Beijing refuses to accept Hague ruling over South China Sea territorial claims

[Publicus]

CCP Dictators have decided due to the PCA rulings they need to calm things down for a while. This was the unmistakable realisation CCP got last week from the Asia-Europe Meeting in Mongolia where PM Li Keqiang took tremendous heat from the Europeans and East Asians, and Japanese PM Abe in particular who Li told to butt out.

Discord over South China Sea clouds Asia-Europe summit

The closing statement said leaders reaffirmed a commitment to promote maritime security, safety and cooperation, freedom of navigation and overflight and to refrain from using threatening force.

"Britain, France and Germany wanted to make clear that Beijing must uphold international law as it seeks a bigger global role," a Mongolian diplomat said, adding that "negotiations over the closing statement were intense”.

http://atimes.com/2016/07/discord-over-south-china-sea-clouds-asia-europe-summit/

ASEAN foreign ministers are meeting today, Sunday in Laos to decide on a draft statement written by the Philippines, Singapore and Indonesia. The draft says ASEAN will fully respect legal and diplomatic procedures as a means to solve disputes, which CCP agents Cambodia and Laos who also reject the PCA rulings objected to strongly. Cambodia especially opposed the draft's criticisms of land reclamations by Beijing in its creating of (seven) artificial islands.

Tomorrow, Monday, Asean foreign ministers will hold meetings with foreign ministers of Japan, China and the U.S one at a time during which different Asean countries will support or criticise each country's FM, so a sequence of indoor fireworks are expected throughout the day.

Tuesday, a meeting of the ASEAN Regional Forum will discuss security to include CCP, Japan, South Korea, USA, Russia, North Korea and the EU so nearly everyone and their partners will be involved in what it expected to be a free for all that CCP will assure settles nothing and only aggravates tensions and hostilities.

CCP is thus between a rock and the deep blue sea, i.e., it needs calm ahead of the G-20 meeting in the CCP in September yet CCP remains absolute in its loud opposition to the Tribunal's rulings.

The only Asean country in the G-20 is Indonesia which has SCS disputes with CCP over its Natuna Islands which CCP claims overlap into its nine-dashed line the PCA negated as having no legal basis. CCP will have no power or influence over the G-20 taking Beijing to the woodshed on the SCS, the legitimacy of the PCA the UNCLOS, CCP's willful destruction of Asean and the great risks of CCP moving into Scarborough Shoal which both Phils and US have said is a no-go zone.

One important factor in CCP just withdrawing its surface to air missiles from Woody Island in the Paracels off Vietnam is to try to deflect Hanoi leaning toward giving the US Navy basing rights in Cam Ranh Bay which is a lot closer to the Paracels than is to the CCP.

CCP Coast Guard continues to blockade Phils fisherman from the Spratlys and Scarborough and Vietnamese fishermen from the Paracels while CCP fishing ships range far afield into EEZs throughout the SCS. (The new CCP fishing "boats" look more like naval vessels in their size and power.)

Edited July 24, 2016 by Publicus

[boomerangutang]

As Dan Fogerty of Credence Clearwater Revival might say; There's a bad moon a'risin'

[Publicus]

CCP Dictators suddenly got religion now that the heat is on 'em after the rulings of the PCA in The Hague turned Beijing into international outlaws and bandit aggressors in the South China Sea.

CCP has just hung a complete 180-degree turn to accept the Code of Conduct for the SCS as advocated and had been initiated by Asean since the 1990s. Beijing had finally signed the CoC in 2002 but trashed expanding it in Cambodia in 2012, as Hun Sen had held the CCP's coat throughout the Asean annual meeting there.

ASEAN, China reaffirm commitment to maintaining peace in South China Sea

Foreign ministers of ASEAN member countries and China have reaffirmed their commitment to maintaining peace and stability in the disputed South China Sea through the framework of the Declaration of Conduct of Parties (DOC), according a statement released on Monday.

"[ASEAN and China] are committed to the full and effective implementation of the Declaration of Conduct of Parties [DOC] in its entirety, and working substantively towards the early adoption of a Code of Conduct in the South China Sea [COC] based on consensus," said the joint statement, released from the ASEAN Ministerial Meeting currently taking place in Vientianne, Laos, where China is also in attendance.

The joint statement contains reaffirmations from the Southeast Asian organization and the East Asian giant on the importance of the DOC to all relevant parties.

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2016/07/25/asean-china-reaffirm-commitment-to-maintaining-peace-in-south-china-sea.html

FM Wang Yi none the less fiercely condemned the ruling of the PCA in The Hague, claiming wildly that the Tribunal and its decisions are invalid and illegitimate. So says the international outlaw and rogue state, the CCP China.

Edited July 25, 2016 by Publicus

[Publicus]

As Dan Fogerty of Credence Clearwater Revival might say; There's a bad moon a'risin'

Yep and CCP just got mooned.

CCP are getting it from all sides, from Europe to North America and by Asean right through to Japan, South Korea, Australia and New Zealand to include India all of which support the PCA and the UNCLOS against the outlaw CCP and their rogue state.

So it ain't over till it's over.

Negotiation on the Asean initiated SCS Code of Conduct will take time as will the Declaration on the Conduct of the Parties in the South China Sea. Asean now wants the CoC to be legally binding instead of simply a gentlemen's agreement among neighbors. That's cause Asean well knows CCP are the neighbors from hell so Asean needs to protect themselves against slimy neighbors crawling through the window in the middle of the night.

CCP thinks they can negotiate a trade deal and big packge to take control of the Phils economy but that too is another CCP pipe dream. Phils constitutionally can't sign anything with CCP that affects its EEZ and Scarborough Shoal, the Spratlys or anything SCS unless and until CCP recognise and honor the PCA rulings on the UNCLOS.

