Visa Refusal Letter

[GU22]

It may have taken atlastaname over an hour to type, but there is nothing really new in there; very little that hasn't already been dealt with in many previous posts. I have no intention of knocking over his arguments yet again Search the archives if interested.

But there are a couple of points I feel should be addressed.

1) Atlastaname, you seem to be saying that when Scouse was an ECO, and an IO, that he was an exception to the rule. With respect to him, I doubt it. I am sure it is the rudeness mistakes some unfortunately experience are the exception.

The TV programme you cite as proof of your argument proves nothing. Of course they only showed the IOs dealing with suspect cases and people being refused entry. Watching them wave thousands of people a day through immigration would make for very boring telly!

2)My motivation?

You paint a very bleak picture of the visa application process. Even your reply to a simple question about staying longer than originally intended on a visit is packed with a dire warning about refusal for general grounds and obtaining a visa by deception. All rubbish as far as that posters situation was concerned. But of course, you know all about the perils of being caught obtaining a visa by deception, as doing so and being found out was the cause of your boyfriend's subsequent difficulties.

My motivation is to try and counter you and the other doom and gloom merchants. To show that obtaining a UK visa is actually very simple. All one has to do is show that, on the balance of probabilities, the application meets the relevant paragraph of the immigration rules.

ECOs are not monsters; they do not take great delight in refusing applications. They do not feel that they have failed every time they cannot find a reason to refuse and so have to grant an application.

Yes, ECOs do make mistakes, they do make the wrong decision sometimes, as Duality's case shows. However, in the vast majority of cases they get it right. In the vast majority of refusals the fault lies with the applicant. Either they simply don't meet the criteria or fail to show that they do, or like Phil's girlfriend they lie in the application and/or interview, or like your boyfriend previous breaches of the immigration rules cause a problem.

[atlastaname]

Ling men, thanks for your comments and I also like and read your posts.

We mustn't go on too long because its off topic, but your question highlights exactly what i am always complaining about with the system. You were successful before with that ECO but you could just as easily have failed with a different one.Many threads here similar to yours , some succeed and some fail. And the same will apply in the future. Depends who you get on the day .... and thats plain WRONG!!

[GU22]

For example, I successfully sponsored a girl for a visit visa with, in my opinion, a weak reason to return (letter from boss of massage shop allowing her holiday and a note in sponsors letter explaining not wanting to jeopardise future visas). Would it be granted if the following year I tried try to sponsor a different girl with exactly the same reason to return?

This is just a hypothetical question but I would be interested in anyone’s opinions.

Almost certainly not, unless you provided an adequate explanation of what happened to the previous girl and why that relationship failed.

When we were sitting in the visa section making my wife's application (sponsors were allowed in back then) a tearful girl came out of an interview room having just been refused. The reason being that her sponsor had done just as you describe, with no explanation as to what had happened to his previous relationship. In fact, this was the first the poor girl knew about him having a previous relationship and sponsoring a previous application.

People do try to break the rules.

People do try to get round the system.

Sometimes it is, as I'm sure is the case for Phil and Atlastaname, it is so they can be with their partners in the UK. More often it is for nefarious or criminal reasons. It is because of these people that the job of the ECO is so fraught with difficulties. It is because of these people that genuine applicants have to provide so much in the way of evidence.

Atlastaname says he doesn't care if a few Thai toms come to the UK to ply their trade. To be honest, neither do i. Unfortunately there is an increasing number of girls from many countries who are tricked into coming and then find themselves locked up, force fed drugs and forced into prostitution.

Atlastaname may not care about those unfortunate women; but I do!

[ling men]

I’m sure Atlastaname was talking about legal occupations and does care about these poor women, that comment was unfair and unlike you. I think I can remember reading somewhere that if the visa failed it would be because of the applicant and not the sponsor. If you are a sponsor, do they keep your particulars on a database? And if you were to apply for a second girls visa as described before but didn't declare it, would this be flagged up to the ECO?

I’m not trying to be argumentative here, just inquisitive.

[Duality]

hi chaps,

First of all can i ask you all something? would you accept a refusal letter that is not even signed by the ECO ? I know they are trying to make a quicker service but i think they can spare the time to sign the letter.

Is this standard practice now ?

I will try to answer some of the questions, not much time to go through them all now.

Phil - we have been together for 3 years and engaged for almost 2 years now. I'm glad to say that we haven't so far had our relationship questioned. Everything on that front seems to be ok.

