai mafia killers at large, Sean was chased and threatened by Mon and his police thug buddy. Hardly a lawful activity...

[JLCrab]

It is really simple: The reason you and others say that no one who has such information has come forward because of what you call my lack of understanding is that that is a way to rationalize as to why no one has come forward with exculpatory information because, if they actually HAD exculpatory information, they would act the same way you describe that you would act-- which is the same net result as if no one actually has any exculpatory information.

Exculpatory information that might break the logjam could be someone in UK who was at the AC Bar and saw some confrontation involving the late Ms. Witheridge but something as simple as that hasn't happened either. And one can rationalize behavior in the hypothetical mode all they want but that may not realistically represent the actions of someone who KNOWS they could free those unjustly convicted and prosecute those who should be but everyday watches those 2 in leg irons but does nothing when one knows one COULD do something.

Yes, I agree, in principle, and IMO, that's the actuality. To expand on the UK possibility, there are 4 likely scenarios:-

i) they were involved in a beach/drugs party that turned sour quickly, possibly being crime witnesses, but do not want to be accused of complicity in the murders by ANY police force including the UK. Sean (possibly) falls into that category.

ii) they fled the scene before getting attacked themselves, and kept quiet (as iii) below).

iii) they 'heard' or 'saw' something of importance in the AC Bar, but were unwilling to reveal details to the RTP in case they were arrested (and I don't blame them) before getting the hell out.

iv) they never saw anything, as they weren't present.

BTW - to add credence to my previous post, re Thai mafia killers at large, Sean was chased and threatened by Mon and his police thug buddy. Hardly a lawful activity...

v. There was never anything to see because there never was any confrontation involving someone who later committed these crimes out of revenge for being spurned because no one was ever spurned.

[JLCrab]

Thank you but I don't have to remember anything.

This all started after the Boxing Day hearing in 2014 when the Judge asked the 2 then accused if they had any information as to who committed these crimes and they should not be scared to say so and they said no. Persons on here then said that even if they DID know that is the right answer as their lives would be in danger. That could also have been the answer if they did it themselves but of course no honest person would ever consider that to be the case but the net result would be same.

[xylophone]

Thank you but I don't have to remember anything.

This all started after the Boxing Day hearing in 2014 when the Judge asked the 2 then accused if they had any information as to who committed these crimes and they should not be scared to say so and they said no. Persons on here then said that even if they DID know that is the right answer as their lives would be in danger. That could also have been the answer if they did it themselves but of course no honest person would ever consider that to be the case but the net result would be same.

I wasn't asking you to remember anything, I was directing my post to the other fair-minded people who focus on the key aspects of the evidence, nothing of which points to the guilt of the two Burmese.

And as I have already stated it's pointless getting into a conversation with people who will not read the overwhelming facts with regards to the case, pointing to a complete and utter farce, but wish to focus on other aspects, as, for whatever reason, it suits their viewpoint/case.

[JLCrab]

Thank you but I don't have to remember anything.

This all started after the Boxing Day hearing in 2014 when the Judge asked the 2 then accused if they had any information as to who committed these crimes and they should not be scared to say so and they said no. Persons on here then said that even if they DID know that is the right answer as their lives would be in danger. That could also have been the answer if they did it themselves but of course no honest person would ever consider that to be the case but the net result would be same.

I wasn't asking you to remember anything, I was directing my post to the other fair-minded people who focus on the key aspects of the evidence, nothing of which points to the guilt of the two Burmese.

And as I have already stated it's pointless getting into a conversation with people who will not read the overwhelming facts with regards to the case, pointing to a complete and utter farce, but wish to focus on other aspects, as, for whatever reason, it suits their viewpoint/case.

I have I think a reasonable grasp of the facts of the case and what I think should happen is simple: I think the Appeals Court should overturn the guilty verdict as not having been proved beyond reasonable doubt without any statement or prejudice as to whether those previously convicted are guilty or innocent of the crimes for which they were convicted 24 December 2015.

[sweatalot]

Thank you but I don't have to remember anything.

This all started after the Boxing Day hearing in 2014 when the Judge asked the 2 then accused if they had any information as to who committed these crimes and they should not be scared to say so and they said no. Persons on here then said that even if they DID know that is the right answer as their lives would be in danger. That could also have been the answer if they did it themselves but of course no honest person would ever consider that to be the case but the net result would be same.

I wasn't asking you to remember anything, I was directing my post to the other fair-minded people who focus on the key aspects of the evidence, nothing of which points to the guilt of the two Burmese.

And as I have already stated it's pointless getting into a conversation with people who will not read the overwhelming facts with regards to the case, pointing to a complete and utter farce, but wish to focus on other aspects, as, for whatever reason, it suits their viewpoint/case.

I have I think a reasonable grasp of the facts of the case and what I think should happen is simple: I think the Appeals Court should overturn the guilty verdict as not having been proved beyond reasonable doubt without any statement or prejudice as to whether those previously convicted are guilty or innocent of the crimes for which they were convicted 24 December 2015.

the first time I agree with you.

Of course they should be compensated for being in prison and suffering.

[JLCrab]

Thank you but I don't have to remember anything.

This all started after the Boxing Day hearing in 2014 when the Judge asked the 2 then accused if they had any information as to who committed these crimes and they should not be scared to say so and they said no. Persons on here then said that even if they DID know that is the right answer as their lives would be in danger. That could also have been the answer if they did it themselves but of course no honest person would ever consider that to be the case but the net result would be same.

I wasn't asking you to remember anything, I was directing my post to the other fair-minded people who focus on the key aspects of the evidence, nothing of which points to the guilt of the two Burmese.

And as I have already stated it's pointless getting into a conversation with people who will not read the overwhelming facts with regards to the case, pointing to a complete and utter farce, but wish to focus on other aspects, as, for whatever reason, it suits their viewpoint/case.

I have I think a reasonable grasp of the facts of the case and what I think should happen is simple: I think the Appeals Court should overturn the guilty verdict as not having been proved beyond reasonable doubt without any statement or prejudice as to whether those previously convicted are guilty or innocent of the crimes for which they were convicted 24 December 2015.

the first time I agree with you.

Of course they should be compensated for being in prison and suffering.

You don't get it.

When OJ Simpson was acquitted of 2 murders, a top LA Police officer was asked in an interview: Now that OJ has been acquitted, are you going after the real killer? And the Cop said: No -- we got our man.

[cdnvic]

I removed some posts that chose to attack the person rather than simply disagreeing with what they say.

Keep in mind that nothing said here will affect the outcome in any way, and it isn't the end of the world if someone thinks differently than you do. Some members are seriously overestimating the importance of their arguments here. It isn't worth getting your account suspended over. Someone has a different opinion than you? Big deal. Just let it go.

[stephenterry]

Snip

I have I think a reasonable grasp of the facts of the case and what I think should happen is simple: I think the Appeals Court should overturn the guilty verdict as not having been proved beyond reasonable doubt without any statement or prejudice as to whether those previously convicted are guilty or innocent of the crimes for which they were convicted 24 December 2015.

the first time I agree with you.

Of course they should be compensated for being in prison and suffering.

Blue sky thinking. Absolutely zero chance the Region 8 Appeals court would overturn their own verdict. And even less than zero chance that the B2 would be compensated. But all hope is not lost. The face-saver (all round and years later) could come from the BKK Supreme court, when the case is referred to them. Probably only a LONG sentence for stealing property or illegally entering Thailand - the main crimes overturned owing to a legal technicality, like the DNA piece of paper evidence was not signed off by the chief RTP general.

[JLCrab]

I only wrote what I think should happen. I wasn't making any predictions. I'll leave that to others.

[joebrown]

It's just a diplomatic way of AH saying the conviction was pure B/S, as there was no evidence to support the verdict. What hasn't been mentioned is that the top Region 8 official demanded to review the court's judgement prior to it being made public. I have little doubt he had the clout to demand changes if it damaged Thailand's reputation (whatever that is), and also to hold the judges 'careers' accountable for their actions if the B2 were aquitted. I also consider that review to be a bona fide contempt of court, and should never have been permitted by a higher authority..

Not that it would make an iota of difference, seems like justice can be perverted at will, if you're a big enough fish. And, IMO, having the same Region 8 crew handling the Appeal, there is little doubt that the conviction will stand, albeit the sentence could be reduced.

So I'm guessing that you do not take the Samui Court's verdict seriously. OK. You also said a page or 2 back that if you had tangible evidence to convict the real killers and free the unjustly convicted twosome you wouldn't come forward with it because of the risk that your family might take. OK again.

I don't know \which disgusts me more: The actions of those who are running this show or the oft expressed notion that persons who had tangible credible evidence as to who actually committed these crimes would sit on it rather than somehow try to arrange to put it forward without undue exposure to themselves and their families -- and the notion of Koh Tao death squads lurking around every corner to hush anyone is ridiculous.

That is all hypothetical of course because those writing on here don't have any such information and the reason that no one has come forward with it is maybe that no one else has it either.

"and the notion of Koh Tao death squads lurking around every corner is ridiculous" To a certain degree I think you are being melodramatic when you say this. It doesn't take a death squad(s) to make people fear for their lives/livelihoods. Don't forget that the General PM said shortly after the murders that action would be taken to remove 'influential persons' from the island(s). We all know that Koh Tao is controlled by a few influential families, and that one of them controls what happens at Sairee beach.