Busted again.

US btw just agreed to South Korea's repeated requests for the super high tech THAAD anti ballistic missile system to defend against North Korean missiles. THAAD will pick off any N Korean missiles launched at S Korea before the missiles get ten feet off the ground (well, a mile or so off the ground).

And with THAAD in S Korea under the control of the US Pacific Command and the US 7th Air Force in S Korea, the same will be true of any Chinese PLA missiles launched from anywhere in China at any time for any reason. The US decision is what it was always was going to be, i.e., shut down any missile offense from both North Korea and CCP China. Which means the world can sleep better tonight but especially so in Japan, Taiwan and throughout Asean across the South China Sea.

The other guyz are busted more than ever now.

Karma. Or as we say in American English, what goes around comes around.

[LawrenceChee]

I believe strongly the continued deployment of weaponry in this region does not help it.

My son at 5 years old walked passed a UNICEF poster today and asked me why the boy look so sad...I had to explain in some war torn areas, the children have no shelter, no food and not much schools to go to. He looks confused as he has not seen that in Thailand and of course has never experience hunger.

As such for me personally as a parent, I don't believe any racking up of tension is good.

I don't agree with the deployment of the THAAD as it's driving a mad Rottweiler more crazy and prodding him with a stick. He is controlled with a choke chain now....but if he breaks free....I don't think people in Japan, South Korea or anywhere will sleep easy. I don't want one night of peace...I want the place to be devoid of conflict.

The mad nut could shoot in a direction not expected and hit any part of China and that would mean a huge casualty rate as the cities in China is so densely populated.

China has kept him relatively calm but all these missiles are bad news and looking at history ...any country that first uses that as a deterrent is also in a position to launch the first strike.

China rightly is condemning the move as no superpower would want missiles pointing in their range....and yes I am going to wait 10 seconds for the first Taiwan comment....

Edited July 25, 2016 by LawrenceChee

[Publicus]

I believe strongly the continued deployment of weaponry in this region does not help it.

My son at 5 years old walked passed a UNICEF poster today and asked me why the boy look so sad...I had to explain in some war torn areas, the children have no shelter, no food and not much schools to go to. He looks confused as he has not seen that in Thailand and of course has never experience hunger.

As such for me personally as a parent, I don't believe any racking up of tension is good.

I don't agree with the deployment of the THAAD as it's driving a mad Rottweiler more crazy and prodding him with a stick. He is controlled with a choke chain now....but if he breaks free....I don't think people in Japan, South Korea or anywhere will sleep easy. I don't want one night of peace...I want the place to be devoid of conflict.

The mad nut could shoot in a direction not expected and hit any part of China and that would mean a huge casualty rate as the cities in China is so densely populated.

China has kept him relatively calm but all these missiles are bad news and looking at history ...any country that first uses that as a deterrent is also in a position to launch the first strike.

China rightly is condemning the move as no superpower would want missiles pointing in their range....and yes I am going to wait 10 seconds for the first Taiwan comment....

If one side might have room for some triumphalism the other side can certainly get sanctimonious. And yes, the PLA having upwards of 1100 missiles pointed at Taiwan across the Strait leaves little room for too much CCP sanctimony.

Terminal High Altitude Area Defense anti missile platform (THAAD) is a system of defense. It is an intercept weapons system to apply against incoming missiles. THAAD is not an offensive arms platform. CCP Boyz have nothing to fear from it and neither does its primary culprit Kim Jong Un. Had South Korea believed THAAD was a provocative weapons platform would they have pursued it so vigorously through last year until finally getting the green light on it from President Obama. S Korea does not want to menace either N Korea or China.

As to the SCS, it appears the United States will accept a strategic realignment in the Sea and of Asean countries. If that does not sit well with CCP then so be it because then the sides would have to duke it out.

US apparently will accept CCP dominance of the northern area of the SCS where Hainan Island is with the coastal area behind the island. The Vietnam and US can police the western SCS where CCP are in the Spratlys. The Phils and US can patrol the east SCS where CCP possesses Scarborough Shoal but is doing nothing with it. The southern SCS and the sprawling Spratly atoll of rocks is up for grabs depending on Indonesia and Malaysia which lean (strongly) toward aligning with the US, but where CCP have constructed seven artificial islands. Singapore, the US and India can police the Malacca Strait at the north end of which India has its newly constructed huge naval and air bases in the Andaman Islands.

Dunno what the Boyz in Beijing expect from their aggressions in the SCS but the longer and the more they continue to denounce the PCA in The Hague and the UNCLOS the tougher it's going to get for 'em. CCP have Cambodia and Laos in their corner while Thailand and Myanmar hang between the US, China and the divisions in Asean.

This is not a prediction but, rather, the way things have been going since CCP began making its SCS moves, precipitating strong resistance by Asean and provoking the active entry of US naval and air forces on two bases: one being its opposition to excessive territorial claims by CCP, and, secondly, to reinforce and reassure a continued freedom of navigation on and over the Sea.

CCP moves against Scarborough Shoal or declares an Air-Sea Defense Interception Zone and it all transforms severely, i.e., to win-lose for everyone involved.

[boomerangutang]

I believe strongly the continued deployment of weaponry in this region does not help it.

My son at 5 years old walked passed a UNICEF poster today and asked me why the boy look so sad...I had to explain in some war torn areas, the children have no shelter, no food and not much schools to go to. He looks confused as he has not seen that in Thailand and of course has never experience hunger.

As such for me personally as a parent, I don't believe any racking up of tension is good.

