Beijing refuses to accept Hague ruling over South China Sea territorial claims

[Publicus]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/oct/04/fracking-us-toxic-waste-water-washington

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/dec/14/toxic-ewaste-illegal-dumping-developing-countries

There is a certain stench of being hypocritical from the west and hence my particular hatred at any sense that the thread swings against China for just being China .

I can see why there are certain fractions that disagree with China's stance and it's recent activities in SCS.

I'm an environmentalist first but also practical enough to understand in politics you don't win them all.

China or CCP is not a perfect government and while they have done certain things right, they will make mistakes along the way. This SCS negotiation has gone wrong for China in many ways because there are committees which want to counter the USA's aggressive military interference and there are also those who favours a tilt in focus on solving the trade / financial issues first. In this round, the military folks won and thankfully while there will be blistering talk and aggressive stance, common sense will prevail and also the cost of any military activities that will be a waste of money.

China needs better PR management and more focus on trade as this is the only consistent diplomacy tool to use in Asia. ASEAN always have a fascination with the west but there is no doubt at the end China is a strategic partner in ASEAN and trading with the Asia bloc is foreseeably going to always happen with China around.

There is no partner here with more weightage than China in this area and China should focus on that while defending strongly its rights as a superpower.

CCP would do well by everyone and itself to refocus on trade and its own stumbling economy rather than to try to infiltrate the territories of others based on the ages-old belief everything is Chinese because the Chinese declare it is.

CCP are heavily invested in Asean yet Asean is fighting the Dictators consistently and fiercely because the great majority of Asean member states will not return to their historical status as tributary states or as the 21st century equivalent.

CCP are looking at 21st century Japan, not the Japan of old. South Korea is far ahead of CCP China in its development while CCP is ahead of North Korea which is no distinction at all. Singapore is prosperous, democratic and aligned with the United States in the SCS and vis-s-vis Russia. Thailand is not the place CCP teaches that it supposedly is, i.e., a place of a low civilisation to push around at will. Malaysia is diverse, democratic, prospering more with each GDP report. Indonesia is not some island outpost and neither are the Philippines.

These countries and peoples want peace and prosperity in their own lands, not Chinese emperors in business suits sending in fishing boats supported by the PLA Navy against 'em. They want good neighbors and they want to be good neighbors, not the neighbor from hell. None of 'em want to have to spend additional billions on submarines, navy surface craft, updated air forces, all having the most modern weapons, equipment, training and the like. This is what the CCP Dynasty of Dictators is forcing them to do. Which is why the United States has had its 7th Naval Fleet in this region since the end of World War II and which is why it remains both present and welcome -- except to the emperors in Beijing.

The world has changed and the Chinese have not. So do try to catch up plse thx. Pronto.

The Dictators in Beijing took this disastrous route because they are more interested in strategic factors than in the resource factor of the SCS. CCP have no resource extraction contracts in SCS whereas foreign companies have 'em with Asean coastal countries, specifically from UK, France, Germany, USA, India to include Russia. Asean doesn't want Beijing taking charge of resource extraction or to have strategic dominance. Neither does Japan or South Korea or Australia, or India.

This has been much more a Beijing power play than an economically driven blunder. If it were a matter of resource extraction CCP would cooperate to at least some extent. Rather, CCP had been hell bent on grabbing territory in the SCS regardless of who it belongs to and no matter what. Power, control, dominance first, resource extraction later had always been the Dictator's plan.

Another dictatorship foiled. We look forward to the new Plan A so take your time with it and make it a good one going forward.

[craigt3365]

Lawrence. You're digging yourself into a hole. You normally have very good and well balanced posts.

Nobody is saying China is always bad and the West is always good. But in this one single instance. They are wrong. If China had freedom of the press, many there would be saying the same thing. Sadly it's not allowed.

Again, this is only about the SCS. Please.

[Publicus]

In the news these dayze...

KFC, Apple in China hit by South China Sea spat

In this photo taken on Tuesday, July 19, 2016 and released by Guo Lu, policemen stand watch Chinese people carrying national flags hold a protest outside a KFC restaurant outlet in Baoying county in east China's Jiangsu province. In an apparent attempt to head off large-scale street demonstrations, Chinese state newspapers have criticized scattered protests against KFC restaurants and other U.S. targets sparked by an international tribunal's ruling that denied Beijing's claim to virtually the entire South China Sea. (Guo Lu via AP)

https://www.yahoo.com/news/kfc-apple-china-hit-south-china-sea-spa-082041535--finance.html

It is a positive that CCP are now saying in their controlled media to these elements of the public to calm down and to leave the KFC and Apple stores and customers to their business. CCP now has on its hands the consequences of aggression and belligerence abroad, indoctrination at home, and the need to recover eroded relations with the neighborhood but, in this instance, the United States in particular which is the home of the two affected companies.

In 2013 CCPs mobbed the streets to destroy Japanese stores and wrecked Japanese cars driven by Chinese in reaction to disputes over the Senkaku Islands in the East Sea (Japan said there was no dispute cause they own the islands). That was settled when US said the Senkaku are included in Japanese sovereignty by the Mutual Defense Treaty of 1951. CCP got the message in that one too. So now the SCS which, as we know, isn't over till it's over.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Publicus

[ilostmypassword]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/oct/04/fracking-us-toxic-waste-water-washington

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/dec/14/toxic-ewaste-illegal-dumping-developing-countries

There is a certain stench of being hypocritical from the west and hence my particular hatred at any sense that the thread swings against China for just being China .

I can see why there are certain fractions that disagree with China's stance and it's recent activities in SCS.

I'm an environmentalist first but also practical enough to understand in politics you don't win them all.

China or CCP is not a perfect government and while they have done certain things right, they will make mistakes along the way. This SCS negotiation has gone wrong for China in many ways because there are committees which want to counter the USA's aggressive military interference and there are also those who favours a tilt in focus on solving the trade / financial issues first. In this round, the military folks won and thankfully while there will be blistering talk and aggressive stance, common sense will prevail and also the cost of any military activities that will be a waste of money.

China needs better PR management and more focus on trade as this is the only consistent diplomacy tool to use in Asia. ASEAN always have a fascination with the west but there is no doubt at the end China is a strategic partner in ASEAN and trading with the Asia bloc is foreseeably going to always happen with China around.

There is no partner here with more weightage than China in this area and China should focus on that while defending strongly its rights as a superpower.

LC, you say big countries make mistakes and it's harder for them (because they're big?!) to admit mistakes. Odd. Chinese decision-makers could have hired me (I'm cheap) to advise them on environmental ramifications of doing what they were planning to do (and still planning to do) at territories near the Fil coast. I would have told them it's massively destructive to the natural environment. It's as obvious as; 1 + 1 = 2.

As for dragging up the argument of; "well, western countries and Australia did bad things in their history, so China should be allowed to do bad things......"

That's a juvenile argument. Historically, all country governments have done bad things in the past. Now is now. Plus, it often happens that western countries will apologize and/or make amends for bad things that happened in the past. Again: Now is Now. 21st Century. In the past several decades, only two other countries (that I can recall) have tried to commandeer territory other countries: Argentina and the Falklands/Malvines, and Iraq and Kuwait.

And we know what resolved in those two cases. Now, decades after Argentina and Iraq, we have China doing similar. Any objective observer (in other words; anyone outside of China) can plainly see that China has no historical ownership rights to the territories they're occupying. It's too bad that the Beijing Propaganda Machine has whipped the Chinese sheeple into believing lies. That's going to have very bad repercussions, I'm sorry to say.

