Horrible Discovery in Tiger Temple: Dozens of Dead Tiger Kittens

[cumgranosalum]

As usual in the LOS, the reporting raises raises more questions than it answers. We would optimistically expect a full detailed report of what they found instead of misleading and contradictory information. In the case of the former, we will likely be disappointed and expected to be satisfied with the latter.

(1) Bulls head. Protected Gaur or domestic tiger food? Not a difficult question.

(2) Dead pig. Wild pig or domestic tiger food? Ditto!

(3) 40 dead tiger cubs. The article claims them to be both frozen and freshly killed. Which is correct, fresh or frozen? The difference between the two could explain different reasons or intentions. Were they all frozen or all freshly killed or some of each. (Frozen kittens might indicate still born or young dead kept as red herrings to ward off claims of selling tiger parts.

(4) Animal parts. Parts of what animals. Kept for DNA analysis to determine species, did the journo inquire?

(5) Forty tigers have been removed from the Tiger Temple since Monday — seven on Monday and 33 Tuesday. This makes total 50 tigers out of 147 (Huh? Where did the other 10 spring from?)

(6) RF Chip tags. No mention of RF tags at all. Last year there was a big stink over 3 chipped tigers that were not able to be found and the temple stonewalled the authorities on their whereabouts. No info on that. I rather think those three were "harvested" by accident and will never be found.

(7) Apparently about 1/3 of the tigers had been chipped as part of a previous attempt at census.

The market for tiger parts throughout Asia and including right here in LOS is huge. The demand will be for ton lots of adult tiger parts almost all the animal has value but particularly bones, teeth, claws and certain glands & reproductive parts. Skins could be shipped frozen and sold for tanning in protected markets.

It would be nice to see some old-fashioned non culturally sensitive western style investigative journo's on the job. The same with the people doing the actual investigation and DNA check on the "animal parts."

I think the number quoted over a year ago was 147. What if it was really 20 or 50 more and was "commercially managed down" to this same figure. Seizure of all computers, any bank accounts of anyone associated in the the temple management etc etc. But the article does not mention anything like that. Why would we expect it to? Servile journos write down what they are given and don't ask difficult questions of important/powerful/rich people.

wHereas I agree that the standards of journalism in Thailand are appallingly low - you too need to get your facts straight if you are going to criticise with any great effect.

The original number of tigers "officially at thew temple was 147 - 10 were removed aid much kerfuffle earlier this year - the program was suspended pending legal action.

the 3 chips and missing tigers ae still part of ongoing processes. You might want to read the CEE4life report.

at present the contents of the freezer have been out in the public gaze for only a few hours......i'm sure given the amount of photographic evidence the animals will soon be Id'd properly......cattle - the species gaur or banteng are not immediately identifiable especially if not fully grown - I'm sure they will be checking that soon.

as for investigative journalism, most of this action is the result of the CEE4Life report which took 9 years of investigative journalism - and was started with the CarefortheWild report way of which Sybil was originally part between 2005 and 2008.

yes of course the current situation is going to raise more questions than answers - the international press at present ae relying it sees on local reporters to get their information - so I'm sure a lot is lost in translation.

hopefully as the operation to remove the tigers continues, more acts will emerge and such things as DNA tests - which Thailand is not properly equipped to do, will come out.

This is part of a series of legal moves and actions that date back to 2002 or thereabouts, and the Teflon Temple is a master of disinformation - let's face it they've appear to have deceived the whole world to date - so lets not expect a series of black and white answers straight away - this is a highly complex situation that stretches to the VERY highest rungs of Thai society and it is going to take ages years) to sort out..

I think one thing that many posters have missed out on so far is the abject fear the authorities have of tackling anything to do with the Buddhist authorities - the possibilities of a backfire are positively terrifying to most officials.

[huangnon]

Buddhism's really taking it on the chin these days and does anyone care ?

Apparently not especially the leaders, where's the ruling council in all that's going on or is not having a Supreme Patriarch a convenient excuse ?

The Thai version of it anyway. Deservedly, btw.

[Artisi]

Disgusting!

I don't even want to think about how many hundreds - if not thousands - of cubs were brutally killed over the years to be sold off as ingredients for dubious quack medicines, because it makes me sick to my stomach.

