So what did the Brexit supporters gain?

[AlexRich]

30 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Wrong again, WTO access may well be part of the exit arrangement. The UK must re establish its legal position within the WTO which will take some time and if left till the end would mean the UK would be unable to trade for a considerable length of time.

 

Your final comment is quite contemptible.

 

 

The two year negotiation period is about the terms of the exit ... how the UK disentangles itself from the EU. 

 

They will need to discuss and agree trade terms, but that may well spill over beyond two years ... and that's only if the 27 countries of the EU agree to an extension. 

 

The process was designed to give the EU the upper hand in negotiations, as we are all about to find out!

 

[AlexRich]

14 minutes ago, vogie said:

 

You really don't have a clue do you.

 

Yawn! Debate the point, or don't participate. We have Farage on the front of the Express today, warning May about backsliding. Now why would he do that?

 

Things change, as do opinions, as do votes. That's democracy, live with it.

 

Edited September 6, 2016 by AlexRich

[sandyf]

8 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

Do you really think that the UK, which is apparently wreaking havoc on the world economy  will be unable to trade ?

 

 

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5741129a-4510-11e6-b22f-79eb4891c97d.html#axzz4JRLTkVno

 

Time to ditch the pessimism and embrace optimism. Look for solutions do not look for problems.

 

 

As has been said, you can't cherry pick.

 

Can the UK just go ahead and trade under WTO terms as soon as it leaves the EU?

No. In practice, the UK would have to detach itself from the EU and regularise its position within the WTO before it could sign its own trade agreements, including with the EU. As Roberto Azevêdo, the WTO’s director-general, saidrecently, there is no precedent for a WTO member extricating itself from an economic union while inside the organisation. The process would not be easy and would likely take years before the UK’s WTO position was settled, not least because all other member states would have to agree.

[AlexRich]

9 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

Do you really think that the UK, which is apparently wreaking havoc on the world economy  will be unable to trade ?

 

 

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5741129a-4510-11e6-b22f-79eb4891c97d.html#axzz4JRLTkVno

 

Time to ditch the pessimism and embrace optimism. Look for solutions do not look for problems.

 

 

 

"As long as no other WTO member objects" ... quite an important statement, conveniently passed over. Would this be used by another country or countries who have outstanding issues with the UK ... a bit of political blackmail? There could be trouble ahead!

[AlexRich]

3 minutes ago, sandyf said:

As has been said, you can't cherry pick.

 

Can the UK just go ahead and trade under WTO terms as soon as it leaves the EU?

No. In practice, the UK would have to detach itself from the EU and regularise its position within the WTO before it could sign its own trade agreements, including with the EU. As Roberto Azevêdo, the WTO’s director-general, saidrecently, there is no precedent for a WTO member extricating itself from an economic union while inside the organisation. The process would not be easy and would likely take years before the UK’s WTO position was settled, not least because all other member states would have to agree.

 

To my previous point ... "not least because all other members would have to agree". Why would the WTO director-general make that point, and why say "not least"? Is it because he is identifying a sticking point, a potential problem?

 

Over to you Sgt Bilko!

 

[sandyf]

9 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

The two year negotiation period is about the terms of the exit ... how the UK disentangles itself from the EU. 

 

They will need to discuss and agree trade terms, but that may well spill over beyond two years ... and that's only if the 27 countries of the EU agree to an extension. 

 

The process was designed to give the EU the upper hand in negotiations, as we are all about to find out!

 

Exactly. If the UK intends to use WTO access then they would need to get the EU to allow discussions with the WTO during the exit period.

[SgtRock]

9 minutes ago, sandyf said:

As has been said, you can't cherry pick.

 

Can the UK just go ahead and trade under WTO terms as soon as it leaves the EU?

No. In practice, the UK would have to detach itself from the EU and regularise its position within the WTO before it could sign its own trade agreements, including with the EU. As Roberto Azevêdo, the WTO’s director-general, saidrecently, there is no precedent for a WTO member extricating itself from an economic union while inside the organisation. The process would not be easy and would likely take years before the UK’s WTO position was settled, not least because all other member states would have to agree.

 

Sandy. Are you seriously barking mad ?

 

You are correct. The UK cannot just go ahead and trade as the UK under WTO rules.

 

I never said the UK could. I did say that it could do this.

 

Quote

The UK could simply copy the EU commitments and slide seamlessly into membership exclusively in its own right, as long as no other WTO member objects.

