So what did the Brexit supporters gain?

[Jip99]

I think that a 6 month breathing space in which to cease hostilities is a bl00dy good idea. I am not sure that some of your fellow Remainers on Thai Visa have the ability to follow your example but, here's hoping.

In 6 months time one of us can be smug and the will have to learn to accept defeat - by then you have got used to the latter...

I'm perfectly OK with six months but others are less so, and if in six months the economy is looking decent I'll know I can rely on the Thai Visa clan to rub my nose in that fact, repeatedly. But if god forbid it is not, I will simply remind you, politely, that much of the alleged scaremongering was in fact, fact, so best start making up your excuses now.

Presumably the cease-fire starts at Midnight ?

It just gives me time to remind you that I have a copy of your prediction that Sterling would slump by 20%.

Obviously if the GBP/THB rate is anything over 40, the reminder will be on me!

You will need to post a link to that "prediction" because I don't believe any such thing exists plus we are now all well aware of your propensity to tell, ahem, porkies!

You will understand that I would not have made reference to that 20% reduction if I did not genuinely believe it came from you. There are many of your posts that I respect and I recall at the time I sat up and took notice of the figure - because it was double the figure I expected to see after Brexit.

I fully accept responsibility to provide supporting evidence for such comments. Having looked through earlier threads I regret to say I cannot find the specific post that I had in mind. I did see you copy a link from Goldman Sachs predicting a 20% fall but I also found your link to this article refuting that:-

https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/exchange-rate-forecasts/4361-ebury-forecast-for-the-pound-in-event-of-brexit

I found this:-

And then again there's the life of the Brit. expat in Thailand three five and ten years on, the stock market having been badly hit and drawdown pensions reduced to the level of a poor annuity, the exchange rate against the baht at 42 and the price of UK property out of the reach of most returning expats, yum, a work of fiction or a foreseen reality or don't we know/really care.

In the absence of me finding an exact reference to you predicting Sterling dropping 20% I am happy to offer an unreserved apology for my comment.

[Khun Han]

^ And you've quoted another of the myriad examples of Project Fear that was (and still is) going on: another claim of long-term damage from brexit. But chiang mai's doing his level best to brush over this.

Why don't you just come clean chiang mai, and admit that the remain campaign was and still is aggressively dishonest about this?

And the claim that the remain campaign is over is also a nonsense. They're still challenging brexit on every front they can, including legal ones.

Edited July 24, 2016 by Khun Han

[chiang mai]

^ And you've quoted another of the myriad examples of Project Fear that was (and still is) going on: another claim of long-term damage from brexit. But chiang mai's doing his level best to brush over this.

Why don't you just come clean chiang mai, and admit that the remain campaign was and still is aggressively dishonest about this?

And the claim that the remain campaign is over is also a nonsense. They're still challenging brexit on every front they can, including legal ones.

Well I don't know about anybody else's Remain project but mine is over and I see absolutely no reason, hand on heart, why everybody else's shouldn't be also. At the risk of sounding rude, which is not my intent, perhaps there's some paranoia involved here?

As for long term damage: I do believe that the UK economy will fall further into disrepair and that the Pound will depreciate further, economists and respected voices operating in this sector agree also, I further believe that both those things will continue to exist for some time, years as I said earlier. I consider all of that to be long term damage, if others do not they must come up with their own terminology, medium term perhaps? As stated frequently, over time all of this will repair, the only real issue between us is how long that process will take, I say around seven years or so.

[Mark123456]

The Brexit campaign used and still clings to the campaign slogan 'Project Fear' and 'Scaremongering' as derogatory terms to characterise the Remain position.

This deserves some examination.

Did the Remain campaign use projections of negative impacts of Brexit and if so what were they, where they 'Scaremongering', can they be described as instilling 'Fear'?

Yes Remain did use a raft of projected negative impacts for Brexit, these were almost entirely economic parameters, but also included loss of access to markets, loss of political influence on the world stage.

The economic projections were, for the most part, rooted in formal/structured economic forecasts which we can argue about the accuracy of and when/if these economic outcomes have/will come to fruition. Some of the worst projected outcomes where not plausible, but were recognised as such by the organisations producing the studies, some of the forecasts have already been demonstrated to be correct - The drop in the value of sterling, decreasing investment confidence, rise in UK profit warnings &c.,

I don't think even the most ardent Brexit supporter will state there are no negative impacts from Brexit (though again, they may argue the depth and time scale of those impacts).

The middle ground (excluding the extremes of both sides of the Referendum debate) will almost certainly agree its too early yet to judge the outcome.

The lack of access to markets, and loss of political weight is yet to play out. But loss of control over European decisions is an absolute outcome of Brexit, and nobody in the Brexit camp has explained how Brexit's core aims shall be achieved in the face of categorical statements from the EU, Germany, France and others that the UK shall not be given tariff free access to EU markets without accepting EU laws, regulations and the free movement of people.

So once again too early to judge on that one (But no clear way forward in sight).

Is the charge of 'Scaremongering' and the use of 'Fear' (Project Fear) justified?

Well it seems that on the extremes of the Remain support it might be, a few people did cling and still do cling to only the worst case scenarios.

But, if we accept its too early to judge the economic outcomes, then we must accept its too early to dismiss the worst projections - So the jury is still out.

'Fear' and 'Scaremongering' was used in the Referendum campaigns and its impact has been measured and can be seen. This however is not the Remain's 'Project Fear' or Remain's 'Scaremongering', but that of the Brexit campaign which shamelessly used 'Fear' and 'Scaremongering' when they integrated racism and xenophobia into the Brexit campaign.

'Fear', 'Scaremongering' is at the core of the xenophobia and racism employed by the Brexit campaign and is still visible amongst Brexit supporters and the comments they make.

The hypocrisy of such xenophobia and racism coming from British migrants to another country is seemingly lost in the eagerness to express the bigotry to which the Brexit campaign has given a voice and which the Brexit campaign has legitimised.

The irony is that Brexit, predicated to such a large extent on 'Fear', 'Scaremongering', xenophobia and racism characterises the Remain campaign as 'Project Fear'.

It would be laughable if it was not so cynical and, as history tells us, dangerous.

I agree with much of the above - we need much longer time to judge the impact. Many of those factors have not yet been negotiated but any judgement that causes either side to say "I told you so" is as futile as it is pathetic. We are where we are and whether that suits your own position is less important than working together positively for the future of the UK. Neither side should harp back to the pre-vote stage.

Cameron and the 'money men' totally misjudged the mood of the British people. Cynicism of politicians caused many to disbelieve the propaganda campaign and it was easy to see why much was tagged as 'Project Fear'. This belief has been justified when you see the likes of the IMF retracting earlier prediction and the likes of HSBC, Barclays NOT moving staff or HQ's as they threatened to do. Brits don't like being poked with a stick and I think that approach back-fired on Remain. As you suggest, all that is now history and where we go from here is what matters.

I whole-heartedly agree that xenophobia and racism has no place in modern. There is no doubt that extremists (on either side) will latch onto to such situations to justify their own cause and agenda - thankfully the worst of the extremists only represent a small minority.

Personally, I think that If we take away the extremes on either side then the middle ground is not that far from either of our beliefs.

As a Kiwi-born Australian now living in Thailand and watching anxiously from afar, I would like to make the following observations:

(1) Given that the Brits have decided to leave the club, slamming the door behind, rather than continuing to work to improve the club, I think we should not forget the rest of Europe - left in a doldrums of its own making, but which started out as a brave & good idea tracing its origins back to the early 50s, post WW2. The removal of British initiative and energy and pragmatism from the European mix seems to me infinitely sad.

(2) While, if I were a Brit, I would no doubt have voted to remain a member of the club, we should not neglect the real possibility that, after some years of upheaval and difficulty, it could - like, perhaps, Scottish independence - turn out the best thing, full of opportunities, for whatever remains of Britain. But only if the Brits collectively get their act together & stop whining. And not for Europe, alas, unless the Europeans learn some fundamental lessons from all of this. And not for NATO, with a decreasingly engaged USofA increasingly sidelined, and the Russians as trustworthy as ever.

(3) The Western world's ability to defend itself and to sell itself as a model for the rest of the world, is looking depressingly reduced all round. Meantime, the rise of China continues, albeit increasingly wobbly in its economics. The future is less and less predictable.

What's NATO got to do with it?

[mfd101]

The Brexit campaign used and still clings to the campaign slogan 'Project Fear' and 'Scaremongering' as derogatory terms to characterise the Remain position.

This deserves some examination.

Did the Remain campaign use projections of negative impacts of Brexit and if so what were they, where they 'Scaremongering', can they be described as instilling 'Fear'?

Yes Remain did use a raft of projected negative impacts for Brexit, these were almost entirely economic parameters, but also included loss of access to markets, loss of political influence on the world stage.

The economic projections were, for the most part, rooted in formal/structured economic forecasts which we can argue about the accuracy of and when/if these economic outcomes have/will come to fruition. Some of the worst projected outcomes where not plausible, but were recognised as such by the organisations producing the studies, some of the forecasts have already been demonstrated to be correct - The drop in the value of sterling, decreasing investment confidence, rise in UK profit warnings &c.,

I don't think even the most ardent Brexit supporter will state there are no negative impacts from Brexit (though again, they may argue the depth and time scale of those impacts).

The middle ground (excluding the extremes of both sides of the Referendum debate) will almost certainly agree its too early yet to judge the outcome.

The lack of access to markets, and loss of political weight is yet to play out. But loss of control over European decisions is an absolute outcome of Brexit, and nobody in the Brexit camp has explained how Brexit's core aims shall be achieved in the face of categorical statements from the EU, Germany, France and others that the UK shall not be given tariff free access to EU markets without accepting EU laws, regulations and the free movement of people.

So once again too early to judge on that one (But no clear way forward in sight).

Is the charge of 'Scaremongering' and the use of 'Fear' (Project Fear) justified?

Well it seems that on the extremes of the Remain support it might be, a few people did cling and still do cling to only the worst case scenarios.

But, if we accept its too early to judge the economic outcomes, then we must accept its too early to dismiss the worst projections - So the jury is still out.

'Fear' and 'Scaremongering' was used in the Referendum campaigns and its impact has been measured and can be seen. This however is not the Remain's 'Project Fear' or Remain's 'Scaremongering', but that of the Brexit campaign which shamelessly used 'Fear' and 'Scaremongering' when they integrated racism and xenophobia into the Brexit campaign.

'Fear', 'Scaremongering' is at the core of the xenophobia and racism employed by the Brexit campaign and is still visible amongst Brexit supporters and the comments they make.

The hypocrisy of such xenophobia and racism coming from British migrants to another country is seemingly lost in the eagerness to express the bigotry to which the Brexit campaign has given a voice and which the Brexit campaign has legitimised.

The irony is that Brexit, predicated to such a large extent on 'Fear', 'Scaremongering', xenophobia and racism characterises the Remain campaign as 'Project Fear'.

It would be laughable if it was not so cynical and, as history tells us, dangerous.

I agree with much of the above - we need much longer time to judge the impact. Many of those factors have not yet been negotiated but any judgement that causes either side to say "I told you so" is as futile as it is pathetic. We are where we are and whether that suits your own position is less important than working together positively for the future of the UK. Neither side should harp back to the pre-vote stage.

Cameron and the 'money men' totally misjudged the mood of the British people. Cynicism of politicians caused many to disbelieve the propaganda campaign and it was easy to see why much was tagged as 'Project Fear'. This belief has been justified when you see the likes of the IMF retracting earlier prediction and the likes of HSBC, Barclays NOT moving staff or HQ's as they threatened to do. Brits don't like being poked with a stick and I think that approach back-fired on Remain. As you suggest, all that is now history and where we go from here is what matters.

I whole-heartedly agree that xenophobia and racism has no place in modern. There is no doubt that extremists (on either side) will latch onto to such situations to justify their own cause and agenda - thankfully the worst of the extremists only represent a small minority.

Personally, I think that If we take away the extremes on either side then the middle ground is not that far from either of our beliefs.

As a Kiwi-born Australian now living in Thailand and watching anxiously from afar, I would like to make the following observations:

(1) Given that the Brits have decided to leave the club, slamming the door behind, rather than continuing to work to improve the club, I think we should not forget the rest of Europe - left in a doldrums of its own making, but which started out as a brave & good idea tracing its origins back to the early 50s, post WW2. The removal of British initiative and energy and pragmatism from the European mix seems to me infinitely sad.

(2) While, if I were a Brit, I would no doubt have voted to remain a member of the club, we should not neglect the real possibility that, after some years of upheaval and difficulty, it could - like, perhaps, Scottish independence - turn out the best thing, full of opportunities, for whatever remains of Britain. But only if the Brits collectively get their act together & stop whining. And not for Europe, alas, unless the Europeans learn some fundamental lessons from all of this. And not for NATO, with a decreasingly engaged USofA increasingly sidelined, and the Russians as trustworthy as ever.

(3) The Western world's ability to defend itself and to sell itself as a model for the rest of the world, is looking depressingly reduced all round. Meantime, the rise of China continues, albeit increasingly wobbly in its economics. The future is less and less predictable.

What's NATO got to do with it?

You weaken Europe economically, culturally & cohesionwise, you weaken NATO. You do the same to Britain & you weaken NATO.

[Mark123456]

I doubt they are going to cut NATO's budget as a result of the vote and culturally, Britain has never really been that close to the Continentals. It looks likely we will remain part of the single market at this point in time, so the fallout may be rather less dramatic than many are predicting. At least, going by noises being made by EU officials that is. I think Francois Hollande is the only one being a dick.

Edited July 24, 2016 by Mark123456

[Jip99]

I doubt they are going to cut NATO's budget as a result of the vote and culturally, Britain has never really been that close to the Continentals. It looks likely we will remain part of the single market at this point in time, so the fallout may be rather less dramatic than many are predicting. At least, going by noises being made by EU officials that is. I think Francois Hollande is the only one being a dick.

To be fair, Hollande was a dick before Brexit!

[nong38]

I doubt they are going to cut NATO's budget as a result of the vote and culturally, Britain has never really been that close to the Continentals. It looks likely we will remain part of the single market at this point in time, so the fallout may be rather less dramatic than many are predicting. At least, going by noises being made by EU officials that is. I think Francois Hollande is the only one being a dick.

To be fair, Hollande was a dick before Brexit!

And in true French tradition, one that is vertically challenged as well as, in his case, in the void between the ears where the French Dairy Farmers live.

Edited July 24, 2016 by nong38

[GuestHouse]

What's NATO got to do with it?

NATO comes into the equation when we step back and view the USA's positioning with respect to funding NATO and providing military security for Europe.

Rather oddly, both sides of the political spectrum in the US are asking why the US tax payer should continue to fund such a large part of the NATO budget when the EU is capable of paying more than it currently does.

Perhaps more of a concern is the question being asked in the US political and military spheres 'Is it acceptable for the US to provide troops to Europe when Europe is capable of proving its own troops'. This latter question arises from US commitments elsewhere in the world, the rise of China and a refocussing of the US to the Asia and the fact that it is simply becoming a harder sell to the US public that US servicemen and women should be required (at least on paper) to serve in a war protecting Europeans - many of whom (and especially Brits) are openly hostile to the US.

It comes under the heading - you can afford to provide your own military security.

The EU response to this has been to examine the possibilities of a European Military Command to replace some, but possibly all, of the support Europe currently receives from the US.

If the UK leaves Europe then this naturally has an impact of the decisions being made with respect to European military security.

It also raises a question, if the US does indeed withdraw or reduce its commitment to NATO, where will the UK find a replacement security partner?

There was clearly not enough space on the referendum ballot paper to fit that consideration in, but be assured these questions will not go away.

[Ricardo]

I doubt they are going to cut NATO's budget as a result of the vote and culturally, Britain has never really been that close to the Continentals. It looks likely we will remain part of the single market at this point in time, so the fallout may be rather less dramatic than many are predicting. At least, going by noises being made by EU officials that is. I think Francois Hollande is the only one being a dick.

"culturally, Britain has never really been that close to the Continentals"

Not sure how true that is ... for starters, we were part of the Roman Empire, so our language shares common-roots with other European ones, also the Angles & Saxons were only a couple of the many waves of immigrants, who have contributed to the blend which is British ?

We all drink coffee more than tea now, we eat croissants & pizza, lasagna & spaghetti, French-bread-sticks with our fromage, the traditional 'Grand Tour' of European-culture is now the shared-objective of millions of British summer-holiday-makers where we meet the Germans & French & Italians & Greeks ?

We drive Renaults & VWs, we learn French (or German or Spanish) in school, we shop at Lidl and Aldi for salami & edam & rye-bread, I think European-culture has been creeping-up on us ! And we've given them a lot of our own culture back, all those school exchange-visits in both directions, the French enjoy 'le week-end' and the Germans laugh at Mr Bean !

And why ever not, we're European as well as British, all purely in my own humble opinion.

[GuestHouse]

I doubt they are going to cut NATO's budget as a result of the vote and culturally, Britain has never really been that close to the Continentals. It looks likely we will remain part of the single market at this point in time, so the fallout may be rather less dramatic than many are predicting. At least, going by noises being made by EU officials that is. I think Francois Hollande is the only one being a dick.

"culturally, Britain has never really been that close to the Continentals"

Not sure how true that is ... for starters, we were part of the Roman Empire, so our language shares common-roots with other European ones, also the Angles & Saxons were only a couple of the many waves of immigrants, who have contributed to the blend which is British ?

We all drink coffee more than tea now, we eat croissants & pizza, lasagna & spaghetti, French-bread-sticks with our fromage, the traditional 'Grand Tour' of European-culture is now the shared-objective of millions of British summer-holiday-makers where we meet the Germans & French & Italians & Greeks ?

We drive Renaults & VWs, we learn French (or German or Spanish) in school, we shop at Lidl and Aldi for salami & edam & rye-bread, I think European-culture has been creeping-up on us ! And we've given them a lot of our own culture back, all those school exchange-visits in both directions, the French enjoy 'le week-end' and the Germans laugh at Mr Bean !

And why ever not, we're European as well as British, all purely in my own humble opinion.

In addition to which we share judea-christian religious history, very specifically Catholicism and (in Norther Europe) share the history and philosophy arising from the reformation. Across the whole of Europe the renascence re-established and built up philosophical, political, medical and scientific knowledge from ancient Greece and Rome, perhaps most importantly from Lucretius 'De rarum natura' and in no small part from Ancient Greek philosophy, science and medical knowledge pass back to Europe from the Islamic word. All that finished off nicely with the impacts of Bohemianism on modern European society and the shared experience of two world wars. And let's not forget the group that have done so very much to develop the distinct pan-European history, literature, science, music, politics, art, law and indeed financial institutions that oiled the rebirth and growth of Europe, the European Jews.

[i claudius]

All of the above and still the French hate us .

[Mark123456]

I doubt they are going to cut NATO's budget as a result of the vote and culturally, Britain has never really been that close to the Continentals. It looks likely we will remain part of the single market at this point in time, so the fallout may be rather less dramatic than many are predicting. At least, going by noises being made by EU officials that is. I think Francois Hollande is the only one being a dick.

"culturally, Britain has never really been that close to the Continentals"

Not sure how true that is ... for starters, we were part of the Roman Empire, so our language shares common-roots with other European ones, also the Angles & Saxons were only a couple of the many waves of immigrants, who have contributed to the blend which is British ?

We all drink coffee more than tea now, we eat croissants & pizza, lasagna & spaghetti, French-bread-sticks with our fromage, the traditional 'Grand Tour' of European-culture is now the shared-objective of millions of British summer-holiday-makers where we meet the Germans & French & Italians & Greeks ?

We drive Renaults & VWs, we learn French (or German or Spanish) in school, we shop at Lidl and Aldi for salami & edam & rye-bread, I think European-culture has been creeping-up on us ! And we've given them a lot of our own culture back, all those school exchange-visits in both directions, the French enjoy 'le week-end' and the Germans laugh at Mr Bean !

And why ever not, we're European as well as British, all purely in my own humble opinion.

Putting all that to one side for a moment, I think it's clear that we have a slightly different outlook on life to our Continental cousins and always have done. Eating foreign food and driving foreign cars does not make one culturally compatible. If it did, you could argue that we are culturally very similar to Indians, Japanese and Chinese people , but we're not are we?

The point I was trying to make was that we have always had our differences but that hasn't prevented our military alliance post WWII and I doubt very much that it will do now.

Regarding Aldi and Lidl, I've never shopped at either - Don't they cater mainly to shoppers on a tight budget?

Edited July 25, 2016 by Mark123456

[sandyf]

^ And you've quoted another of the myriad examples of Project Fear that was (and still is) going on: another claim of long-term damage from brexit. But chiang mai's doing his level best to brush over this.

Why don't you just come clean chiang mai, and admit that the remain campaign was and still is aggressively dishonest about this?

And the claim that the remain campaign is over is also a nonsense. They're still challenging brexit on every front they can, including legal ones.

Well I don't know about anybody else's Remain project but mine is over and I see absolutely no reason, hand on heart, why everybody else's shouldn't be also. At the risk of sounding rude, which is not my intent, perhaps there's some paranoia involved here?

As for long term damage: I do believe that the UK economy will fall further into disrepair and that the Pound will depreciate further, economists and respected voices operating in this sector agree also, I further believe that both those things will continue to exist for some time, years as I said earlier. I consider all of that to be long term damage, if others do not they must come up with their own terminology, medium term perhaps? As stated frequently, over time all of this will repair, the only real issue between us is how long that process will take, I say around seven years or so.

Any residual remain campaign is being promoted by the brexiteers in the mistaken view that they have actually won something. Cameron made a big mistake in not specifying a minimum majority, a narrow result was always going to be controversial, a bit like winning a football match on penalties. When the Gibraltar results came in, Nigel Farage was already talking about a second referendum, changed his tune by the morning, then it was irreversible.

The real legal challenges is not about the result, but about who has the authority to invoke Article 50. David Cameron said it was the responsibility of the Prime Minister but Article 50 says it will be in line with the member states own constitution. Who is right? - the courts will decide if it is up to the PM or a parliamentary vote.

We are all perfectly aware that divorce is inevitable and that we will have to accept a new way of life but anyone who thinks that people forced into an unsatisfactory way of life are not going to voice their concerns are delusional. That has being going on since the year dot.

The bomb has gone off and the only agenda on the table now should be to minimise the fallout, something that is undoubtedly going to leave some people feeling short changed.

Phillip Hammond has kicked the ball which should please many.

Chancellor Philip Hammond has begun discussions with China on an ambitious free trade deal which could see greater access for major Chinese banks and businesses to the UK economy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36877573

[GuestHouse]

All of the above and still the French hate us .

We have evidence here on TVF of British animosity towards the French, we can hardly trust the same sources for opinions of the French on the British.

[Mark123456]

All of the above and still the French hate us .

We have evidence here on TVF of British animosity towards the French, we can hardly trust the same sources for opinions of the French on the British.

We fought the French for centuries, there's bound to be some residual 'friendly hostility' on both sides. I think you need to be British to understand the lighthearted nature of i claudius's post Edited July 25, 2016 by Mark123456

[Mark123456]

I doubt they are going to cut NATO's budget as a result of the vote and culturally, Britain has never really been that close to the Continentals. It looks likely we will remain part of the single market at this point in time, so the fallout may be rather less dramatic than many are predicting. At least, going by noises being made by EU officials that is. I think Francois Hollande is the only one being a dick.

"culturally, Britain has never really been that close to the Continentals"

Not sure how true that is ... for starters, we were part of the Roman Empire, so our language shares common-roots with other European ones, also the Angles & Saxons were only a couple of the many waves of immigrants, who have contributed to the blend which is British ?

We all drink coffee more than tea now, we eat croissants & pizza, lasagna & spaghetti, French-bread-sticks with our fromage, the traditional 'Grand Tour' of European-culture is now the shared-objective of millions of British summer-holiday-makers where we meet the Germans & French & Italians & Greeks ?

We drive Renaults & VWs, we learn French (or German or Spanish) in school, we shop at Lidl and Aldi for salami & edam & rye-bread, I think European-culture has been creeping-up on us ! And we've given them a lot of our own culture back, all those school exchange-visits in both directions, the French enjoy 'le week-end' and the Germans laugh at Mr Bean !

And why ever not, we're European as well as British, all purely in my own humble opinion.

I should probably have been clearer in my post - over the last few hundred years, the British and Continental outlook on life has been markedly different. Our shared genes has little to do with the matter - you could apply the same argument to the USA but their culture differs significantly from that of their British and mainland European forefathers.

[GuestHouse]

End of muslims flooding into Britain and no longer dictated to by EC.

Neither of these will come to an end as a result of Brexit.

[GuestHouse]

I doubt they are going to cut NATO's budget as a result of the vote and culturally, Britain has never really been that close to the Continentals. It looks likely we will remain part of the single market at this point in time, so the fallout may be rather less dramatic than many are predicting. At least, going by noises being made by EU officials that is. I think Francois Hollande is the only one being a dick.

"culturally, Britain has never really been that close to the Continentals"

Not sure how true that is ... for starters, we were part of the Roman Empire, so our language shares common-roots with other European ones, also the Angles & Saxons were only a couple of the many waves of immigrants, who have contributed to the blend which is British ?

We all drink coffee more than tea now, we eat croissants & pizza, lasagna & spaghetti, French-bread-sticks with our fromage, the traditional 'Grand Tour' of European-culture is now the shared-objective of millions of British summer-holiday-makers where we meet the Germans & French & Italians & Greeks ?

We drive Renaults & VWs, we learn French (or German or Spanish) in school, we shop at Lidl and Aldi for salami & edam & rye-bread, I think European-culture has been creeping-up on us ! And we've given them a lot of our own culture back, all those school exchange-visits in both directions, the French enjoy 'le week-end' and the Germans laugh at Mr Bean !

And why ever not, we're European as well as British, all purely in my own humble opinion.

I should probably have been clearer in my post - over the last few hundred years, the British and Continental outlook on life has been markedly different. Our shared genes has little to do with the matter - you could apply the same argument to the USA but their culture differs significantly from that of their British and mainland European forefathers.

Having lived, worked and studied in mainland Europe for a number of years, I compare my experience with my life in the UK and contrast these experience with my time spent living and working in Asia, the Middle East and US.

From personal experience I am of the opinion the similarities between the UK and Europe are as clear as the striking difference between the UK/Europe and the other places I have lived and worked.

Edited July 25, 2016 by GuestHouse

[Mark123456]

So you believe that the German, French, Spanish, Italian, and British people, on the whole, share similar opinions on life in general and on the world outside Europe?

[GuestHouse]

So you believe that the German, French, Spanish, Italian, and British people, on the whole, share similar opinions on life in general and on the world outside Europe?

I believe we share a common cultural references and numurous comminalities with respect to how we organise our socities.

Hardly a matter of opinion given rafts of evidence littered across our history, politics, laws, social structures, art, litterature, language ..... &c.,

[sandyf]

On the one hand -

"Theresa May has said the UK's exit from the European Union "must work for Northern Ireland" ahead of her first visit since becoming prime minister."

"When she was home secretary, Mrs May warned it was "inconceivable" that border arrangements with the Republic of Ireland would be unchanged by a Brexit vote."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-36877948

And then on the other -

"There "will not be a hard border" on the island of Ireland in the wake of the UK's withdrawal from the EU, the taoiseach (prime minister) has said.

Enda Kenny was speaking at a specially convened meeting of the British-Irish Council (BIC) to discuss the implications of Brexit on Friday.

He said: "We do not want to see a European border internally on the island of Ireland.

"There will not be a hard border from Dundalk to Derry."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-36867886

[Ricardo]

Regarding Aldi and Lidl, I've never shopped at either - Don't they cater mainly to shoppers on a tight budget?

I believe the cheap-supermarkets have several-to-10% of the UK-market, and they're excellent for continental food-products, worth giving them a try !

[dageurreotype]

End of muslims flooding into Britain and no longer dictated to by EC.

What a disgusting use of words and comment!

I would like to ask, given the ever increasing attacks from MUSLIM migrants across the continent exactly why you and your mealy mouthed 'likers' find DUS comment 'disgusting'?

[Khun Han]

I doubt they are going to cut NATO's budget as a result of the vote and culturally, Britain has never really been that close to the Continentals. It looks likely we will remain part of the single market at this point in time, so the fallout may be rather less dramatic than many are predicting. At least, going by noises being made by EU officials that is. I think Francois Hollande is the only one being a dick.

"culturally, Britain has never really been that close to the Continentals"

Not sure how true that is ... for starters, we were part of the Roman Empire, so our language shares common-roots with other European ones, also the Angles & Saxons were only a couple of the many waves of immigrants, who have contributed to the blend which is British ?

We all drink coffee more than tea now, we eat croissants & pizza, lasagna & spaghetti, French-bread-sticks with our fromage, the traditional 'Grand Tour' of European-culture is now the shared-objective of millions of British summer-holiday-makers where we meet the Germans & French & Italians & Greeks ?

We drive Renaults & VWs, we learn French (or German or Spanish) in school, we shop at Lidl and Aldi for salami & edam & rye-bread, I think European-culture has been creeping-up on us ! And we've given them a lot of our own culture back, all those school exchange-visits in both directions, the French enjoy 'le week-end' and the Germans laugh at Mr Bean !

And why ever not, we're European as well as British, all purely in my own humble opinion.

"We all drink coffee more than tea now"

Speak for yourself .

[elliss]

As a 27 year old Brit, the future of Britain is mine.

Except a load of poorly educated, middle aged racists have made the future oh so more sketchy.

Well done.

As one of the few young Brits on this forum, I feel for you. All the news reports that I have seen indicate that young Brits like yourself voted overwhelmingly to remain. It's the older folks who voted in the other direction. The thing is, it's the young who's going to have to deal with the fallout for much longer. It just doesn't seem fair.

The trouble is , the older poorly educated folk remember when britain was, GREAT BRITAIN. We had well paid jobs , low unemployment , and good company pensions schemes, i only have two company pensions, [uneducated]

plus my taxable goverment pension, sob sob.

We joined the EU, which consisted of like minded wealthy countries , with good intentions of mutual benefit .

Then it all went pear shape , EU ,was flooded with free takers , not working , to contribute , we had enough of our own.

Social Secuity , payed for every thing . Until we run out of funds and now have to borrow , sounds familiar ?.

I do feel for , the young Brits who strive to achieve , My advice get quality qualifications , and then leave UK.

Doubt if you will ever have any Pensions .

PS, in our out ?, us older folk , do not give a M,,,,,,s , dont care . 555

Edited July 25, 2016 by elliss

[cumgranosalum]

As a 27 year old Brit, the future of Britain is mine.

Except a load of poorly educated, middle aged racists have made the future oh so more sketchy.

Well done.

As one of the few young Brits on this forum, I feel for you. All the news reports that I have seen indicate that young Brits like yourself voted overwhelmingly to remain. It's the older folks who voted in the other direction. The thing is, it's the young who's going to have to deal with the fallout for much longer. It just doesn't seem fair.

The trouble is , the older poorly educated folk remember when britain was, GREAT BRITAIN. We had well paid jobs , low unemployment , and good company pensions schemes, i only have two company pensions, [uneducated]

plus my taxable goverment pension, sob sob.

We joined the EU, which consisted of like minded wealthy countries , with good intentions of mutual benefit .

Then it all went pear shape , EU ,was flooded with free takers , not working , to contribute , we had enough of our own.

Social Secuity , payed for every thing . Until we run out of funds and now have to borrow , sounds familiar ?.

I do feel for , the young Brits who strive to achieve , My advice get quality qualifications , and then leave UK.

Doubt if you will ever have any Pensions .

PS, in our out ?, us older folk , do not give a M,,,,,,s , dont care . 555

There is a well-known psychology-described perception condition where people look back at a certain era i8n their lives as a "golden age" - this correlates quite precisely with the ages around 18 to 30 9e.g your 20s)- it is a psychological perception that has little to do with reality; this is why so many people looked back on their experiences in WW2 as a "great period" in their lives as it coincides with that age period.

You can see clearly this kind of perception of the past in many of the posters on this thread - especially amongst Brexiteers..

This is not a hypothesis it is and established theory and well-known to many politicians who use it to their advantage. take for instance the current Trump slogan "make America great again" - without the word "again" it loses its attraction.

Of course a cursory glance at reality will dispel a lot of those misconceptions.

[Jip99]

End of muslims flooding into Britain and no longer dictated to by EC.

Neither of these will come to an end as a result of Brexit.

1 out of 2 anyway.

[Khun Han]

End of muslims flooding into Britain and no longer dictated to by EC.

Neither of these will come to an end as a result of Brexit.

Care to put a peg in the ground and tell us which one you believe will be delivered by Brexit?

1 out of 2 anyway.

Germany can dream.....

[sandyf]

Would leaving the EU allow the UK to spend more money on the NHS?

A bit. Vote Leave argues that NHS underfunding could be eased by ending our “£350m-a-week” EU budget contribution – enough, it claims, to build a new hospital every week. It said: “We will be able to spend our money on our priorities like the NHS.“ Gisela Stuart, the Labour MP and group’s vice chair, said: ”I'd rather that we control how to spend that money, and if I had that control I would spend it on the NHS.” Boris Johnson, the former Mayor of London, has said that Brexit would reduce waiting times at accident and emergency units.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/will-brexit-save-taxpayers-money-nhs-eu-referendum-vote-leave-a7049501.html

NHS consultant paid £375,000 in overtime

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-36898881

Edited July 27, 2016 by sandyf