Who said any were "brutally killed" to be sold off as ingredients for dubious quack medicines? The BBC is quoting a farang helper as saying that dead cubs bodies were frozen and kept for years in some cases as evidence that they were not trafficking the cubs.

Seems an unlikely tale !

Why would anyone one wish to freeze and keep dead bodies for years ?

Forensic examination of the bodies will reveal the truth!

It may be that processing and dispersal of the bodies is difficult to organise....without detection?

In Thailand, bodies are being disposed of everyday without much drama, occasionally someone will trip up and the corpse comes to light--otherwise no problem

[NongKhaiKid]

Buddhism's really taking it on the chin these days and does anyone care ?

Apparently not especially the leaders, where's the ruling council in all that's going on or is not having a Supreme Patriarch a convenient excuse ?

The Thai version of it anyway. Deservedly, btw.

Yes, the Thai version.

In years gone past an old friend of mine had a lovely Korean girlfriend who was a Buddhist and her views on Buddhism here blistered the paintwork.

[sanukjim]

One small dead cub tiger can sell for up to $5,000 USD for a female and $10,000 USD for a male in China.....US Dollars.These were killed as they were born for export to China.How many more do you think they killed ?

[cumgranosalum]

Who said any were "brutally killed" to be sold off as ingredients for dubious quack medicines? The BBC is quoting a farang helper as saying that dead cubs bodies were frozen and kept for years in some cases as evidence that they were not trafficking the cubs.

Seems an unlikely tale !

Why would anyone one wish to freeze and keep dead bodies for years ?

Forensic examination of the bodies will reveal the truth!

It may be that processing and dispersal of the bodies is difficult to organise....without detection?

In Thailand, bodies are being disposed of everyday without much drama, occasionally someone will trip up and the corpse comes to light--otherwise no problem

I wrote "dispersal" not "disposal"

[waighty]

I went there about 8 years and I also could not understand why there were foreigners working there. Actually the farang ( Yanks Or Canadians I think) were the ones that told us that the tigers were not drugged but merely satisfied after a big feed and all they wanted to do was sleep. Crap. I swore I would never go back there. To see such a majestic animal chained and drugged made one not feel so joyous. These monks could learn something from a trip to Dreamworld in Queensland Australia and see how those tigers are treated. The way a magnificent creature is supposed to be treated.

[12DrinkMore]

The US is not innocent.

With an estimated 5,000 tigers, the U.S. captive tiger population exceeds the approximately 3,200 tigers in the wild

http://www.worldwildlife.org/stories/more-tigers-in-american-backyards-than-in-the-wild

Continued lax management of the captive tiger population means that thousands of these big cats are still found in backyards, urban apartments, sideshows, truck stops and private breeding facilities.

In many jurisdictions, people can legally keep a tiger on their property without reporting it to local officials or neighbors. In some states, it is easier to buy a tiger than to adopt a dog from a local animal shelter.

Guess we humans are just cruel.

Edited June 2, 2016 by 12DrinkMore

[CGW]

"In China, TCM all but died out by the mid 20th century.....it was revived largely by the enthusiasm of the west in the 60s for examining alternative cultures and life-styles. As the Chines economy has bourgeoned this century the "art" - it certainly isn't science - has become immensely popular with the Chinese middle classes who traditionally retain a strong belief in superstition and non-scientific interpretations of the world around them.

There is no such thing a Supplementary, Complimentary or Alternative Medicine (SCAMS) - medicine is only medicine when it has been proved to work. TCM along with virtually all alternative form of therapy has never been shown to work."

What total nonsense! did you make this up or is it from a "big Pharmaceutical" press handout that is trying to convince people that taking their "medicines" (& giving them Vast profits!) are the only cures. Don't believe all you read, off course they want to sell their products!

Having lived and worked in China the first "statement" is absolute rubbish also!

[meatboy]

welcome to the temple in hell.

run by monsters in sheeps clothing.

[dageurreotype]

A very distressing read:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/01/160121-tiger-temple-thailand-trafficking-laos0/

Also this:

http://cee4life.org/tiger-temple-report/

Everyone should force themselves to read this horrific report before spouting off as to whether or not tigers would be properly cared for in any new facility under the auspices of so called Buddhist monks here. They won't! Diabolical!