 

Until such times as the UK establishes itself as an independent member of the WTO. Which is a totally separate issue.

 

Stop looking for problems and start looking for solutions.

 

There is no going back so get with the program, solutions not problems.

[vogie]

1 minute ago, AlexRich said:

 

Yawn! Debate the point, or don't participate. We have Farage on the from of the Express, warning May about backsliding. Now why would he do that? Things change, as do opinions, as do votes. That's democracy, live with it.

 

 

I honestly think its you thats going to have to "live with it" Democracy is having a vote and adhering to the result, not keep having a vote until you get the result that suits just you and your fellow arrogant moaners. And by the way I will participate in this discussion how I feel fit, it is certainly not for you or your ilk to tell me! We have had enough insults from the remainers ie The Mob, Xenophobic, Racists, Stupid, thick and many more insulting remarks, ring any bells? Do you think that is a way for the remainers to "debate" their point, it really just shows what an arrogant lot you are!

[AlexRich]

11 minutes ago, vogie said:

 

I honestly think its you thats going to have to "live with it" Democracy is having a vote and adhering to the result, not keep having a vote until you get the result that suits just you and your fellow arrogant moaners. And by the way I will participate in this discussion how I feel fit, it is certainly not for you or your ilk to tell me! We have had enough insults from the remainers ie The Mob, Xenophobic, Racists, Stupid, thick and many more insulting remarks, ring any bells? Do you think that is a way for the remainers to "debate" their point, it really just shows what an arrogant lot you are!

 

I'm just sitting back and watching the brexit nirvana slowly unravel as the practicalities of the exercise are revealed. Votes are temporary ... we vote for a Government, then vote again to get rid of them ... just as we vote for a policy, and when we see it up close, we vote to get rid of it if we don't like it. Brexit vote is no different. Whether you wish it or not the outcome of the negotiations will be subject to a vote at the General Election. And just like the UK vote for Labour one time, and the Conservatives the next, Brexit could well be rejected by the voters. 

 

Strange that you think it's okay to call someone clueless but then complain about brexiteers being called xenophobes, racists, stupid and thick? Pot and kettle comes to mind. Not all Brexit voters are racist, but most racists voted for Brexit. And some of the Brexit people I saw interviewed on TV were intellectually challenged ... like you said, clueless.

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

I'm just sitting back and watching the brexit nirvana slowly unravel as the practicalities of the exercise are revealed. Votes are temporary ... we vote for a Government, then vote again to get rid of them ... just as we vote for a policy, and when we see it up close, we vote to get rid of it if we don't like it. Brexit vote is no different. Whether you wish it or not the outcome of the negotiations will be subject to a vote at the General Election. And just like the UK vote for Labour one time, and the Conservatives the next, Brexit could well be rejected by the voters. 

 

Strange that you think it's okay to call someone clueless but then complain about brexiteers being called xenophobes, racists, stupid and thick? Pot and kettle comes to mind. Not all Brexit voters are racist, but most racists voted for Brexit. And some of the Brexit people I saw interviewed on TV were intellectually challenged ... like you said, clueless.

 

Like I said, arrogant!

[AlexRich]

44 minutes ago, vogie said:

 

Like I said, arrogant!

 

Another failure to address the question. Don't moan about name calling and then do it yourself, hypocrite.

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

Another failure to address the question. Don't moan about name calling and then do it yourself, hypocrite.

 

How can anyone respond to one of your posts when they are totally crass. My take is a referendum has been taken, the majority chose to leave the EU. Your take is that I want another referendum till I/we get the result I like. How can one debate with someone with such a rediculous take on democracy, you wouldn't know what democracy is if you tripped over it!

[Denim]

Pound Rises to One-Month High Versus Euro as U.K. Services Surge

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-05/pound-rises-to-seven-week-high-as-u-k-services-index-surges

 

The pound touched its strongest level in more than a month versus the euro as services became the latest part of the economy to show a bounce back after the Britain’s vote to leave the European Union.

Sterling rose earlier to its highest in seven weeks against the dollar as a report showed a gauge of U.K. services increased the most on record in August. The pound has climbed versus all except one of its 31 major counterparts in the past week after a series of reports showed the initial disruption from the June 23 referendum may not be as severe as some economists predicted.

