Ceiling Insulation - Worth the cost?

[Manassas]

Building a bungalow and automatically included ceiling insulation in the plan. Will be using air con. Was glad to see insulation batts (stay cool) is available in Thailand. But everybody from the contractor to the salesgirl at Homepro is saying "no need". Have done research on this website and others and most expats seem to favor installing stay cool. But is there any downside other than cost? Is there any basis for the Thai opinion that "no need" insulation?

[bankruatsteve]

Reflective foil under the roof tiles is the best. Otherwise, reflective foil covering the ceiling is next to keep attic heat from penetrating to rooms below. Most bats sold have some insulation but, in my opinion, is superfluous. IE: it's the reflection of radiant heat that you need. So, I think wasting money to pay for 10-20cm of insulation that has little effect in this climate.

I have been on a project to lay down reflective foil in my attic and the difference is significant. In the uncovered rooms, the heat seems to stream out of the ceiling. in the covered room, there is a 3-4C difference (measured on several occasions) and no feeling of heat from the ceiling.

BTW: I bought 60cm x 4m bats from Home Hub for B119. They fit nicely between the hangers for the ceiling.

Cheers

[Morakot]

No there is no downside to adequate ceiling insulation, if rooms below are used with aircon; you may even recover some of the costs over time by having a reduced electricity bill.

You should be very careful with ceiling lights and wiring that no fire hazard is created through insulation material.

As ceiling insulation is not widely used in Thailand, some "electricians" may not realise the danger a ill-placed ceiling light may cause. Regulation dictate a certain distance lights must be kept away from any insulation material. Wiring should be encased.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Morakot

[eyecatcher]

No need is a comment just emphasising their ignorance.

Of course there is a need for insulation if you want more comfort.

It also makes your aircon run more efficiently and economically.

There is a downside or two though.

An insulated ceiling although stopping heat entering via the roof means heat from windows and wall will naturally hang at ceiling level so consider something such as green energy glass which works to prevent heat getting in.

If you go for the staycool...good brand choose the ones with the highest thermal resistance. Look for the numbers 24,27 and higher.

[KhunBENQ]

Reflective foil under the roof tiles is the best. Otherwise, reflective foil covering the ceiling is next to keep attic heat from penetrating to rooms below. Most bats sold have some insulation but, in my opinion, is superfluous. IE: it's the reflection of radiant heat that you need. So, I think wasting money to pay for 10-20cm of insulation that has little effect in this climate.

I have been on a project to lay down reflective foil in my attic and the difference is significant. In the uncovered rooms, the heat seems to stream out of the ceiling. in the covered room, there is a 3-4C difference (measured on several occasions) and no feeling of heat from the ceiling.

BTW: I bought 60cm x 4m bats from Home Hub for B119. They fit nicely between the hangers for the ceiling.

Cheers

From my bad experience I can only support this.

When the house was built in 1997 I was not involved.

They lay roof tiles on the steel frame without foil !

No ventilation of the roof !

After we moved in (2011) I bought some of the thickest and best insulation "mats" and put it on the ceiling/gypsum tiles (tiles without foil on to of course ).

Effect is close to nothing.

I assume that a proper ventilation and reflective foil under the roof are indispensable.

Windows: few and small, just as essential.

Every window is a heat plate.

We have many and big

[masuk]

Reflective foil under the roof tiles is the best. Otherwise, reflective foil covering the ceiling is next to keep attic heat from penetrating to rooms below. Most bats sold have some insulation but, in my opinion, is superfluous. IE: it's the reflection of radiant heat that you need. So, I think wasting money to pay for 10-20cm of insulation that has little effect in this climate.

I have been on a project to lay down reflective foil in my attic and the difference is significant. In the uncovered rooms, the heat seems to stream out of the ceiling. in the covered room, there is a 3-4C difference (measured on several occasions) and no feeling of heat from the ceiling.

BTW: I bought 60cm x 4m bats from Home Hub for B119. They fit nicely between the hangers for the ceiling.

Cheers

Can't agree with you mate.

Australian and New Zealand standards for roofing insulation in the tropics, specify 15cm minimum batts for the ceiling, and reflective foil under the roofing material. A ventilator is usually needed.

In Thailand, ceiling cavity temperatures usually reach 70C. Foil is no match for this, and the heat is radiated down into the rooms, usually making the rooms hotter than outside.

