Koh Tao DNA evidence used to condemn Burmese to death tested by an unaccredited lab

[JLCrab]

if the brown envelope is thick enough the judges has all the evidence needed to sentence the 2 B men

Since the largest denomination bill in Thailand is the 1000 baht note, these things get thick real quick. Wouldn't leave much room even for the donuts in the donut box.

[DLang]

if the brown envelope is thick enough the judges has all the evidence needed to sentence the 2 B men

The were sentenced the second the Prime Minister and military Junta leader declared that he viewed all the evidence and they were guilty as charged.

This was before the trial started.....

[Khun Han]

So, in view of the facts that the lab failed to follow any kind of internationally acceptable procedure (to put it mildly!), and it's now being claimed by the lab's own national regulatory body that it wasn't internationally accredited at the time, where does that leave the DNA 'evidence' produced by it? Can the regional 8 judges just stick their fingers in their ears and proceed as they were, if they wish to?

[sweatalot]

So, in view of the facts that the lab failed to follow any kind of internationally acceptable procedure (to put it mildly!), and it's now being claimed by the lab's own national regulatory body that it wasn't internationally accredited at the time, where does that leave the DNA 'evidence' produced by it? Can the regional 8 judges just stick their fingers in their ears and proceed as they were, if they wish to?

I am afraid they will find another "evidence"

And btw. I am not sure the defense was bad - they just had no chance against the verdict intention of the court

[DiscoDan]

ISO accreditation won't make much difference to appeal considering UK POLICE in house forensics also do not require ISO standard.

102. As already noted, all FSPs providing services for the police must be accredited to ISO 17025—this is a requirement under the current procurement strategy. However, police in-house forensic services are currently not subject to the same requirement.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmsctech/855/85506.htm

[Bkk Brian]

ISO accreditation won't make much difference to appeal considering UK POLICE in house forensics also do not require ISO standard.

102. As already noted, all FSPs providing services for the police must be accredited to ISO 17025—this is a requirement under the current procurement strategy. However, police in-house forensic services are currently not subject to the same requirement.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmsctech/855/85506.htm

What on earth has the UK got to do with this and do you really think that DNA evidence in murder cases are carried out by inhouse police services???? Everyone arrested in the UK for criminal charges is dna tested.

The fact is the judges in this case made a decision that DNA evidence was up to international standards, that clearly is not the case, pretty apparent for all to see unless you choose not to for whatever those reasons may be

[Khun Han]

Dan, but if UK police labs were to be shown in court to have not followed correct procedures, the DNA evidence would be thrown out. We know that this Thai lab didn't follow correct procedures. But the judges' summary referred to the lab being one that uses international-standard procedures, in accepting it's evidence. That's clearly not the case.

[spidermike007]

This case will haunt Thailand for a very, very long time and has literally killed tourism in the region. I am neither forensic specialist nor a DNA-expert but from what I read, heard and understood the only verdict of any decent court would have to include the possibility of a mistrial and this was never considered.

As nobody has an interest to execute the two Burmese boys to start with the objective must be a different one; could be serving as stand-ins for the real culprits? Almost two years have passed, millions of whatever currency have been burnt and nobody wants to call the kettle black!

Tourism in Thailand is way way down. According to all of the people I know who have hotels, restaurants, travel agencies, tour operators, and other related businesses, their business is way down. The TAT and other related agencies keep fudging the numbers, much the same as the Obama administration does with unemployment figures. They just change the parameters every month, so the figures go up or down, as they please. But, how may believe the nonsense? Very, very few I suspect. Yes, the number of Chinese tourists is rising. But, does that mean anything? They are on budget tours, and most of that money is repatriated to China. Big deal. Not exactly the group you want to pin your future hopes and dreams on. At least not if you have a reasonable mind, that possesses common sense, reason, wisdom, and vision.

Of course this bogus trial has hurt Thailand's image. Nobody likes a Kangaroo court. But, the country is suffering on so many other levels, that have not been addressed. Traffic safety, jet ski scams, visa policy, lack of transparency on any level, slave trade, human trafficking, drugs, high profile cases of violence, and assaults, lack of effective policing, and a poor judiciary, etc. I could go on all day long.

It is a shame. There are alot of good, kind hearted, warm, hand working, jovial people here that depend on tourism to make a buck. So, who is being hurt by all this? The little guy, as always. And what is the government doing to fix all this? Yak, yak, yak. But in reality, nothing. That is what they do best. Nothing.

[JLCrab]

According to Google News, just like with the "Australian Lawyer gives Hope ... " topic article in the SamuiTimes, no major media outlet in Thailand or UK is running this SamuiTiems story. I would question just how many of those who choose to visit Thailand or choose not to visit Thailand are even aware of this trial

I would also suggest that Courts anywhere are reluctant to summarily toss DNA or other evidence when there is virtually no other physical evidence in a criminal trial -- rather they would take such evidence under advisement and maybe instruct a jury that such evidence is of questionable significance as is often the case with any other evidence related to a trial.