[cumgranosalum]

I went there about 8 years and I also could not understand why there were foreigners working there. Actually the farang ( Yanks Or Canadians I think) were the ones that told us that the tigers were not drugged but merely satisfied after a big feed and all they wanted to do was sleep. Crap. I swore I would never go back there. To see such a majestic animal chained and drugged made one not feel so joyous. These monks could learn something from a trip to Dreamworld in Queensland Australia and see how those tigers are treated. The way a magnificent creature is supposed to be treated.

"Yanks or Canadians"?? - isn't that a bit like saying "Scottish or English"?

as for Dreamworld "The way a magnificent creature is supposed to be treated." Well although I'm sure they are much better treated, I'd hardly say that "supposed to be treated" is the right phrasing...

[cumgranosalum]

"In China, TCM all but died out by the mid 20th century.....it was revived largely by the enthusiasm of the west in the 60s for examining alternative cultures and life-styles. As the Chines economy has bourgeoned this century the "art" - it certainly isn't science - has become immensely popular with the Chinese middle classes who traditionally retain a strong belief in superstition and non-scientific interpretations of the world around them.

There is no such thing a Supplementary, Complimentary or Alternative Medicine (SCAMS) - medicine is only medicine when it has been proved to work. TCM along with virtually all alternative form of therapy has never been shown to work."

What total nonsense! did you make this up or is it from a "big Pharmaceutical" press handout that is trying to convince people that taking their "medicines" (& giving them Vast profits!) are the only cures. Don't believe all you read, off course they want to sell their products!

Having lived and worked in China the first "statement" is absolute rubbish also!

I'm sorry to say it is is all 100% true - if you want to take issue with it please pick out a point and make a fool of yourself.

the first thing you might like to review is your appreciation of the difference between the business practices of Big Pharma and the application of scientific thought - sceptically and critical thinking.

you wish to debate TCM history then come up with a counter argument. So far you have failed on every item....it's a pity you wasted all that time you spent in China.

[huangnon]

One small dead cub tiger can sell for up to $5,000 USD for a female and $10,000 USD for a male in China.....US Dollars.These were killed as they were born for export to China.How many more do you think they killed ?

By definition, the "Sriracha Tiger Zoo" in Chonburi should be investigated as well. Same modus operandi. Another animal Auschwitz in Thailand evading CITES and flogging off these big cats to the massive "traditional medicine" market in China and SE Asia.

[wabothai]

Lots of negative comments on facebook about thailand. reading it and commenting the thread was shut down halfway through.

Wonder who did this. Take a guess.

[nemrut]

A lot of condemnation of the monks who ran this place and deservedly so.

However, it would be unfair to only blame one side when it was the customers -- primarily farang who allowed this place to operate for so long.

And what about all the farang volunteer/staff?

Coming from a developed countries, how could any farang in their right mind believe it was ok to keep tigers in captivity to be petted and snuggled like kittens?

Same goes for elephant safaris and gorillas in captivity. All farang know it's wrong but they deny it out of their own self-centeredness and the neverending desire for 'unique' experiences where they can take selfies to show everyone how special they are.

Thais get a pass because most don't know any better and struggle to survive. But farang have no excuses for being involved with such deplorable places.

[webfact]

Lion, More Wildlife Discovered Inside ‘Tiger Temple’
By Chayanit Itthipongmaetee
Staff Reporter


A tiger on Tuesday being transfer from the Tiger Temple in Kanchanaburi’s Sai Yok district to a wildlife breeding research station in Ratchaburi province.

KANCHANABURI — A lion and a threatened wild species of cattle were among additional wildlife also discovered at the so-called Tiger Temple, where 40 tiger cub bodies were found yesterday, as wildlife officials filed criminal charges against the temple.

Wildlife officials have successfully removed 76 tigers from the Tiger Temple since Monday, while those running the temple seem to be keeping a safe distance.

Full story: http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1464848964


-- Khaosod English 2016-06-02

[boomerangutang]

It's always farang who spearhead revelations in these types of scenarios within Thailand. Thais are hamstrung for several reasons: For starters, they don't even see such things are wrong until farang begin pointing them out. Thais are too afraid of the stratification of Thai society, too afraid of rocking the boat, particularly with the Sangha (Buddhist establishment) and rich people. Thai officialdom can follow-up somewhat, though they do so in fits and starts, and at every step of the process they're intensely aware of the stratification of who's privileged. It's as bad now as it's always been in Thailand.