Let's better believe this...no one is saying Chinese is not allowed to make mistakes ....that's misquoting and dumb.

What we are saying is Chinese will continue to push its agenda and see how far it can push...in this case, quote me " I think they have gone too far in pushing Philippines "

However they wont apologise and like all politicians will try to find a back door way to resolve this saving them some face in the process. Won't wanted wont see any superpowers humiliated.

In thinking about mistakes...understand this...they lost a Hague ruling...they have built a few structures and yes environmentally they have damaged some reefs....but they have not killed ...they have not murdered...they have not displaced millions...so in this mistake I would say this is a diplomatic one....they can recover this...those done by the west stinks of media cover ups...those are hard to manage because millions have lost their lives and lifestyle ....that is real and is not ancient. It does not give the right for china to copy those errors and indeed there are many in the committees voicing their displeasure at how far this has went.

USA has went into an illegal war...they have never apologised and they never will.... no matter what the Chinese media will paint it and write about it in the media....The Chinese accept this....the Vietnames have accepted the USA wont ever apologise for the use of Agent Orange and will never apologise for the war inflicted in Laos with all the landmines dropped. IT felt at that moment it was justified against the communists and it will never apologise.

And now is not ancient times...Syria is now....Australia is still now with displaced Aborigines and no apology after many many many prime ministers ...those are not historic...Congo is now....Iraq is now.......Afghanistan is still now...let;'s not deflect and divert and be damn hypocrites here thinking it's all fairy tales and happened in Persian times..

most of these happened between OS1 to OS 10 on your iPhone updates....

What about the millions who died from Mao's Great Leap Forward? Is China going to apologize for that? Or is that purely an internal matter and, as such, no apology or acknowledgment is necessary? Or their treatment of the Tibetans? Please, don't make it seem that China has only committed bloodless undiplomatic faux pas. The Chinese Communist party has a very ugly recent history. And, I believe, they are now demonstrating their remorse by building a giant statue of Mao.

[LawrenceChee]

In the news these dayze...

KFC, Apple in China hit by South China Sea spat

In this photo taken on Tuesday, July 19, 2016 and released by Guo Lu, policemen stand watch Chinese people carrying national flags hold a protest outside a KFC restaurant outlet in Baoying county in east China's Jiangsu province. In an apparent attempt to head off large-scale street demonstrations, Chinese state newspapers have criticized scattered protests against KFC restaurants and other U.S. targets sparked by an international tribunal's ruling that denied Beijing's claim to virtually the entire South China Sea. (Guo Lu via AP)

https://www.yahoo.com/news/kfc-apple-china-hit-south-china-sea-spa-082041535--finance.html

It is a positive that CCP are now saying in their controlled media to these elements of the public to calm down and to leave the KFC and Apple stores and customers to their business. CCP now has on its hands the consequences of aggression and belligerence abroad, indoctrination at home, and the need to recover eroded relations with the neighborhood but, in this instance, the United States in particular which is the home of the two affected companies.

In 2013 CCPs mobbed the streets to destroy Japanese stores and wrecked Japanese cars driven by Chinese in reaction to disputes over the Senkaku Islands in the East Sea (Japan said there was no dispute cause they own the islands). That was settled when US said the Senkaku are included in Japanese sovereignty by the Mutual Defense Treaty of 1951. CCP got the message in that one too. So now the SCS which, as we know, isn't over till it's over.

The Chinese love their chicken like Thais...this will soon blow over when people miss their original chicken with the 13 secret spices....remember the french fries incident ?

[LawrenceChee]

Lawrence. You're digging yourself into a hole. You normally have very good and well balanced posts.

Nobody is saying China is always bad and the West is always good. But in this one single instance. They are wrong. If China had freedom of the press, many there would be saying the same thing. Sadly it's not allowed.

Again, this is only about the SCS. Please.

True bad day at work and almost lost a deal...In this instance they are wrong to push the Philippines too far but they will recover. I can see the engines moving towards that and courtship will start again. ASEAN partners are decidedly flirts in this manner, they know China, USA and Japan all want influence in this area and understandably dig in for a bigger diamond ring.

China being communist is not going to allow a free press. It won't happen unfortunately. Those with more moderate ideas have swung open their vpns for a long time already...there is however a core group much like the red necks who needs the party papers and directions. Let's just said they are ignored in the committees who are more moderate.

[ilostmypassword]

There is no partner here with more weightage than China in this area and China should focus on that while defending strongly its rights as a superpower.

What special rights does China or the USA or any nation have as a superpower?

[Publicus]

Good question to LC if I may say so and I'm tempted to answer it for him but it's proper to let him say his own piece (as he's pretty much alone now). My only point is the obvious one that CCP China is an aspiring power, that it is not yet a power much less a superpower as LC and his CCP pals imagine, dream, wish, and ethnically-genetically need to have it be.

Fact is CCP is not going to recover from this muckup.

CCP left themselves wide open to the UNCLOS for 20 years until a tough president of Philippines Aquino took 'em to The Hague over it. Now CCP has had to back away from the US Navy and has been hung out to dry by the Permanent Court of Arbitration, (which had already become the UNCLOS Tribunal as well as continuing in its usual stuff since 1895).

So here are some of CCP's new list of new problems since the July 12th ruling by the Tribunal, in no particular order.

*Phils new president Rodrigo Duterte rejected Beijing's invitation to negotiate bilaterally and separately and apart from the Tribunal's rulings. In other words Duterte absolutely refused to ignore the rulings and the Phil's case. Understandable try by CCP but really not good form either as it continues to show CCP resistance to UNCLOS.

*CCP is making new noises not heard before in its approaches to the Phils (nor to anyone else). CCP is now talking about "provisional arrangements of a practical nature pending final settlement of the dispute." Well, this is the exact text language in the Convention (treaty). It means the parties do joint development while setting aside questions of sovereignty or zones and the like.

*While this can sound promising, Vietnam says to hold your horses (buffaloes?) there in Manila...and Vietnam knows of these things. VN says CCP won't quit on the issues of sovereignty and will use talks to stall for further island building and expansion of existing islands, and that CCP will use the "provisional talks" to keep alive its sovereignty assertions. So....

Tran Cong Truc, the former head of Vietnam's borders committee, dismissed China's overtures. In previous talks with Hanoi, China has sought joint development of waters that Vietnam considers its own exclusive economic zone to which Beijing has no legitimate claim, he said.

"Beijing wants to turn undisputed areas into disputed areas," he said.

"They wanted to secure a placement in the joint development as a first step and then control all of it," he said. "There could be some differences in the way they talk ... but there is no change in their nature."

http://www.philstar.com/headlines/2016/07/22/1605474/chinas-calls-south-china-sea-talks-face-challenges

Hanoi gets a strong 'I got your back' from Washington...

"I wonder whether there is a trap for the Philippines implicit in this enticing offer," asked Bonnie Glaser, senior adviser for Asia at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, D.C.

If the Philippines accepted the provisional arrangements, Glaser said, that might acknowledge that China has some form of resource rights despite the ruling to the contrary. "In essence, it is asking Manila to ignore the ruling," she said.

http://www.philstar.com/headlines/2016/07/22/1605474/chinas-calls-south-china-sea-talks-face-challenges

To say the nations of Asean do not trust China would be to understate their past 2000 years at China's feet. Given however this is the 21st century, Asean minus Cambodia and Laos have been clear they don't trust China, that they trust CCP less, and Asean do not want CCP asserting strategic control over the SCS -- nor does Asean want CCP involved in energy extraction or to run amok with its overfishing in the EEZs of Asean countries.

