Bringing Thaksin To Account

[younghusband]

I and most others with an inkling of the background know exactly what you mean, and I strongly suspect Plus does too.He is just being disingenuous, in the knowledge that forum rules prevent the details of the power struggle being spelled out.

Justice IS being served, powers alligned with justice won. There was a struggle, naturally.

It's not obvious to me, and for many others here, is that powers alligned with justice have other motives behind the coup, as alleged by Mdeland.

Ultimately it leads to the question of credibility. For the vast majority of population the powers that staged the coup are beyond reproach.

You won't find any more justice in Thailand, it's the best they've got in the country.

You have weighed your words carefully here - "the powers that staged the coup are beyond reproach".It's partly why one must be so circumspect in response. I concede you have a legitimate point of view though it isn't mine, but frankly neither of us can speak for the vast majority of the population.Let's see how the future turns out.

[marshbags]

Moving on from the, if I may say so, rather smug mutual congratulations, I can assure you both that most foreigners and certainly most members of this forum were repulsed by the brutal war on drugs.There is no monopoly on moral outrage.

Unquote.........................................................................

...................................................................

I give / gave Kudos for all T.Visa members for their support and tried to make a point that was obviously missed.

While it is good manners in my view to acknowledge good debate and contributions, it in no way is intended to be in the form of " smug congratulations " as you, sadly, seem to interpretate.

This thread is about ALL the victims effected by this outrage and that,s the sole purpose of offering it for debate, while bringing awareness to members who are not fully aware of what happened and Thaksins ADMITTED involvement.

It is not about the off topic comments that posters have sent in, and, in my humble opinion, by doing so have tried to undermine it,s importance and objective.

You should also realise that should anyone have wished to hold a monopoly on moral outrage they would hardly debate it on T.Visa for self serving interests.

( i wonder why i think of Thaksin in general terms while typing this sentence )

You would undermine everyones good intentions by inferring otherwise and i,d like to think this is not your objective.

IT IS NOT ABOUT INDIVIDUALS OR PERSONAL EGO,S.

As anonymous individuals, apart from our T.Visa I.D,s what sort of phoney status can our ego,s gain from such false aims.

Another objective in our posts you refer to is to politely bring the topic back on course and encourage debate relevant to the topic, as in your case it usually gets it back on track.

S.J,s contributions to T.Visa are well known and appreciated and i make no apology for saying a genuine well done for this on behalf of the majority of all members.

No further comment is needed or receprocation either by the way should anyone think we are self postulating.

Apart from your first paragraph and the reference to another dictator / extremist you have made relevant observations and in your way of saying so and i quote " MOVING ON " are continuing the discussion.

Does this make you a part of a monopoly, of course it deosn,t and you / we, are a part of many individuals voicing / offering our digust and outrage, from all walks of life and cultures.

As for Thaksins guilt, he has already boasted " obscenely " and let everyone know, during the unlawful killings of these unfortunate souls and incriminated himself personally and is guilty, full stop.

Regarding the Thai opinion, i would like to think that now the reality of how his self rewarding intentions are concerned, their will be a mega shift on how they where falsely led to believe he did it in their interests.

Without sounding condescending thanks otherwise for your positive comments and support of the wrong doings highlighted in this thread..

marshbags

Edited December 4, 2006 by marshbags

[younghusband]

Moving on from the, if I may say so, rather smug mutual congratulations, I can assure you both that most foreigners and certainly most members of this forum were repulsed by the brutal war on drugs.There is no monopoly on moral outrage.

Unquote.........................................................................

...................................................................

I give / gave Kudos for all T.Visa members for their support and tried to make a point that was obviously missed.

While it is good manners in my view to acknowledge good debate and contributions, it in no way is intended to be in the form of " smug congratulations " as you, sadly, seem to interpretate.

This thread is about ALL the victims effected by this outrage and that,s the sole purpose of offering it for debate, while bringing awareness to members who are not fully aware of what happened and Thaksins ADMITTED involvement.