I don't agree with the deployment of the THAAD as it's driving a mad Rottweiler more crazy and prodding him with a stick. He is controlled with a choke chain now....but if he breaks free....I don't think people in Japan, South Korea or anywhere will sleep easy. I don't want one night of peace...I want the place to be devoid of conflict.

The mad nut could shoot in a direction not expected and hit any part of China and that would mean a huge casualty rate as the cities in China is so densely populated.

China has kept him relatively calm but all these missiles are bad news and looking at history ...any country that first uses that as a deterrent is also in a position to launch the first strike.

China rightly is condemning the move as no superpower would want missiles pointing in their range....and yes I am going to wait 10 seconds for the first Taiwan comment....

LC, you sound like a good dad. It's important that all boys and girls grow up able to give vent to compassionate feelings. That's basic to what's happening in the world today and on into the future. To the extent kids grow up inured/calloused to what others are feeling, is the extent bad things will ensue. Similarly, it's important for all kids to tune into nature. It's not enough to just have a pet cat or dog. People (and all species) need 'wild places' in the world where nature can do its natural thing, where every sort of flora and fauna can thrive, .....without people interference. Sorry if I sound like an old hippie, but I look around and I see people forcing their selfish plans upon and destroying nature. The Chinese method is: heck with wild places and large national parks, let's build cities everywhere we can. Billions of tons of concrete/rebar/asphalt devoted to people people people, from horizon to horizon. Similar is happening in the commandeered territories in the SCS. Where are Chinese leaders looking to take-over next? Pacific atolls? Aleutian chain? Antarctica? North polar regions? The moon? Wherever it is, you can be sure they will be covering it with concrete.

[Publicus]

It is a United States "core interest" in the words of CCP that CCP respect the UNCLOS in the South China Sea, that CCP stop in its determination to destroy the Convention and its rule of law, and that CCP cease campaigning to dismember Asean and to separate SE Asia from the United States and the West.

The greatest problem in respect of the South China Sea is CCP's number one rule for the Asean conferences and for the world in discussions of the SCS, which is not to talk about the South China Sea. Beijing's aggressions and bellicosity especially and in particular.

BEIJING, July 25, 2016 (Xinhua) -- Chinese President Xi Jinping ® meets with U.S. National Security Advisor Susan Rice at the Great Hall of the People in Beijing, capital of China, (Xinhua/Ding Lin)

BEIJING, July 25 (Xinhua) -- President Xi Jinping on Monday called on China and the United States to effectively manage their differences and respect each other's core interests.

Xi made the remarks when meeting with U.S. National Security Advisor Susan Rice at the Great Hall of the People in Beijing.

The goal of China's development is to benefit its 1.3 billion people, Xi said, reiterating that China had no intention of challenging the present international rules and order, and it will never seek hegemony.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-07/25/c_135539237.htm

Reading Xinhua could be a definite laugh riot if the issues were not serious ones starting with being a good neighbor. So now we read in Xinhua that CCP are attacking the new president of the Philippines, Rodrigo Duterte.....

New Philippine president still misinterprets South China Sea ruling

by Xinhua Writer Liu Chang

BEIJING, July 25 (Xinhua) -- In his first state of the nation address on Monday, newly-inaugurated Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte made a wrong political judgment over the South China Sea issue by eulogizing the recent illegal and invalid arbitral award against China.

In the address, Duterte hailed the recent South China Sea arbitral award given by the unlawfully established temporary tribunal "a key contribution" to peaceful resolution to maritime disputes between the Philippines and China.

If the Philippines truly wants peace, then, it should come back to the right track. That starts with recognizing the harms the arbitration has already inflicted on bilateral ties and regional tranquility.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-07/25/c_135539312.htm

There will continue to be a great disturbance to the CCP people's paradise unless or until the Dictators in Beijing enter the 21st century. They need first to quit on their delusion they will make the Central Kingdom great again. Second they need to accept that in the modern world societies and peoples succeed when they live and work by the rule of law.

*The photo is what's known in Washington DC as a 'grip and grin' moment.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Publicus

[LawrenceChee]

I believe strongly the continued deployment of weaponry in this region does not help it.

My son at 5 years old walked passed a UNICEF poster today and asked me why the boy look so sad...I had to explain in some war torn areas, the children have no shelter, no food and not much schools to go to. He looks confused as he has not seen that in Thailand and of course has never experience hunger.

As such for me personally as a parent, I don't believe any racking up of tension is good.

I don't agree with the deployment of the THAAD as it's driving a mad Rottweiler more crazy and prodding him with a stick. He is controlled with a choke chain now....but if he breaks free....I don't think people in Japan, South Korea or anywhere will sleep easy. I don't want one night of peace...I want the place to be devoid of conflict.

The mad nut could shoot in a direction not expected and hit any part of China and that would mean a huge casualty rate as the cities in China is so densely populated.

China has kept him relatively calm but all these missiles are bad news and looking at history ...any country that first uses that as a deterrent is also in a position to launch the first strike.

China rightly is condemning the move as no superpower would want missiles pointing in their range....and yes I am going to wait 10 seconds for the first Taiwan comment....

LC, you sound like a good dad. It's important that all boys and girls grow up able to give vent to compassionate feelings. That's basic to what's happening in the world today and on into the future. To the extent kids grow up inured/calloused to what others are feeling, is the extent bad things will ensue. Similarly, it's important for all kids to tune into nature. It's not enough to just have a pet cat or dog. People (and all species) need 'wild places' in the world where nature can do its natural thing, where every sort of flora and fauna can thrive, .....without people interference. Sorry if I sound like an old hippie, but I look around and I see people forcing their selfish plans upon and destroying nature. The Chinese method is: heck with wild places and large national parks, let's build cities everywhere we can. Billions of tons of concrete/rebar/asphalt devoted to people people people, from horizon to horizon. Similar is happening in the commandeered territories in the SCS. Where are Chinese leaders looking to take-over next? Pacific atolls? Aleutian chain? Antarctica? North polar regions? The moon? Wherever it is, you can be sure they will be covering it with concrete.