CCP have a long row to hoe in this. By CCP's own arrogance and stupidity it never considered Asean taking a judicial route to deal with CCP's bullying and shoving behaviors in and around the Sea. The big consequence is that now CCP has an imperative to talk, discuss, negotiate while Asean can summarily accept or reject.

Some kind of agreement will be necessary however, which is why the US Navy will continue to hang around the SCS just as it has done consistently since the end of World War II. A law means there needs to be police to enforce it. Especially when there are known and widely recognised criminal gangs operating in the neighborhood.

Edited July 22, 2016 by Publicus

[LawrenceChee]

Criminal Gangs ?

That is baiting and against forum rules Comrade P and USA is not the defined policeman ...more the butcher of the middle east if you ask some quarters and mothers there

I have already quoted unless your English skills are slipping that the Chinese pushed too far in this case with the Philippines and understandably on the world stage they need to continue to probe and see what can be accepted and what is not.

After all they are communist operating under hybrid of governance and there is no real game plans for that.

No one wants China to operate as a pure communist states like the Russians / North Koreans and neither can one expect them to be as open as in viewpoints as USA as they are not a democracy by the fact they don't offer votes.

So in this case, the Chinese will rebound back ..yes I am alone now but the Chinese have been used to that for centuries ...they will learn from this and become stronger and I have no doubt at the back of my head eventually a trade deal will happen. it will take time to court the countries back but as some posters like to point out...we have 5000 years of history...that's long.

Chinese will continue to be around and there is no doubt on that they will continue to trade. I was just in Philippines and just as welcomed as last month before the ruling. Asians understand governments are irrelevant tools ....but business partners ..that's a different story.

For those with real business experience...it may be easier to understand.

[boomerangutang]

LC: "However they wont apologise and like all politicians will try to find a back door way to resolve this saving them some face in the process. Won't wanted wont see any superpowers humiliated."

I don't think anyone is asking for an apology. They just want China to get heck out of there. Similarly, no one except China is concerned about 'face.' Most people learn by the age of 4, you don't take things that aren't yours, even if you're bigger than the other person.

In thinking about mistakes...understand this...they lost a Hague ruling...they have built a few structures and yes environmentally they have damaged some reefs....but they have not killed ...they have not murdered...they have not displaced millions.

That's like Republican VP candidate actually saying that cigarettes aren't deadly, because 2/3 of cigarette smokers don't die from cigarette-related illnesses. Or that's like saying the Japanese in WWII weren't imperialistic because they only took some countries by force, but didn't invade Africa or South America.

[LawrenceChee]

LC: "However they wont apologise and like all politicians will try to find a back door way to resolve this saving them some face in the process. Won't wanted wont see any superpowers humiliated."

I don't think anyone is asking for an apology. They just want China to get heck out of there. Similarly, no one except China is concerned about 'face.' Most people learn by the age of 4, you don't take things that aren't yours, even if you're bigger than the other person.

In thinking about mistakes...understand this...they lost a Hague ruling...they have built a few structures and yes environmentally they have damaged some reefs....but they have not killed ...they have not murdered...they have not displaced millions.

That's like Republican VP candidate actually saying that cigarettes aren't deadly, because 2/3 of cigarette smokers don't die from cigarette-related illnesses. Or that's like saying the Japanese in WWII weren't imperialistic because they only took some countries by force, but didn't invade Africa or South America.

Takes time to understand the Asian minds Boomer...how important face revolves around here. You live in CR....surely the folks there are more conservative compared to the Bangkok / Phuket folks.

I wont claim I understand the Americans as I clearly don't get some of the things they get.

Personally nothing against the americans as I have close friends there...but some of the habits, lawsuits, gun fights, black friday sales behaviour ....these are things I don't get as much as I don't understand american football and probably will never will.

[Publicus]

National Security Adviser Susan Rice will meet in Beijing Monday with Xi Jinping in a quickly arranged meeting set up over the past few days and announced by the White House a few hours ago.

Dr. Rice has been running CCP China policy in the WH since Hillary Clinton completed her term as SecState at the end of 2012. Both Rice and HRClinton are commited to the US "rebalance" to the Asia-Pacific which has aligned Rice with Ashton Carter since he became SecDef early last year.

So let's find out whether Xi is looking for an off ramp from the fix CCP are in or whether CCP is going to continue to barrel straight ahead. (Chinese have never been good when it comes to off-ramps.)

Exclusive: Top Obama aide to take call for South China Sea calm to Beijing

Reuters

Rice is expected to meet Chinese President Xi Jinping during her visit and her agenda will include North Korea, economic issues and human rights. She will also lay the groundwork for Obama’s talks with Xi at a G20 summit in China in September, U.S. officials said.

But with the South China Sea issue looming large, Rice, who has led U.S. policymaking on China, said the United States and China have “careful work to do to manage our differences.”

With less than six months remaining of President Barack Obama's tenure, Rice’s broader mission in her July 24-27 trip is aimed at keeping overall ties between the world’s two largest economies, which she called “the most consequential relationship we have,” on track at a time of heightened tensions. "I'll be there to advance our cooperation," she said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-southchinasea-usa-exclusive-idUSKCN10210Z

SecState Kerry meanwhile will be in Laos for the sequence of regional meetings that began yesterday and run through Wednesday next week, from the Asean foreign ministers to the East Asia Summit to Mekong River commissions etc.

Philippines says they want an Asean resolution supporting Phils in the SCS that calls on CCP specifically to recognise the PCA Tribunal ruling as the basis of any negotiations. US, China, Japan, UK, Canada, Australia all have standing invitations to these meetings so they'll be present too.

[LawrenceChee]

Malaysia & Singapore just announced an MOU to complete the 350km high speed railway between the 2 countries.

Let's see if Japan can put in a robust bid to win this contract as realistically only the Chinese / Japanese can build this at the specs / price point provided.

USA certainly didn't do itself any favours with Malaysia governments with the announcement of the FBI probe in its failed 1MD which was a pet project of the current PM and this could again push the Malaysian govt back to favour the Chinese.

Laos and Cambodia are bit players and firmly entrenched on the Chinese side now as they are getting the spin offs of the property investment / infrastructure projects. They don't expect any charity from the west and for now have made their positions known they would like the Chinese $$$ to continue flowing which in a clear distinct way is probably how everyone likes it...you want the Chinese $$$ but you don't have to like the CCP or their ways. I think that's fair.

I can see Myanmar returning back in a decade as the democratic government of Aung has yet to establish any international credibility in its reforms of the muslims / karen situation and won't change possibly in the near future knowing the cultural complexity there.

As of now, no one is challenging them on its human rights record as they are the darling post of the west in its proclaimed success of democracy and western investments and this is just being lame is as the west have been hammering the military governors in the past for this same thing and now strangely quiet because Obama hugged Aung and everyone wants to hug her so all of a sudden because she won and is symbol of the west winning against military / communist rule, those issues are not worth talking about anymore.

One would chuckle as it could easily head back towards a military rule when all the investments is completed in a decade and provided more funds to close the doors again. (the military have kept the back door open for themselves)

There are many turns here with the Chinese having the ability to lead the change in a positive way and learn from the SCS incident.

