Is there any need for a schengen visa

[kannot]

Im a UK resident have been all my life, my Wife is Thai, I own some land in Madeira which is part of Portugal.

Am I correct in thinking that an EU Citizen (ME) can take his Wife to an EU country even if she is NOT an EU citizen if they go together ie there is no need for a Schengen visa.

My Wife will visit me in the UK in July, she already has an approved UK 6 month Visa and with this there is no issue.

My understanding is she will need to prove she is my Wife , am assuming Thai wedding cert? anything else?

Its a long story but she went for a schengen visa today at the Portuguese embassy in BKK but they are being bloody minded saying she must have tickets booked and hotel booked in Madeira for them to approve it.

Ive already told them what happens "if" they do not approve it? ie are they going to refund me the cost of 3 flights from the UK to Madeira and the Hotel cost for a week.well i think we all know the answer to that .

Ive said I wont book anything until visa is approved but they are adamant which seems bloody crazy to me.

Never had this problem with the Swiss embassy when she went there a few years back and this will be her 4th UK trip in as many years.

So this is why i ask about no visa and the above rule on EU citizen and foreign Wife going to any other European state.

Ive seen it here

https://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/04/15/requirements-for-a-short-stay-visa-family-of-eu-citizen/

[theoldgit]

In theory she could pitch up at the Portuguese border and gain admission as the spouse of an EU National, not always practical as a carrier may refuse to board her.

Applying for a Schengen Visa is the easiest solution, or at least it should be, as you're aware as the wife of an EU Citizen a visa should be issued quickly, free of charge and without the need to provide the extras which you prefer.

All you should need to supply is evidence that you're an EU national, evidence that you're a couple and that you're travelling together or plan to meet up. The generic application form actually indicates what information is required and what isn't.

Did you apply at the Consulate or via a Visa Application Centre?

You might want to have look through the helpful pinned topics written by Donutz.

[Tomtomtom69]

I have heard the same thing and plan to bring my wife to Switzerland for a holiday. Sorry I can't be of more help but I really don't trust that the Schengen region would really allow a foreigner married to a citizen to enter without a visa. There's just too much that can go wrong by following that advice. For starters, she wouldn't probably even be allowed to board her flight. My own wife (then fiancée) on her first trip to Australia in 2013 (on a tourist visa) had a one way ticket on THAI and a separate ticket on Singapore Airlines for the return. The check-in agent was initially reluctant to let her onboard, despite possessing a visa (they have been using electronic visas for a number of years now in Australia). She showed the return ticket and after a bit of an exchange was given a boarding pass. Apparently the agent thought a Thai national must have a round-trip (return) ticket on the same airline?

Given what happened to my wife, I can only imagine how much less likely a check-in agent would be to let a Thai national without a visa fly to Europe. I wouldn't want to risk being in that situation.

I'd suggest getting her a visa and if she has a job to go back to it's unlikely she would be rejected anyway.

[Donutz]

ToG is spot on. In theory you can arrive at the border and get a visa on the spot if you can show a legal marriage and both your IDs. But good luck boarding a plane without visa, not going to happen. Should work for cross channel connections (ferry, train) if the border authority is on your side of the water. They can then issue a visa on the spot.

The EU advices to get the visa in advance. Which in your case could be obtained for free at aby Portugese embassy in the world. Your maritial papers (possibly translated so the embassy can read it in a language they understand) and legalized (if doubts about authenticity) and ofcourse your and her ID. Any indication of your partner joining or traveling with you is sufficient. A letter from your hand should do. If you like you could include a travel or hotel reservation, does not need to be a definitive booking. Definitive fully paid bookings are not even requered for regular Schengen visas let alone the fast, easy, minimum hassle/papers, free visa for spouse of an EU/EEA/CZ national.

More info in the Schengen sticky. By the sound of it you are dealing with a staff member who needs a refreshment course. Or by any change desling with poorly trained third party staff (VFS...)?

Edit: for regular visas a travel reservation (no booking!) and showing accomodation (hotel booking for most, does not need to be fully paid) is required. So even those applicants should lose little money if the visa is denied. EU family applicants don't need all this.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Donutz

[kannot]

Thanks for the info, for your information this was at the Portuguese Embassy in Bangkok this morning, Ive already e mailed them saying a visa to Portugal should be free and issued quickly as per Ec directive 2004/38/EC regarding the Freedom of Movement.......but they havent replied yet to a 4 day old mail I sent them.