Read Australian and NZ standards for roofing insulation.

If you're using air conditioning, there is a huge saving in power use, as you're not trying to cool the wild life in the roof.

In colder countries, one way of heating rooms in the winter is to use heating sheets, similar to car rear window defrosters. These go onto the top of the ceiling material, with 15cm insulation covering them. The warm ceiling radiates heat down. They're very effective.

Heating your ceiling to cavity temperatures in Thailand is not what you need.

[Carlosm]

The difference between using it and not is miles apart. Homemart ran out of insulation whaen i built my house and i had to do all but one bedroom. The entire house is cool but the spare bedroom was boiling hot, the heat radiated down onto your head and was very uncomfortable... walked back into the living room and instantly fealt the difference, for what it costs its worth every penny (or baht ).

[siamcrut]

Reflective foil under the roof tiles is the best.

100% Correct!

Plus ventilation gaps for the hot air to escape.

[Berty100]

Reflective foil under the roof tiles is the best. Otherwise, reflective foil covering the ceiling is next to keep attic heat from penetrating to rooms below. Most bats sold have some insulation but, in my opinion, is superfluous. IE: it's the reflection of radiant heat that you need. So, I think wasting money to pay for 10-20cm of insulation that has little effect in this climate.

I have been on a project to lay down reflective foil in my attic and the difference is significant. In the uncovered rooms, the heat seems to stream out of the ceiling. in the covered room, there is a 3-4C difference (measured on several occasions) and no feeling of heat from the ceiling.

BTW: I bought 60cm x 4m bats from Home Hub for B119. They fit nicely between the hangers for the ceiling.

Cheers

So reflective foil on the ceiling gonna prevent the cool air get in the loft space, and the hot air in the loft space from getting inside the room?

In your dreams.

Reflective foil under the tiles is recommended, but ONLY if it is installed correctly, which means that you have airflow between tiles an foil, which enters at the bottom and leaves at the ridge.

For the ceiling at least 6" fiberwool, preferable in reflective foil, is recommended because you don't want to cool the loft space do you.

[Naam]

Is there any basis for the Thai opinion that "no need" insulation?

the only downside is the ignorance of Thai builders!

[Naam]

There is a downside or two though.

An insulated ceiling although stopping heat entering via the roof means heat from windows and wall will naturally hang at ceiling level...

basically a logical conclusion but not matching reality in a tropical country where at no given time (except very cool nights) room temperature is higher than the temperature in the attic.

[Bentley333]

Install ceiling batts without any further consideration. Target R-value 3.5 to 4.

Glass wool has a thermal coefficient of app' 0.04. Therefore for this climate you will need 175mm-200mm (R- value 3.5). However, most of the insulation sold in T is encased in silver foil. The foil has a thermal quality (usually R-value 1) and thus you can reduce the thickness of the wool. The foil will therefore give you (R-2-two sheets-top and bottom).

Given the foil I would look for a minimum of 100mm of wool. This should give you a total respectable amount of thermal value.

You will be far more comfortable with insulation and save in the long run.

You can add underside vents and roof extractors to further assist.

G

[bankruatsteve]

Reflective foil will block (reflect) well over 90% of heat radiation (the hot air in the loft). It does nothing for cold.

Fiberwool/fiberglass only works with heat conduction/convection. It does nothing for radiated heat. It also blocks cold conduction. (cold is not radiated)

There is zero need to prevent AC cold from penetrating the loft because it ain't going to happen.

[masuk]

http://icanz.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/17132_ICANZ_ThermalPerformance.pdf

[Berty100]

Is there any basis for the Thai opinion that "no need" insulation?

the only downside is the ignorance of Thai builders!

I think you are too gentle when using the word "ignorance"

One example.

Normally here in Thailand a roof is installed by two c-profiles welded together on top of the columns.

In my house I have a 20 cm concrete ring beam all around on top of the columns, and next two c-profiles welded together on top of that beam.

Recently I had a Thai builder and he said that was WRONG.

