The GLBT angle to the Orlando atrocity

[Jingthing]

We all know the news by now and the general aspects are being discussed all over the place.

Starting this thread to focus on the gay angle, related to this specific atrocity, and also more generally and internationally.

I don't pretend to have the answers, but here are some bullet points (sorry) to perhaps get the discussion started.

This topic is open to all who wish to comment in a respectful way.

Bullet point one --

Early on (I wish I had the quote but can only paraphrase) an Orlando official says something a bit odd --

The people murdered weren't doing anything wrong.

Hmmm.

Doing something wrong?

Of course that had to be a reference to the victims being at a gay club, which facing reality, is something that a lot of Americans and global people DO think is doing something wrong.

No, not ragging on that official. I don't see any bad intentions.

But imagine an official saying something like that if the attack had been on a Jewish day school? It would never have been said.

Bullet point two --

Report in the press that GLBT people in the U.K. are being warned they should be aware of the danger of being targeted by Islamic terrorists.

Do you think that's any more true today than before Orlando, or just alarmist?

If it's true in the U.K. it would be true anywhere in the west.

Notice I said west.

Nobody is saying gay people in Thailand are being targeted by Islamic terrorists.

Why?

Because the atrocity in Orlando was not only about targeted gays but also about targeting the west.

Obviously if you're gay in Isis territory there is no question you're being targeted.

Perhaps you think I'm wrong ... that gay spaces in Thailand should be alert about Islamic terrorism as well.

Bullet point three --

The "hate crime" question. The U.S. legal system has specific definitions for regular murders, hate crimes, and terrorist crimes. It's not actually based on the number of victims. This is a technical question I don't fully understand. There is also of course politics involved.

Regarding the politics ... do you think there would even be a question of calling this a hate crime rather than a terrorist attack if the target had been a Jewish day school, the shooter had pledged allegiance to ISIS, and shouted anti-Jewish slurs and the Akbar thing while shooting?
I don't think it would. Yet there is an active debate about the hate crime aspect in this case, where clearly the targets were gay people.

Bullet point four and more --

The personal stories of the victims and survivors in the club and potential CLOSET issues.

This is the most high profile atrocity against gay people in American history.

The gay aspect is real.

Not that many years ago (in 1973) there was an arson attack on a New Orleans gay bar and over 30 people died, almost nobody remembers it now, it was not Islamic terrorism, and the police didn't even bother to investigate the strong arson evidence, and also didn't even bother to fully identify the victims, basically making statements they the dead were worthless people, many were criminals with fake I.D.s etc.

Things are so different now in the U.S. Yes, we've come a long way baby from New Orleans.
President Obama in his initial statement makes a very supportive comment towards GLBT people, recognizing the targeting of gay people.

In Orlando, where under Florida law, gay men are NOT allowed to donate blood, people who are not gay men are waiting in line for HOURS to donate blood.

That's extremely heart warming.

Right wing republican politicians with a proven record of opposing GLBT equal civil rights legislation making warm and sincere sounding statements about the victims, and stating who was targeted. Less believable because you know that tomorrow they will still not support anti-discrimination laws in basic things like housing and employment for GLBT people, but still better than the response of the New Orleans police to the arson atrocity before.

Seen on television.

A friend of a survivor making this clear to the public (paraphrasing)

My friend is not gay. Many of the people who were in the club, and injured and murdered, were also not gay.

No doubt that is true. Not only GLBT go to gay clubs especially on big event nights with a special theme (it was a LATIN night).

But get the point? I think he wanted to say that so that the public wouldn't think his friend was gay (presumably a lot of people think that is bad) so he took pains to make that statement seen by millions all over the world.

I can't imagine such a statement if the target had been a Jewish day school.

So you can't view this atrocity without considering the lens of homophobia. In the U.S. things have improved so very much ... but there is still a ways to go.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Out councilwoman from the district where the targeted nightclub is located speaks:

http://www.advocate.com/crime/2016/6/12/no-gunman-can-silence-out-councilwomans-district

Like Florida Sen. Marco Rubio, Sheehan isn’t waiting for a firm statement from the FBI to acknowledge this as an attack on LGBT America.

