So what did the Brexit supporters gain?

[cumgranosalum]

18 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

Britain wants continued unfettered access to EU car markets and Germany wants continued unfettered access to the British car market. One doesn't need a crystal ball to work out where Europe-wide trade in cars is going to go (hint: nowhere, it's going to remain unfettered).

Some Brits might want a German car, but if you think they are seating over whether they sell in UK or not - you need a reality check - US and China are where the action is for them....and of course those 500 million outside the UK in the Eu...

[cumgranosalum]

15 minutes ago, brexiteer said:

 

 

Reversible?  

 

 

That will NEVER happen, democracy has already shown itself...

 

Dream on.

the wonderful thing about democracy is that it can change - and I think in a few years you will see that the Brexiteers were left with egg on their faces as UK remains closely tied to the EU - probably closer than now.

[cumgranosalum]

19 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

It would be constructive if the final terms of the UK's exit from the EU was put to the vote at a General Election ... parliamentary democracy at it's finest. 

 

Again, you're not describing a football match ... this game is reversible. As you may well find out.

 

 

 

 

parliament is sovereign in Uk not referendums

[AlexRich]

20 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

I am prepared to have a small token wager Alex, if you are

 

I don't gamble ... even small wagers. 

 

 

[i claudius]

 

I don't gamble ... even small wagers. 

 

 

Very wise,as you would lose

[AlexRich]

1 minute ago, i claudius said:

Very wise,as you would lose

 

A 'small wager' wouldn't impact on either of us ... I just don't do it as a matter of principle ... I've seen the impact on those that do.

 

 

 

[Khun Han]

38 minutes ago, cumgranosalum said:

Some Brits might want a German car, but if you think they are seating over whether they sell in UK or not - you need a reality check - US and China are where the action is for them....and of course those 500 million outside the UK in the Eu...

 

Actually, you couldn't be more wrong. The UK is Germany's largest export market for cars @ over 800,000 cars annually and around 20% of it's sales:

 

https://global.handelsblatt.com/edition/456/ressort/companies-markets/article/car-industry-would-bounce-back-experts-say

[SgtRock]

2 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

 

So no deep recession like you Remainians forecast

 

 

Last time I looked the sky hadn't fallen in either...................

 

 

Get over it.

 

It is fantastic to have a focal point when your head is jammed firmly up your jacksie.

 

The wailing never stops '' Its all Brexit's fault ''

 

The reality is it is nothing to do with Brexit and all to do with this:

 

Quote

New data for the United States and the eurozone released late last week reveal that the global economy is sinking deeper into stagnation, driven by cash-rich corporations that refuse to make productive investments even as central banks and governments continue to pump hundreds of billions of dollars into the financial markets. Just last week, the US Federal Reserve reassured the financial elite that it had no plans to raise interest rates from their historic lows any time soon.

 

Quote

These developments underscore the fact that there has been no recovery in the real economy since the financial crash of September 2008.

 

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/08/01/econ-a01.html

[cumgranosalum]

5 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

Actually, you couldn't be more wrong. The UK is Germany's largest export market for cars @ over 800,000 cars annually and around 20% of it's sales:

 

https://global.handelsblatt.com/edition/456/ressort/companies-markets/article/car-industry-would-bounce-back-experts-say

810,000  I think if you are going to quote a source you might read it first. "Brexit Could Hurt German Car Exports" - it will also force up the price of cars in UK........UK will become like Thailand - with a limited range of beige home produced vehicles protected by tariffs on any interesting imported cars.

 

You also overlook the fact that Germany has factories in US, UK and China - these are so they can produce for these markets - in the case of the UK this is the EU not just the UK.

and here are the chinese sales figures...

 

Volkswagen Group *	3,548,600	-3.4	9,930,600	-2
Volkswagen	2,630,000	-4.6	5,823,400	-4.8
Audi	570,889	-1.4	1,803,200	3.6
BMW**	463,736	4.2	1,905,234	5.2
Mercedes Benz	373,459	32.6	1,871,511	13.4
Porsche	58,009	24	225,100	18.6

 

Now re-read the article 

Edited September 12, 2016 by cumgranosalum

[Khun Han]

No. You just admit that you were hopelessly uninformed about the importance of the UK market to the German car industry, and move on. Or is (as I strongly suspect) this debate just a p1ssing contest for you?