[kannot]

I have heard the same thing and plan to bring my wife to Switzerland for a holiday. Sorry I can't be of more help but I really don't trust that the Schengen region would really allow a foreigner married to a citizen to enter without a visa. There's just too much that can go wrong by following that advice. For starters, she wouldn't probably even be allowed to board her flight. My own wife (then fiancée) on her first trip to Australia in 2013 (on a tourist visa) had a one way ticket on THAI and a separate ticket on Singapore Airlines for the return. The check-in agent was initially reluctant to let her onboard, despite possessing a visa (they have been using electronic visas for a number of years now in Australia). She showed the return ticket and after a bit of an exchange was given a boarding pass. Apparently the agent thought a Thai national must have a round-trip (return) ticket on the same airline?

Given what happened to my wife, I can only imagine how much less likely a check-in agent would be to let a Thai national without a visa fly to Europe. I wouldn't want to risk being in that situation.

I'd suggest getting her a visa and if she has a job to go back to it's unlikely she would be rejected anyway.

She has a Uk visa approved already, she will fly into the uk and then out a few days later to Portugal..............well maybe

[7by7]

As the spouse of an EEA national travelling with or to join her EEA national spouse, she can apply at any embassy in the world.

Maybe forget about applying in Bangkok and apply in London once she is in the UK?

If time allows, of course.

[mgb]

@kannot

Did the Portuguese embassy deny in writing or was your wife only fobbed off.

Edited June 22, 2016 by mgb

[kannot]

@kannot

Did the Portuguese embassy deny in writing or was your wife only fobbed off.

Nothing in writing,She filled in the schengen form had biometric data taken yesterday asked to pay 2400 baht and then told it wont pass unless she has the ticket booked for hotel and flight from the UK to Portugal and to email him the details of these later ie today tomorrow etc.

I will be calling him this morning to point out the Eu rules, have also mailed him a copy of the Eu rule on this and will report back what he says.

Eu rules say she only needs to show passport, marriage certificate and proof of me being eu resident which they already have in my passport.

He also said marriage certificate must be registered in the Uk another load of rubbish as there is no mention of this in Eu law............all followed by "this is our rule"

Already mailed the eu commissioner in Bangkok with the mans contact details......I fly out Sunday, Wife follows in 17days.

Hes already seen she has a UK visa and her Uk ticket and mine (both of which arent necessary) for the Portuguese Visa

[kannot]

As the spouse of an EEA national travelling with or to join her EEA national spouse, she can apply at any embassy in the world.

Maybe forget about applying in Bangkok and apply in London once she is in the UK?

If time allows, of course.

Yes thanks I know abut this but the time wont be there to do this even though EU law says they must "fasttrack" her visa and with "no fee"

[Richard W]

He also said marriage certificate must be registered in the Uk another load of rubbish as there is no mention of this in Eu law............all followed by "this is our rule"

There seems to be a requirement that the marriage be valid in the law of the sponsor's home country, which is a bit tricky. The UK government is tries to use that rule to reject proxy marriages of non-EU and foreign EU citizens.

[kannot]

He also said marriage certificate must be registered in the Uk another load of rubbish as there is no mention of this in Eu law............all followed by "this is our rule"

There seems to be a requirement that the marriage be valid in the law of the sponsor's home country, which is a bit tricky. The UK government is tries to use that rule to reject proxy marriages of non-EU and foreign EU citizens.

seems to be?

I am a family member (spouse, child) of an EU/EEA citizen:

If the applicant is travelling to another Schengen member state then the one that your EU family member is a national of, and you are travelling together or the non EU/EEA national family member is travelling to join the EU/EEA national family member, then you are entitled to a FREE visa which should be granted swiftly (accelerated procedure) and with minimum hassle. Your application falls under directive 2004/38/EC regarding the Freedom of Movement. A minimum of documentation and requirements apply.

It's important to know who qualifies as a family member of an EU/EEA citizen though.