“I’m sorry, my feelings are definitely that it was,” she said. “It was meant to strike at the diversity in our community because it was Latin night. It was picked on purpose. But this community is a loving community. Right now, there are grief counse

I seriously doubt she is correct that the terrorist was targeting ethnic diversity, as in Latin night. There are lots of Latinos in Florida and Latin music is very popular. Apparently the timing is also related to a Puerto Rican cultural celebration. I see no logic that the terrorist was specifically after Latinos, though of course, it's true, it appears so far many or perhaps most of the victims are Latinos. The terrorist was an ethnic minority himself. I think the Latin Night thing was pure coincidence! It was a special event with a big crowd, could be Latino, could be anything.

The target was obviously gay people.

I had wondered whether the hit being in JUNE, which is well known as the month with most of the GAY PRIDE events in country, was a coincidence or not. Hard to know. If he had thought about it, he would have realized that a bit hit on gay people in JUNE would have special propaganda power. Indeed there is a heightened awareness with security now at gay pride events happening right now in direct response to the Orlando atrocity.

Of course, as far as timing, it's probably more like that the timing is because of RAMADAN (ISIS has specifically called for such attacks during this RAMADAN) than Gay Pride events ... so I suppose from a terrorist's POV it's a "happy" coincidence about the extra terror effect on the June Gay Pride events.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

A wider commentary but let's focus here on the gay angle, because that's the point of this thread, on the gay forum:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/once-again-national-tragedy-drives-americans-further-apart/2016/06/12/ec6c6350-30bc-11e6-8758-d58e76e11b12_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_essay-630pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

If Muslim beliefs were behind the attack, said Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.), “common sense tells you he specifically targeted the gay community because of the views that exist in the radical Islamic community with regard to the gay community.”

“I think it’s something we’ll have to talk about some more here, across the country,” Rubio said.

Others pointed out that many other religions have no claim to moral superiority, when it comes to their attitudes toward gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgender people.

“We want to get on the moral high ground when it comes to policing homophobia in other religions,” ESPN commentator Jemele Hill, a former Orlando resident, said in an interview. “We’re not the ones to be engaging in this, as if we have always been supportive of these issues. History says just the opposite.

[isanbirder]

I doubt whether the Islamic angle really means very much. Yes, I know IS claimed responsibility, but they would, wouldn't they? Surely this is an individual homophobic psychopath who happens to be a Muslim, and is jumping on the IS bandwagon.

It is a specific attack targeted on gays, just like the other one in LA who was caught before he could do anything.

That's how I see it, anyway. I shall look forward to reading further news when the police/FBI or whoever have further investigated both these guys.

[Jingthing]

It's a given the shooter was homophobic.

But it's also known he personally claimed affiliation with ISIS on a 911 call before the atrocity.

Does it matter if ISIS was directly coordinating with him?

I don't think so.

ISIS has clearly promoted this sort of terrorist attack, specifically in the USA, and specifically during RAMADAN.

So self radicalization via the internet doesn't count as terrorism?

As far as mental illness, you could say most such mass murderers are mentally ill.

But that doesn't exclude that they're terrorists if strong evidence points to that.

I agree not all the evidence is in on this case, but plenty is.

Muslim dude.

Had made such inflammatory pro terrorist statements that he was reported to the FBI and the FBI investigated him THREE TIMES on suspicion of Islamic terror connections!

He called 911 and claimed he was with ISIS. That appears to be KNOWN.

ISIS claims credit, I agree less compelling, it was a big terrorist success from their POV, why wouldn't they.

Not proven yet, claims that he shouted Islamic chant while shooting. Worth investigating.

Again compare to the more common Islamic terrorist attacks on Jewish targets in the west.

Sure they hate Jews but if they tell you explicitly they're linked to Islamist terrorism, they must be lying and it's only about hating Jews?
Come on now.

I'm really seeing a double standard in this case.

There is already such strong evidence that it was linked to Islamist terror and yet so many people are happy to write this off as not terrorism, and instead only a lone wolf madman only motivated by homophobia.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Jingthing

[isanbirder]

He played the Islamic card for sure. And yes, I would call him a terrorist.