I am hoping having seen how the SCS incident turned out and like the yellow Umbrella movement incident in HK. the CCP is learning how far the international boundaries can be managed while sticking to its core ideology of being a communist government.

One of the core principals should remain the same, focus on trade , not war to win the countries over eventually and slowly while not losing any interests of the Chinese.

ASEAN countries is negotiating from a position of power because they know they know they are playing chairs of fancy with Japan, USA and China ...all giants that can give them great financial gains if they spin this correctly and keep all sides happy at one point of time to the other. The Chinese being traders are not used to this new turn where they have to court someone .....but learning fast that this is just the way they may have to do it if they want to stay relevant in ASEAN as these countries are best at extracting financial support for decades from the west by playing the weak card.

[boomerangutang]

There are many turns here with the Chinese having the ability to lead the change in a positive way and learn from the SCS incident.

I am hoping having seen how the SCS incident turned out and like the yellow Umbrella movement incident in HK. the CCP is learning how far the international boundaries can be managed while sticking to its core ideology of being a communist government.

The two phrases, above, which I bolded, indicate that the SCS problem is behind us. It's not. It's still boiling.

It's an on-going and simple scenario: Chinese military came to Fil territories (disguised as civilians/fishermen) clandestinely, and asserted ownership. There was/is no legal basis for Chinese ownership. The int'l tribunal confirmed that unequivocally Chinese bullies knew months before the announcement that they would lose, that's why they didn't even send reps and announced beforehand that they wouldn't abide by the findings from a treaty they're a signatory to.

China is as tenacious as ever, though their tenaciousness is getting more desperate because they know they're wrong, and it's clear the international community knows they're wrong. No if's and's or but's about it. Chinese occupiers should abandon their plans and sail back to China. Anything less will provoke military action.

[geriatrickid]

Takes time to understand the Asian minds Boomer...how important face revolves around here. You live in CR....surely the folks there are more conservative compared to the Bangkok / Phuket folks.

I wont claim I understand the Americans as I clearly don't get some of the things they get.

Personally nothing against the americans as I have close friends there...but some of the habits, lawsuits, gun fights, black friday sales behaviour ....these are things I don't get as much as I don't understand american football and probably will never will.

Yes, and it takes time for westerners to understand the Chinese ease with which it slaughters its own citizens, incarcerates without due process, and harvests the organs of prisoners without their convent. China doesn't care about any other nation except itself. There is no foreign aid without the intent to gain resources. This is quite different than what one sees with many western nations. Australia, Canada, Sweden, Finland, Denmark etc. all give generously and do not expect impoverished nations to pay back with blood.

The world is now seeing just how dangerous China is. It is a nation that spies and steals from others. And yet those victims willingly prostitute themselves. Australia and Canada are 2 examples. China will expand and will do so without hesitation. It tried to bully Vietnam once before and lost. It is trying to do so with the Philippines and it will probably succeed because the Philippinnes are like many westerners countries and will sell its assets for money. It's time to stop the Chinese infection now and that can only be done by not purchasing Chinese exports.

[craigt3365]

I wont claim I understand the Americans as I clearly don't get some of the things they get.

Personally nothing against the americans as I have close friends there...but some of the habits, lawsuits, gun fights, black friday sales behaviour ....these are things I don't get as much as I don't understand american football and probably will never will.

Many Americans don't understand those habits also! America, like China, is a very diverse country.

[ddavidovsky]

Reading all these posts. Still nobody gets it. This is not some irksome diplomatic spat. It's history happening.

History hasn't become fixed. Some of the lines on the map are arbitrary. Much territory is still disputed. Some grabs will be made, especially by expanding nations. China is an expanding nation.

China is a fascist government (not communist since Mao died) that will not be swayed by world opinion. The Chinese are acting like bullies, but since when has morality dictated history?

China also has a historical sense of oppression it wants to 'avenge'.

Some countries' hands are tied because they have done exactly the same thing in the past (like the UK and France, which still control swathes of remote territory that are closer to other nations).

The surrounding SCS countries have done nothing to 'deserve' this chunk of unpopulated territory, have not developed it any way (and cannot). THey claim it just because they are closest on the map.

Nor was anything done to prevent China getting their foot in the door - even when it was perfectly clear they had started reclaiming land. Nobody did nothing. They failed. They lost.

China is big enough and confident enough to know that no one will engage it in war.

You could try to bring down the fascist Chinese government by boycotting all trade with China and crashing their economy, causing the people to rise up. However, the world is addicted to cheap Chinese goods so that won't happen, and one must worry about the hornet's nest of regional divisions that China will become afterwards - there is a reason they have an authoritarian government.

These are the practical truths of the situation. Some people are here prepared to hurl the world towards war over this. It's a galling situation but we don't want another war - especially with the world currently in an insecure, neurotic state, that could potentially escalate it. I suggest the SCS countries take a long hard look at themselves, and the rest of world give an enormous diplomatic shrug.

[craigt3365]

Reading all these posts. Still nobody gets it. This is not some irksome diplomatic spat. It's history happening.

History hasn't become fixed. Some of the lines on the map are arbitrary. Much territory is still disputed. Some grabs will be made, especially by expanding nations. China is an expanding nation.

China is a fascist government (not communist since Mao died) that will not be swayed by world opinion. The Chinese are acting like bullies, but since when has morality dictated history?

China also has a historical sense of oppression it wants to 'avenge'.

Some countries' hands are tied because they have done exactly the same thing in the past (like the UK and France, which still control swathes of remote territory that are closer to other nations).

The surrounding SCS countries have done nothing to 'deserve' this chunk of unpopulated territory, have not developed it any way (and cannot). THey claim it just because they are closest on the map.

Nor was anything done to prevent China getting their foot in the door - even when it was perfectly clear they had started reclaiming land. Nobody did nothing. They failed. They lost.

China is big enough and confident enough to know that no one will engage it in war.

You could try to bring down the fascist Chinese government by boycotting all trade with China and crashing their economy, causing the people to rise up. However, the world is addicted to cheap Chinese goods so that won't happen, and one must worry about the hornet's nest of regional divisions that China will become afterwards - there is a reason they have an authoritarian government.

These are the practical truths of the situation. Some people are here prepared to hurl the world towards war over this. It's a galling situation but we don't want another war - especially with the world currently in an insecure, neurotic state, that could potentially escalate it. I suggest the SCS countries take a long hard look at themselves, and the rest of world give an enormous diplomatic shrug.

You are right. Some don't do their research.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_in_the_South_China_Sea

The Philippines began exploring the areas west of Palawan for oil in 1970. Exploration in the area began in Reed Bank/Tablemount.[18] in 1976, gas was discovered following the drilling of a well.[19] However, China's complaints halted the exploration.

On 27 March 1984, the first Philippine oil company discovered an oil field off Palawan, which is an island province bordering the South China Sea and the Sulu Sea.[20] These oil fields supply 15% of annual oil consumption in the Philippines.[citation needed]

[Publicus]

It is wrong to say nobody gets it or that anyone is missing history being made. This had been posted previously to this very thread as it states exactly what this is all about. The Tribunal in The Hague ruled days after the statement had been made, but it was not the first or only time the statement has been made...

Pentagon says Hague ruling to determine Asia-Pacific's future

The upcoming ruling of a United Nations (UN) arbitral tribunal in The Hague, Netherlands will determine the future of the Asia-Pacific region, a United States Department of Defense (DoD) official said.