It is not about the off topic comments that posters have sent in, and, in my humble opinion, by doing so have tried to undermine it,s importance and objective.

You should also realise that should anyone wished to hold a monopoly on moral outrage they would hardly debate it for self serving interests.

( i wonder why i think of Thaksin while typing this sentence )

You undermine everyones good intentions by inferring otherwise and i,d like to think this is not your objective.

IT IS NOT ABOUT INDIVIDUALS OR PERSONAL EGO,S.

As anonymous individuals, apart from our T.Visa I.D,s what sort of phoney status can our ego,s gain from such false aims.

Another objective in our posts you refer to is to politely bring the topic back on course and encourage debate relevant to the topic, as in your case it usually gets it back on track.

Apart from your first paragraph you have made relevant observations and in your way of saying so

" MOVING ON " are continuing the discussion.

Does this make you a part of a monopoly, of course it deosn,t and you / we, are a part of many individuals voicing / offering our digust and outrage, from all walks of life and cultures.

As for Thaksins guilt, he has already boasted " obscenely " and let everyone know, during the unlawful killings of these unfortunate souls and incriminated himself personally and is guilty, full stop.

Regarding the Thai opinion, i would like to think that now the reality of how his self rewarding intentions are concerned, their will be a mega shift on how they where falsely led to believe

he did it in their interests.

Without sounding condescending thanks otherwise for your positive comments and support of the wrong doings.

marshbags

I admire your passion and largely agree your views on the drug war murders, but there must still be an full and transparent enquiry even though Thaksin is prima facie the chief instigator.His guilt cannot just be assumed otherwise it could be argued we are as depraved as those who participated in the murders.

[Plus]

"the powers that staged the coup are beyond reproach".It's partly why one must be so circumspect in response. I concede you have a legitimate point of view though it isn't mine, but frankly neither of us can speak for the vast majority of the population.Let's see how the future turns out.

Vast majority of the population welcomed the coup.

Just because you or me can't publicly question the "powers" doesn't mean that they don't enjoy wide public support. I'd say widest possible public support.

That's an important point that pops up in nearly every thread - we can't talk about "it" but it doesn't mean you can deny "it"s existence or diminish its role. I mean, yes, you can deny, denigrate, or do whatever you want using hints and other subtle means and you can't be publicly retorted. Some posters use this little loophole to their advantage, trying to "beat the system". Little cheats.

Sorry for hijacking the thread.

[younghusband]

"the powers that staged the coup are beyond reproach".It's partly why one must be so circumspect in response. I concede you have a legitimate point of view though it isn't mine, but frankly neither of us can speak for the vast majority of the population.Let's see how the future turns out.

Vast majority of the population welcomed the coup.

Just because you or me can't publicly question the "powers" doesn't mean that they don't enjoy wide public support. I'd say widest possible public support.

That's an important point that pops up in nearly every thread - we can't talk about "it" but it doesn't mean you can deny "it"s existence or diminish its role. I mean, yes, you can deny, denigrate, or do whatever you want using hints and other subtle means and you can't be publicly retorted. Some posters use this little loophole to their advantage, trying to "beat the system". Little cheats.

Sorry for hijacking the thread.

I'm sorry but there just isn't the evidence to support your contention the vast majority welcomed the coup.I accept the majority of the population is resigned to it but that's not the same thing.You can keep on repeating it but that won't make it true.I at least don't claim to speak on behalf of the Thai people.

Your second para is too oblique for me.Frankly, it sounds as though you have lost it - "little cheats" - which is a pity because normally I enjoy your distinctive if antiquated point of view.

[jumnien]

Marshbags wrote today,

Regarding the Thai opinion, i would like to think that now the reality of how his self rewarding intentions are concerned, their will be a mega shift on how they where falsely led to believe he did it in their interests.

End quote.

You have to remember that hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Thai households have experienced torture, killings, maimings, the ravages of addiction, kidnappings etc. at the hands of people in the drug trade. Many innocent people were killed in Thaksin's war on drugs, but most Thai people saw some of these viscious criminals that ravaged their families end up with a bullet in the head. To them, this is not about Thaksin, it is about some sort of vengeance for the attrocities that were commited against them by drug thugs and it is about the very survival of their communities.

I have complete compassion for the innocent victims of Thaksin's drug war and would hope that all those government employees who were involved are procecuted. I think you are right to shed light on this tragedy. But one cannot separate it from the greater tragedy of the drug situation in Thailand. We must also have compassion for the victims of those involved in the murderous drug trade and for the families affected. It is too easy, as some have done, to say that they are just un-educated and dark-skinned and were conned into supporting Thaksin.

[Plus]

I'm sorry but there just isn't the evidence to support your contention the vast majority welcomed the coup.I accept the majority of the population is resigned to it but that's not the same thing.You can keep on repeating it but that won't make it true.I at least don't claim to speak on behalf of the Thai people.

How can you say there's no evidence? Media is filled with people commenting on political situation, the general consensus is that the coup has ended a stalemate and prevented a dangerous confrontation. 86% approval rating wasn't passed from the army HQ, unless you know something than the rest of the country doesn't. Even if they padded the results - by how much? If it was too obvious people would reject the polls outright. If they added a couple of percentage points - it doesn't change the essense - people welcomed the coup.

Welcomed or resigned - as long as generals stick to their words they won't have any serious popularity problems.

[ColPyat]

I'm sorry but there just isn't the evidence to support your contention the vast majority welcomed the coup.I accept the majority of the population is resigned to it but that's not the same thing.You can keep on repeating it but that won't make it true.I at least don't claim to speak on behalf of the Thai people.

How can you say there's no evidence? Media is filled with people commenting on political situation, the general consensus is that the coup has ended a stalemate and prevented a dangerous confrontation. 86% approval rating wasn't passed from the army HQ, unless you know something than the rest of the country doesn't. Even if they padded the results - by how much? If it was too obvious people would reject the polls outright. If they added a couple of percentage points - it doesn't change the essense - people welcomed the coup.

Welcomed or resigned - as long as generals stick to their words they won't have any serious popularity problems.

That is funny.

The media works under very clear and well published restrictions not to be critical of the coup leaders, so obviously you will only get very slighly critical arcticles and reports. But hardly you will get a report that slams the junta. Since when was the media here anyhow representative of what the whole of the Thai population might feel or not?

And yes, under the martial law very few poeple will come straight out and say publically that they are against the coup, so it is very easy to get a 86% approval rating. In lack of other reliable facts and numbers logic and common sense should be applied - it simply is highly improbable that TRT and Thaksin, who have had in the last elections a majority of more than 50 %, and in the cancelled election of still somewhere about 48 %, could possibly have now, after the coup such a low approval rate.

As Younghusband said, the only thing that is reflected by these numbers is a resignation rating.

Anyhow, the thread topic, i believe is the drug war killings. I still wait for any answer on my reposted post.

Again, only accusing Thaksin of the drug war killings and other Human Rights violations is nothing but political posturing, but will not lead to a reform of the system that allowed the drugwar killings go unhindered in the first place. I don't see people here ranting against the famous and influental monks such as Luang Por Khun, who exonerated the killings by stating that killing drug dealers draws no negative karmic reactions, nothing against the many willful collaborators.

You people try to make it out as if Thaksin was the bad evil dictator, and the whole rest of the country acting on his orders in fear for their lives, but were in reality secret resistence fighters in the drugwar and other issues.

This attitude is preposterous.

Why are the willful collaborators in high and low places not accused?

Why, even though Surayudh's apology to the south, are the Army officers who directly ordered Tak Bai still free?

Unless these questions are not successfully answered and solved by the government, i cannot believe their propagated intentions for a substantial reform in Thailand. It's been more than two months, and so far nothing but forming panels, committees and sub-commitees that try to construct cases against Thaksin alone and appearantly purposely neglecting anybody else have been formed. Other than that is has been the usual sweet rethorics and empty promises.

[younghusband]

I'm sorry but there just isn't the evidence to support your contention the vast majority welcomed the coup.I accept the majority of the population is resigned to it but that's not the same thing.You can keep on repeating it but that won't make it true.I at least don't claim to speak on behalf of the Thai people.

How can you say there's no evidence? Media is filled with people commenting on political situation, the general consensus is that the coup has ended a stalemate and prevented a dangerous confrontation. 86% approval rating wasn't passed from the army HQ, unless you know something than the rest of the country doesn't. Even if they padded the results - by how much? If it was too obvious people would reject the polls outright. If they added a couple of percentage points - it doesn't change the essense - people welcomed the coup.

Welcomed or resigned - as long as generals stick to their words they won't have any serious popularity problems.

Totalitarian regimes regularly obtain 99% or even 100% approval ratings.I'm not of course suggesting this is a totalitarian regime but I wouldn't take opinion polls too seriously in Thailand at the moment, not least because they tend to focus on the middle class constituency where Thaksin is very unpopular..If there was anyway ever a country where the polled tell the pollsters what they want to hear, that country is Thailand.

It in my view shouldn't matter to the generals whether they are popular or not.They seized power illegally but as you say the coup ended a stalemate.(I'm dubious about your contention it prevented a dangerous confrontation:that's what promoters of military always say).Their job now is to stabilise the country and hand over to civilian elected rulers as soon as possible.

Surayud,though there are some unanswered questions about his past, is I think a decent and honourable man and will stick to the timetable.His greatest gift to Thailand would be to hand over a system of government that is properly representative, that is without some hastily cobbled up constitution that gives bureaucrats an overly significant role and artfully disenfranchises the rural majority.

[ColPyat]

Surayud,though there are some unanswered questions about his past, is I think a decent and honourable man and will stick to the timetable.His greatest gift to Thailand would be to hand over a system of government that is properly representative, that is without some hastily cobbled up constitution that gives bureaucrats an overly significant role and artfully disenfranchises the rural majority.

I have my doubts that a properly representative system government is going to happen for a long time, and is especially not going to be prepared by the present handpicked NLA, which apart from a few quota poor to keep face, mainly represents the old power elites, and nothing else.

[Plus]

Just over the lunch I read two articles in the Nation - one is an interview with Thammasat professor slamming the constitution drafting process, and the other Opinion piece slamming Thai policy on Burma. I didn't have time to read anything else.

According to you, guys, these articles do not exist. I guess I get a special copy, with all the negative reports included. Or maybe it's just selective reading on your part as you ignore anything that doesn't fit in your theories.

Where did 86% number come from? I understand the speculations about how unreliable it is and how it is similar to totalitarian countries, and how it cannot be true.

The fact is pollsters asked people and got 86% approval ratings. It was also done across the country, not in Bangkok.

Where did all the support for Thaksin evaporated? Maybe it was never there. All the rallies in support of Thaksin earlier this year were staged events, all the votes were bought, along with voters. Take the money and PR away and there's nothing left of TRT support.

Some posters here clearly overestimate the value of ideology in upcountry folks voting preferences. "They voted Thaksin because he empowered them for the first time in Thai history". Right. In your socialist dreams.

[ColPyat]

Some posters here clearly overestimate the value of ideology in upcountry folks voting preferences. "They voted Thaksin because he empowered them for the first time in Thai history". Right. In your socialist dreams.

Upcountry folks voted for Thaksin not out of ideology, but because he was the first PM whose policies directly benefitted them. But that has escaped your attention in your simplistic dreams.

Previously, and now, the upcountry folks are treated with ideology. Thaksin was far too pragmatic to treat upcountry folks with ideology, this he reserved for the urban middle classes. Major part of Thaksin populism and succes was policies engeneered directly towards particular target groups.

A result of that was an empowerment of especially the rural poor. And i am under now illusion that this was nothing but a side effect of the primary aim of staying in power.

I have already mentioned that slightly critical articles are allowed, and increasingly so now as the junta has solidified its power. It does nothing though to the argumentation that still the legal situation is so that the junta can crack down at will, and already has done so in some occasions, when it feels that lines are overstepped. There presently is no constitutional right for freedom of speach and assembly, only on sufferance of the junta.

Anyhow, the topic here are extrajudical killings, and bringing Thaksin to account. Shouldn't we return to the topic?

[younghusband]

Just over the lunch I read two articles in the Nation - one is an interview with Thammasat professor slamming the constitution drafting process, and the other Opinion piece slamming Thai policy on Burma. I didn't have time to read anything else.

According to you, guys, these articles do not exist. I guess I get a special copy, with all the negative reports included. Or maybe it's just selective reading on your part as you ignore anything that doesn't fit in your theories.

Where did 86% number come from? I understand the speculations about how unreliable it is and how it is similar to totalitarian countries, and how it cannot be true.

The fact is pollsters asked people and got 86% approval ratings. It was also done across the country, not in Bangkok.

Where did all the support for Thaksin evaporated? Maybe it was never there. All the rallies in support of Thaksin earlier this year were staged events, all the votes were bought, along with voters. Take the money and PR away and there's nothing left of TRT support.

Some posters here clearly overestimate the value of ideology in upcountry folks voting preferences. "They voted Thaksin because he empowered them for the first time in Thai history". Right. In your socialist dreams.

Honestly Plus you really do seem to be losing it and I had such faith in you as an intelligent if misguided contributor.Maybe it's just the Monday blues.

I read The Nation articles as well and as noted elsewhere I'm impressed with its robust approach.It's incidentally intriguing why the junta wants to cosy up with Burma:I have my views on this but they are speculative.

Your patronising reference to upcountry folks is telling.And yes Thaksin did empower them.That's the heart of the problem for the power elite.I know this country and I don't think there will be a dramatic confrontation:Thai people are attached to their institutions and prefer evolution to revolution.But the genie is out of the bottle.You and I and other foreigners might rant on this forum but the direction in which this country will move is inevitable.You may as well try to fight gravity.

Do you really think that someone who believes in democracy is a socialist? That would certainly have been the view of British conservatives who fought against the representation of the people legislation in the 19th century.Oh I forgot that's also your line.What a pity we have to deal with those pesky "upcountry folks" at all.

[sriracha john]

I know this country

Congratulations!!

Thaivisa's Most Humorous Over-Statement of the Year!

Well done!

[younghusband]

I know this country

Congratulations!!

Thaivisa's Most Humorous Over-Statement of the Year!

Well done!

Fair enough for the tease.It was rather pompous of me!

[hammered]

Marshbags wrote today,

Regarding the Thai opinion, i would like to think that now the reality of how his self rewarding intentions are concerned, their will be a mega shift on how they where falsely led to believe he did it in their interests.

End quote.

You have to remember that hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Thai households have experienced torture, killings, maimings, the ravages of addiction, kidnappings etc. at the hands of people in the drug trade. Many innocent people were killed in Thaksin's war on drugs, but most Thai people saw some of these viscious criminals that ravaged their families end up with a bullet in the head. To them, this is not about Thaksin, it is about some sort of vengeance for the attrocities that were commited against them by drug thugs and it is about the very survival of their communities.

I have complete compassion for the innocent victims of Thaksin's drug war and would hope that all those government employees who were involved are procecuted. I think you are right to shed light on this tragedy. But one cannot separate it from the greater tragedy of the drug situation in Thailand. We must also have compassion for the victims of those involved in the murderous drug trade and for the families affected. It is too easy, as some have done, to say that they are just un-educated and dark-skinned and were conned into supporting Thaksin.

The connection of many drug dealers who were not interfered with to the TRT is another issue that further confuses the situation you outline. However, I think we are all in agreement that those responsible for state authorised killings both in the drug war and in the South should be punished as of course should all drug dealers with the caveat that all offenders should be tried and then if found guilty punished using the legal system.

[ColPyat]

However, I think we are all in agreement that those responsible for state authorised killings both in the drug war and in the South should be punished as of course should all drug dealers with the caveat that all offenders should be tried and then if found guilty punished using the legal system.

I don't think we "all" are in agreement.

<snip>

/Mod Edit - baiting comments deleted.

Edited December 4, 2006 by Jai Dee

[marshbags]

How many have been unfortunate enough to witness the horror of any of these Extra Judicial Killings.

One such action took place on Phosri Road in Udon, not far from the " GneeSoon " supermarket.

A man rushed to get onto a motorbike, obviously trying to escape the now infamous method ( just days after word got around ) of Thaksins ruthless orders to, stop and the shoot to kill, policy and it,s strict enforcement.

There where Thai,s cowering in fear and total panic everwhere at what was about to happen as a policeman took his gun out and shot him stone dead.

He could easily have taken other actions to apprehend him but it was also obvious he had one thing in mind and that was to shoot and kill in cold blooded murder.

The distress on everyones faces was there for all to witness.

Big time drug dealer.......................................not a chance, just an unfortunate statistic to add to the list of innocent until proved guilty who never had a chance to speak up or defend himself.

Does it motivate my reason to speak up, yes it does along with at least 2580 plus ( official only) other reasons, not forgetting the families on top of these horrific statistics who continue to suffer unbearable pain.

Most where not thugs or vicious criminals and if at all implicated were on the lowest rung of the ladder regarding involvement.

At the most IF they had been convicted of such offences, penalties would have been minimal, especially when you compare the other extreme.

Many would also deserve to have served there punishment / received treatment where applicable and been back with their families, many never to get involved again.

Before anyone says yes and they would have been back on the streets and the drug problem they alledgedly caused would have been back to square one.

THE PROBLEM NEVER CEASED / RESCINDED IN THE FIRST PLACE !!!!

WHY? BECAUSE THE BIGGER BOYS FROM THE MIDDLE OF THE LADDER TO THE PUYAI AT THE TOP HAVE CONTINUED TO DO THEIR EVIL TRADE AND USE MORE SMALL TIMERS / ADDICTS TO DO THEIR DIRTY WORK FOR THEM.

marshbags and and that,s a fact in my humble opinion.

Edited December 4, 2006 by marshbags

[sriracha john]

The connection of many drug dealers who were not interfered with to the TRT is another issue that further confuses the situation you outline. However, I think we are all in agreement that those responsible for state authorised killings both in the drug war and in the South should be punished as of course should all drug dealers with the caveat that all offenders should be tried and then if found guilty punished using the legal system.

That's a reasonable course of action. Start with the kingpin, Thaksin, and work their way downward... same as prosecutors do with most attempts to squash any criminal syndicate.

Edited December 4, 2006 by sriracha john

[ColPyat]

THE PROBLEM NEVER CEASED / RESCINDED IN THE FIRST PLACE !!!!

WHY? BECAUSE THE BIGGER BOYS FROM THE MIDDLE OF THE LADDER TO THE PUYAI AT THE TOP HAVE CONTINUED TO DO THEIR EVIL TRADE AND USE MORE SMALL TIMERS / ADDICTS TO DO THEIR DIRTY WORK FOR THEM.

marshbags and and that,s a fact in my humble opinion.

That is complete fabrication.

Whatever ones opinion on the drugwar, or the drugs, the problem of availability of drugs was definitately diminished.

Where before drugs were available in every soi and village almost freely, during and after the killings drugs were in many areas very difficult to come by, and to prices rose up hugely, from previously 40 to a hundred baht a pill to between 200 and 500 baht a pill, depending on area.

In my wife's birth village, previously almost everyone below 40 user, or addicted, after the drugwar pills were simply not available anymore for any amount of money.

[Plus]

And yes Thaksin did empower them.....What a pity we have to deal with those pesky "upcountry folks" at all.

It's all going in circles and I'm really losing where these arguments start and where they go.

"Revolution is brewing because Thaksin empowered rural folks, rural folks do not show any desire to use their powers, but it's because of the martial law, but they definitely feel empowered now because Thaksin definitely empowered them. They didn't vote Thaksin because of ideology but because of his policies, that benefited and empowered them. Previous governments neither benefited nor empowered them, they only used ideology, but not of the right kind, as the right kind is the one that benefits and empowers them and it was introduced by Thaksin, but it wasn't idelogy, only empowerment and benefits, nevertheless, the revolution is brewing, though you can't see it, driven by newly empowered rural folks, who you can't see either, but there's definitely something going on."

And so it goes and goes and goes ad nauseum. Where are those pesky folks? Where is any proof of that elusive "empowerment"??? I know only one, no, two places were you can hear about it - TRT HQ and Thai socialists like Ungpakorn borthers. Those who flatly deny that any bribery was involved in TRT election wins, it was all honest and transparent and people voted in good conscience.

Surely there are people who sincerely believed in TRT propaganda, but their number, in my estimate, is less than 10%.

There are two models of socialism and democracy - one is developed in countries like Sweden, and I don't mean that when I refer to socialists, I mean the guys that staged Communist revolution in Russia - workers and pesants storming Tzar's palace with pitchforks. That was real empowerment, that was also a democracy, as they installed the government representing the majority of population. And for 70 years THAT was called socialism.

In terms of political development Thailand looks much more like Russia 100 years ago than Sweden today.

Back to the topic. There's this similar defence of Thaksin's drug war, or rather attack on those who try to prosecute him - he was the product of the system, demonsing him alone is not going to solve systematic problems. That implies that system must be changed. Changed into what? Soviet Russia?

I think this logic is misleading, as not only Thaksin is the product of the system, but the generals who ousted him are too, and thousands of PAD protesters were also the product of the system, and millions who voted against TRT were the product of the system, and so are the political activists that want Thaksin to be held accountable for drug war killings. What we see is system self correcting itself. None of these agents want to change the system at all. The only calls for changing the system come from socialists and TRT ideologists. Nice company.

[ColPyat]

...and I'm really losing where these arguments start and where they go.

That is rather obvious.

[sriracha john]

And yes Thaksin did empower them.....What a pity we have to deal with those pesky "upcountry folks" at all.

It's all going in circles and I'm really losing where these arguments start and where they go.

That's understandable, Plus, as they go nowhere but round and round.

That's why it all sounds so familiar to the same weak points that were discredited 9 months ago.

Edited December 4, 2006 by sriracha john

[younghusband]

And yes Thaksin did empower them.....What a pity we have to deal with those pesky "upcountry folks" at all.

It's all going in circles and I'm really losing where these arguments start and where they go.

That's understandable, Plus, as they go nowhere but round and round.

That's why it all sounds so familiar to the same weak points that were discredited 9 months ago.

So finally any attempt to address points made is given up.Yes it must all be a bit confusing if after months of megaphone braying on the same refrain, there is now a requirement to think through issues in a coherent and structured way.Instead we get the rather sad refrain of "my head hurts:it's all too difficult:my thoughts go round and round" like a rather challenged infant promoted to a class above his ability level.

[Tony Clifton]

Rather like an old vinyl record that keeps skipping back to the same chorus, over and over.

Edited December 4, 2006 by Tony Clifton

[sriracha john]

And yes Thaksin did empower them.....What a pity we have to deal with those pesky "upcountry folks" at all.

It's all going in circles and I'm really losing where these arguments start and where they go.

That's understandable, Plus, as they go nowhere but round and round.

That's why it all sounds so familiar to the same weak points that were discredited 9 months ago.

So finally any attempt to address points made is given up.Yes it must all be a bit confusing if after months of megaphone braying on the same refrain, there is now a requirement to think through issues in a coherent and structured way.Instead we get the rather sad refrain of "my head hurts:it's all too difficult:my thoughts go round and round" like a rather challenged infant promoted to a class above his ability level.

Actually, it's more akin to having listened patiently to a baby crying incessantly about how "Thaksin really is not so bad compared to others" and having refuted other lame points continuously for months that it makes one wonder why you types are so thick, despite trying to pontificate with such learned prose. Our thoughts don't go round and round... only your rhetoric does....

[jumnien]

Actually, it's more akin to having listened patiently to a baby crying incessantly about how "Thaksin really is not so bad compared to others" and having refuted other lame points continuously for months that it makes one wonder why you types are so thick, despite trying to pontificate with such learned prose. Our thoughts don't go round and round... only your rhetoric does....

On the contrary, listening to the anti-Thaksin folks is like listening to Rush Limbaugh whine about Bill Clinton on and on and on. You reduce every social situation in Thailand to: Thaksin = BAD, anti-Thaksin = GOOD. Many of us are not necessarily disagreeing with you about Mr. Shinawatra, but we are trying to explore the strange bedfellows and mercenary and devious motivations of the anti-Thaksin brigade. When we do this we are labelled "off-topic" and you go back to your Rush Limbaugh schtick.

[marshbags]

Taken from todays B.Post

General news >> Tuesday December 05, 2006

FATHER'S DAY TOLL OF WAR ON DRUGS

Children grieve for slain dads

ONNUCHA HUTASINGH SUPAMART KASEM

Kanika Selasuwan and Worapong Rukongprasert live far apart in Thailand's North, but they share a similar grief _ both lost their fathers to the war on drugs a few years ago. And today, National Father's Day, is the day that they will miss the men they loved the most.

Ms Kanika, 24, a native of Mae Hong Son province, said her father, Manee, was shot dead by a gunman three years ago while he was making merit at a temple in Chiang Mai.

She said her father, then 46, was on a blacklist of suspects in the war on drugs, which claimed the lives of more than 2,500 people, many of whom were believed to have been innocent.

Shortly before his untimely death, Ms Kanika said, the court had asked local authorities to remove Manee's name from the blacklist due to lack of evidence.

Her father was kamnan of tambon Tham Lot in Pang Ma Pha district. She said that back in 1994, he was named an outstanding kamnan. ''My father died for only one reason _ he led villagers to speak out against bad police officers who later were transferred out of the area,'' she said.

Unquote.

Pease go to the following url for the full article:-

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/05Dec2006_news02.php

This, sadly is the yet another reality check of what effects this evil, unjust policy had on the Children and their Families.

Thaksin still doesn,t show remorse or regret for his murderous scheme, even now towards these unfortunate innocents.

WHY NOT ????????????????

How much more evidence do you doubters need of the real agenda behind Thaksins War on Drugs ?

Silencing The Witnesses / Protecting The Puyai.

That is what it was really about, let,s be honest about it, if only to ourselves.

marshbags and

Edited December 5, 2006 by marshbags

[Tony Clifton]

Shot while making merit at a temple Scumbags, from the shooters all the way up to the top.

I think this is only the beginning, sadly we'll hear more and more of these sad stories now that grieving families dare speak out, less fearful of the same death squads popping back to shut them up.

[hammered]

Shot while making merit at a temple Scumbags, from the shooters all the way up to the top.

I think this is only the beginning, sadly we'll hear more and more of these sad stories now that grieving families dare speak out, less fearful of the same death squads popping back to shut them up.

It says something when a climate of fear created under an elected if not democratic government disappears under martial law although we also shouldnt forget how controlled information was under the previous government especially in certain regions where they didnt want criticism.