His ex-wife (hardly the best witness) said he had mental issues and that this was nothing to do with religion.

"So self radicalization via the internet doesn't count as terrorism?"

I'm not terribly worried what you call it; what concerns me far more is how it is to be combated. In a way, this kind of terrorist activity is far more to be feared than the 'set-pieces' like the Bataclan massacre, because it can happen any time, any where, and is nearly impossible to take precautions against. Amazing that the LA police caught the guy there (who was not Muslim, was he?).

[Jingthing]

Nobody has said that all attacks on U.S. gay people in history have been linked to Islamic terrorism.

But Orlando clearly was.

[Jingthing]

An interesting commentary on the politics of who the victims are. Gays, Latinos, Gay Latinos, presumably mostly.

Not the highest regarded segments of U.S. society by significant percentage of Americans.

The identity of the victims might also reflect on the political campaigns. Liberals will rally around Latinos and LGBT”s, part and parcel of their core constituencies in 2016, while Trump will have to be careful not to insult the latter, at the very least. Reactions by Christian fundamentalists might also be relatively muted because of the identity of the victims. Homosexuals, fanatic preachers often remind them, are deviant sinners that the God and the Bible punish with death. Israelis are also sadly aware that reactions to victims of terror are often dependent on their backgrounds: Those from small development towns and Jewish settlements are often accorded less attention from city dwellers like those killed at Sarona Market in Tel Aviv last week.

Read more: http://forward.com/opinion/342544/will-orlando-massacre-help-hillary-clinton-unite-nation-or-give-opening-to/#ixzz4BRzXVjIH

Edited June 13, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

I'm including this item without much comment. It's pretty strong stuff and I feel not fully baked.

Not sure how I feel about it but I really feel this atrocity changes something big in the relationship between GLBT people and the majority in the USA.

As intimated in the OP, you really can't get more VISIBLE than this.

The media is awash in coverage of the terrorism angle of this tragedy. But to understand the impact of the shootings in Orlando, one must understand what gay bars really mean, especially in conservative areas.

To live and work as a member of the LGBTQ population in a conservative area means to not hold hands in public. It means to learn how to alter your pronouns on Monday morning so you don’t accidentally out yourself at the water cooler and lose your job. It means renting a two-bedroom apartment, even if you only need one.

http://www.advocate.com/commentary/2016/6/13/orlando-extension-marriage-battle-bathroom-wars

On another thread last night I brought up the issue of the CLOSETS that surely some of those at the club, dead and alive, had. Another poster mocked me, suggesting nobody is in the closet anymore in the USA.

That was so clueless!

Edited June 13, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

OK, there has been a temporary lifting of the ban on gay men donating blood in Florida. Emergency measure.

Another curious thing.

There was an FBI press conference and they revealed they have I.D.d all the dead bodies and are working on notifying the families before releasing all the names to the press.

They seemed a little surprised that they are having a very hard time finding family members for most of the people at this stage.

Duh.

I'm not surprised.

Many gay people have "alternative" families, friends as family, or they may be estranged from their family.

Some may have come from long distances with family having no idea they would be in Orlando, at a gay club, or both.

But it gets weirder.

They gave a phone number and then a harsh lecture ... this is for family members only inquiring about missing relatives. FRIENDS ... DO NOT CALL!

Anyone else get the disconnect with that?

Having friends call could in some cases be the only way that family members could be reached. If they want to be reached.

It's not so uncommon among gays growing up in fundamentalist families, particularly in the American south, for them to be kicked out even as teenagers and basically told, you're dead to me.

At the very least they should have been aware enough of these kinds of sensitive more GLBT specific issues to at least give an alternative number of a gay community organization where friends that think they can at least HELP with locating family (or inform there is no family that wants to know) to filter calls and then contact the authorities with solid leads.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Pictures of global sympathy for the Orlando terrorism victims.

Notice most of them have a gay connection.

Do you think that's really the case or did the Advocate focus mostly on those?

The Thailand one ... nothing gay in that one.