US Deputy Secretary of Defense for East Asia Abraham Denmark said that the forthcoming decision of the international arbitral tribunal will mark an important crossroads for the region.

"It will present an opportunity for those in the region to determine whether the Asia-Pacific’s future will be defined by adherence to international laws and norms that have enabled it to prosper or that the region’s future will be determined by raw calculations of power," Denmark said at a joint hearing of two subcommittees at the US Department of Defense last week.

http://www.philstar....pacifics-future

Others from this region and who believe surreptitious incrementalism will succeed in economics and finance when it has just been proved a failure in geostrategic terms in the SCS continue to have 21st century lessons to learn. (The SCS challenges will continue, however, it could appear we've turned the corner on it as CCP are coughing up fish.)

In respect of India, which supports Asean et al and the United States...

The Chinese 'Century' Is Already Over

"Both the world’s most populous democracy and its most powerful one are now viewing China in darker terms—and beginning to act accordingly."

Gordon G. Chang

May 19, 2015

Further, those who smugly predict that ten years from now Myanmar will return to its past dictatorship after supposedly suckering the West and USA, to then kiss up to the dictatorship in Beijing again, continue to live in their own world of Central Kingdom fantasies and compulsive wand waving. This is the 21st century so if youse guyz can get yourselves into our 20th century past, then you'd deserve a medal for that alone.

The one and only reason there won't be any more Tiananmen Massacres in CCP China is because of our reaction against it, to include in Hong Kong and Taiwan and throughout Asean, not because of any CCP conscience, morality, civility.

China is trying to become a regional power, which is all it ever was at its highest point in history. No dice however cause the region won't have it. China is a prospective global power not a present global power, and China is certainly not a superpower.

Despite all the CCP investments in Asean countries and Japanese investment in CCP, and trade, and finance, and economics, all of the region has stood up to the CCP neighbor from hell in the SCS contest. The whole region will continue stand against CCP China no matter how much money the Chinese throw around, and this is true because the CCP and its Boyz everywhere just don't get it about China.

Asean opposes China in the SCS and it welcomes the USA in to it. Youse guyz can't get that at all can you.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Publicus

[LawrenceChee]

There are many turns here with the Chinese having the ability to lead the change in a positive way and learn from the SCS incident.

I am hoping having seen how the SCS incident turned out and like the yellow Umbrella movement incident in HK. the CCP is learning how far the international boundaries can be managed while sticking to its core ideology of being a communist government.

The two phrases, above, which I bolded, indicate that the SCS problem is behind us. It's not. It's still boiling.

It's an on-going and simple scenario: Chinese military came to Fil territories (disguised as civilians/fishermen) clandestinely, and asserted ownership. There was/is no legal basis for Chinese ownership. The int'l tribunal confirmed that unequivocally Chinese bullies knew months before the announcement that they would lose, that's why they didn't even send reps and announced beforehand that they wouldn't abide by the findings from a treaty they're a signatory to.

China is as tenacious as ever, though their tenaciousness is getting more desperate because they know they're wrong, and it's clear the international community knows they're wrong. No if's and's or but's about it. Chinese occupiers should abandon their plans and sail back to China. Anything less will provoke military action.

I think you are describing some other countries here boomer....and yes we get it by now your really want military action to take place and probably itching for it....not going to happen.

Annoying right ?

[LawrenceChee]

It is wrong to say nobody gets it or that anyone is missing history being made. This had been posted previously to this very thread as it states exactly what this is all about. The Tribunal in The Hague ruled days after the statement had been made, but it was not the first or only time the statement has been made...

Pentagon says Hague ruling to determine Asia-Pacific's future

The upcoming ruling of a United Nations (UN) arbitral tribunal in The Hague, Netherlands will determine the future of the Asia-Pacific region, a United States Department of Defense (DoD) official said.

US Deputy Secretary of Defense for East Asia Abraham Denmark said that the forthcoming decision of the international arbitral tribunal will mark an important crossroads for the region.

"It will present an opportunity for those in the region to determine whether the Asia-Pacific’s future will be defined by adherence to international laws and norms that have enabled it to prosper or that the region’s future will be determined by raw calculations of power," Denmark said at a joint hearing of two subcommittees at the US Department of Defense last week.

http://www.philstar....pacifics-future

Others from this region and who believe surreptitious incrementalism will succeed in economics and finance when it has just been proved a failure in geostrategic terms in the SCS continue to have 21st century lessons to learn. (The SCS challenges will continue, however, it could appear we've turned the corner on it as CCP are coughing up fish.)

In respect of India, which supports Asean et al and the United States...

The Chinese 'Century' Is Already Over

"Both the world’s most populous democracy and its most powerful one are now viewing China in darker terms—and beginning to act accordingly."

Gordon G. Chang

May 19, 2015

Further, those who smugly predict that ten years from now Myanmar will return to its past dictatorship after supposedly suckering the West and USA, to then kiss up to the dictatorship in Beijing again, continue to live in their own world of Central Kingdom fantasies and compulsive wand waving. This is the 21st century so if youse guyz can get yourselves into our 20th century past, then you'd deserve a medal for that alone.

The one and only reason there won't be any more Tiananmen Massacres in CCP China is because of our reaction against it, to include in Hong Kong and Taiwan and throughout Asean, not because of any CCP conscience, morality, civility.

China is trying to become a regional power, which is all it ever was at its highest point in history. No dice however cause the region won't have it. China is a prospective global power not a present global power, and China is certainly not a superpower.

Despite all the CCP investments in Asean countries and Japanese investment in CCP, and trade, and finance, and economics, all of the region has stood up to the CCP neighbor from hell in the SCS contest. The whole region will continue stand against CCP China no matter how much money the Chinese throw around, and this is true because the CCP and its Boyz everywhere just don't get it about China.

Asean opposes China in the SCS and it welcomes the USA in to it. Youse guyz can't get that at all can you.

This is a great example of a bigot hater ......everything China does is hateful, it's wrong...every intend is because the USA has applied pressure and won ....this is bordering on being a nutcase and I will gladly take a suspension for saying this right in your face....

Get a grip in life...thank god you are not in the foreign ministry...the USA would be in more wars than what it already currently is in.

when you can accept USA is a fading superpower...you may actually realised the Chinese is bigger than you think...but you are a bigot and you wont get this....so sparring with you is increasing getting tiring because you believe insults and missiles work where you have no real reality of the difficulty in governance and your current government is not a shining example really.

For saying this and having it 5 mins here before the mods take it off...I think it's worth whatever that is coming.

[Publicus]

It is wrong to say nobody gets it or that anyone is missing history being made. This had been posted previously to this very thread as it states exactly what this is all about. The Tribunal in The Hague ruled days after the statement had been made, but it was not the first or only time the statement has been made...

Pentagon says Hague ruling to determine Asia-Pacific's future

The upcoming ruling of a United Nations (UN) arbitral tribunal in The Hague, Netherlands will determine the future of the Asia-Pacific region, a United States Department of Defense (DoD) official said.

US Deputy Secretary of Defense for East Asia Abraham Denmark said that the forthcoming decision of the international arbitral tribunal will mark an important crossroads for the region.

"It will present an opportunity for those in the region to determine whether the Asia-Pacific’s future will be defined by adherence to international laws and norms that have enabled it to prosper or that the region’s future will be determined by raw calculations of power," Denmark said at a joint hearing of two subcommittees at the US Department of Defense last week.

http://www.philstar....pacifics-future

Others from this region and who believe surreptitious incrementalism will succeed in economics and finance when it has just been proved a failure in geostrategic terms in the SCS continue to have 21st century lessons to learn. (The SCS challenges will continue, however, it could appear we've turned the corner on it as CCP are coughing up fish.)