There are so many ugly aspects of this tigers/temple imbroglio, not least is Chinese' insatiable appetite for tiger products (What % of Chinese men have trouble getting hard-ons, 60%? 85%?). Now that they have lots more money, they can more readily decimate populations of once-wild beasts. To me it's more despicable than Bernie Madoff, and more alarming than ISIS chopping off heads.

If the Chinese were ever able to conduct double-blind scientific tests, they would find that tiger bone is no more effective for getting a hard-on than dog bone. They can't because they're too subjective. But even if Chinese scientists could enact a scientific tests to prove that, the general Chinese public wouldn't pay it any heed, because they're so steeped in superstition. I would be like trying to convince American Christians that a virgin birth is not possible.

[NanLaew]

... A lion and a threatened wild species of cattle were among additional wildlife also discovered at the so-called Tiger Temple, where 40 tiger cub bodies were found yesterday, as wildlife officials filed criminal charges against the temple.

Or as Dixon of Dock Green would say, "Right temple, you're knicked!"

How the frik does one prosecute a free standing pile of masonry, red roof tiles and fancy Naga head cornices? More culturally bereft, morally bankrupt, weak-willed, deferential pussy footing because they can't name any actual persons since they may be a "species" more protected than these poor bloody tigers ever were.

Sickening.

[NanLaew]

It's always farang who spearhead revelations in these types of scenarios within Thailand. Thais are hamstrung for several reasons: For starters, they don't even see such things are wrong until farang begin pointing them out. Thais are too afraid of the stratification of Thai society, too afraid of rocking the boat, particularly with the Sangha (Buddhist establishment) and rich people. Thai officialdom can follow-up somewhat, though they do so in fits and starts, and at every step of the process they're intensely aware of the stratification of who's privileged. It's as bad now as it's always been in Thailand.

There are so many ugly aspects of this tigers/temple imbroglio, not least is Chinese' insatiable appetite for tiger products (What % of Chinese men have trouble getting hard-ons, 60%? 85%?). Now that they have lots more money, they can more readily decimate populations of once-wild beasts. To me it's more despicable than Bernie Madoff, and more alarming than ISIS chopping off heads.

If the Chinese were ever able to conduct double-blind scientific tests, they would find that tiger bone is no more effective for getting a hard-on than dog bone. They can't because they're too subjective. But even if Chinese scientists could enact a scientific tests to prove that, the general Chinese public wouldn't pay it any heed, because they're so steeped in superstition. I would be like trying to convince American Christians that a virgin birth is not possible.

Well at least the Chinese don't do amulets.

[cumgranosalum]

A lot of condemnation of the monks who ran this place and deservedly so.

However, it would be unfair to only blame one side when it was the customers -- primarily farang who allowed this place to operate for so long.

And what about all the farang volunteer/staff?

Coming from a developed countries, how could any farang in their right mind believe it was ok to keep tigers in captivity to be petted and snuggled like kittens?

Same goes for elephant safaris and gorillas in captivity. All farang know it's wrong but they deny it out of their own self-centeredness and the neverending desire for 'unique' experiences where they can take selfies to show everyone how special they are.

Thais get a pass because most don't know any better and struggle to survive. But farang have no excuses for being involved with such deplorable places.

Yes- I agree, customers these days - especially Westerners should know better.

I think the other thing is that when it is pointed out how naive, gullible and stupid they've been, they will than move heaven and hell to deny it. So perhaps I shouldn't have done so.....but when I see the kind of rank stupidity that these people are possessed by, it makes my blood boil.

I have a lot of files cut from web sites with bits of threads about the temple dating back to about 2005 (they should ge back further but I can't find them) and reading the asinine comments of some members on this and other threads is quite - dare I say it entertaining.......... so I'm thinking of picking out a few to come back and bite those who posted them originally.

[cumgranosalum]

Lots of negative comments on facebook about thailand. reading it and commenting the thread was shut down halfway through.

Wonder who did this. Take a guess.

Tripadvisor have been systematically removing negative comments about thw Temple and other wildlife issues for years. Of course they make money from tour operators..

I would also love to hear from Tong's tours who have been making money from the temple for a decade or so and never publicly taken a stance on the temple - perhps they would care to comment now...... anyone want to contact Tong's tours?

[cumgranosalum]

It's always farang who spearhead revelations in these types of scenarios within Thailand. Thais are hamstrung for several reasons: For starters, they don't even see such things are wrong until farang begin pointing them out. Thais are too afraid of the stratification of Thai society, too afraid of rocking the boat, particularly with the Sangha (Buddhist establishment) and rich people. Thai officialdom can follow-up somewhat, though they do so in fits and starts, and at every step of the process they're intensely aware of the stratification of who's privileged. It's as bad now as it's always been in Thailand.

There are so many ugly aspects of this tigers/temple imbroglio, not least is Chinese' insatiable appetite for tiger products (What % of Chinese men have trouble getting hard-ons, 60%? 85%?). Now that they have lots more money, they can more readily decimate populations of once-wild beasts. To me it's more despicable than Bernie Madoff, and more alarming than ISIS chopping off heads.

If the Chinese were ever able to conduct double-blind scientific tests, they would find that tiger bone is no more effective for getting a hard-on than dog bone. They can't because they're too subjective. But even if Chinese scientists could enact a scientific tests to prove that, the general Chinese public wouldn't pay it any heed, because they're so steeped in superstition. I would be like trying to convince American Christians that a virgin birth is not possible.

Well at least the Chinese don't do amulets.

Joking ,right?

"virgin birth is not possible. " - ah! I think you might want to check on that one - caled parthenogenesis, very interesting research at present....at leaszt it's more scientifically possible than getting a hard-on by eating another animal's penis....

Edited June 2, 2016 by cumgranosalum

[huangnon]

It's always farang who spearhead revelations in these types of scenarios within Thailand. Thais are hamstrung for several reasons: For starters, they don't even see such things are wrong until farang begin pointing them out. Thais are too afraid of the stratification of Thai society, too afraid of rocking the boat, particularly with the Sangha (Buddhist establishment) and rich people. Thai officialdom can follow-up somewhat, though they do so in fits and starts, and at every step of the process they're intensely aware of the stratification of who's privileged. It's as bad now as it's always been in Thailand.

There are so many ugly aspects of this tigers/temple imbroglio, not least is Chinese' insatiable appetite for tiger products (What % of Chinese men have trouble getting hard-ons, 60%? 85%?). Now that they have lots more money, they can more readily decimate populations of once-wild beasts. To me it's more despicable than Bernie Madoff, and more alarming than ISIS chopping off heads.

If the Chinese were ever able to conduct double-blind scientific tests, they would find that tiger bone is no more effective for getting a hard-on than dog bone. They can't because they're too subjective. But even if Chinese scientists could enact a scientific tests to prove that, the general Chinese public wouldn't pay it any heed, because they're so steeped in superstition. I would be like trying to convince American Christians that a virgin birth is not possible.

Yes, we have economically-empowered a huge race of people that believe in such backwards mumbo-jumbo, and have no empathy for anyone or anything outside their immediate family and bubble of consciousness. The big cats are just symptomatic. The biggest damage is being done to the marine eco-system with the 'finning' of sharks for the stupid tasteless soup so popular in this region.

[NongKhaiKid]

BBC World's news crawler headlines that the temple is to face charges ! Oh really, with the present ongoing events involving a temple we could easily have another incidence of some Buddhists thumbing their noses at officialdom who will be reluctant to act and the PM will be in a decision making reverse gear.

[cumgranosalum]

So where's the Abbot amongst all this? I'd like to see some video.....he has a bit of a temper - remember him kicking the bird cages about? - with the birds still in them...

[Mickmouse1]

These guys are not genuine monks.Merely criminals disguising in that orang cloth to avoid suspicions and to gain respect.However,smuggling or trading such rare animals for profit is the work of MAFIA.Also ,money transfers tantamount to money laundering. GREED.. don't they believe that when they leave this world they won't take it with them? Oh...yes I forgot, they believe in the afterlife??????

[dunroaming]

This also made the news in the UK, another negative report about Thailand that will have little effect on the mainstream tourists.

[Guest]

The mess gets worse every day

"Tiger skins, amulets containing tiger parts found in vehicle from #TigerTemple"

[losworld]

Absolutely dispicable behavior. Those pretending to love and protect the animals killing and dismembering them for profit.