Paris City Hall. Wow:

http://www.advocate.com/crime/2016/6/13/photos-world-weeps-orlando

[isanbirder]

I read somewhere (sorry, no link) that Mateen had been several times to Pulse nightclub. Does this suggest that he was gay or at least bi, and that maybe he was having trouble reconciling this with his Islamic beliefs?

Here's the link:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36525219

Edited June 14, 2016 by isanbirder

[Jingthing]

I read somewhere (sorry, no link) that Mateen had been several times to Pulse nightclub. Does this suggest that he was gay or at least bi, and that maybe he was having trouble reconciling this with his Islamic beliefs?

Here's the link:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36525219

It could possibly be related to a severe case of internalized homophobia, or it could be that he was CASING the target, or it could be a combination of both.

It's been revealed he was casing other targets as well, not all gay targets.

In any case, some things are pretty obvious.

He had mental health problems.

He had hatred and anger against multiple groups of people.

He had links to radical Islamist ideology and clearly stated a link to that during the time of his rampage.

He targeted a gay club, so this atrocity was a MIX of Islamist terror and homophobia.

Just as a similar attack on a Jewish target would be a MIX of Islamist terror and antisemitism.

That's not really rocket science.

Doesn't need to be ONE thing.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Well, it's clear now that the terrorist's possible connection to gay sexuality (though no man has come forward yet to claim he actually had sex with him and maybe no man ever will and maybe he never did) has become a big part of the narrative of this event.

Many people who are hostile to GLBT civil rights are clearly trying to suggest there can't be a homophobic aspect to this atrocity because the terrorist was himself allegedly gay.

In the sense of POSSIBLY having had sex with men at some times in his life, as opposed to being a man who IDENTIFIED as being a gay men (the latter, obviously not).

Of course nothing is proven about that yet. Repeated visits to the club and chatting some gay men on gay apps could have just been an elaborate part of of a casing process. Being KNOWN at the club could indeed have lessened the odds of facing resistance when entering the club with his guns.

This is toxic stuff.

Attacked once by this terrorist and now by anti-GLBT civil rights propagandists trying to blow up the importance of the sexuality of the terrorist.

What matters is his actions.

He freely claimed affiliation with ISIS.

He decided to target a gay club.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

I want the authorities to research the hell out of this and tell us what they find, but there's already a lot of information, not all confirmed.

My current take, which could change, is this:

-- Father of terrorist is bullshitting to the media, he's virulently anti-gay related to extremist Islamist ideology

-- Terrorist, born in the USA, need to deal with that horror show of a Daddy

-- Boy grows up and does have gay sexual feelings, but because of his cultural religious background and specifically his horror show Daddy, can't get to the place where he can accept them in himself

-- Tries out heterosexual marriage. Not a fit.

-- Gets exposed more directly (other than Daddy) to current extremist Islamist ideology via the internet, local Imams, or both

-- Does the down low thing in Orlando to an unknown extent

-- The combination of his mental state (not good), the Islamist extremist conversion, and not being able to accept the gay thing in himself (INTERNALIZED HOMOPHOBIA) leads to the plan to become a martyr.

-- Side issue (did he think this would please Daddy?)

-- Picks the gay target. He had a choice of targets but he picked the gay one. That's not likely a coincidence.

-- So goes down in history for what he did in Orlando.

Again a MIX of acting upon Islamist extremism AND homophobia.

The simple minded people will say, how can this be homophobia, when he was supposedly gay?
EASY.

INTERNALIZED HOMOPHOBIA in this case instead of leading to suicide, leads to mass murder.

Obama seems to have GOTTEN this from the early hours.

There is no reason it needs to be just terrorism.

There is no reason it needs to be just based on targeting gay people.
It CAN be BOTH and I still see no compelling information saying it wasn't both.

Political enemies of GLBT civil rights are already spinning this in anti-gay ways, even sort of BLAMING gays for being mass murdered, after all it was done by a gay man, they say.

Either they aren't capable of understanding INTERNALIZED homophobia, or they don't want to, because understanding it would damage their agenda.

[Jingthing]

I wondered before if there was any significance to doing the attack on Latino night.