Who qualifies?:

The non-EU spouse, (grand)children or (grand)parents. And only If they will be travelling together with you, or joining you in another EU country then the country you are a citizen of. Your registered partner and extended family - siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, and so on - can ask the authorities in an EU country to officially recognise them as family members of an EU national. EU countries do not have to recognise them as your family members but they do at least have to consider the request.

Example: a German and his Thai spouse have to apply for a regular C type visa if they are applying for a stay in Germany. If they would go on holiday to Spain for instance, they would be able to apply for the EU/EEA family member visa.

Requirements:

A minimum of documentation and requirements apply: travel insurance is not required, hotel bookings are not required, transport bookings (flight) is not required etc. For a spouse the marriage certificate + possibly legalisation by the local ministry of foreign affairs to confirm it's a genuine document + official translation to a language that the embassy can read should be sufficient. Sadly not all embassies apply the Visa Code properly. There should be no need for hotel reservations, insurance or other such things. They may for instance ask that your marriage is registrated in the EU. That most certainly is not a requirement (the EU directive simply requires you to be genuinly married). It could be more efficient to cooperate with such silly demands but if you are unable or unwilling to do so due to cost or time constraints, you would be in your right to point out that the embassy is asking too much.

What is required:

- Show that the applicant (non EU) is first line family of an EU national: provide the marriage certificat (translated if need be, there should be no need to register a Thai marriage in the EU spouse his/her country).

- Provide passports of the both of you so they can ID you.

- Confirmation that the two of you will be traveling together or joining eachother in the member state: declaration by the EU spouse, optionally as extra evidence a reservation for transport to the EU.

[kannot]

They have replied to my e mail stating this which I think is incorrect as the eu ruling states you dont have to be married in the husbands home country.

the reason why you can't find on the Schengen visa law the need to register the marriage is due to basic fact that if you get married in Thailand, or anywhere else in the world, butyou don't register you marriage by the law of your home country you will still be single. Which means your "thai law wife" is not your wife by the, in this case, british law and that doesnt give her the right to have any of the spouse rights when it comes to visa.

[beano2274]

I had my Thai marriage certificate translated into English and stamped at the British Embassy, this was enough for the Germans. I even have it translated into German as an extra precaution and certified by one of their recommended translators.

[kannot]

I had my Thai marriage certificate translated into English and stamped at the British Embassy, this was enough for the Germans. I even have it translated into German as an extra precaution and certified by one of their recommended translators.

Yes we already have this but they are saying "no"

[mgb]

You could point to the visa handbook Part III

http://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/policies/borders/docs/c_2010_1620_en.pdf

and ask them if they recognise a decision of the EU commission.

If not you want a reason in writing.

[Donutz]

The Germans request to see legalisation by the UK embassy is questionable. Besides an embassy that places such a legalisation stamp does not acknowledge it's contents. You could get the embassy to legalize a newspaper or toiletpaper! So it's silly to request this. The EU embassy that does the request simply needs to be sure that the family relation is legal and genuine.

handbook (see Schengen FAQ):

"A Member State may require that the relevant documents are translated, notarised or legalised

where the original document is drawn up in a language that is not understood by the

authorities of the Member State concerned or if there are doubts as to the authenticity of the

document."

The Portugese are completely wrong. They must return the fee, not ask for travel and accomodation papers etc. And accept the maritial documents (which may be legalized by any EU embassy). Contact Solvit and forward a complaint to EU Home Affairs aswell. A mail to the embassy with CC to the EU Commission and/or EU representative in Thailand might be taken more seriously!

-JUST-CITIZENSHIP(at)ec.europa.eu (eu commission)

- http://eeas.europa.eu/delegations/thailand/about_us/contacts/index_en.htm (eu delegation bangkok)

Edited June 23, 2016 by Donutz

[kannot]

The Germans request to see legalisation by the UK embassy is questionable. Besides an embassy that places such a legalisation stamp does not acknowledge it's contents. You could get the embassy to legalize a newspaper or toiletpaper! So it's silly to request this. The EU embassy that does the request simply needs to be sure that the family relation is legal and genuine.

handbook (see Schengen FAQ):

"A Member State may require that the relevant documents are translated, notarised or legalised

where the original document is drawn up in a language that is not understood by the

authorities of the Member State concerned or if there are doubts as to the authenticity of the

document."