Boomer

Have you seen the links I sent you the last time....here's 2 more....China is not soul less as some would think...there are aplenty of us fighting to keep it green and make it a better more environmental place to live in. Many of these places have views and environments that will take your breath away and I recommend a nice cup of Puer or Oolong as you saver in the sights.

http://www.chinahighlights.com/travelguide/famous-mountains.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_protected_areas_of_China

Among all the smog out cities, there is a dedicated yes ( committee again :-) ) fighting to keep these places for our next generations of Chinese and half Chinese to enjoy.

This has moved up in rankings in importance of agenda items to be discussed and soon if implemented there will be one environmental committee member in each party organ and that person would drive the initiatives

Update - No plans for Aleutian , Pacific Atolls , Arctic yet...moon yes there are some ambitions there but I heard it will be called the cloud nine dash.... have a great work day !

Edited July 26, 2016 by LawrenceChee

[boomerangutang]

"Grip and Grin" ......sounds like China's policy for SCS.

Or Pee Wee Herman in the moments before he was busted in an X-rated movie house in Florida.

[Publicus]

CCP gained little or nothing by silencing Asean on the SCS issues by using Cambodia and Laos to sabotage the consensus statement drafted by Singapore, Philippines, Indonesia. Indonesia said today it would press on to get a statement that calls on CCP to cease and desist.

The CCP rule in discussions of the SCS is that no one is allowed to discuss the SCS.

So here somebody got in the face of the CCP Dictators in Beijing...

The United States, Japan and Australia have urged China not to construct military outposts and reclaim land in the disputed South China Sea, in a strong show of support for Southeast Asian nations that have territorial disputes with Beijing in the area

By VIJAY JOSHI Associated Press

A joint statement by the three allies, issued late Monday, ironically fills the vacuum created by Southeast Asia's main grouping, which during its meeting of foreign ministers on Sunday failed to take a stand against China because of disunity among themselves.

"The ministers [of US, Japan, Australia] expressed their serious concerns over maritime disputes in the South China Sea. The ministers voiced their strong opposition to any coercive unilateral actions that could alter the status quo and increase tensions," said the statement issued by Secretary of State John Kerry and foreign ministers Fumio Kishida and Julie Bishop.

In a clear broadside at China, the statement urged all parties to refrain from "unilateral actions that cause permanent physical change to the marine environment ... and from such actions as large-scale land reclamation, and the construction of outposts as well as the use of those outposts for military purposes."

http://www.tribtown.com/view/story/f06fa3468e5948b4af10883465172406/AS--South-China-Sea

Due to the lawless aggressions of the CCP, the PCA Tribunal ruling is but the beginning of the SCS disputes as Beijing continues to pursue its purpose to destroy the UNCLOS and Asean.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Publicus

[craigt3365]

And more independent news outlets are being closed. Sadly, the locals don't get the full, and truthful, story.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-36881353

News services run by some of China's biggest online portals, including Sina, Sohu, NetEase and iFeng, were shut for publishing independent reports instead of official statements, the media said.

Like Russia, little credibility in their news reports.

[boomerangutang]

Expect increased intensity from paid Chinese internet bloggers.

If, as reported by NPR, 1/100th of all Chinese are actively involved (many of them paid by the CP) in spreading lies about China, that's around 14 million ! same as the entire population of Bangkok. It gives new meaning to the word 'swarm.'

....and also continuing press releases from 'China News' outlets, blanketing newspapers around the world. Essentially all newspapers just copy and paste what gets sent to them, usually from syndicated outlets like AP or Reuters. On official sounding news source like "China News Agency" will likely get its articles copied and pasted into most newspapers. The Nation newspaper in Bkk plays along, even using Chinese names for specific places in the SCS which anyone (who knows the geography there) knows have commonly accepted names like Spratly Islands, Scarborough Shoal, and so on.

I wrote to Nation newspaper twice on that issue. They may be getting better (by not blindly posting everything the Chinese send them), but am not sure, because I don't scrutinize each days' newspapers.

[Publicus]

CP's only 'friends' in the entire region are Hun Sen in Cambodia who CCP have given $1 billion in 'soft loans' since 2012 to wreck Asean, and Laos, where CCP owns the little economy that there is. North Korea is blackmailing CCP into food, fuel and face loss while it menaces everyone to include the numbnuts in Beijing who cannot control Kim and his gang.

India has had it with Chinese claims of long standing that it owns the northern third of India which is what the brief CCP-initiated 1962 war was about, the one Indians mean when they still say "the war".

Earlier this month India sent a flotilla of its naval ships to joint exercises with the US and Japan in the waters south of Okinawa, after which the Indian Navy ships visited Japan, Russia, South Korea, Vietnam, Malaysia...not China.

India has adopted a harsher tone at Beijing over their rejection of The Hague's ruling.

India's Junior Foreign Minister VK Singh said: "India, as a state player to the UNCLOS, urges all parties to show utmost respect for the UNCLOS, which is the foundation of the international legal order of the seas and oceans.

On 18 July, a senior officer of the Indian Navy confirmed that India would be prepared to help other Asian countries fighting China for rights to the South China Sea. Three Indian Navy ships were in the South China Sea to take part in joint military exercises with the Royal Malaysian Navy.