[i claudius]

To all those who lost the vote already stop,mummy has washed your dummy now put it back in and get on with your lives, if it all goes tits up,then you can blame us bad Brexit boys and girls,and if it is all ok in the end,you can make up some story to say ,that it was all up to you.

Sent from my ASUS_T00J using Tapatalk

[AlexRich]

11 minutes ago, i claudius said:

To all those who lost the vote already stop,mummy has washed your dummy now put it back in and get on with your lives, if it all goes tits up,then you can blame us bad Brexit boys and girls,and if it is all ok in the end,you can make up some story to say ,that it was all up to you.

Sent from my ASUS_T00J using Tapatalk
 

 

Or keep fighting for a proper and correct vote on whether to accept the "terms of the exit" when that information is available ... in a general election. After that, it's done.

 

 

 

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

No. You just admit that you were hopelessly uninformed about the importance of the UK market to the German car industry, and move on. Or is (as I strongly suspect) this debate just a p1ssing contest for you?

 

So the Germans would have to sell just 6% more cars (approx) in China to make up for losing 800,000 sales in the UK? 

 

If they lost all sales it would not be "material" in their accounts.

[VBF]

30 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

So the Germans would have to sell just 6% more cars (approx) in China to make up for losing 800,000 sales in the UK? 

 

If they lost all sales it would not be "material" in their accounts.

And I suggest that we Brits couldn't care less either! If I cannot buy a BMW or Peugeot (which I currently own) well i'll buy a Toyota or Nissan or Hyundai or Kia or whatever. A car is a car is a car - these days they are nearly all the same anyway but for a company, its profits are essential to life itself. 

 

The car companies will put pressure on the European governments to allow trade deals, and i believe that Britain won't be the last country to exit, thus exacerbating the situation.

 

VBF - proud to be a "Brexiteer"

Edited September 12, 2016 by VBF
Added detail

[AlexRich]

6 minutes ago, VBF said:

And I suggest that we Brits couldn't care less either! If I cannot buy a BMW or Peugeot (which I currently own) well i'll buy a Toyota or Nissan or Hyundai or Kia or whatever. A car is a car is a car - these days they are nearly all the same anyway but for a company, its profits are essential to life itself. 

 

The car companies will put pressure on the European governments to allow trade deals, and i believe that Britain won't be the last country to exit, thus exacerbating the situation.

 

VBF - proud to be a "Brexiteer"

 

You can still buy them, they'll just be more expensive. The point was the economic hit to them doesn't look particularly bad, so the talk about how desperate they will be for a deal seems plain wrong!

 

 

[VBF]

7 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

You can still buy them, they'll just be more expensive. The point was the economic hit to them doesn't look particularly bad, so the talk about how desperate they will be for a deal seems plain wrong!

 

 

And if that happens, as i said people WILL buy other makes because they're all the same under the skin. (Kia gives a 7 year warranty on new and used vehicles by the way!) My other point though was that as other countries plan to leave the EU as I think will surely happen, more and more individual trade deals will be struck. That in itself is a pity as the original intent of the "Common Market" was to facilitate trade and avoid the need for individual deals, but the BS that goes with membership far outweighs that advantage.

 

In the immortal words of the Pythons........ "What have the Romans ever done for us?" 

Edited September 12, 2016 by VBF

[AlexRich]

1 minute ago, VBF said:

And if that happens, as i said people WILL buy other makes because they're all the same under the skin. (Kia gives a 7 year warranty on new and used vehicles by the way!) My other point though was that as other countries plan to leave the EU as I think will surely happen, more and more individual trade deals will be struck. That in itself is a pity as the original intent of the "Common Market" was to facilitate trade and avoid the need for individual deals, but the BS that goes with membership far outweighs that advantage.

 

The only country that I think might be forced out is Greece, but I suspect the others will be kept in as the EU will bend over backwards to keep them in ... the Italian referendum in October will be interesting.

[VBF]

Just now, AlexRich said:

 

The only country that I think might be forced out is Greece, but I suspect the others will be kept in as the EU will bend over backwards to keep them in ... the Italian referendum in October will be interesting.