Edited June 29, 2016 by JLCrab

[Khon Kaen Dave]

As far as i understand,the guilty verdict was delivered solely on the evidence of the DNA.If this is true,then isnt this a good way of the judge saving face,by saying that he was handed unreliable evidence and that he now feels that the two suspects can be freed on bail until the DNA evidence is substantiated. This would give the two boys the opportunity to escape to Burma.They would still be wanted criminals, but i dont think anybody would go looking for them.In respect of the international confusion and views of the world, who are aware of the situation,this would make everything go away,which i feel the Thai authorities and the judge in question would be more than relieved and pleased about.

[Srikcir]

According to Google News, just like with the "Australian Lawyer gives Hope ... " topic article in the SamuiTimes, no major media outlet in Thailand or UK is running this SamuiTiems story. I would question just how many of those who choose to visit Thailand or choose not to visit Thailand are even aware of this trial

I would also suggest that Courts anywhere are reluctant to summarily toss DNA or other evidence when there is virtually no other physical evidence in a criminal trial -- rather they would take such evidence under advisement and maybe instruct a jury that such evidence is of questionable significance as is often the case with any other evidence related to a trial.

Courts elsewhere?

There are no juries in Thailand - just judges

There are no court transcripts - just judge's private notes

Hearsay is admissable evidence.

[JLCrab]

According to Google News, just like with the "Australian Lawyer gives Hope ... " topic article in the SamuiTimes, no major media outlet in Thailand or UK is running this SamuiTiems story. I would question just how many of those who choose to visit Thailand or choose not to visit Thailand are even aware of this trial

I would also suggest that Courts anywhere are reluctant to summarily toss DNA or other evidence when there is virtually no other physical evidence in a criminal trial -- rather they would take such evidence under advisement and maybe instruct a jury that such evidence is of questionable significance as is often the case with any other evidence related to a trial.

Courts elsewhere?

There are no juries in Thailand - just judges

There are no court transcripts - just judge's private notes

Hearsay is admissable evidence.

Yes -- there was a reference above that such DNA evidence would not be admitted in a UK Court if police labs did not follow procedure. Maybe. As for this being Thailand -- thank you. The current Thailand Rules for Criminal Procedure have been in place since 1934.

Edited June 29, 2016 by JLCrab

[Basil B]

Prosecutions star witness (DNA) "Discredited"

[boomerangutang]

if the brown envelope is thick enough the judges have all the evidence needed to sentence the 2 B men

I dearly wish one Thai official had the cojones to 'follow the money' in this case. Sadly, not one Thai officials would dare even broach the subject. I'm not so much referring to Justices as I'm referring to a certain very rich island headman, and what a father like that would do (and spend) in order to shield his beloved son from any legal tangles.

So, in view of the facts that the lab failed to follow any kind of internationally acceptable procedure (to put it mildly!), and it's now being claimed by the lab's own national regulatory body that it wasn't internationally accredited at the time, where does that leave the DNA 'evidence' produced by it? Can the regional 8 judges just stick their fingers in their ears and proceed as they were, if they wish to?

I am afraid they will find another "evidence"

And btw. I am not sure the defense was bad - they just had no chance against the verdict intention of the court

Agree with both points. Thai officialdom, from the highest echelons of self-appointed power, want the scapegoats to stay scapegoats. Main reason: they don't want the most likely suspects mentioned/tried/convicted. So even if the DNA is shown to be worthless, officialdom will find other reasons to keep the Burmese locked up (they won't be killed). As for your closing point, I disagree with OP about Brian and the defense team. They could probably have done better, but they were always trying to swim upstream - against Thai officialdom (worth billions of baht) which were arm in arm trying to stifle justice.

[boomerangutang]

According to Google News, just like with the "Australian Lawyer gives Hope ... " topic article in the SamuiTimes, no major media outlet in Thailand or UK is running this SamuiTiems story.

In case you haven't noticed, there's essentially been a gag order for Thai press corps on the KT double murder case.

As for the UK, one of it's primary TV stations put together 2 one-hour documentaries on the KT screw-up. That's more than any Thai news/TV outlet has done. Thai TV will put together specials on a farmer woman marrying a cow and allowing it to sleep in her bed, or a katoy beauty contest, .....before they'll consider putting together a documentary on the biggest judicial scandal to hit Thailand in the past 10 years.

[denkiblue555]

I get a kick reading all this stuff on here from people who probably could barely spell DNA 2 years ago.

If there was DNA available, even if from a Thai lab whose accreditation was out of whack, to show that the 'real killers' did it, then there would persons on here and elsewhere who would probably say that the lack of accreditation should be taken into account by the Judges, but that such DNA should still be admissible in a Court of law.