In respect of India, which supports Asean et al and the United States...

The Chinese 'Century' Is Already Over

"Both the world’s most populous democracy and its most powerful one are now viewing China in darker terms—and beginning to act accordingly."

Gordon G. Chang

May 19, 2015

Further, those who smugly predict that ten years from now Myanmar will return to its past dictatorship after supposedly suckering the West and USA, to then kiss up to the dictatorship in Beijing again, continue to live in their own world of Central Kingdom fantasies and compulsive wand waving. This is the 21st century so if youse guyz can get yourselves into our 20th century past, then you'd deserve a medal for that alone.

The one and only reason there won't be any more Tiananmen Massacres in CCP China is because of our reaction against it, to include in Hong Kong and Taiwan and throughout Asean, not because of any CCP conscience, morality, civility.

China is trying to become a regional power, which is all it ever was at its highest point in history. No dice however cause the region won't have it. China is a prospective global power not a present global power, and China is certainly not a superpower.

Despite all the CCP investments in Asean countries and Japanese investment in CCP, and trade, and finance, and economics, all of the region has stood up to the CCP neighbor from hell in the SCS contest. The whole region will continue stand against CCP China no matter how much money the Chinese throw around, and this is true because the CCP and its Boyz everywhere just don't get it about China.

Asean opposes China in the SCS and it welcomes the USA in to it. Youse guyz can't get that at all can you.

This is a great example of a bigot hater ......everything China does is hateful, it's wrong...every intend is because the USA has applied pressure and won ....this is bordering on being a nutcase and I will gladly take a suspension for saying this right in your face....

Get a grip in life...thank god you are not in the foreign ministry...the USA would be in more wars than what it already currently is in.

when you can accept USA is a fading superpower...you may actually realised the Chinese is bigger than you think...but you are a bigot and you wont get this....so sparring with you is increasing getting tiring because you believe insults and missiles work where you have no real reality of the difficulty in governance and your current government is not a shining example really.

For saying this and having it 5 mins here before the mods take it off...I think it's worth whatever that is coming.

No problem here Lawrence.

The post is a signed confession that the side over there has lost. The UN Tribunal on the ILOS, aka the Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague, issued exactly that ruling. I'm just discussing it in the context of CCP Dictators in Beijing rejecting and denouncing the ILOS, the Tribunal and its ruling.

My post you quote about there being either the rule of law or the law of the jungle in the sea points out the significance of the ILOS, the Tribunal and its ruling, and the USA committing its Navy and Air Forces to the particular contest between CCP Dictators in their attempt to destroy Asean and the UNCLOS. Asean is supported additionally by the entire region from Japan to India to include Australia.

US Navy and Air Forces have been in the Pacific-Asia-Indian Ocean strategic region to include the SCS since the end of World War II which, as we recall, was an Air-Sea and island war. It liberated China from enemy occupation and possession.

CCP klutzes are isolated from the region and the world because they have in their inane Central Kingdom thinking and actions isolated themselves.

Your post has the value and importance of pointing out the fact. CCP just took tremendous heat during the three-day Asia-Europe Meeting in Mongolia and CCP is presently taking huge heat in Laos at the Asean foreign ministers meeting which will be followed immediately by the Asean Regional Forum to include USA, China, Japan, UK, Canada, Australia among a few others such as India.

So I don't have any problem with your post as it contributes to the discussion. You might want to get a grip though cause I do know how hard it is for CCP to find out what they believe is not true or real. In short, welcome to the 21st century, which is the New American Century.

[LawrenceChee]

It is wrong to say nobody gets it or that anyone is missing history being made. This had been posted previously to this very thread as it states exactly what this is all about. The Tribunal in The Hague ruled days after the statement had been made, but it was not the first or only time the statement has been made...

Pentagon says Hague ruling to determine Asia-Pacific's future

The upcoming ruling of a United Nations (UN) arbitral tribunal in The Hague, Netherlands will determine the future of the Asia-Pacific region, a United States Department of Defense (DoD) official said.

US Deputy Secretary of Defense for East Asia Abraham Denmark said that the forthcoming decision of the international arbitral tribunal will mark an important crossroads for the region.

"It will present an opportunity for those in the region to determine whether the Asia-Pacific’s future will be defined by adherence to international laws and norms that have enabled it to prosper or that the region’s future will be determined by raw calculations of power," Denmark said at a joint hearing of two subcommittees at the US Department of Defense last week.

http://www.philstar....pacifics-future

Others from this region and who believe surreptitious incrementalism will succeed in economics and finance when it has just been proved a failure in geostrategic terms in the SCS continue to have 21st century lessons to learn. (The SCS challenges will continue, however, it could appear we've turned the corner on it as CCP are coughing up fish.)

In respect of India, which supports Asean et al and the United States...

The Chinese 'Century' Is Already Over

"Both the world’s most populous democracy and its most powerful one are now viewing China in darker terms—and beginning to act accordingly."

Gordon G. Chang

May 19, 2015

Further, those who smugly predict that ten years from now Myanmar will return to its past dictatorship after supposedly suckering the West and USA, to then kiss up to the dictatorship in Beijing again, continue to live in their own world of Central Kingdom fantasies and compulsive wand waving. This is the 21st century so if youse guyz can get yourselves into our 20th century past, then you'd deserve a medal for that alone.

The one and only reason there won't be any more Tiananmen Massacres in CCP China is because of our reaction against it, to include in Hong Kong and Taiwan and throughout Asean, not because of any CCP conscience, morality, civility.

China is trying to become a regional power, which is all it ever was at its highest point in history. No dice however cause the region won't have it. China is a prospective global power not a present global power, and China is certainly not a superpower.

Despite all the CCP investments in Asean countries and Japanese investment in CCP, and trade, and finance, and economics, all of the region has stood up to the CCP neighbor from hell in the SCS contest. The whole region will continue stand against CCP China no matter how much money the Chinese throw around, and this is true because the CCP and its Boyz everywhere just don't get it about China.

Asean opposes China in the SCS and it welcomes the USA in to it. Youse guyz can't get that at all can you.

This is a great example of a bigot hater ......everything China does is hateful, it's wrong...every intend is because the USA has applied pressure and won ....this is bordering on being a nutcase and I will gladly take a suspension for saying this right in your face....

Get a grip in life...thank god you are not in the foreign ministry...the USA would be in more wars than what it already currently is in.

when you can accept USA is a fading superpower...you may actually realised the Chinese is bigger than you think...but you are a bigot and you wont get this....so sparring with you is increasing getting tiring because you believe insults and missiles work where you have no real reality of the difficulty in governance and your current government is not a shining example really.

For saying this and having it 5 mins here before the mods take it off...I think it's worth whatever that is coming.

No problem here Lawrence.

The post is a signed confession that the side over there has lost. The UN Tribunal on the ILOS, aka the Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague, issued exactly that ruling. I'm just discussing it in the context of CCP Dictators in Beijing rejecting and denouncing the ILOS, the Tribunal and its ruling.

My post you quote about there being either the rule of law or the law of the jungle in the sea points out the significance of the ILOS, the Tribunal and its ruling, and the USA committing its Navy and Air Forces to the particular contest between CCP Dictators in their attempt to destroy Asean and the UNCLOS. Asean is supported additionally by the entire region from Japan to India to include Australia.