[manfredtillmann]

in high humidity environments - such as the thai tropics - a impervious foil insulation will promote mould build up.

install roof ventilators to extract warmth and moisture and use 'breathing' insulation such as rock- or glass wool.

what would also really help are cavity wall building systems, rather than these pathetic 75mm thick rendered clay brick skin infills between concrete columns. if you build in internal wall in front off the outer wall skin, with a ventilated and insulated air gap in between, the amount of heat transfer will be reduced significantly.

if you want to learn something about the benefits of insulation look at the building designs of sweden, denmark or germany.

spent an additional 3% of your overall construction costs on correctly installed insulation and the overall energy consumption of your building can be lowered by as much as 25%. (old data from building courses years ago, improvements in insulation materials have probably positively increased these ratios).

[Naam]

Reflective foil will block (reflect) well over 90% of heat radiation (the hot air in the loft). It does nothing for cold.

Fiberwool/fiberglass only works with heat conduction/convection. It does nothing for radiated heat. It also blocks cold conduction. (cold is not radiated)

There is zero need to prevent AC cold from penetrating the loft because it ain't going to happen.

but the foil only delays and does not prevent the heating up of the attic. that means a properly ventilated attic is a must!

[bankruatsteve]

Reflective foil will block (reflect) well over 90% of heat radiation (the hot air in the loft). It does nothing for cold.

Fiberwool/fiberglass only works with heat conduction/convection. It does nothing for radiated heat. It also blocks cold conduction. (cold is not radiated)

There is zero need to prevent AC cold from penetrating the loft because it ain't going to happen.

but the foil only delays and does not prevent the heating up of the attic. that means a properly ventilated attic is a must!

Yeah. I suppose properly is the key word but I can't imagine how an un-ventilated attic in Thailand would even be possible. (?)

Anyway... I could give a rip what the attic temperature is as long as the heat is blocked from conducting to the rooms below. Whatever.

[billphillips]

in high humidity environments - such as the thai tropics - a impervious foil insulation will promote mould build up.

install roof ventilators to extract warmth and moisture and use 'breathing' insulation such as rock- or glass wool.

what would also really help are cavity wall building systems, rather than these pathetic 75mm thick rendered clay brick skin infills between concrete columns. if you build in internal wall in front off the outer wall skin, with a ventilated and insulated air gap in between, the amount of heat transfer will be reduced significantly.

if you want to learn something about the benefits of insulation look at the building designs of sweden, denmark or germany.

spent an additional 3% of your overall construction costs on correctly installed insulation and the overall energy consumption of your building can be lowered by as much as 25%. (old data from building courses years ago, improvements in insulation materials have probably positively increased these ratios).

Having spent a considerable part of my working career being involved in such issues, I can advise that insulating against heat in no way compares to insulating against cold. The European countries figures are to conserve heat, not to promote cold, it a totally different thing. Heat rises and is transmitted through the ceiling. Cool descends and dissipates through the lower surfaces. Avoiding sunlight shining onto the floor via windows and doors will save a considerable amount of cool air. Providing shade to external walls likewise. As for ceiling insulation ... yes I would put it in, but it's not nearly enough on its own and of minimal value if you do.

[Berty100]

Reflective foil will block (reflect) well over 90% of heat radiation (the hot air in the loft). It does nothing for cold.

Fiberwool/fiberglass only works with heat conduction/convection. It does nothing for radiated heat. It also blocks cold conduction. (cold is not radiated)

There is zero need to prevent AC cold from penetrating the loft because it ain't going to happen.

but the foil only delays and does not prevent the heating up of the attic. that means a properly ventilated attic is a must!

Yeah. I suppose properly is the key word but I can't imagine how an un-ventilated attic in Thailand would even be possible. (?)

Anyway... I could give a rip what the attic temperature is as long as the heat is blocked from conducting to the rooms below. Whatever.

But the heat isn't blocked from conducting to the rooms below, because you also installed only a reflective foil on top of the ceiling, which has also only the same delaying effect.

[sandyf]

in high humidity environments - such as the thai tropics - a impervious foil insulation will promote mould build up.

install roof ventilators to extract warmth and moisture and use 'breathing' insulation such as rock- or glass wool.

what would also really help are cavity wall building systems, rather than these pathetic 75mm thick rendered clay brick skin infills between concrete columns. if you build in internal wall in front off the outer wall skin, with a ventilated and insulated air gap in between, the amount of heat transfer will be reduced significantly.

if you want to learn something about the benefits of insulation look at the building designs of sweden, denmark or germany.

spent an additional 3% of your overall construction costs on correctly installed insulation and the overall energy consumption of your building can be lowered by as much as 25%. (old data from building courses years ago, improvements in insulation materials have probably positively increased these ratios).