Nah, far too many implications if certain procedures had not been followed, in this or any other situation where complex international standards of operation are required. That is the whole point of ISOs.

As most people are not experts, adherence to standard procedures provides evidence that things were done properly in a 'legal manner'. Otherwise any thinking person would simply ask themselves "why were established procedural standards not met?".

And yet you have no problem giving your expert opinion as to what could be admitted in any Court or not.

I am not aware of anyone calling my opinion expert.

[JLCrab]

According to Google News, just like with the "Australian Lawyer gives Hope ... " topic article in the SamuiTimes, no major media outlet in Thailand or UK is running this SamuiTiems story.

In case you haven't noticed, there's essentially been a gag order for Thai press corps on the KT double murder case.

As for the UK, one of it's primary TV stations put together 2 one-hour documentaries on the KT screw-up. That's more than any Thai news/TV outlet has done. Thai TV will put together specials on a farmer woman marrying a cow and allowing it to sleep in her bed, or a katoy beauty contest, .....before they'll consider putting together a documentary on the biggest judicial scandal to hit Thailand in the past 10 years.

Oh fort Chrissakes -- Reuters has a full time Bangkok bureau which newspapers all over the UK pick up reports and dispatches.

[Basil B]

if the brown envelope is thick enough the judges has all the evidence needed to sentence the 2 B men

Since the largest denomination bill in Thailand is the 1000 baht note, these things get thick real quick. Wouldn't leave much room even for the donuts in the donut box.

What makes you think they were paid in Thai Bahts???

I am sure 500 Euro notes would have been more favourable. (worth 20 times a 1,000 Baht note).

Or maybe instead of the Sixpences in the Xmas pud, watch out for the gold Krugerrands in the donuts...

Edited June 29, 2016 by Basil B

[JLCrab]

I get a kick reading all this stuff on here from people who probably could barely spell DNA 2 years ago.

If there was DNA available, even if from a Thai lab whose accreditation was out of whack, to show that the 'real killers' did it, then there would persons on here and elsewhere who would probably say that the lack of accreditation should be taken into account by the Judges, but that such DNA should still be admissible in a Court of law.

Nah, far too many implications if certain procedures had not been followed, in this or any other situation where complex international standards of operation are required. That is the whole point of ISOs.

As most people are not experts, adherence to standard procedures provides evidence that things were done properly in a 'legal manner'. Otherwise any thinking person would simply ask themselves "why were established procedural standards not met?".

And yet you have no problem giving your expert opinion as to what could be admitted in any Court or not.

I am not aware of anyone calling my opinion expert.

If you're not an expert then maybe put in a conditional like 'my opinion' or 'maybe' but "far too many implications" without saying just where and how you could make such a statement would maybe look better. ... and many of those decisions as to why such standards were not met would be a decision at the discretion as of a judge.

[denkiblue555]

And yet you have no problem giving your expert opinion as to what could be admitted in any Court or not.

..... etc.

I am not aware of anyone calling my opinion expert.

If you're not an expert then maybe put in a conditional like 'my opinion' or 'maybe' but "far too many implications" without saying just where and how you could make such a statement would maybe look better. ... and many of those decisions as to why such standards were not met would be a decision at the discretion as of a judge.

This is a forum - people write their opinions, that's the whole point.

[JLCrab]

Square 1: A Thai family ahas spent maybe hundreds millions if not billions of baht, had maybe multiple billions of baht impact on the Thai economy, and corrupted scores of government officials from just about as high as you can go to gate attendants at various airports, and for what? So that can some rich guy can protect his son from being with charged with a crime that everybody knows he committed?

All of which for going on nearly two years without one person making a mistake or inadvertently saying the wrong thing to the wrong person which is how these large scale collusions often seem to unravel. And with persons like the above claiming they know the whole scenario of who did what and when to whom for for what in exchange without anybody who is directly involved letting on as to how this all came to be.

That is a very confusing post.

There is no doubt about police/mafia corruption on that island, it is far from a secret or hidden.

Thank you. This is the murder of two young citizens of the UK who were tourists and registered guests of at the hotel owned by the family a member of which is suspected as being the real killer who left the bodies practically on the family's front -porch. That is not a routine bunko squad occurrence.

Edited June 29, 2016 by JLCrab

[boomerangutang]

What makes you think they were paid in Thai Bahts??? I am sure 500 Euro notes would have been more favourable. (worth 20 times a 1,000 Baht note).

Or maybe instead of the Sixpences in the Xmas pud, watch out for the gold Krugerrands in the donuts...

Or title deeds (chanod) to property, or jewelry, or a fancy car, or......? We don't know. Only the principles would know if any of that happened. What's lamentable is there's been zero effort to gauging what, if anything, may have happened. If no money or valuables changed hands, then ok. But the public deserves to know. In case anyone is in doubt about Thai customs: IT'S VERY COMMON for important people to get paid off for favors. That's the main reason children of rich VIP Thai people are above the law.