Well, there have been reports about racism, but nothing specific to Latinos.

To wit:

http://www.sfgate.com/news/crime/article/Complicated-picture-emerges-of-Orlando-nightclub-8114456.php

A one-time co-worker with security company G4S remembered Mateen as an angry man who used slurs for gay people, blacks, Jews and women, and threatened violence.

Of course, even in Florida there wouldn't ever be a gay Jewish dance music night at gay club and at a gay club that was heavily black, he would have been conspicuous.

He could have just attacked a non-gay Jewish target which is of course more "traditional" than a gay target for such terrorists, but there's a good chance such targets might be in higher guard.

Attacking a non-gay black target wouldn't have been a great fit for the ISIS ideology ... while they are generally anti-Western and anti-American, attacking a black target would have been quite odd not to mention a fair percentage of American blacks are indeed MUSLIMS.

In the U.S. context, it would be closer to what a white supremacist Christian identified terrorist might do ... definitely not a fit for ISIS.

At the gay bar, which he had reportedly hung out a lot, he could definitely and easily blend in before striking. Unless and until any evidence of anti-Latino racism comes out, still seems to me that the Latino night thing was only a coincidence (and also an OPPORTUNITY as Latino nights were their BUSIEST nights) and the targeting of gay people definitely NOT a coincidence.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Republican hypocrisy exposed:

Edited June 14, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

As is predictable the information about the terrorist's possible gay feelings (and/or actions) is being twisted in very weird ways.

When news of the Orlando atrocity first broke, I thought about the closet issues of some of the victims and survivors.

I hadn't imagined a HUGE part of the story was later going to become about the closet issues of the terrorist!

I'm sure many more juicy details will emerge later, but here are some current tidbits:

-- Multiple reports of him expressing virulent homophobia to coworkers. Of course not uncommon for closet cases, especially disturbed ones, to do that. Not necessarily only as a defensive cover, can also be how he really felt, as in internalized homophobia.

-- STILL not one report of any man that actually hooked up for sex with him, even any man that met him for a date! I had wondered about that before and the fact that still nothing is interesting. MULTIPLE reports from people near Orlando that they found his selfie photos on gay apps "CREEPY" and also the way he attempted chats similarly CREEPY. Multiple people on gay apps saying they just BLOCKED him. That's interesting psychologically as it points to the possibility that he was a total failure in the gay hookup world.

-- It's reasonable to discount the fact that not one man has come forward to say they actually socialized or had sex with the terrorist. Why? Shame and embarrassment to have done that with that horrible man, could be in closet themselves, could be ashamed of being into anonymous hookup sex, etc.

SERIOUSLY, think about it, if it was you and you think there was any chance it would make the news that you had sex with that horrible terrorist, and your name and picture got out, it would be broadcast all over the world and would likely ruin YOUR life. So why report it? So in that sense, more mystery.

-- Reports from the Orlando bar. There are reports that was seen trying to socialize with people and getting REJECTED.

-- There are still no reports of anyone witnessing him actually connecting (as in a pickup date) with anyone at the bar.

-- On the black racism thing, there is survivor witness who was playing dead, and she overheard one of the calls to 911 which have not been released to the public yet. Her report was she overheard him pledge allegiance to ISIS and that he was doing this because of American bombing in his country. Not sure what country. ISIS-land? She also said, interestingly, that he was talking (through a door or something?) and asked if there were black people there. Then he said something to the effect of, I'm not after you, you people have suffered enough. That conflicts of course with the report that he was racist against blacks.

-- His current (second) wife. Was that a relatively "happy" heterosexual marriage compared to the first marriage? I heard she's of Palestinian background and she is in some deep sheit now. Apparently talked to the FBI without benefit of a good lawyer and basically confessed that she knew exactly what he was going to do in Orlando, the place, and even the date. POSSIBLY there was a phone call from the club, possibly she had driven him there before, possibly she had assisted him in buying ammo, and of course knowing all that she failed to turn him on. She might even be subject to the death penalty depending on what they can peg on her.

Bringing this up here because superficially it sounds like he had a "loyal" Muslim wife ... how that relates to his possible gay thing, the reality of that still rather a mystery, I don't know, but still interesting.