That is what I have and it really does make a difference.

[manfredtillmann]

in high humidity environments - such as the thai tropics - a impervious foil insulation will promote mould build up.

install roof ventilators to extract warmth and moisture and use 'breathing' insulation such as rock- or glass wool.

what would also really help are cavity wall building systems, rather than these pathetic 75mm thick rendered clay brick skin infills between concrete columns. if you build in internal wall in front off the outer wall skin, with a ventilated and insulated air gap in between, the amount of heat transfer will be reduced significantly.

if you want to learn something about the benefits of insulation look at the building designs of sweden, denmark or germany.

spent an additional 3% of your overall construction costs on correctly installed insulation and the overall energy consumption of your building can be lowered by as much as 25%. (old data from building courses years ago, improvements in insulation materials have probably positively increased these ratios).

Having spent a considerable part of my working career being involved in such issues, I can advise that insulating against heat in no way compares to insulating against cold. The European countries figures are to conserve heat, not to promote cold, it a totally different thing. Heat rises and is transmitted through the ceiling. Cool descends and dissipates through the lower surfaces. Avoiding sunlight shining onto the floor via windows and doors will save a considerable amount of cool air. Providing shade to external walls likewise. As for ceiling insulation ... yes I would put it in, but it's not nearly enough on its own and of minimal value if you do.

thank you for your input, mate. you appear to be a thai builder?

heat and cold are exactly the same things, levels of temperature - it is only your perception that creates the difference.

as a person who has "spent a considerable part of my working career being involved in such issues", i know.

[bankruatsteve]

Reflective foil will block (reflect) well over 90% of heat radiation (the hot air in the loft). It does nothing for cold.

Fiberwool/fiberglass only works with heat conduction/convection. It does nothing for radiated heat. It also blocks cold conduction. (cold is not radiated)

There is zero need to prevent AC cold from penetrating the loft because it ain't going to happen.

but the foil only delays and does not prevent the heating up of the attic. that means a properly ventilated attic is a must!

Yeah. I suppose properly is the key word but I can't imagine how an un-ventilated attic in Thailand would even be possible. (?)

Anyway... I could give a rip what the attic temperature is as long as the heat is blocked from conducting to the rooms below. Whatever.

But the heat isn't blocked from conducting to the rooms below, because you also installed only a reflective foil on top of the ceiling, which has also only the same delaying effect.

There is no delay in reflection - it is immediate. But, it's not 100% reflection so some will be absorbed by the ceiling. What's Naam's analogy: like a baby fart in a bus terminal. Heat will also be conducted via framing but again that is minimal.

Look, I've done this and it is very effective. If you want to put in 12" of fiberglass, go ahead but it's not going to do anything but make you feel better because stupid Thais don't need it.

Edited June 4, 2016 by bankruatsteve

[manfredtillmann]

in high humidity environments - such as the thai tropics - a impervious foil insulation will promote mould build up.

install roof ventilators to extract warmth and moisture and use 'breathing' insulation such as rock- or glass wool.

what would also really help are cavity wall building systems, rather than these pathetic 75mm thick rendered clay brick skin infills between concrete columns. if you build in internal wall in front off the outer wall skin, with a ventilated and insulated air gap in between, the amount of heat transfer will be reduced significantly.

if you want to learn something about the benefits of insulation look at the building designs of sweden, denmark or germany.

spent an additional 3% of your overall construction costs on correctly installed insulation and the overall energy consumption of your building can be lowered by as much as 25%. (old data from building courses years ago, improvements in insulation materials have probably positively increased these ratios).

That is what I have and it really does make a difference.

day28_5.JPG

and fired bricks' too!

looks good.