According to Google News, just like with the "Australian Lawyer gives Hope ... " topic article in the SamuiTimes, no major media outlet in Thailand or UK is running this SamuiTiems story.

In case you haven't noticed, there's essentially been a gag order for Thai press corps on the KT double murder case.

As for the UK, one of it's primary TV stations put together 2 one-hour documentaries on the KT screw-up. That's more than any Thai news/TV outlet has done. Thai TV will put together specials on a farmer woman marrying a cow and allowing it to sleep in her bed, or a katoy beauty contest, .....before they'll consider putting together a documentary on the biggest judicial scandal to hit Thailand in the past 10 years.

Oh fort Chrissakes -- Reuters has a full time Bangkok bureau which newspapers all over the UK pick up reports and dispatches.

Reuters is a farang organization. Re-read my post and you'll see I mentioned "Thai press corps." Also, I mentioned documentaries not news snippets. British Channel 4 has done two. Thai media has done zero. Connect the dots, and don't blaspheme

[Moonsterk]

I've just gotten off the phone with Dr Triyarith, who runs that lab as shown in the attachments He's very interested in what is being said about this. I'm going to send him the link and perhaps he'll join the conversation and we can put the misinformation to bed re the DNA evidence in this case.

[biplanebluey]

I've just gotten off the phone with Dr Triyarith, who runs that lab as shown in the attachments He's very interested in what is being said about this. I'm going to send him the link and perhaps he'll join the conversation and we can put the misinformation to bed re the DNA evidence in this case.

I really do not think it is that easy do you?

I also do not really think it will happen either.One big brown envelope!!!!!!!!!

It might even be too dangerous for him to upset the boat

[Jai Dee]

Several troll posts have been removed from this thread and the member concerned has earned a holiday.

[Bkk Brian]

I've just gotten off the phone with Dr Triyarith, who runs that lab as shown in the attachments He's very interested in what is being said about this. I'm going to send him the link and perhaps he'll join the conversation and we can put the misinformation to bed re the DNA evidence in this case.

I suspect you may be in for a disappointment there. It took him 132 days to get back to Ian Y's first letter and that was only after the intervention of the main accrediting body. The second letter to Ian from him made clear the official channels that need to be observed in correspondence. Thai Visa not being one of them so having him sign up here is wishful thinking in my humble opinion

[JLCrab]

I've just gotten off the phone with Dr Triyarith, who runs that lab as shown in the attachments He's very interested in what is being said about this. I'm going to send him the link and perhaps he'll join the conversation and we can put the misinformation to bed re the DNA evidence in this case.

I suspect you may be in for a disappointment there. It took him 132 days to get back to Ian Y's first letter and that was only after the intervention of the main accrediting body. The second letter to Ian from him made clear the official channels that need to be observed in correspondence. Thai Visa not being one of them so having him sign up here is wishful thinking in my humble opinion

Mr. Yarwood's first letter ended with: "I pray that you appreciate the importance of this enquiry ..." Maybe this guy has a sense of humor.

[denkiblue555]

And then if they showed you any and all receipts, transactions, etc. and there was nothing there, you would likely say: Where are you hiding the ones we REALLY want to see?

If they showed you 10 hours of CCTV video and there was nothing there, you would say: Of course -- all the incriminating stuff is in the 11th hour.

The Watergate burglars were arrested with $100 bills which were traced. That was the money they followed. There actually WAS money. Here there is just supposition which you've written about for almost 2 years.

Ok, how about a simple analysis of the 48 hours prior to the murder for the 2 victims and those initially accused?

Who went where and did what with whom?

[JLCrab]

If you want to live in some parallel universe go ahead. If no one can be found to say that they saw someone there it can be 101 reasons why people saw someone there but won't say they saw someone there or maybe it's because no one saw someone there.

Even the yellow brick road had a beginning. If you find some actual money trail then you start to investigate a money trail -- you can't investigate a trail when you can't find the beginning of a trail.

... and in all your demanding to see evidence I don't know that you ever have mentioned getting a search warrant.

[Gang Warily]

It went to a lab in Singapore afaik.

I stop following this nonsense, can't believe a word of it.

I agree, you shouldn't believe a word of that "article".

The 29 June 2015 accreditation date is the one for the latest anual renewal of the accreditation, if you go to this link you will see that the lab (#215 in the list) first accreditation dates to 2013.

LabAccreditation.jpg

All the controversy surrounding this case is a house of cards built on unwarranted assumptions, baseless speculation and outright lies (as the one I just pointed at), now this edifice is crumbling and this "activists" can't throw each other under the bus fast enough.

U need to go further into that link to read the true accrediation under 'scope' which was as BLQS stated