The Portugese are completely wrong. They must return the fee, not ask for travel and accomodation papers etc. And accept the maritial documents (which may be legalized by any EU embassy). Contact Solvit and forward a complaint to EU Home Affairs aswell. A mail to the embassy with CC to the EU Commission and/or EU representative in Thailand might be taken more seriously!

Thanks I have already mailed the EU Rep in Thailand.

The Portuguese embassy is saying this in their last reply

"if you dont register your marriage by the law of your european country the other person is not legally your husband or wife."

Yet The UKGOV website says this

Getting married abroad

Contact the local authorities in the country where you want to get married or enter into a civil partnership to find out what you need to do.

Your marriage or civil partnership should be recognised in the UK if you follow the correct process according to local law - you won’t need to register it in the UK.

https://www.gov.uk/marriage-abroad

[Donutz]

Thanks I have already mailed the EU Rep in Thailand.

The Portuguese embassy is saying this in their last reply

"if you dont register your marriage by the law of your european country the other person is not legally your husband or wife."

Lol, that is so pathetic that I had to laugh. If you married (at the townhall) in Thailand it is a legal marriage... Only question can be if it's a marriage of convience or not. Such a thing would be fraud and (besides national secuirty reason) the only thing they can declince a EU spouse visa over. As I and MGB refered to, show them the Directive 2004/38 and the Handbook. if they acknowledge those they must acknowledge that they are taking a piss with the contents. Forward the Portugese response to Solvit, EU Delegation Thailand and the EU Commission. Those can tell the Portugese that they are getting it all wrong. And hopefully setting things straight for applicants who apply after you. Good luck!

[kannot]

As a back up plan im calling the Italian embassy today in the Uk as we also plan a trip to Italy and shall go there first instead if needs be. I shall ask EXACTLY what documents they need and see if it should be only marriage cert and passports etc and check if they want to be stupid twits like the Portuguese embassy and insist on the illegal "uk marriage certificate"

Meanwhile no news form my friends at the Portuguese embassy.

[kannot]

UPDATE from Euro Advice Centre has been sent to the Portuguese Embassy Bangkok for their comment

Dear Madam,
Marriages validly contracted everywhere in the world must in principle be accepted for the purpose of the application of the EU free movement legislation. Moreover, under Portuguese national law, marriages between non-Portuguese that are contracted abroad in compliance with the local formalities, are recognised by Portugal without further requirements (Article 50 of the Portuguese Civil Code). Link to the Portuguese text: http://www.pgdlisboa.pt/leis/lei_mostra_articulado.php?artigo_id=775A0050&nid=775&tabela=leis&pagina=1&ficha=1&nversao=#artigo
In short, the Portuguese embassy cannot charge for your visa on the grounds that your marriage is not registered in the UK (Article 5 (2) of Directive 2004/38/EC and Article 4 (2) of Portuguese Law n.º 37/2006 of 9 August 206 that transposes the Directive in Portugal).They may ask you for notarization, legalization and translation of your marriage certificate if they do not understand the original language and/or if they doubt the authenticity of the document, but they cannot request (i) that it registered in the UK or elsewhere nor (ii) for further documents, such as, proof of accommodation, sufficient resources, an invitation letter, return ticket, etc).
We hope that the above information will of assistance to you.

Further to the reply to your enquiry nr. 199692 id and following your agreement on the enquiry form your case was forwarded to SOLVIT. This is an on-line problem solving network in which EU Member States work together to solve without legal proceedings problems caused by the misapplication of EU law by public authorities.

[kannot]

update currently the EU delegate for Thailand is investigating this, meanwhile the Italian Consulate in the uk says as my Wifes visa is only short term 6 months they cannot issue a schengen visa to her?????????? seems odd to me? heres what they said

As your wife has a C-VISIT visa to the UK she is considered a temporary visitor to the UK and would, therefore not be eligible to apply for a visa into Schengen until she obtains a longer UK visa. . She should apply for her Schengen Visa in her permanent place of residence (from Thailand)

[Heng]

Is ticket, hotel booking (paid), in hand the norm for Schengen visas?