[manfredtillmann]

in high humidity environments - such as the thai tropics - a impervious foil insulation will promote mould build up.

install roof ventilators to extract warmth and moisture and use 'breathing' insulation such as rock- or glass wool.

what would also really help are cavity wall building systems, rather than these pathetic 75mm thick rendered clay brick skin infills between concrete columns. if you build in internal wall in front off the outer wall skin, with a ventilated and insulated air gap in between, the amount of heat transfer will be reduced significantly.

if you want to learn something about the benefits of insulation look at the building designs of sweden, denmark or germany.

spent an additional 3% of your overall construction costs on correctly installed insulation and the overall energy consumption of your building can be lowered by as much as 25%. (old data from building courses years ago, improvements in insulation materials have probably positively increased these ratios).

That is what I have and it really does make a difference.

day28_5.JPG

and internal conduits!

mate, i want to meet you one day. this looks really good!

cheers

mft

[Laza 45]

in high humidity environments - such as the thai tropics - a impervious foil insulation will promote mould build up.

install roof ventilators to extract warmth and moisture and use 'breathing' insulation such as rock- or glass wool.

what would also really help are cavity wall building systems, rather than these pathetic 75mm thick rendered clay brick skin infills between concrete columns. if you build in internal wall in front off the outer wall skin, with a ventilated and insulated air gap in between, the amount of heat transfer will be reduced significantly.

if you want to learn something about the benefits of insulation look at the building designs of sweden, denmark or germany.

spent an additional 3% of your overall construction costs on correctly installed insulation and the overall energy consumption of your building can be lowered by as much as 25%. (old data from building courses years ago, improvements in insulation materials have probably positively increased these ratios).

That is what I have and it really does make a difference.

day28_5.JPG

I have built cavity walls in an extension to our home.. but I have used the insulating block on the outside.. my thinking is that the conventional bricks on the outside will soak up and retain heat.. also.. verandas to keep direct sunlight off the outside wall.. solar reflective glass used for windows... aluminium roofing ..cools quickly.. cuts radiated heat... foil attached to roofing... insulation above ceilings.. and importantly.. good air flow through roof space.... we use fans not AC.. stays comfortable during the day if windows & doors kept closed during the hot part of the day...

[themerg]

Are you trying to keep the heat inside the house ?

Why are you using batts of insulation ?

Do as The Thais do, tall roof, long overhangs, vents along top of walls with screening to let heat out and to keep bugs and snakes out.

Tall roof to let heat out vents. Long overhangs for shading, and cooling.

Do as the locals do.

Look at the architecture in Thailand and think.

Most of Thai architecture is designed for the heat and the heavy rains AND then BEAUTIFUL Thai Style is added to it.

Talk to the locals, bring your phrase book and use hand gestures.

This is their climate and building standards.

[manfredtillmann]

Are you trying to keep the heat inside the house ?

Why are you using batts of insulation ?

Do as The Thais do, tall roof, long overhangs, vents along top of walls with screening to let heat out and to keep bugs and snakes out.

Tall roof to let heat out vents. Long overhangs for shading, and cooling.

Do as the locals do.

Look at the architecture in Thailand and think.

Most of Thai architecture is designed for the heat and the heavy rains AND then BEAUTIFUL Thai Style is added to it.

Talk to the locals, bring your phrase book and use hand gestures.

This is their climate and building standards.

and you do not know what you are writing about. ok, you seem to know some basics. but your post reflects the 1970's.

thai building design is a very in - efficient way of dealing with environmental influences. it is cost based and by today's international standards, as pathetic as a sand castle.

blind to international innovation - because every thai thinks that the world revolves around them - thai construction standards lack behind in so many ways.

not just in insulation, but also in plumbing and drainage, electrical fitting, fire proofing, waste water recovery, storm water recovery, paving standards...

there is so much more to building than just to make a quick buck!

[NickJ]

I had the Loehr company spray my whole roof. Flat tiles.Never leaked. Had cheap electric bills. Used lots of ac......worked for me.

[georgemandm]

Building a bungalow and automatically included ceiling insulation in the plan. Will be using air con. Was glad to see insulation batts (stay cool) is available in Thailand. But everybody from the contractor to the salesgirl at Homepro is saying "no need". Have done research on this website and others and most expats seem to favor installing stay cool. But is there any downside other than cost? Is there any basis for the Thai opinion that "no need" insulation?

Don't I say don't listen to stupid Thais who have know idea and insulation.

You need it in your home , in Australia your can't build a home if your don't put it in your home , it makes your home cooler and when cold warmer.

Plus you it stops the out side sounds coming in to your home .

Just do it you will not regret it .