Furthermore, military buildup along the Indo-Chinese border has indicated that both countries are preparing for the worst amid worsening relations.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/india-china-relations-harm-bilateral-ties-delhi-blasts-beijing-over-south-china-sea-1572563

Understanding China's sea fever

And then there's the behemoth that is the US Navy. Aware that it cannot hope to match the US ship for ship, Beijing has opted to emphasise anti-ship missiles and other area denial weapons systems to deter any possible aggression. None of this, however, means that China could possibly prevail against a US-backed coalition in the nightmare scenario of a naval blockade. (emphasis added)

What this adds up to is that China is increasingly isolated and cornered in the East Asia region, to the satisfaction of strategic planners from Washington to New Delhi.

http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/understanding-chinas-sea-fever-dawn-columnist

Much to our satisfaction as CCP atr the neighbors from hell who have been highly effective to isolate themselves. The longer and the more the CCP rejects and denounces the PCA and the UNCLOS the worse it gets for 'em. That's cause everyone knows CCP is determined to destroy the UNCLOS and Asean too while they're at it.

[tonbridgebrit]

China is the room-sized paper balloon tiger being held aloft by little flames below (its economic expansion fueled mostly by cheap plastic stuff and knockoffs of western products).

The flame which ignites the paper shell won't be the SCS imbroglio. It will be its imminent financial implosion.

Walmart is stacked with goods that are made in China, and this will continue.

Trump might change this by putting 30-40% tax on the Chinese goods, but he's not going to win the election. Hillary will, and Hillary will continue the China-policy of the last three presidents. That's Bill Clinton, George W. Bush and Obama. The last quarter-of-a-century. It's a policy of importing Chinese manufactured goods.

It does give me a grin on my face when those who support Hillary but hate China, they refuse to support Trump, bearing in mind that yes, Trump will destroy China's economy IF he gets elected. As long as Walmart imports a load of Chinese goods, China's economy is unlikely to be hit. The flood of Chinese tourists continuing in Thailand (and through-out the world) is proof of no collapse in the Chinese economy.

By the way, I have a whole load of Chinese goods in my home. My flat-screen tv, nearly all the electrical stuff I have, it's made in China. I don't reckon it's junk. How much "Chinese junk" have YOU got ????

[tonbridgebrit]

The islands/rocks/reefs have historically belonged who whoever had the power to occupy them at the time - France, Japan, China - The end result of that political football is China is in control of most of it (with a bit held by Taiwan, as pointed out above).

Everyone is looking at this geographically - and geographically they should in all decency be portioned out between the surrounding countries - except that those surrounding countries have historically done nothing like enough to claim them or occupy them. They lose.

I still say the Chinese claim to these islands is exactly equivalent to Britain's claim to the Falklands. There does come a point when history becomes fixed and China has been clever (and industrious) enough to engineer it here. Galling as it is, if you don't like China, the SCS is now theirs. That's history. Learn the lesson and defend your claim better in future. The US had now really better back off.

"I still say the Chinese claim to these islands is exactly equivalent to Britain's claim to the Falklands."

Well, what can I say ? I agree ? Who wants to take the Falklands away from Britain ?

"Galling as it is, if you don't like China, the SCS is now theirs."

Yeah, I think so. Washington can still threaten to stick 30-40% tax on the Chinese imports at Walmart, this will certainly scare Beijing, will certainly force Beijing to dismantle the Chinese dots. But it's not going to happen. Why on earth would Washington go and hurt it's own American consumers, because of some Chinese dots on a place that lots of people can't point to on a world map ???

"The US had now really better back off."

Well, Washington can still carry on it's macho display of military hard-ware in the South China Sea. It simply has to let the Philipinnes and China sort out what is an Asian problem. Basically, no missiles to be fired.

I do love the way how you've brought up the issue of the Falklands.

See, the Falklands highlights the hypocrisy of Washington. Actually, our residential Washington cheer-leader himself has said several times that Washington does not take sides on these disputes regarding territory. Oh, so Washington (through Obama and John Kerry) has never actually said that that the sea belongs to the Phils/Vietnam, it's never said that it does NOT belong to China.

If Washington did, yes, it would reveal it's hypocrisy in a blatant way.

Washington has to back Britain in the Falklands, because Britain backs Washington in a whole load of wars and disputes. Washington would look ridiculous IF it backed Britain in the Falklands, and took sides (in favour of Vietnam/Phils, AGAINST China) in the South China Sea.

Hence, Washington has to NOT TAKE SIDES in this SCS thing. A point that has been raised by our residential Washington cheerleader.

[LawrenceChee]

Kerry has mentioned in his latest statement the diplomacy and not racking up public tensions is the way forward and he will encourage the new President in Philippines to negotiate directly thru diplomacy channels and FM of Philippines has also alluded there will be more back channel negotiations instead of public face talks / media glare.

This has always been the way favoured by the Chinese and the Vietnamese FM has also made a side statement that they attach importance to bilateral negotiations with China on their differences.

When all of these media glare dies in 6 months ....trade talks and announcements made...the only question is why did the USA waste all its taxpayers money and did all the military exercises ?

On a sidenote, in 2015, 1.8 million Chinese visited USA and spent a staggering 21.1 billion dollars which meant the average tourist spent about $11,000.

Numbers projected to go up to 80 billion dollars in 5 years thanks to a relaxed visa ruling...you may hate their spitting, loud noises, and the occasional crap in the street but seems like Uncle Sam welcomes $$$ like everyone else...that amount is enough to give any hotelier / shopping mall REIT investor an immediate unicorn dream for tonight

[tonbridgebrit]

I don't see any "cheerleaders" for Washington. More like posters saying what China is doing is wrong. They are violating a treaty they signed and now ignoring a decision from a well respected international court. Plus, being a bully to their neighbors.