“The data is suggesting that early signs are encouraging, and it’s not been the economic fallout that some were suggesting, and that’s creating cutbacks in short-sterling positions,” said Neil Jones, London-based head of hedge-fund sales at Mizuho Bank Ltd., referring to bets that profit from a weaker pound. “It’s a continuation of the solid data that’s been surprising to the upside.”

 

The pound gained 0.1 percent to 83.81 pence per euro as of 4:16 p.m. London time, after reaching 83.52 pence, the strongest level since Aug. 4. Sterling was little changed at $1.3301, having climbed earlier to $1.3376, the highest since July 15.

While the U.K. currency’s almost 11 percent drop versus the dollar since the day of the EU referendum is still the worst performance among major peers, hedge funds and other large speculators last week reduced their net short positions for the first time since early July.

Services Expand

IHS Markit said its Purchasing Managers Index climbed to 52.9 from a seven-year low of 47.4 in July, the biggest monthly gain since the survey began two decades ago. The median estimate of economists in a Bloomberg survey was for a reading of 50, the level that divides expansion from contraction.

Markit predicted “an imminent recession will be avoided” but urged caution, saying data since the June Brexit referendum point to stagnation so far this quarter and many firms remain concerned about the outlook.

The report came after sentiment toward the pound was bolstered last week by data showing a rebound in construction, manufacturing output and higher household confidence. A stronger-than-estimated recovery may ease speculation the Bank of England will unleash further stimulus this year, which tends to debase the currency and boost demand for government bonds. Ten-year gilts pared gains after the report.

Benchmark 10-year gilt yields fell two basis points, or 0.02 percentage point, to 0.71 percent, after touching 0.69 percent. The 1.5 percent bond due in September 2026 rose 0.175, or 1.75 pounds per 1,000-pound face amount, to 107.53. The yield has risen from a record-low 0.501 percent set on Aug. 15.

“The recent string of positive U.K data surprises, particularly from PMI survey data, has collided with a market that was and remains highly bearish sterling,” Alvin T. Tan, a London-based foreign-exchange strategist at Societe Generale SA, wrote in a client note. “The resulting squeeze has propelled sterling up strongly over the past week.”

 

 

[AlexRich]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

 

How can anyone respond to one of your posts when they are totally crass. My take is a referendum has been taken, the majority chose to leave the EU. Your take is that I want another referendum till I/we get the result I like. How can one debate with someone with such a rediculous take on democracy, you wouldn't know what democracy is if you tripped over it!

 

When did I state that I wanted another referendum? Another one who likes to make things up.

 

When a population vote in a government, those that oppose them don't suddenly change their minds, they continue to campaign for what they believe in. Just like when Nigel Farage stated he would carry on arguing his case if he lost by a narrow margin, like 48-52. That is of course until he discovered that the vote went his way, after that he wants the 48% to just accept it ... another hypocrite to add to the list of many. 

 

What has been done can be undone. If people don't get what they thought they were getting and the economic consequences look dire, what do you think they will do? They'll vote it out in the next election. That's democracy, it's not a one and done process. 

[Denim]

^^   Is this some light at the end of the tunnel .......  or just asylum seekers with torches making there way across. ?

[vogie]

13 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

When did I state that I wanted another referendum? Another one who likes to make things up.

 

When a population vote in a government, those that oppose them don't suddenly change their minds, they continue to campaign for what they believe in. Just like when Nigel Farage stated he would carry on arguing his case if he lost by a narrow margin, like 48-52. That is of course until he discovered that the vote went his way, after that he wants the 48% to just accept it ... another hypocrite to add to the list of many. 

 

What has been done can be undone. If people don't get what they thought they were getting and the economic consequences look dire, what do you think they will do? They'll vote it out in the next election. That's democracy, it's not a one and done process. 

 

Your democracy is when it suits your agenda. BTW it seems everyone else has had enough of your world in La La Land and left you to debate on your own, maybe now you might get an answer you like eh?

[dick dasterdly]

20 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

A guest on Question Time, Russell Kane I think his name, a comedian from Essex. He was on the TV show after the vote ... he voted to Remain but told the story of about all of his relatives in Essex ... very happy that the Europeans would be going home! They actually believed that! You go to some of these places or watch the vox pops of people who voted to leave ... they think that. I did laugh.

 

19 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

Anecdote: another crushing debating weapon.

 

17 hours ago, cumgranosalum said:

It is a trait I think of Brexiteers that their skills in debate and argument are so poor that they are unable to tell the difference between reasoned proposition and  anecdote....

 

have you seen the Japanese report???? one hell of an anecdote!

 

but hey, who am I going to believe? You or a Japanese manufacturer?

Not convinced that a comedian's story was reasoned proposition rather than an anecdote .

 

But I'm looking forward to hearing your superior "debate and argument" as to how the comedian's joke was actually a "reasoned proposition".

[dick dasterdly]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

Apologies for the error in this post, it was a verbal report and this morning have seen it in print.

The 26% was all age groups, 43% for 18 - 34 year olds.

 

It means nothing.

 

As another poster pointed out, come back when it actually happens.  Many 18 to 34 year olds consider leaving the UK for sunnier/more laid back 'climes' - I was one of them.  It rarely happens though.

 

We went through the 'brain drain' stories a few decades ago, and this is an even worse attempt at propaganda - suiting a cause.

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

There has only ever been 3 full UK referendums which is a good indication of the part they play in UK politics. All 3 have been call as a confidence booster for government policy but unfortunately the latest was badly managed and backfired on the government. Another referendum wouldn't have any more credibility than the last one.

UK politics revolves around Parliament Sovereignty but in this case it is being bypassed in favour of an unreliable perception of the issue supported by a legacy from the dark ages.

Why a desperation to circumvent the political process, at the end of the day if MP's follow their constituents the outcome should be the same and a lot more credible. After all they are the elected representatives of the people.

No.  Politicians made the mistake of thinking they would win the referendum - thus 'shutting up' those who had serious problems with various aspects of the EU.

 

"Legacy from the dark ages" is ridiculous rhetoric at best.

 

The electorate know that politicians are untrustworthy - and consequently (unlike you) have no respect for the "Parliament Sovereignty".

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

Yawn! Debate the point, or don't participate. We have Farage on the front of the Express today, warning May about backsliding. Now why would he do that?

 

Things change, as do opinions, as do votes. That's democracy, live with it.

 

Farage warning May about backsliding (if he did this as the Express is FAR from a reputable source) is about the democratic referendum.

 

Those trying to circumvent this are those trying to ignore democracy.

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

"As long as no other WTO member objects" ... quite an important statement, conveniently passed over. Would this be used by another country or countries who have outstanding issues with the UK ... a bit of political blackmail? There could be trouble ahead!

Its always interesting reading the comments of those that ignore reality (i.e. trade if the UK leaves the EU), and prefer to rely on the any possible way that politicians will take precedence over business....

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

Exactly. If the UK intends to use WTO access then they would need to get the EU to allow discussions with the WTO during the exit period.

And yet, the UK seems (unsuprisingly) to already be negotiating with various countries.....

 

How naive (or determined) to you have to be to think for one minute that various negotiations aren't going on - regardless of EU rules?!

[dick dasterdly]

3 hours ago, vogie said:

 

I honestly think its you thats going to have to "live with it" Democracy is having a vote and adhering to the result, not keep having a vote until you get the result that suits just you and your fellow arrogant moaners. And by the way I will participate in this discussion how I feel fit, it is certainly not for you or your ilk to tell me! We have had enough insults from the remainers ie The Mob, Xenophobic, Racists, Stupid, thick and many more insulting remarks, ring any bells? Do you think that is a way for the remainers to "debate" their point, it really just shows what an arrogant lot you are!

I have reservations about brexit (which is why I eventually decided not to vote) - but feel the same way about the insults and arrogance shown on this forum by 'remainers'.

Edited September 6, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[Khun Han]

4 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

Can you show me the statement where I said "all brexiteers are stupid racists"? All meaning 100%. Making things up again? 

 

"Rant" about Japanese industry? No, just pointing out that yesterday the Japanese Government sent a very clear warning to the UK Government about the terms of Brexit. Just facts, one's that show your belief that such talk is "speculation" or "scaremongering" to be emotional drivel. 

 

 

 

The intellectual dishonesty of this guy is simply breathtaking. He has stated his opinion throughout this thread that the brexit referendum was won by ignorance and racism. Now he wants me to show him where he said 100% of brexiters are stupid racists!!! It's like trying to argue with a well-trained double glazing salesman.

[Orac]

Farage warning May about backsliding (if he did this as the Express is FAR from a reputable source) is about the democratic referendum.

 

Those trying to circumvent this are those trying to ignore democracy.

Taken from Farage's twitter feed:


The British people voted for a points-based migration system. There must be no backsliding on Brexit. https://t.co/C5ADCel8OE

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, Denim said:

Pound Rises to One-Month High Versus Euro as U.K. Services Surge

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-05/pound-rises-to-seven-week-high-as-u-k-services-index-surges

 

The pound touched its strongest level in more than a month versus the euro as services became the latest part of the economy to show a bounce back after the Britain’s vote to leave the European Union.

Sterling rose earlier to its highest in seven weeks against the dollar as a report showed a gauge of U.K. services increased the most on record in August. The pound has climbed versus all except one of its 31 major counterparts in the past week after a series of reports showed the initial disruption from the June 23 referendum may not be as severe as some economists predicted.

“The data is suggesting that early signs are encouraging, and it’s not been the economic fallout that some were suggesting, and that’s creating cutbacks in short-sterling positions,” said Neil Jones, London-based head of hedge-fund sales at Mizuho Bank Ltd., referring to bets that profit from a weaker pound. “It’s a continuation of the solid data that’s been surprising to the upside.”

 

The pound gained 0.1 percent to 83.81 pence per euro as of 4:16 p.m. London time, after reaching 83.52 pence, the strongest level since Aug. 4. Sterling was little changed at $1.3301, having climbed earlier to $1.3376, the highest since July 15.

While the U.K. currency’s almost 11 percent drop versus the dollar since the day of the EU referendum is still the worst performance among major peers, hedge funds and other large speculators last week reduced their net short positions for the first time since early July.

Services Expand

IHS Markit said its Purchasing Managers Index climbed to 52.9 from a seven-year low of 47.4 in July, the biggest monthly gain since the survey began two decades ago. The median estimate of economists in a Bloomberg survey was for a reading of 50, the level that divides expansion from contraction.

Markit predicted “an imminent recession will be avoided” but urged caution, saying data since the June Brexit referendum point to stagnation so far this quarter and many firms remain concerned about the outlook.

The report came after sentiment toward the pound was bolstered last week by data showing a rebound in construction, manufacturing output and higher household confidence. A stronger-than-estimated recovery may ease speculation the Bank of England will unleash further stimulus this year, which tends to debase the currency and boost demand for government bonds. Ten-year gilts pared gains after the report.

Benchmark 10-year gilt yields fell two basis points, or 0.02 percentage point, to 0.71 percent, after touching 0.69 percent. The 1.5 percent bond due in September 2026 rose 0.175, or 1.75 pounds per 1,000-pound face amount, to 107.53. The yield has risen from a record-low 0.501 percent set on Aug. 15.

“The recent string of positive U.K data surprises, particularly from PMI survey data, has collided with a market that was and remains highly bearish sterling,” Alvin T. Tan, a London-based foreign-exchange strategist at Societe Generale SA, wrote in a client note. “The resulting squeeze has propelled sterling up strongly over the past week.”

 

 

 

Don't worry, the remainers will have a busload of convoluted excuses about this.

 

The Great Crash of 2016 has morphed into The Great Crash of 2017 or 2018, though they're not sure if it might come further down the line. But it will definitely come eventually. Oh yes!!

[rockingrobin]

55 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

No.  Politicians made the mistake of thinking they would win the referendum - thus 'shutting up' those who had serious problems with various aspects of the EU.

 

"Legacy from the dark ages" is ridiculous rhetoric at best.

 

The electorate know that politicians are untrustworthy - and consequently (unlike you) have no respect for the "Parliament Sovereignty".

But was not returning power back to parliamentary sovereignty one of the objectives of the leave campaign

[brewsterbudgen]

Taken from Farage's twitter feed:


The British people voted for a points-based migration system. There must be no backsliding on Brexit. https://t.co/C5ADCel8OE

The fool Farage is no longer relevant. Thank goodness.

[SgtRock]

9 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

 

Taken from Farage's twitter feed:


The British people voted for a points-based migration system. There must be no backsliding on Brexit. https://t.co/C5ADCel8OE

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No they did not. The British people voted to remain or leave the EU.

 

There was no mention of Immigration systems on the ballot paper.

 

Farage is doing nothing but making mischief for his own ends.

[Khun Han]

6 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

But was not returning power back to parliamentary sovereignty one of the objectives of the leave campaign

 

It's the lesser of two evils Robin .