However my cover letter has been disregarded, they don't believe we intend to return to Thailand and marry otherwise why say she has no reason to return ? she does have property in Thailand and a very reasonable chance for a person with work experience as an accountant and a degree in business of finding employment.

All of the doubts the ECO had could have been sorted out with an interview ( i feel we paid enough to be granted one ) in which further evidence would have been provided. mostly verbal but she did apply for a goverment sector job recently and is waiting for the next available exam date.

cheers all. thanks for your support.

Edited November 15, 2006 by Duality

[atlastaname]

It may have taken atlastaname over an hour to type, but there is nothing really new in there; very little that hasn't already been dealt with in many previous posts. I have no intention of knocking over his arguments yet again Search the archives if interested.

But there are a couple of points I feel should be addressed.

1) Atlastaname, you seem to be saying that when Scouse was an ECO, and an IO, that he was an exception to the rule. With respect to him, I doubt it. I am sure it is the rudeness mistakes some unfortunately experience are the exception.

The TV programme you cite as proof of your argument proves nothing. Of course they only showed the IOs dealing with suspect cases and people being refused entry. Watching them wave thousands of people a day through immigration would make for very boring telly!

2)My motivation?

You paint a very bleak picture of the visa application process. Even your reply to a simple question about staying longer than originally intended on a visit is packed with a dire warning about refusal for general grounds and obtaining a visa by deception. All rubbish as far as that posters situation was concerned. But of course, you know all about the perils of being caught obtaining a visa by deception, as doing so and being found out was the cause of your boyfriend's subsequent difficulties.

My motivation is to try and counter you and the other doom and gloom merchants. To show that obtaining a UK visa is actually very simple. All one has to do is show that, on the balance of probabilities, the application meets the relevant paragraph of the immigration rules.

ECOs are not monsters; they do not take great delight in refusing applications. They do not feel that they have failed every time they cannot find a reason to refuse and so have to grant an application.

Yes, ECOs do make mistakes, they do make the wrong decision sometimes, as Duality's case shows. However, in the vast majority of cases they get it right. In the vast majority of refusals the fault lies with the applicant. Either they simply don't meet the criteria or fail to show that they do, or like Phil's girlfriend they lie in the application and/or interview, or like your boyfriend previous breaches of the immigration rules cause a problem.

1) I never said he was the exception , just that he might have been

2) i never said there was anything new. Some new members may not be as familiar with our previous arguements as you seem to take for granted. It is there for them to read or ignore.

3) you have never knocked over my arguements, just presented your biased view in reply.

4) I never said the programme PROVED anything , just that it was for me an interesting insight to some very rude behaviour . Suspect cases as you call them were occasionally allowed in showing that they were after all entitled to come here. This mistake by the Immigration was never followed by an apology. Why not ??

5)I am quite correct in saying they COULD refuse it on general grounds if they wished, however unlikely. You are by turn totally wrong to say they cannot. They can if they viewed the previous visa as deception. Sorry but you are wrong .

6)i suppose i should be relieved you are no longer peddling the accusation you once made that my partner was an overstayer . (BTW i never read your apology for making that accusation)

7) You say above that obtaining a vsia is "actually very simple". Who was it that said a while back that getting the visa for his wife was about the most stressful experience of their lives? Oh yes.. i remember.. it was YOU!!!

8) You keep using the word monsters not me . They are unusually rude and aloof people and in my opinion sometimes very nasty and vindictive. And some are ok...ish. That is my experience over the years. I accept others may have found them to be angels, but i have not.

9) Yes they do make mistakes and the procedures for addressing them are totally inadequate and can occupy a year or more of someones time. But i know you find that acceptable..i don't

[GU22]

Ling men,

Yes, it is primarily the applicants intentions that the ECO is considering, but the sponsors intentions do count as well. Details of sponsors passport number etc. is kept, and, as already described, were someone to sponsor a different applicant the visa section would know about the previous one.

How long this information is kept, I don't know. I suspect years rather than months.

Duality,

I don't know if it is standard procedure these days to sign a refusal notice where there has been no interview.

I have already said that this refusal was perverse, and hope that you have taken Scouse up on his offer.

I would like to say that these two visit visa refusals will almost certainly have no effect on her settlement application when the time comes. Having twice refused her a visit visa because they felt that she would stay with you in the UK, they cannot then say they don't believe the relationship is real, can they?

Best of luck in whatever you decide.

[GU22]

Atlastaname, all your points have been previously addressed. Carrying on like this will only cause terminal boredom among other members, and prompt Scouse into deleting the posts.

I haven't apologised for calling him an overstayer because, if I remember what you said correctly, not only did he obtain his student visa by deception, he also overstayed it!