What the US has been doing is freedom of navigation exercises. Which China also does in US waters.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_navigation

The South China Sea is an incredibly important piece of water. Some $5 trillion worth of goods go through there, including more than half the world’s annual merchant fleet tonnage and a third of all maritime traffic worldwide.

The world is a global society. Disruptions to this would impact every developed nation. Congrats on the US for trying to keep these waters open and free of weapons. Weapons being put there by China, not the US.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/17/china-places-missiles-woody-south-china-sea-islands

Your displeasure with the US is clouding your ability to see this issue clearly.

P.S. This isn't about money from tourism.

Yes, the US ships are carrying out freedom of navigation exercises.

Now, if Washington's point is to make sure that the sea lanes are open, hey, I myself would like to thank Washington for this.

Now, those sea-lanes we're talking about. They are used for transporting Chinese goods to Europe. So, Washington wants to make sure that the route remains open ? Great. What else ? Ships carrying oil and other raw materials to Japan and South Korea use those lanes. Now, IF China blocks those ships, fine, I would have no problem with Washington using 2% of it's fire-power to destroy any Chinese ships/aircraft that are blocking THOSE ships.

But, let's get real. Is that Washington's only or main objective ? To make sure that ships carrying stuff to and from South Korea/Japan can continue ?

You say that this isn't about money from tourism ? Sir, most wars are fought for financial/economic gain. As in oil,gas,etc. Tourism generates a lot of revenue, and the ASEAN countries (not just Thailand, but the others as well) stand to rake in billions from Chinese tourists. They stand to lose billions from the existing flood of Chinese tourists. A few missiles fired at those Chinese dots in the sea, fired on behalf of Vietnam and the Phils, it won't do their tourism industry any good. That's why Vietnam and the Phils are not going to allow missiles being fired on their behalf.

If Washington wants to fire a few missiles, it cannot use Vietnam or the Phils as an excuse. Washington has to find some other reason. A reason that seems good enough to the American people. After all, Washington (supposedly) can only do stuff that is being allowed by the people of America. It is democratic.

And this is why China is being demonised. Washington has to convince the people of America that China is a threat and danger to world peace. And once Washington has convinced the people of America that China is a threat and danger to world peace, well, that's when Washington can fire a few missiles (or a lot of missiles) at them Chinese dots.

I really do hope that the people of America can see that the idea of "China is a threat and danger to world peace" is utter drivel and nonsense, it is a LIE.

[Publicus]

CCP campaigning to destroy the UNCLOS and Asean too is not acceptable to the world of nations so it is not going to be overlooked or forgotten in three years time or five years time.

CCP Dictators in Beijing have identified and have marked themselves as international outlaws. The Dictators have sough out support from governments in Africa and in the Pacific Islands so the CCP can bully and dominate its neighbors in Asean and throughout the region, from Japan and South Korea to Taiwan, Australia/NZ and on to India.

CCP aggressions and belligerence in the SCS have become a "game changer" to the world of nations now that CCP are attacking the PCA Tribunal in The Hague and are denouncing the UNCLOS.

Why the South China Sea Ruling Is a Game Changer

By clarifying the legal status of most of the South China Sea, the ruling goes a long way in shedding light as to which actions were lawful and unlawful.

The ruling forces the major protagonists to take sides—to either be on the side of international law or against it—and significantly narrows the room for maneuverability for both its supporters and its opponents

With these key judgments, a vast swath of the South China Sea is legally no longer disputed. The ruling has in fact reduced the disputed area from more than 80 percent of the South China Sea to less than 20 percent of it.

http://thediplomat.com/2016/07/why-the-south-china-sea-ruling-is-a-game-changer/

Most active in opposition to CCP lawlessness are Vietnam, the Philippines, Malaysia, Japan, the United States, Canada, Australia, India, major European states such as Germany France and Britain. Recently taking the lead in opposition to the CCP are the Asean states of Singapore and Indonesia.

Confidentially occurring backchannel and sheltered negotiations are not uniquely Chinese nor are they uniquely Asian. They happen all the time and they are done by everyone, as has been true for thousands of years. To say it is the preferred way of the Chinese and Asians is a culturally egocentric statement that is also nationalistic and nativist in its eccentric orientation. Backchannel negotiations are not unique to China nor did China invent them.

SecState Kerry is promoting negotiations between CCP and the Philippines to promote a period of talk and a relative calm as talk is better than escalating actions by CCP which have been -- and can only be -- provocative and self-defeating. CCP have lost a great deal of face so Beijing needs time to regroup. The Politburo's annual retreat each August in Beidaihe town at Bohai Bay 200 km east of Beijing will be the excellent opportunity to this time discuss the SCS in addition to domestic issues, such as the record number of labor strikes, arrests and mass unemployment currently occurring as the economy slides in to a black hole.

Nothing will come of negotiations with the Phils as the country's constitution is clear: the Phils EEZ is sovereign and not to be shared or co-developed with any other sovereign government -- and that means you Beijing. So the meaningless negotiations are a stall as everyone knows. For CCP it introduces a period of calm which Asean and the US welcome also. And for President Obama, it provides time until the next Potus has taken office with a new and fresh voter mandate that will enable her to deal with these issues in her own tuff way.