[beano2274]

Is ticket, hotel booking (paid), in hand the norm for Schengen visas?

for normal visitors yes, for family members of EU Citizens it is not a requirement

[Donutz]

@Cannot good to hear that somebody ( EU delegation) is doing something. As for the Italians, they are wrong, that answer is only correct for regular applicants. Non-EU family is able to get the visa from any relevant embassy regardless of their visa status, your wife could even be illigally in a country and they would still need to process the visa request. Guess the staff in the UK needs a refreshing course on granting every facility etc. The Handbook, part 3 (on freedom of movement) would be a good start for them...

@Heng: the visa code requires a travel reservation (no full booking) and (if there is no host providing accomodation) a booking for accomodation. The visa code does not require that it is paid. However some embassies may insist on this, some may require you to show a fully paid booking after the visa has been granted, others may accept an unpaid booking made old fashionedly (ie refrushung booking.com and such), and yet others are fine with anything including unpaid bookings via internet sites (knowing that this is both usual -if not standard practise- in the modern world and people with not so good intentions could simply cancel the hotel anyway). Sadly the visa code is from a time were bookings for a accomodation were done via say a travel agency or on paper and not via the internet. This is why the rules are not explicit on this. In the new rules that have been drafted but not yet passed an internet booking via the known sites will do just fine. So IMHO an embassy insisting on a fully paid booking is simply being old fashioned and enjoying red tape too much!!

[Heng]

Is ticket, hotel booking (paid), in hand the norm for Schengen visas?

for normal visitors yes, for family members of EU Citizens it is not a requirement

cool thanks.

[mgb]

update currently the EU delegate for Thailand is investigating this, meanwhile the Italian Consulate in the uk says as my Wifes visa is only short term 6 months they cannot issue a schengen visa to her?????????? seems odd to me? heres what they said

As your wife has a C-VISIT visa to the UK she is considered a temporary visitor to the UK and would, therefore not be eligible to apply for a visa into Schengen until she obtains a longer UK visa. . She should apply for her Schengen Visa in her permanent place of residence (from Thailand)

Point to the visa handbook C_2010_1620 part III and ask them where this clause is written as precondition for a visa of the family member of a eu citizen.

[kannot]

@Cannot good to hear that somebody ( EU delegation) is doing something. As for the Italians, they are wrong, that answer is only correct for regular applicants. Non-EU family is able to get the visa from any relevant embassy regardless of their visa status, your wife could even be illigally in a country and they would still need to process the visa request. Guess the staff in the UK needs a refreshing course on granting every facility etc. The Handbook, part 3 (on freedom of movement) would be a good start for them...

@Heng: the visa code requires a travel reservation (no full booking) and (if there is no host providing accomodation) a booking for accomodation. The visa code does not require that it is paid. However some embassies may insist on this, some may require you to show a fully paid booking after the visa has been granted, others may accept an unpaid booking made old fashionedly (ie refrushung booking.com and such), and yet others are fine with anything including unpaid bookings via internet sites (knowing that this is both usual -if not standard practise- in the modern world and people with not so good intentions could simply cancel the hotel anyway). Sadly the visa code is from a time were bookings for a accomodation were done via say a travel agency or on paper and not via the internet. This is why the rules are not explicit on this. In the new rules that have been drafted but not yet passed an internet booking via the known sites will do just fine. So IMHO an embassy insisting on a fully paid booking is simply being old fashioned and enjoying red tape too much!!

3 different consulates/embassies in 2 countries and all have a wealth of no idea on the eu rules, Portuguese embassy Bangkok , Italian Embassy London told me yesterday she can "only apply in her own country" followed by Edinburgh Consulate saying she cannot apply as her UK visa is only a short term visa for 6 months.

Its painfully obvious none of them are following the EU rules.

Am awaiting the outcome now of the EU delegate in Thailand but as it stands we are not going to Italy or Portugal.............freedom of movement..........its a JOKE.

[kannot]

So the Edinburgh Italian consulate points me to the London Embassy who state this load of crap!! You see they have absolutely NO IDEA on the rules....why would a UK resident even need a Schengen visa to visit Europe with its open borders?

Dear Sir,

Your wife should have to request a Schengen Visa in her country of residency. We only give visa to tresident in the UK.

Kind regards,

Visa office

[JLCrab]

Well I know nothing of Schengen visas but just to note that in 2011, Portugal and Thailand celebrated 500 years of diplomatic relations.