US Navy and Air Forces have been in the Pacific-Asia-Indian Ocean strategic region to include the SCS since the end of World War II which, as we recall, was an Air-Sea and island war. It liberated China from enemy occupation and possession.

CCP klutzes are isolated from the region and the world because they have in their inane Central Kingdom thinking and actions isolated themselves.

Your post has the value and importance of pointing out the fact. CCP just took tremendous heat during the three-day Asia-Europe Meeting in Mongolia and CCP is presently taking huge heat in Laos at the Asean foreign ministers meeting which will be followed immediately by the Asean Regional Forum to include USA, China, Japan, UK, Canada, Australia among a few others such as India.

So I don't have any problem with your post as it contributes to the discussion. You might want to get a grip though cause I do know how hard it is for CCP to find out what they believe is not true or real. In short, welcome to the 21st century, which is the New American Century.

Not with the Philippines team I was discussing business with...still the same business talk...isolation is what the world may like to see but connectivity and reality and pragmatism works in the business world...

I'm afraid I don't live very well in this 21st century thing...unlike you, I don't subscribe in ultimate powers...I liked balanced approaches and most of my posts deviate towards that and there are a lot out in China who believes in that and a whole lot more who really don't care what happens everyday out there in these islands or politics...they are more keen to know if their kids / family is happy and healthy.

The New American Century is a pipe dream ...much like unicorns and fairies...but my son is watching a lot on elf stories lately ...so perhaps this is where that new american century dream of yours belong to...

[ilostmypassword]

It is wrong to say nobody gets it or that anyone is missing history being made. This had been posted previously to this very thread as it states exactly what this is all about. The Tribunal in The Hague ruled days after the statement had been made, but it was not the first or only time the statement has been made...

Pentagon says Hague ruling to determine Asia-Pacific's future

The upcoming ruling of a United Nations (UN) arbitral tribunal in The Hague, Netherlands will determine the future of the Asia-Pacific region, a United States Department of Defense (DoD) official said.

US Deputy Secretary of Defense for East Asia Abraham Denmark said that the forthcoming decision of the international arbitral tribunal will mark an important crossroads for the region.

"It will present an opportunity for those in the region to determine whether the Asia-Pacific’s future will be defined by adherence to international laws and norms that have enabled it to prosper or that the region’s future will be determined by raw calculations of power," Denmark said at a joint hearing of two subcommittees at the US Department of Defense last week.

http://www.philstar....pacifics-future

Others from this region and who believe surreptitious incrementalism will succeed in economics and finance when it has just been proved a failure in geostrategic terms in the SCS continue to have 21st century lessons to learn. (The SCS challenges will continue, however, it could appear we've turned the corner on it as CCP are coughing up fish.)

In respect of India, which supports Asean et al and the United States...

The Chinese 'Century' Is Already Over

"Both the world’s most populous democracy and its most powerful one are now viewing China in darker terms—and beginning to act accordingly."

Gordon G. Chang

May 19, 2015

Further, those who smugly predict that ten years from now Myanmar will return to its past dictatorship after supposedly suckering the West and USA, to then kiss up to the dictatorship in Beijing again, continue to live in their own world of Central Kingdom fantasies and compulsive wand waving. This is the 21st century so if youse guyz can get yourselves into our 20th century past, then you'd deserve a medal for that alone.

The one and only reason there won't be any more Tiananmen Massacres in CCP China is because of our reaction against it, to include in Hong Kong and Taiwan and throughout Asean, not because of any CCP conscience, morality, civility.

China is trying to become a regional power, which is all it ever was at its highest point in history. No dice however cause the region won't have it. China is a prospective global power not a present global power, and China is certainly not a superpower.

Despite all the CCP investments in Asean countries and Japanese investment in CCP, and trade, and finance, and economics, all of the region has stood up to the CCP neighbor from hell in the SCS contest. The whole region will continue stand against CCP China no matter how much money the Chinese throw around, and this is true because the CCP and its Boyz everywhere just don't get it about China.

Asean opposes China in the SCS and it welcomes the USA in to it. Youse guyz can't get that at all can you.

This is a great example of a bigot hater ......everything China does is hateful, it's wrong...every intend is because the USA has applied pressure and won ....this is bordering on being a nutcase and I will gladly take a suspension for saying this right in your face....

Get a grip in life...thank god you are not in the foreign ministry...the USA would be in more wars than what it already currently is in.

when you can accept USA is a fading superpower...you may actually realised the Chinese is bigger than you think...but you are a bigot and you wont get this....so sparring with you is increasing getting tiring because you believe insults and missiles work where you have no real reality of the difficulty in governance and your current government is not a shining example really.

For saying this and having it 5 mins here before the mods take it off...I think it's worth whatever that is coming.

What I find most disturbing about China's territorial acquisitions, is the irrationality of it. As you have repeatedly pointed out, China has lots of cash to offer for development in nations such as the Philippines, Indonesia, and Vietnam. What does China gain by antagonizing its neighbors? Just by proximity and the size of the Chinese economy, these nations would naturally enter into all kinds of major partnerships with China. In fact, I think China chose the only possible way to derail this development by their hostile takeover of islands and reefs that clearly they have no legitimate claim to. Maybe it has to do with the humiliations China endured at the hands of various Western nations and even more so the humiliation and mass slaughter at the hands of the Japanese? But whatever the reasons, they've created a nationalist juggernaut that it will be difficult for the leadership to put a halt to. And that's what makes this so scary. Your faith in the rationality of the Chinese leadership is clearly not well founded.

And just as a side note, you claimed somewhere that President Duterte is not a thug. Unfortunately, he is. Which is unfortunate not only for China but for the Filipinos as well.

[LawrenceChee]

It's really a very big committee and there is a lot of disagreement between the committees. Much as everyone without the internal knowings believe it is a rubber stamp committee and there is no opinions and everyone is brainwashed, the reality is there is a lot of intellects, military proponents , business driven individuals, strategists, bureaucrats and the mixture means at times it's not always a rational decision made.

One can track the progress in ASEAN and largely it went well till the last 2 years when the internal pressure of the financials and slow growth crept in....I will say in a balanced way China has a lot of governance success and it is also in some ways more stifled as the hybrid identity of capitalism / communism is a hard one to define.

I can see them recovering and it will take a lot of efforts from China to head back into ASEAN and do it correctly. I cannot foresee what will happen next but understanding the complexity in ASEAN, the advantages is ASEAN has never been really united. The mix of communism , city states like Singapore which are largely rich and the developing ones that are really poor....it has never found any common ground more than a tag of AEC etc. Most countries still work independently or collaborate on smaller projects to give it a sense of unity.

[Publicus]

It's really a very big committee and there is a lot of disagreement between the committees. Much as everyone without the internal knowings believe it is a rubber stamp committee and there is no opinions and everyone is brainwashed, the reality is there is a lot of intellects, military proponents , business driven individuals, strategists, bureaucrats and the mixture means at times it's not always a rational decision made.

One can track the progress in ASEAN and largely it went well till the last 2 years when the internal pressure of the financials and slow growth crept in....I will say in a balanced way China has a lot of governance success and it is also in some ways more stifled as the hybrid identity of capitalism / communism is a hard one to define.

I can see them recovering and it will take a lot of efforts from China to head back into ASEAN and do it correctly. I cannot foresee what will happen next but understanding the complexity in ASEAN, the advantages is ASEAN has never been really united. The mix of communism , city states like Singapore which are largely rich and the developing ones that are really poor....it has never found any common ground more than a tag of AEC etc. Most countries still work independently or collaborate on smaller projects to give it a sense of unity.