@AlexRich

Well financially, the loss of Greece would be a net benefit to Europe (that's not racism, merely economic observation) but I wasn't' thinking of countries being forced out.

 

Britain decided to leave which is a very different thing. I think others will follow; in fact as negotiations become more acrimonious I wouldn't be surprised to see a rift between Germany and France!

No... I have no evidence other than the fact that I watch, read and listen to all sorts of news stories from different sources as no doubt do you.

 

That is my opinion however, and, also, i must say, my wish to see all countries run independently from within rather by faceless greedy bureaucrats.  I don't think i'd have made a very good Colonialist! 

[Khun Han]

Yet more silliness from the remainers. This time about the importance of the British market to German car manufacturers. I provided the raw figures to highlight how big the UK market is for Germany, so they try to twist the statistics. What they can't twist is the fact that the British car market is one of the most lucrative in the world: even small models are thousands of pounds more expensive than in most of the rest of the world. And these extra thousands of pounds per car go into the pockets of the manufacturers asd sellers, not the government. Indeed, a whole industry has developed in the UK in grey imports off the back of this, because for example a mid-range Merc or BM can be bought for a five figure sum Sterling less from European dealers than British ones. And it's not an issue ordering right-hand-drive models. These sales are in addition to the the figures I quoted earlier by the way.

 

Anyone trying to argue that the British car market is not vital to the German economy is either a fool or a liar.

[Ahab]

My reply is based on the title of the post 'So what did the Brexit supporters gain"?

 

They gained freedom from a distant non-accountable bureaucracy. The USA did the same thing a couple of hundred years ago, for similar reasons. 

 

It seems to have worked out OK for them since then and there was probably similar worries about similar issues. It will be OK.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Ahab

[cumgranosalum]

for those who still don't realise how gullible they were when they voted leave...

 

Brexit camp abandons £350m-a-week NHS funding pledge

 

 

[cumgranosalum]

3 hours ago, Ahab said:

My reply is based on the title of the post 'So what did the Brexit supporters gain"?

 

They gained freedom from a distant non-accountable bureaucracy. The USA did the same thing a couple of hundred years ago, for similar reasons. 

 

It seems to have worked out OK for them since then and there was probably similar worries about similar issues. It will be OK.

After they all had a war with a common oppressor, the various independent states formed a "UNION"  - bit like Europe after WW2?

 

learn form history - Unions are a  source of strength.

Edited September 13, 2016 by cumgranosalum

[AlexRich]

7 hours ago, Khun Han said:

Yet more silliness from the remainers. This time about the importance of the British market to German car manufacturers. I provided the raw figures to highlight how big the UK market is for Germany, so they try to twist the statistics. What they can't twist is the fact that the British car market is one of the most lucrative in the world: even small models are thousands of pounds more expensive than in most of the rest of the world. And these extra thousands of pounds per car go into the pockets of the manufacturers asd sellers, not the government. Indeed, a whole industry has developed in the UK in grey imports off the back of this, because for example a mid-range Merc or BM can be bought for a five figure sum Sterling less from European dealers than British ones. And it's not an issue ordering right-hand-drive models. These sales are in addition to the the figures I quoted earlier by the way.

 

Anyone trying to argue that the British car market is not vital to the German economy is either a fool or a liar.

 

The British car market is vital to the German economy? And anyone who does not agree with that statement is either a fool or a liar?

 

What percentage of German GDP is made up of German car sales to the UK?

 

 

 

[NB. For the record, my figure for 2015 is 0.6% ... which might fairly be described as a "rounding error", rather than 'vital'.]

 

 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2016 by AlexRich

[Khun Han]

8 hours ago, Khun Han said:

Yet more silliness from the remainers. This time about the importance of the British market to German car manufacturers. I provided the raw figures to highlight how big the UK market is for Germany, so they try to twist the statistics. What they can't twist is the fact that the British car market is one of the most lucrative in the world: even small models are thousands of pounds more expensive than in most of the rest of the world. And these extra thousands of pounds per car go into the pockets of the manufacturers asd sellers, not the government. Indeed, a whole industry has developed in the UK in grey imports off the back of this, because for example a mid-range Merc or BM can be bought for a five figure sum Sterling less from European dealers than British ones. And it's not an issue ordering right-hand-drive models. These sales are in addition to the the figures I quoted earlier by the way.