CCP designs to demolish the UNCLOS and Asean will continue to be stopped and no one is about to forget this malevolent campaign by the CCP Dictators in Beijing. The fundamental principle of life in China is to obey/disobey. Those who obey can do well -- those who disobey lose every time. It is unfortunate the Chinese think in this way because they have chosen to require Asean and the region to obey when all it can do is to disobey, to include the United States. All of which now places CCP in the ironic and cheerless position of swallowing its hubris by having to obey. It is still win-lose in China, as always.

Turns out the peaceful rising China is as much of a myth as the dragon figure itself has always been a myth.

[tonbridgebrit]

CCP campaigning to destroy the UNCLOS and Asean too is not acceptable to the world of nations so it is not going to be overlooked or forgotten in three years time or five years time.

Publicus, Publicus, you're still trying to create this false picture of China trying to destroy ASEAN ???

Okay, Thailand is in ASEAN, is Beijing trying to destroy Thailand ? Who in their right mind believes that ? Thailand is importing a mountain of Chinese goods, not as much as Walmart, but still, it's a reasonable amount. Most or nearly all the flat-screen televisions sold in Thailand are made in China, you agree ?? Is China deliberately selling cheap stuff to Thailand, to dominate and take-over Thailand ? Is Thailand trying to reduce the massive "invasion" being carried out by the Chinese tourists ? Is Beijing sending a vast army of tourists to Pattaya, because Beijing is hoping that Pattaya will collapse into the sea due to the sheer weight of the vast Chinese tourist army ??

Okay man, you can paint a false picture of Vietnam and the Phils, but you can't paint a false picture of Thailand. That's because we can all see Thailand with our own eyes.

Okay everybody, what's happening in Thailand is also happening in the other ASEAN countries.

And here's the point. Thailand's massive trade (imports and exports) with China, Thailand being flooded by the Chinese tourists, this has caused a number of silly people on ThaiVisa to make comments like "Oh, Thailand has become a Chinese colony, it's become a Chinese province, it's being taken over by China, might as well call Thailand a new name, Chailand". It's happening in the other ASEAN countries as well.

And that, that is Washington's problem with China. Washington feels that the ASEAN countries are becoming more and more "aligned" with China. That's why Washington is stepping in now, trying to talk up a confrontation with China, trying to make it look like that China is dangerous. Thailand and the rest of ASEAN does not need Washington as a police officer to arrest China. But that's what Washington is trying to do, acting like an international police-officer.

[LawrenceChee]

It will be very ironic that in the world of governance, people would believe there is a peaceful non conflict rising of a giant superpower. It shows again governance is not about unicorns and fairies and being practical. China is considered the least war prolific country compared to many of its more trigger happy G5 members...yes occasionally they say the wrong thing that gets everyone in a tiff....but they are also the slowest in any global conflict to say let's start bombing first to get the attention.

Everyone who reviewed how G5 / G20 nations do their negotiations and trade deals know it is always from a position of power and mostly smaller nations would feel aggrieved that they had no choice to but accept certain decisions. This is the reality of being small again.

Ask Greece / Italy / Bulgaria / Serbia why they are slowly pushing towards China instead or relying on their EU partners ? Perhaps Germany was considered too strong a bully and they don't relish another meeting with her again as they are reminded they are "naughty boys" and didn't spend within their means again.

Philippines as I mentioned in my earlier posts was a diplomacy error on the part of the Chinese to push them this hard, it's good however as within the committees it's clear what the boundaries on that and more back door channelling would have prevailed better than the media glare. They will recover from that mistake and hopefully be smarter in future negotiations.

The next flashpoint for China will not be the SCS...after a year the media glare dies down and if the Chinese makes the right move of allowing the fisherman in...I believe even the Filipinos would send the OFW to go there and dredge for the right wages...that was the most important point for the President first as he needs a positive people image of supporting the poor and not the elite and that was the basis of his recent voter victory.

The focus will move to India borders and Mekong damming...these are the next impending flashpoints and more dangerous than the SCS incident.

This is the ironic decision which boomer can research on ...in the search for clean hydro power to replace coal / air pollution ...it will impact all the ASEAN partners below the deltas which again show hard decisions are made every day to manage the balance...that's the hardest part and why governance is not for the weak hearted

Laos have taken the lead also in producing hydro power so that they can sell the excess to Thailand and Vietnam but wont be a popular decision as well as that will impact the deltas too.

The collaboration of ASEAN with China on trade will always be there irregardless of the politic climate. The region is big enough for deals to be made in every country, rotating among countries favourable / unfavourable.

Chinese spent USD$229 billion dollars in 2015 for their tourist brigade....be a dumb country to say no to that especially if your numbers are dwindling and they are not spending as much as they use to ....

Check out 7-11 for the latest Chinese pollster feel....Unionpay and Alipay signs appearing everywhere in every retail space....wonder why paypal never got the markets....perhaps because the east is spending more than the west ...

Some would say China was never innovative but I will be happy if your Line function can pay rent, housing bills, gas, electricity, pay your pals for dinner, transfer money etc all within the messaging app instead of just sending stickers. WeChat can do that..hopefully soon they will offer as a similar service in Thailand and ASEAN. It will mean lesser trips to pay bills for airline tickets / bills etc.

Edited July 28, 2016 by LawrenceChee

[LawrenceChee]

http://www.investlaos.gov.la/index.php/resources/statistics

Have a look in this between 1986 - 2014 and see the dominant players in FDI. Laos is considered the poorest country in ASEAN. Where is the USA in its Asia pivotal shift ? Where's the practical help

This is why the governments in ASEAN know...the uncle with money is China / Thailand and the flashy uncle who is all fun and gimmicks is USA. This is not meant as an insult in any way...it's the practicality of governance. Both uncles are needed but only one is paying the bills...