If you are now saying that he didn't overstay, I will accept that.

Any chance of you answering my much earlier question about how you would feel if you had an appointment to see the ECM and it was cancelled to make room for someone jumping the queue?

Edited November 15, 2006 by GU22

[Phil_ne_uk]

Phil, is the application you refer to the one you talked about on another forum? You remember, the one where she lied in the interview and was caught?

GU22 excuse me but my girlfriend did not lie so obviously couldn’t be found out as there was <deleted> all to be found out about!

I posted earlier word for word what the refusal said which mentions nothing about disbelieving her or me. (if you had bothered to read it instead of just slagging other forum users) When she got the vv the second time round, the only difference was that we had known each other 6 months instead of 3 which conclusively proves without doubt that their pathetic reasons for refusing the 1st vv were totally unjust. Yet another example of the eco’s being nasty as Atlastaname said. However I don’t think they’re nasty, I think they’re total T**ts as I’m certain many other forum users will agree!

or like Phil's girlfriend they lie in the application and/or interview,

I would also appreciate if you will kindly refrain from writing slanderous lies in this forum about my partner!

Edited November 15, 2006 by Phil_ne_uk

[GU22]

GU22 excuse me but my girlfriend did not lie so obviously couldn’t be found out as there was <deleted> all to be found out about!

So, Phil, that leaves only two possibilities.

1) The posts you made on another forum at the time admitting that she had lied about the length of time you had known each other were incorrect. So why did you make them? (I can provide links if desired, but the posts are only accessible by members of that forum.)

2) There is another Phil_ne_uk who has a girlfriend with the same name and same circumstances who applied at the same time.

Which is it?

[siamaloha]

Face it, in this post-9/11 era, about the only way a Thai can get into the West is if they are going on business, showing documentation which ties them to their contacts in the West, have a huge bank account (100K isn't going to cut it), own significant assets here (including a house & business). and have shown other exit/entry stamps in their passports from other trips outside Thailand (such stamps from even non-western countries help, I believe).

I disagree. In my partner's case at the American Embassy, his relationship with me (living in Thailand on a retirement visa) and his letter from work were enough to prove his ties to Thailand and secure him a 10 year multi-entry US Tourist Visa. While he had documentation of his "huge bank account," Isaan land deed, entry/exit stamps and everything else we thought might help (see this thread) the CO asked about none of it. We feel incredibly fortunate. I feel for those who are not.

[atlastaname]

Phil, as another object of GU22's wrath i can honestly say i know how you feel. GU22 will never have it that SOME of the ECO's are w****** , and vindictive ones at that. You are banging your head against a brick wall. He would make a good ECO in may ways. You won't get an apology (like i still haven't re the overstayer) so don't bother. You are right in your views, try to spread the word so that others know what to expect. There is little else you can do

GU22 , its such a trivial point but i will reply as you keep pushing. When i had that conversation with the ECM and she said she was available on day 8 (after i had just flown back to the UK) it was done in such a way as to leave me with no doubt that she was deliberately doing it so i couldn't attend. You know when you have a conversation with someone and you know they are taking the piss. I knew it , she knew it AND she knew i knew it . Such is their power they don't have to care. I had already changed my flight from day 3 to day 7 so i could see her , had i made it day 14 i'm sure she would have been busy until day 15 etc . I agree with you that had she been genuinely busy then fair do's , but she wasn't . Sometimes you can just tell. And are you seriously trying to tell me that she couldn't have fitted me in in SEVEN days!!

I realise that this has got a bit heated, but not enough for Scoucer to consider deletion. It is all valid arguement and we've had far worse in the past , although i think GU22 for your own good you should refrain from calling me and Phil liars and deceivers . I am used to your ways , but Phil isn't and you may find yourself suspended by Scoucer for slander.

[GU22]

are you seriously trying to tell me that she couldn't have fitted me in in SEVEN days!!

It is just as, if not more, believable than the accusation that she deliberately made sure that she couldn't see you. I say again, if you were that incensed and sure of you ground at the time, couldn't you have postponed your flight for a couple of days?

i think GU22 for your own good you should refrain from calling me and Phil liars and deceivers

I have never, to the best of my recollection, called you a liar. You have in the past (when you were Silomfan) admitted that when your boyfriend applied for his student visa, which was granted, he had no intention of studying.

As for Phil, well I will quote from the post on that other forum which I referred to above (which can be found here)

I met her in Patong, Phuket. The negative points are that we only stayed together for 6 days before I returned home, and that we met in the bar where she worked. So, for the visa application, we're going to say that we knew each other for 2 weeks and that we met in the hairdresser's where she worked. Only 2 lies, the rest is true.

Q.E.D.

[atlastaname]

Phil,

thanks for the PM i just got . You are quite right of course. And YES i will keep fighting to make people aware of what REALLY goes on... i am not a wimpy kind of person who gives up except and until i chose to.

GU22... leave it man .. you are going to give yourself a coronary ... and then who would be my sparring partner

[GU22]

'Fight' all you want to, old chap. But what you say really goes on bears as much of a relationship to the facts as Blair's WMD dossier did.

Like him, you probably believe what you say, but what you say is wrong.

[atlastaname]

I'll let you have the last word as always GU22.

But i think if you re-read this thread you have lost the arguement as far as me and the other posters are concerned. The only thing to save you may be if scouser decided to delete the posts to help out his old friend .. and there is absolutely no reason why he should EXCEPT to help out his old friend.

[markr]

Dont know about anyone else but i have found your debates this afternoon completely fascinating!!!

Taken my mind off the misses interview completely, you are a proper pair of politicians!!!!!!!

cheers guys

[Pink Mist]

Dont know about anyone else but i have found your debates this afternoon completely fascinating!!!

Taken my mind off the misses interview completely, you are a proper pair of politicians!!!!!!!

cheers guys

a voice of calm in the wilderness of embassies and visas

[atlastaname]

Dont know about anyone else but i have found your debates this afternoon completely fascinating!!!

Taken my mind off the misses interview completely, you are a proper pair of politicians!!!!!!!

cheers guys

Happy to be of assistance Mark

[Phil_ne_uk]

for the visa application, we're going to say that we knew each other for 2 weeks and that we met in the hairdresser's where she worked. Only 2 lies, the rest is true.

Well GU22 for once (a big once I reckon) you’re correct! To be honest that was sooooo long ago that I had forgotten about those minor fibs. Over two years!

The fibs were NOT the reasons for the 1st refusal anyway. I have stated the eco’s feeble reasons already. So what anyway? Had she been totally truthful they would have probably refused the vv through their pettiness. We only knew each other 6 days not 14. who gives a shi*? As long as one can cover their ars* so no-one knows it doesn’t matter. They couldn’t prove how long we had known each other was a lie and she had worked at a beauty salon prior. Shows they’re not as clever as they think they are though doesn’t it GU22?

Finally, it’s great that someone has the time to check up on members’ posts, even to the extent to go searching on OTHER forums to remind people what they previously said! Or rather should I say it’s a bit sad that someone’s life must be so boring and that they must have <deleted> all else to do with their time other than to try to stir things!!

Well, I’m off to the bar now, nite nite!

[Mossfinn]

Just like old times, chaps, don't you think.

I was getting the impression prior to today that you were getting on rather well.

Oh well, i knew it couldn't last.

Good Luck

Moss

[Duality]

Jesus, what have i started here?

[Mossfinn]

Jesus, what have i started here?

You have requested assistance thats all, thats what this forum is all about.

Did you PM Scouse?

Good Luck

Moss

[GU22]

Apologies, Duality.

Atlastaname and myself do seem to be a lot calmer and more sensible today.

[LaReina]

Must say this is interesting stuff.

Visa applications are simple and easy. However the process is extremely stressful. It is not HARD, it is stressful as you await the outcome.

I think your paperwork is one thing. The next big important factor, which none of you men seem to realise, is the way the applicant conducts themselves during the interview process.

Body language!

How nervous are they when asked certain questions.

Do they maintain eye contact.

Do they answer a question when asked directly or do they hesitate and try and go around it.

Are they confident.

When I ask a person a simple question with an answer that should rolll off their tongue, and they hesitate and think about it first, I tend not to believe their answer.

Just my two cents.

[atlastaname]

I understand what you are saying and you are right up to a point. But what YOU are forgetting is that Thai people, in my experience without exception , are lousy ...i mean really lousy , at interview technique. Obviously it must be a culture thing because none of them can do it . You could ask them the time and they would hesitate and be unsure. I can't count the times my Thai friends have been speaking over the phone and they say "its 12 o'clock now..." and i look at my watch and its 11.25. You get the point i'm sure.

I long ago formed the opinion that the Thai culture is built around vagueness , exaggeration and lies , with the odd bit of truth thrown in .I don't mean just with foreigners, but with each other also. This explains to me at least why they can't get it right at interview. So it doesn't mean they are hiding something , just that they don't know how to respond to direct questioning.