 

Anyone trying to argue that the British car market is not vital to the German economy is either a fool or a liar.

 

And if German car manufacturers make an average of 4000 Euros more per car on sales in the UK than they do in the rest of the EU (a very conservative average estimate imo), that's over three billion Euros in clear profit that they would lose even if they could sell those 810,000 cars elsewhere. Come on!!! Germany doesn't care? Really???

[AlexRich]

4 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

And if German car manufacturers make an average of 4000 Euros more per car on sales in the UK than they do in the rest of the EU (a very conservative average estimate imo), that's over three billion Euros in clear profit that they would lose even if they could sell those 810,000 cars elsewhere. Come on!!! Germany doesn't care? Really???

 

It's not "vital" to their economy. That was the point you made. Now weigh up how important it is for the EU not to break-up ... the financial impact of that would outweigh car sales.

[NanLaew]

3 hours ago, cumgranosalum said:

for those who still don't realise how gullible they were when they voted leave...

 

Brexit camp abandons £350m-a-week NHS funding pledge

 

 

 

And now that particular arrow has been officially removed from your already weak Remnant quiver, I wait with baited breath for your next, "I told you so" moment?

 

2 hours ago, cumgranosalum said:

After they all had a war with a common oppressor, the various independent states formed a "UNION"  - bit like Europe after WW2?

 

learn form history - Unions are a  source of strength.

 

Nope. Didn't work for the Soviet Union did it? The British Empire is similarly much diminished. So that's not very convincing at all. Like your repeated posting of news articles that rely heavily on words like 'may', 'could' and 'possibly' when talking about the death spiral that the Brexiteers have orchestrated.

 

Waiting to exhale now so hurry up will you?

Edited September 13, 2016 by NanLaew

[AlexRich]

7 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

 

And now that particular arrow has been officially removed from your already weak Remnant quiver, I wait with baited breath for your next, "I told you so" moment?

 

 

Nope. That's not very convincing at all. Like your repeated posting of news articles that rely heavily on words like 'may', 'could' and 'possibly' when talking about the death spiral that the Brexiteers have orchestrated.

 

Waiting to exhale now so hurry up will you?

 

He doesn't have much choice with words ... the UK is still in the EU? 

[rockingrobin]

Do not know what to make of David Davies comments yesterday

 

' Davis said parliament would be called upon to pass new laws to enact the exit from the bloc. '

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-davis-idUKKCN11I1UN

 

' Brexit Secretary David Davis said on Monday the government must persuade those who voted to stay in the European Union in both houses of parliament that Brexit is worthwhile. '

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-davis-parliament-idUKKCN11I1YX?mod=related&channelName=domesticNews

[AlexRich]

2 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

Do not know what to make of David Davies comments yesterday

 

' Davis said parliament would be called upon to pass new laws to enact the exit from the bloc. '

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-davis-idUKKCN11I1UN

 

' Brexit Secretary David Davis said on Monday the government must persuade those who voted to stay in the European Union in both houses of parliament that Brexit is worthwhile. '

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-davis-parliament-idUKKCN11I1YX?mod=related&channelName=domesticNews

 

Perhaps he's being advised that the government's legal case for exit without parliamentary approval is not as strong as he thought?

[Khun Han]

4 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

And if German car manufacturers make an average of 4000 Euros more per car on sales in the UK than they do in the rest of the EU (a very conservative average estimate imo), that's over three billion Euros in clear profit that they would lose even if they could sell those 810,000 cars elsewhere. Come on!!! Germany doesn't care? Really???

 

Now, if remainers can identify particular British industries that will suffer spectacular losses due to speculated brexit trade tariffs they are all over it like a rash, with pages and pages of posts about job losses and financial ruin, no way back, etc. But, when it's pointed out that German industries (and those of other EU countries of course) will suffer just as badly, they're just a few local difficulties, easily overcome, blah, blah. Such a balanced outlook those remainers have  .