CCP have only contempt of the ten small fish of SE Asia trying to become a bigger fish as Asean.

Although CCP has taken severe gas in their SCS nonsense, led by the Philippines going legal at The Hague, CCP has realised tremendous satisfaction toward fracturing and eventually disassembling Asean.

CCP continue to look down on the small states of SE Asia as rightfully tributary states or, in more modern terms, Chinese satellite states. They've all got Chinese people in 'em and in the elites across the board, which makes 'em a part of China anyway so may as well make it official by redrawing borders to include a long dip in China's southern boundary.

Another broad sweeping dashed line this time on land southward to Singapore. PCA has rather upset things for the Boyz however, presently in SCS and down the road concerning the SE Asia peninsula. Because the Boyz never anticipated a judicial intervention, the Boyz can't yet figure whether they should act quickly or take it slowly. In other words, CCP don't know any more whether they're coming or going in all of this mess the klutzes themselves have created.

[tonbridgebrit]

Yes, and it takes time for westerners to understand the Chinese ease with which it slaughters its own citizens, incarcerates without due process, and harvests the organs of prisoners without their convent. China doesn't care about any other nation except itself. There is no foreign aid without the intent to gain resources. This is quite different than what one sees with many western nations. Australia, Canada, Sweden, Finland, Denmark etc. all give generously and do not expect impoverished nations to pay back with blood.

The world is now seeing just how dangerous China is. It is a nation that spies and steals from others. And yet those victims willingly prostitute themselves. Australia and Canada are 2 examples. China will expand and will do so without hesitation. It tried to bully Vietnam once before and lost. It is trying to do so with the Philippines and it will probably succeed because the Philippinnes are like many westerners countries and will sell its assets for money. It's time to stop the Chinese infection now and that can only be done by not purchasing Chinese exports.

This post really does give me a smirk on my face !

"And yet those victims willingly prostitute themselves. Australia and Canada are 2 examples."

You reckon Ausralia and Canada are two examples of countries who willingly prostitute themselves ? I think you should look at all the stuff at Wal Mart, and ask yourself about who else is a prostitute. Actually, who else is the biggest prostitute of all. Myself, I don't think people who buy goods from China (or who export raw materials) are prostitutes.

"It's time to stop the Chinese infection now and that can only be done by not purchasing Chinese exports."

And you want to tell people to NOT buy Chinese goods ? I will carry on buying Chinese goods, and so will most people in Europe and America.

Some of them Washington cheerleaders you see here on ThaiVisa. They hate Trump, they love Hillary Clinton, they will not support Trump, even though Trump wants to partially block the Chinese goods entering America.

[boomerangutang]

What I find most disturbing about China's territorial acquisitions, is the irrationality of it. As you have repeatedly pointed out, China has lots of cash to offer for development in nations such as the Philippines, Indonesia, and Vietnam. What does China gain by antagonizing its neighbors? Just by proximity and the size of the Chinese economy, these nations would naturally enter into all kinds of major partnerships with China. In fact, I think China chose the only possible way to derail this development by their hostile takeover of islands and reefs that clearly they have no legitimate claim to. Maybe it has to do with the humiliations China endured at the hands of various Western nations and even more so the humiliation and mass slaughter at the hands of the Japanese? But whatever the reasons, they've created a nationalist juggernaut that it will be difficult for the leadership to put a halt to. And that's what makes this so scary. Your faith in the rationality of the Chinese leadership is clearly not well founded.

And just as a side note, you claimed somewhere that President Duterte is not a thug. Unfortunately, he is. Which is unfortunate not only for China but for the Filipinos as well.

Good post! I fully agree. If China wants to dominate the region, it needs to revamp its modus operandi. It can't help equating everything with money, that's a deep-set Chinese tradition. Yet, it can still engage in laying the groundwork for human-friendly and environmentally-friendly interactions. Here are some suggestions, for things Chinese could do to improve relations with their neighbors:

>>> Allow N.Koreans passage to S.Korea (don't jail 'em or throw them back to the lions' den)

>>> Allow Uighurs more control over their territory

>>> Quit coveting Taiwan. Accept what everyone else in the world has accepted for 55 years: Taiwan is a country.

>>> Quit coveting territory and causing problems along the Himalayan range where it borders India.

>>> Leave Tibet to the Tibetans.

>>> Allow Falong Gong and other non-harmful belief systems to talk about what they want

>>> Acknowledge what happened at Tienamen Square, and compensate families for the murder of their kids.

on a more international level:

>>> enable/facilitate environmental improvements: more parks, less damming of rivers (Salween and Mekong, in particular, from a SE Asian perspective).

>>> student/idea exchanges relating to environmental issues like alternative energy, habitat restoration, .....rather than money money money issues.

>>> people to people (rather than business to business) interactions re; sports, parks, ecosystem rehabilitation, animal/plant species husbandry, language, summer camps for children, crafts, music, dance, art.

Unfortunately, everything China does has to involve money. I don't expect Chinese to embrace concepts like 'Burning Man' (celebrating creativity, alternative energy, no-money exchanges, open & free dialogue), but at least they could become more human, and less like money-crazed robotrons. In balance, I could find reams of problems with things/people in western countries. Yet China is behind the 8 ball. It needs to humanize its perspective on the world, and not base all their policies on fear, face and money.

[boomerangutang]

Some of them Washington cheerleaders you see here on ThaiVisa. They hate Trump, they love Hillary Clinton, they will not support Trump, even though Trump wants to partially block the Chinese goods entering America.

I'm not sure what you're trying to convey, above. Let me say, however, I resided in Washington D.C. for many years, and it's got many attributes. But I say that tongue-in-cheek because I know you're not dissing residents of the Nation's Capital, but instead referencing the political scene there. Incidentally, D.C. license plates used to say "Last Colony" on them. Reason: It's the only portion of the US where residents don't have representatives in Congress.

As for your 2nd sentence. Yes, I hate Trump. I don't love Hillary, but I like her ideas. As for the prez candidates in relation to China, that brings up some interesting concepts.

China knows HRC. They know she's tough and not afraid to speak her mind if she finds faults with Chinese policy. She's also good at her word. If she says she'll use military force to stand alongside their friends like the VN or Fils, Chinese leaders know she will do it.

Trump, on the other hand, is a loose cannon. The Chinese don't have a clue knowing what goes on in his mind, because he doesn't either. He flips ideas from one hour to the next. Trump could prove more of a threat to China than HRC if, for no other reason, he's a hot-head (does he do meds? Could that explain his red face and hot temper?). He might love you one minute. And then hate you enough in the next minute to launch Nukes. Then, a minute after launching, he might love you again, but by then it's bye bye to the missile which has flopped out of his small hands.

[boomerangutang]

Here's the latest response I got on Youtube (one of a dozen), to a post I made earlier, saying China should quit meddling in the SCS:

"aku lahtu

<deleted> your country....leave asian alone....get a rest...ur country have done a lot to spread ur freedom and democracy in middle east..."

Aku Lahtu is probably one of the tens of millions of Chinese who are paid (by Beijing controllers) to spend their waking hours combing the internet - in order to spread Chinese propaganda. Is it working? You tell me.

Note the first word of Aku's note will probably be censored out by Thai Visa bot, but it's spelled f - u - k- k.