And while some would argue that China is buying into Laos / Cambodia...the reality for Laos government is

415 millions in loans to World Bank

1.94 billion to ADB in loans

So which route will you go,,,push for FDI and get the benefits for your people directly or continue to borrow and depend on the goodwill of others ? When you grapple with those realities and make those decisions. it's easy to see why governance is so hard for some ASEAN countries that are poorer Philippines included.

Edited July 28, 2016 by LawrenceChee

[boomerangutang]

China is the room-sized paper balloon tiger being held aloft by little flames below (its economic expansion fueled mostly by cheap plastic stuff and knockoffs of western products).

The flame which ignites the paper shell won't be the SCS imbroglio. It will be its imminent financial implosion.

Walmart is stacked with goods that are made in China, and this will continue.

By the way, I have a whole load of Chinese goods in my home. My flat-screen tv, nearly all the electrical stuff I have, it's made in China. I don't reckon it's junk. How much "Chinese junk" have YOU got ????

I also have Chinese plastic stuff in my house; dust bin, laundry basket, fan, garbage pail, buckets, etc ad nauseum. I admit, cheap Chinese plastic stuff enables regular folks in importer countries to keep their cost-of-living down. There are several side issues also: By having China manufacture so many tons of plastic stuff, most of the pollution for manufacturing is outside of importing countries, though some pollution travels eastward to Japan and west coast US. Also millions of tons of discarded plastic winds up as 2 meter thick goop in the Pacific Trash Vortex. I'd rather see much of that plastic stuff instead made of old fashioned basketry, but that's considered archaic nowadays.

On a sidenote, in 2015, 1.8 million Chinese visited USA and spent a staggering 21.1 billion dollars which meant the average tourist spent about $11,000.

A lot of those Chinese visitors are probably scoping out places to run to, when the Chinese economy implodes.

[craigt3365]

I really do hope that the people of America can see that the idea of "China is a threat and danger to world peace" is utter drivel and nonsense, it is a LIE.

Where is it being said they are a threat to world peace? They are just a bully being put into place. What they are doing is not in the interest of surrounding countries that have claims to these resources. Sadly, they are too small to stand up to China.

Look what they've done to Tibet. Disgusting.

P.S. on my recent trip to Central Asia, there seems to be a backlash against the Chinese going on. Lots of goods going into those countries, but mainly empty trucks on the way back. They feel they are being taken advantage of. Especially with regards to environmental damage.

[Publicus]

CCP campaigning to destroy the UNCLOS and Asean too is not acceptable to the world of nations so it is not going to be overlooked or forgotten in three years time or five years time.

Publicus, Publicus, you're still trying to create this false picture of China trying to destroy ASEAN ???

Okay, Thailand is in ASEAN, is Beijing trying to destroy Thailand ? Who in their right mind believes that ? Thailand is importing a mountain of Chinese goods, not as much as Walmart, but still, it's a reasonable amount. Most or nearly all the flat-screen televisions sold in Thailand are made in China, you agree ?? Is China deliberately selling cheap stuff to Thailand, to dominate and take-over Thailand ? Is Thailand trying to reduce the massive "invasion" being carried out by the Chinese tourists ? Is Beijing sending a vast army of tourists to Pattaya, because Beijing is hoping that Pattaya will collapse into the sea due to the sheer weight of the vast Chinese tourist army ??

Okay man, you can paint a false picture of Vietnam and the Phils, but you can't paint a false picture of Thailand. That's because we can all see Thailand with our own eyes.

Okay everybody, what's happening in Thailand is also happening in the other ASEAN countries.

And here's the point. Thailand's massive trade (imports and exports) with China, Thailand being flooded by the Chinese tourists, this has caused a number of silly people on ThaiVisa to make comments like "Oh, Thailand has become a Chinese colony, it's become a Chinese province, it's being taken over by China, might as well call Thailand a new name, Chailand". It's happening in the other ASEAN countries as well.

And that, that is Washington's problem with China. Washington feels that the ASEAN countries are becoming more and more "aligned" with China. That's why Washington is stepping in now, trying to talk up a confrontation with China, trying to make it look like that China is dangerous. Thailand and the rest of ASEAN does not need Washington as a police officer to arrest China. But that's what Washington is trying to do, acting like an international police-officer.

Golly gee, anyone who can't read the eye-brain chart below must have CCP myopia.

The following is from the address of Gen. Prayuth as the keynote speaker in June at the Shangra-La Dialogue in Singapore sponsored biannually by the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London for the defense ministers of East Asian nations...

All parties must consider the importance of maintaining peace and stability in the East China Sea and South China Sea, the stability of airspace, shipping and supporting the resolution of regional maritime-territory issues peacefully on the basis of international law and maritime law.

Thailand believes that complying with every article of the Declaration of Conduct of Parties in the South China Sea (DOC) fully and effectively will create an environment that is able to facilitate negotiations to directly resolve related international issues and expedite the completion of DOC.

Thailand proposes that countries in the region, both those laying and not laying a claim to maritime territory, carry out constructive activities together for their own mutual benefit, focusing on tangible results on the basis of international law.

https://www.iiss.org/en/events/shangri%20la%20dialogue/archive/shangri-la-dialogue-2016-4a4b/opening-remarks-and-keynote-address-3da0/keynote-address-2a50

More specifically stated, Thailand does not side with CCP and Beijing in the SCS disputes.

Thailand makes clear it supports international law. CCP has more than made clear it does not support international law in the SCS disputes.

Thailand has always supported the Code of Conduct initiated by Asean and signed by Asean-CCP in 2002 but demolished by CCP in Cambodia in 2012. