Mother in law uk visit visa refused. Thoughts please

[7by7]

Forget about suggestions to get your MP to help. MPs may be able to help if the ECO has made an error or the decision is against the rules; but they cannot make UKVI reverse a refusal which is within the rules and everything you have said suggests that this refusal is within the rules and therefore correct.

From your OP

It seems I made a mistake by (being honest) and explaining in application that part of MIL income comes from helping in Thailand with the kids (all under 5) and that every 3 months she comes to visit and stays for a month so we pay her to supplement her income as she has to take time off from her work (farm work).
They have taken this to mean that her reason to visit the uk is to work as a nanny and have refused the visa.

Is it so difficult to get the message across that it would be difficult for my wife to mange with 3 kids under 5 for the whole school holiday and having grandmother come along would not be classed as working........

The main points for refusal were
1) that the stay was 2 months
2) they suspect grandma would be working.

So your mother in law regularly acts as a nanny/child minder for you and your wife, and you pay her for this service.

This is working.

It is perfectly reasonable, therefore, for the ECO to assume that she will continue in this activity whilst in the UK with you; even that this is her sole, or at least main, reason for coming to the UK with you.

Especially as you stated your wife could not cope with caring for the children without her mother's help!

You presumably read the Standard Visitor Visa guidance before completing the application and so know that it clearly states

What you can and can’t do
You can't:
do paid or unpaid work

So it is plain to see that working for you in the UK as a nanny/child minder, even in an unpaid capacity for family, is against the visitor rules.

Submitting another visit application in which you state what was said previously was wrong and even though she works for you in Thailand she wont be doing so whilst in the UK may work; but I can't see any argument you can present to convince the ECO of this.

Remember, everything said in her previous application is on record and will be referred to by the ECO when assessing any subsequent applications.

You, or rather she, may have more luck applying for a Domestic Worker in a Private Household visa; but that costs £405!

I know I am being very pessimistic in this post, but you need to be aware of the worst case possibility.

I wish you luck; please let us know how she gets on with her second application.

[changnaam]

7 by 7 thanks for the comments. Was 99% spot aside from my wife cannot manage 3 kids without her mothers help.

Not even going to bite, as she manages the kids all the time in Thailand.

The point was that MIL assists sometimes, and would be helpful for 2 months when I am back in Thailand working. My original application was not correct I agree but the point is not that MIL is a hired help, she does what any grandma would do.

Anyway we are submitting the second app next week, I will post the results.

[bobrussell]

Unfortunately you did suggest in the application that mother in law was paid to look after the children. This is a pretty common thing in the UK and Thailand.

Sadly the ECO has chosen to interpret this as working, paid or unpaid and this is expressly forbidden on a visit visa.

7by7 s idea of a visa for a domestic worker might actually be a valid option as long as MIL is under 65 and you will pay at least the minimum wage while she is in the UK.

Hopefully this time the ECO will show some consideration for your circumstances. With the refused application you did not really give him or her much scope for approval! Work is work.

[johnatong]

7 by 7 thanks for the comments. Was 99% spot aside from my wife cannot manage 3 kids without her mothers help.

Not even going to bite, as she manages the kids all the time in Thailand.

The point was that MIL assists sometimes, and would be helpful for 2 months when I am back in Thailand working. My original application was not correct I agree but the point is not that MIL is a hired help, she does what any grandma would do.

Anyway we are submitting the second app next week, I will post the results.

Your words " Is it so difficult to get the message across that it would be difficult for my wife to mange with 3 kids under 5 for the whole school holiday"

Best of luck with the application the outcome will be of interest to many.

[changnaam]

Point you are missing John is day to day with 3 kids is fine. 2 months (60 days) 24 hours a day with 3 young children would be very hard for anyone, so grandma comes for support. I am sure any parent would agree.

Anyway let's see the result of the second try, thanks for the best wishes.

[johnatong]

Point you are missing John is day to day with 3 kids is fine. 2 months (60 days) 24 hours a day with 3 young children would be very hard for anyone, so grandma comes for support. I am sure any parent would agree.

Anyway let's see the result of the second try, thanks for the best wishes.

FYI my Father died when I was a young child.

My Mother cared for 3 young children 24/7/365 until we reached an age of independence and then she continued to care.

[changnaam]

Point you are missing John is day to day with 3 kids is fine. 2 months (60 days) 24 hours a day with 3 young children would be very hard for anyone, so grandma comes for support. I am sure any parent would agree.

Anyway let's see the result of the second try, thanks for the best wishes.

FYI my Father died when I was a young child.

My Mother cared for 3 young children 24/7/365 until we reached an age of independence and then she continued to care.

Not taking away from your mum , and sorry your father passed away when you were young. fair play to her her but not really same situation.

Not taking away from your mum but did you not go to school, or have friends and family around? 2 months alone is a tough call and we are only talking about having grandma around to support the kids.

Seriously the way a few of you guys talk we are asking for some kind of diplomatic favor, gran comes to uk for 2 months to help / spend time with grand kids. Pretty small issue when you look at rest of UK immigration mess at the moment.

[johnatong]

Point you are missing John is day to day with 3 kids is fine. 2 months (60 days) 24 hours a day with 3 young children would be very hard for anyone, so grandma comes for support. I am sure any parent would agree.

Anyway let's see the result of the second try, thanks for the best wishes.

FYI my Father died when I was a young child.

My Mother cared for 3 young children 24/7/365 until we reached an age of independence and then she continued to care.

Not taking away from your mum , and sorry your father passed away when you were young. fair play to her her but not really same situation.

Not taking away from your mum but did you not go to school, or have friends and family around? 2 months alone is a tough call and we are only talking about having grandma around to support the kids.

Seriously the way a few of you guys talk we are asking for some kind of diplomatic favor, gran comes to uk for 2 months to help / spend time with grand kids. Pretty small issue when you look at rest of UK immigration mess at the moment.

Yep. We went to school and we had long summer holidays during which Mother ensured our care without the assistance of Granny or anyone else.

We had no family close to where we lived.

[wooloomooloo]

Good luck, OP. But your posts come across as though you are somewhat entitled. Rules are stringent rules now.

Personally, I don't like your attitude.

[changnaam]

Point you are missing John is day to day with 3 kids is fine. 2 months (60 days) 24 hours a day with 3 young children would be very hard for anyone, so grandma comes for support. I am sure any parent would agree.

Anyway let's see the result of the second try, thanks for the best wishes.

FYI my Father died when I was a young child.

My Mother cared for 3 young children 24/7/365 until we reached an age of independence and then she continued to care.

Not taking away from your mum , and sorry your father passed away when you were young. fair play to her her but not really same situation.

Not taking away from your mum but did you not go to school, or have friends and family around? 2 months alone is a tough call and we are only talking about having grandma around to support the kids.

Seriously the way a few of you guys talk we are asking for some kind of diplomatic favor, gran comes to uk for 2 months to help / spend time with grand kids. Pretty small issue when you look at rest of UK immigration mess at the moment.

Yep. We went to school and we had long summer holidays during which Mother ensured our care without the assistance of Granny or anyone else.

We had no family close to where we lived.

Jeez mate give it up.

Was your mum in her home for summer hols?

Surrounded by people she knew well?

Was she in her home country?

In her home town?

Friends around?

You had your school friends around as well?

We are talking apples and oranges.

Mum is in a foreign country

Does not have local network / friends

Kids don't have school friends that they can play with

I am sorry for your situation but my kids traveling to the other side of the world for their summer holiday and wanting to bring grandma to help mum along a bit is slightly different to you being at home with your year round network.

Edited June 2, 2016 by changnaam

[wooloomooloo]

Now I definitely hope you fall straight on your face. Good night.

[changnaam]

Now I definitely hope you fall straight on your face. Good night.

Thanks for your positive input, wish you all the best too x.

[Slip]

Thread of the week. Belligerent OP who not only refuses to recognse the rules for his own home country, but also belittles and mocks those in the know who try to help him.

[bobrussell]

The thread has gone way off target and seems to be getting personal!

My kids were brought up with the considerable hindrance of their grandmother and I would have paid to have her leave us alone!

The issue is related to comments made in a visa application that were honest but unwise. It gave an ECO an excuse to reject the application that probably would not have happened otherwise. Telling falsehoods on applications risks major repercussions but sometimes it is better to say less!

Good luck with the second application!

[POMCHOB]

Contact your MP. They'll swing it.

Yes an MP swung it for me.....after a Settlement Visa refusal for my wife . Very well known MP and her secretary explained i should

write a letter to Damien Green and in the letter explain that I Love my wife and want us to be together!!Priceless

Did it all myself with the help of Thaivisa Forum members and a coupe of very knowledgable others too.

POMCHOB

[changnaam]

The thread has gone way off target and seems to be getting personal!

My kids were brought up with the considerable hindrance of their grandmother and I would have paid to have her leave us alone!

The issue is related to comments made in a visa application that were honest but unwise. It gave an ECO an excuse to reject the application that probably would not have happened otherwise. Telling falsehoods on applications risks major repercussions but sometimes it is better to say less!

Good luck with the second application!

Thanks Bobrussell you are right, a little too much info given in the original application but live and learn from that.

Shame about the friends I have gained here, look forward to support their future woes

[changnaam]

Thread of the week. Belligerent OP who not only refuses to recognse the rules for his own home country, but also belittles and mocks those in the know who try to help him.

Rubbish, those who have contributed to the thread were thanked, the mocking was saved for those who clearly did not understand the situation.

Importing a granny

Visa every 3 months

Not prepared to pay for child care

[thai3]

could not even get my mrs a vv once, they said I visited Thailand often so why did she need to go to the UK? Contacted MP, got letter no problem with 2nd application

[theoldgit]

I've removed a number of off topic posts as well as a couple of baiting posts.

If the OP wants to consider a visa as a domestic servant then he must supply genuine documentary evidence that the person has been in their employ for at least twelve months.

I honestly think the OP is going to face an uphill battle to get a visa approved in the circumstances he describes.

Of course write to an MP who will in turn write the MP's Correspondence Unit, in all likelihood that's as far as the letter will get. For an MP's letter to carry any weight they must satisfy the UKVI that the Immigration Rules have been improperly applied, and they don't seem to have been so in this case, just because an MP might feel that your case seems unfair will, I'm afraid, count for nothing.

[7by7]

<snip>

Importing a granny

Visa every 3 months

Not prepared to pay for child care

"Importing a granny."

She's a person, not some inanimate object to be imported.

"Imported" also suggests some sort of permanent residence in the UK. Which is impossible unless she qualifies as an adult dependent. Which basically means she is totally dependent on you and/or your wife for her day to day financial and physical care and that care is not available to her in Thailand, e.g. from her other children if any.

"Visa every 3 months."

Although not a specific rule, the convention is that visitors should not spend more than 6 months out of any 12 in the UK; unless there are exceptional circumstances why they need to do so. Of course, there is a rule that most categories of visitor cannot spend more then 6 months in the UK per visit.

"Not prepared to pay for childcare."

Irrelevant. As pointed out to you previously, and as you would have known had you read the UKVI guidance, standard visit visa holders are not allowed to do work of any kind whilst in the UK; paid or unpaid, working for family or someone else.

Unless, of course, they have come to the UK for a purpose directly related to their business and declared such in their application; but even then they can only do work related to that business and their purpose in coming to the UK. For example a musician or actor coming to the UK to perform.

[bobrussell]

This visa was refused on a technicality. Perhaps (almost certainly?) correctly under the rules. I don't know if a different ECO will look on the revised application more sympathetically but as I see it, with minor changes to wording, it may have been granted the first time.

Replace "pay to supplement lost wages" with "cover all her costs and expenses" while in the UK and there should have been little issue. The restriction on working is to protect local jobs and this lady is not going to threaten any jobs in the UK.

The ECO strikes me as being well within his or her rights to refuse the visa based on the original application but it seems harsh to refuse a further application. MIL is a genuine visitor, likely to go back, not depriving anyone of work and costing the UK nothing!

It will be interesting to see if the ECO reconsiders the application favourably or not!

[wooloomooloo]

The ECO strikes me as being well within his or her rights to refuse the visa based on the original application but it seems harsh to refuse a further application. MIL is a genuine visitor, likely to go back, not depriving anyone of work and costing the UK nothing!

And if the second application is refused, Bob? What then?

Your personal empathies of 'not depriving anyone of work and costing the UK nothing!' doesn't hold any weight with an ECO, as you well know.

Wouldn't it be safer for the MIL to make her excuses in a second application and apply for the 'Domestic Worker in a Private Household' visa, as recommended by 7by7? Probably the best advice on this thread, by the way.

As I previously mentioned, I'm quite sure the die is well and truly cast if a second visit visa is revisited. If subsequently refused then it's most certainly game over.

[7by7]

Sorry, Bob; the visa was most definitely not refused on a technicality!

The OP has stated that her application said one of the reasons, if not the main reason, for her visit was to work as a child minder/nanny for her daughter.

The rules, and the guidance for applicants, clearly state that any work, even though it's unpaid and for a member of the applicant's family, is strictly forbidden.

Except for business visitors as previously outlined.

The refusal was correct.

As I've said before, I now believe that another visit application by her will be viewed with deep suspicion by the ECO.

I hope I'm wrong and they accept the OP's explanation and assurances that she wont be working in any capacity whilst in the UK; but I'm not betting on it.

As for the domestic worker visa, as mentioned by theoldgit, the requirements for that are fairly strict (see previous link) and she may very well not meet them!

Edited June 3, 2016 by 7by7

[bobrussell]

I am not saying the refusal was incorrect! I would not be too surprised if the follow up was rejected as well. The technicality was correct for refusal but many other otherwise identical mothers in law will have received visas to accompany family. Many will receive money to help with childcare on an informal basis.

The principle reason for visas is to protect the UK from travellers misbehaviour. Taking jobs, overstaying, insufficient funds, criminal activities etc. This MIL is very unlikely to do any of these things IMO.

It will be at the discretion of the ECO and sadly the original application did strongly suggest 'work' in the broadest sense. Granting a visa is not going to harm anyone!

Shows how important it is to provide only the required information and not to volunteer more than is really needed!

Edited June 3, 2016 by bobrussell

[DipStick]

I am not saying the refusal was incorrect! I would not be too surprised if the follow up was rejected as well. The technicality was correct for refusal but many other otherwise identical mothers in law will have received visas to accompany family. Many will receive money to help with childcare on an informal basis.

The principle reason for visas is to protect the UK from travellers misbehaviour. Taking jobs, overstaying, insufficient funds, criminal activities etc. This MIL is very unlikely to do any of these things IMO.

It will be at the discretion of the ECO and sadly the original application did strongly suggest 'work' in the broadest sense. Granting a visa is not going to harm anyone!

Shows how important it is to provide only the required information and not to volunteer more than is really needed!

Again, as I wrote in my response do not over elaborate to do so is very niaive, however just a thought and I am pushing the limit here. How would the ECO have reacted if it was stated that any payments made to the MIL would be paid directly to her Thai bank account ? Just a thought

[wooloomooloo]

How would the ECO have reacted if it was stated that any payments made to the MIL would be paid directly to her Thai bank account ?

That would have gone down like a lead balloon.

[7by7]

Indeed, as stated before any work, paid or unpaid, is expressly forbidden in the rules. Where the money is paid is irrelevant.

<snip>
many other otherwise identical mothers in law will have received visas to accompany family. Many will receive money to help with childcare on an informal basis.

You are certainly correct that visiting grand parents will occassionaly help with child care; and I'm sure the ECOs are aware of this. Whether these grannies are paid or not; in most cases I suspect not.

But visiting family and whilst here occasionally looking after the grandchildren is one thing; coming to do paid work as a nanny/child minder, as was the main reason for the OP's mother in law's visit, is completely different.

[manarak]

Indeed, as stated before any work, paid or unpaid, is expressly forbidden in the rules. Where the money is paid is irrelevant.

<snip>

many other otherwise identical mothers in law will have received visas to accompany family. Many will receive money to help with childcare on an informal basis.

You are certainly correct that visiting grand parents will occassionaly help with child care; and I'm sure the ECOs are aware of this. Whether these grannies are paid or not; in most cases I suspect not.

But visiting family and whilst here occasionally looking after the grandchildren is one thing; coming to do paid work as a nanny/child minder, as was the main reason for the OP's mother in law's visit, is completely different.

What about your personal opinion ?

Do you think the rules are well made and preventing close family members from looking after the children is acceptable from a citizen's point of view ?

[steady]

I don't understand this - Do you think the rules are well made and preventing close family members from looking after the children is acceptable from a citizen's point of view ? The rules don't prevent close family members from looking after children. The rules stop unqualified people from looking after children as a job. The fact that someone is family is irrelevant. If a citizen satisfies the rules then close family members can look after children, just not as a job.

[7by7]

Indeed, as Manarak would know had he correctly read all of the post of mine which he quoted!

As I said there: visiting family and whilst here occasionally looking after the grandchildren is one thing; coming to do paid work as a nanny/child minder, as was the main reason for the OP's mother in law's visit, is completely different.

Manarak, would you be as sympathetic to the OP and as critical of the visit visa rules had his mother in law been from Pakistan or some other Islamic state?

From various comments you have made elsewhere; I doubt it.