If you had sunk all your life savings into a beach bar/club/diving school anywhere near Sairee beach and you had hard evidence as to who, how, when and where the murders took place, would you willingly put the lives of yourself, family and all you owned at great risk or even mortal danger just to satisfy your altruist

[JLCrab]

It's just a diplomatic way of AH saying the conviction was pure B/S, as there was no evidence to support the verdict. What hasn't been mentioned is that the top Region 8 official demanded to review the court's judgement prior to it being made public. I have little doubt he had the clout to demand changes if it damaged Thailand's reputation (whatever that is), and also to hold the judges 'careers' accountable for their actions if the B2 were aquitted. I also consider that review to be a bona fide contempt of court, and should never have been permitted by a higher authority..

Not that it would make an iota of difference, seems like justice can be perverted at will, if you're a big enough fish. And, IMO, having the same Region 8 crew handling the Appeal, there is little doubt that the conviction will stand, albeit the sentence could be reduced.

So I'm guessing that you do not take the Samui Court's verdict seriously. OK. You also said a page or 2 back that if you had tangible evidence to convict the real killers and free the unjustly convicted twosome you wouldn't come forward with it because of the risk that your family might take. OK again.

I don't know \which disgusts me more: The actions of those who are running this show or the oft expressed notion that persons who had tangible credible evidence as to who actually committed these crimes would sit on it rather than somehow try to arrange to put it forward without undue exposure to themselves and their families -- and the notion of Koh Tao death squads lurking around every corner to hush anyone is ridiculous.

That is all hypothetical of course because those writing on here don't have any such information and the reason that no one has come forward with it is maybe that no one else has it either.

"and the notion of Koh Tao death squads lurking around every corner is ridiculous" To a certain degree I think you are being melodramatic when you say this. It doesn't take a death squad(s) to make people fear for their lives/livelihoods. Don't forget that the General PM said shortly after the murders that action would be taken to remove 'influential persons' from the island(s). We all know that Koh Tao is controlled by a few influential families, and that one of them controls what happens at Sairee beach.

If you had sunk all your life savings into a beach bar/club/diving school anywhere near Sairee beach and you had hard evidence as to who, how, when and where the murders took place, would you willingly put the lives of yourself, family and all you owned at great risk or even mortal danger just to satisfy your altruist

I guess that would depend upon just how I came upon that hard evidence because, if the influential family knew I had that hard evidence, I might wind up dead even if I didn't come forward because why would they take the risk that one day I might have some epiphany, change my mind and decide to spill my guts.

But again, it is maybe just as likely that, rather than sitting on hard evidence due to not wanting to put at risk one's investment in a vegan raw juice bar at Sairee Beach, no one actually has any such hard evidence.

[TheLobster]

It seems some people are using this forum to entertain themselves. What a sad life they must have ! (Decide for yourself who I'm referring to)

Have a look at this:

FINAL KOH TAO JUDGEMENT (English).pdf

It appears that:

Everything the police said was regarded as concrete evidence

Anything the defendants said was regarded as lies

Relevant documents presented by the defense were ignored

It seems that a lot of evidence including CCTV, clothing, hairs etc. were not presented by the prosecution but the report does state that the last time the deceased were seen was in a certain bar.

'According to the CCTV footage, the Second Deceased was found walking into the AC Bar with her friends at 00.15 hrs, whereas the Second Deceased walked into the AC Bar at 02.08.37 hrs. Thereafter, both Deceased were never found walking out of the Bar until their bodies were found.'

[IslandLover]

TheLobster, on 04 Jun 2016 - 18:08, said:

It seems some people are using this forum to entertain themselves. What a sad life they must have ! (Decide for yourself who I'm referring to)

Have a look at this:

FINAL KOH TAO JUDGEMENT (English).pdf

It appears that:

Everything the police said was regarded as concrete evidence

Anything the defendants said was regarded as lies

Relevant documents presented by the defense were ignored

It seems that a lot of evidence including CCTV, clothing, hairs etc. were not presented by the prosecution but the report does state that the last time the deceased were seen was in a certain bar.

'According to the CCTV footage, the Second Deceased was found walking into the AC Bar with her friends at 00.15 hrs, whereas the Second Deceased walked into the AC Bar at 02.08.37 hrs. Thereafter, both Deceased were never found walking out of the Bar until their bodies were found.'

I like the way there is a serious mistake in that quote from the Final Koh Tao Judgement. Is it a mistranslation into English, or did it state that in the original Thai? They can't both be the "Second Deceased", can they? The First Deceased being Hannah Witheridge, and the Second Deceased being David Miller. Very unprofessional, just like the entire RTP investigation and trial. I also noticed that the word "shop" was used for "bar", thus Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo became "shop workers" when in fact they worked in bars.