Gay feelings or not, it was still homophobia and also Islamist terrorism:

“Forty-nine innocent people were brutally massacred in an LGBT space — this we know for certain,” said GLAAD president Sarah Kate Ellis in a statement. She added, “Whether the gunman’s homophobia spurred from hatred of others or hatred of himself, this is homophobia all the same. And it’s sadly just the latest example of homophobia turning to horrific violence, just as it has for decades.”

http://www.advocate.com/crime/2016/6/14/two-men-shooters-hometown-say-he-was-grindr

Edited June 15, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Similar thoughts to ones stated here.

Also keep in mind that "failures" and mentally disturbed people are exactly the type of people that Islamic terrorist organizations see as prime recruits to act in their cause.

He certainly fits that profile.

Why Orlando Massacre Has Americans So Angry With Each Other — It’s About Guns, Islam and Especially Homophobia

...
Ironically, homophobia is the one piece of the Orlando puzzle that most of us agree on. Ironic because it’s the one leg that raises the most questions. Evidence indicates the shooter was struggling with his own homosexual inclinations. If he harbored homophobic beliefs, they were complicated.

We know that he attended mosque and aspired to piety, notwithstanding his gay leanings and alcohol consumption. Orthodox Islam, like other monotheistic orthodoxies, condemns homosexuality. It’s likely he felt painfully torn between his two impulses, Muslim piety and gay inclination.

Did he choose his target because he wanted to strike a blow for jihad and felt a gay nightclub served a dual purpose — representing both Western culture and Western sin? Or was he driven to attack a gay club to exorcise his own inner demons — perhaps hoping, as some suggest, to end his life with an act of expiation for his own sin? Perhaps he himself couldn’t separate his tangled motivations.

Read more: http://forward.com/opinion/national/342712/why-orlando-massacre-has-americans-so-angry-with-each-other-its-about-guns/#ixzz4Bdsdcum7

[Bung]

Strange, I thought it was LGBT?

[Jingthing]

Strange, I thought it was LGBT?

If you prefer. Or add Q or other letters if you want.

Not what this topic is about either way.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Adding a caveat.

We know pretty solidly that the terrorist voiced homophobic opinions regularly.

We think MAYBE / PROBABLY he had a gay desire side himself, whether ever realized in action or not.

We know he did hit a gay club, claimed it as Islamist terror motivated.

BUT, here goes.

There is the point that there is evidence he cased other places.

Reportedly, I think one or two OTHER gay clubs in Orlando.

One would have been much easier for victims to escape, more open design, so rejected.

The other, perhaps more significant.

A Disney World related site.

No link to gay people at all.

But with much more difficult to penetrate security.

So if he had hit the Disney site, the not gay target, most likely he would not have had such terror success. But it would have been very symbolic to even have a modest terror success there. A Disney site would be ICONIC and of course central to Florida ECONOMY.

So a Disney target was an ideal and logical target from Islamist terror POV. Except for not being SOFT enough.

But he rejected it and he also rejected another gay, harder target.

I guess people can see where I'm going.

Is it possible he only or mainly picked Pulse gay nightclub because he knew the security layout so well personally and had also thoroughly cased the place, and felt (correctly) his chances of successfully committing a historically massive terror attack there was high?

That does call into question or perhaps possibly dilute the homophobia motive.

But wait, there's more!

Did he visit Disney this year during their GAY DAYS events?

Perhaps he had been interested in hitting them during GAY DAYS period, getting a DOUBLE PLAY, gay and Disney?

Don't know. But maybe the DISNEY thing wasn't divorced from the gay angle.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-nightclub-shooting-live-orlando-gunman-may-have-visited-disney-1465929797-htmlstory.html

On the first day I heard the press say they had a witness report that the terrorist while shooting yell:

You Don't Need to be a F-word (anti-gay slur).

Alah Akbar.

That could be significant if confirmed.

Not heard anything about that report since.

Also consider strong evidence he was a big social failure in the gay scene ... could revenge killing be an aspect of his motivation too? You know, like geeky high school kids who get bullied turning into mass killers getting justice against a society that has rejected them?

Edited June 15, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Has been posted elsewhere but worth posting here.

The victims of the terrorism in Orlando:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9tWYfHhJac

Another thing that strikes me about the victims other than what we already knew, largely young gay Latino men, is that most (not surprisingly) are quite everyday working class people.

Going out to a club to dance was likely the highlight of their week for many.

I have lived in cities with Latin Nights at gay clubs ... they are seriously a good time.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Jingthing

[Rimmer]

A personal attack has been removed

[Jingthing]

Something I hadn't thought of.

A very awkward time to be American, gay, and Muslim.

trump is, bizarrely, in the wake of Orlando trying to actively court the gay vote.

Personally I don't understand how gay people can fall for that, but maybe some will:

Yaqoob Abate, a queer Georgetown University student of Arab and Italian heritage, agrees that it's an enormous challenge to reconcile being queer and Muslim. “Muslims sometimes are uneasy about LGBT people,” he said. But Abate insists intolerance isn't only in one direction. In his experience in queer communities, “Muslims as well as people of color are often put into a box and tokenized in a way that other groups are not.”

This conflict grew more severe Sunday, as Trump gave a lengthy speech in which he framed LGBT and Muslim identities in opposition. He said supporting LGBT people inherently meant stopping Muslims — who he claimed want death for gay people — from coming to the United States.

http://www.advocate.com/religion/2016/6/15/be-queer-and-muslim-age-trump

[Jingthing]

One story. Brenda McCool.

A very cool Mom who supported her out son dancing with him at gay clubs.

Maybe sounds embarrassing to some.

If there is a "PFLAG" hall of fame, she's in it.

https://www.pflag.org/

Edited June 15, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

In the O.P., I brought up the issue that there had been a caution warning put out in the U.K. about possible Islamist terror attacks on gay spaces there. I wondered if there was any rationale to that or just alarmist.

Well, the way it's shaking out it seems quite probable that the Orlando terrorist was self radicalized without direct connection to the ISIS organization. In other words, it seems unlikely that ISIS specifically ordered gay spaces as targets.

Of course, they might do so in future, and there may be copycats.

But what is known now, it doesn't seem that gay spaces in the west are at any particularly higher risk of Islamist terror attacks than most any other public space with lots of people and low security resistance.

[Jingthing]

Definitely not the highest quality source, but on topic for sure.

Basically about (justifiably) DISSING the terrorist's gay hating Daddy.

Omar Mateen was a product of religious fanaticism — but not just the kind of religious fanaticism that calls on its followers to carry out mass killings. He was also born of the subtler religious fanaticism, the kind that expresses itself in jokes at the dinner table, disapproving scowls at gay people on TV, scolds at sons who “act gay.” The Islamic world has no monopoly on this kind of homophobic fanaticism.

There is a lot of blame to go around in the Orlando shooting. But let’s not forget to save some for the shooter’s father, and every father who does such a terrible job of raising his son.

http://www.thewrap.com/blame-the-orlando-shooters-anti-gay-dad/

[Jingthing]

Governor of Florida can't even SAY gay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMj7wzSGttg&feature=youtu.be

Compared to Obama:

"This is an especially heartbreaking day for all our friends — our fellow Americans — who are lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender. The shooter targeted a nightclub where people came together to be with friends, to dance and to sing, and to live. The place where they were attacked is more than a nightclub — it is a place of solidarity and empowerment where people have come together to raise awareness, to speak their minds, and to advocate for their civil rights."

Edited June 15, 2016 by Jingthing

[NanLaew]

People handle rejection differently, regardless of their race, ethnicity, faith or gender. The Orlando shooter certainly couldn't handle it and looks more like the desperate actions of a sad and lonesome nut job; or he "had issues" if political correctness is needed. I think the GLBT angle is getting overplayed as much as the ISIS angle. As they say in Thailand, "think too mutt". A severe case of the wrong place at the wrong time. The fact that the shooter had easy access to assault weapon is getting buried in the white noise about gay victimization, homophobia and religious radicalization for which the NRA are truly grateful... for now.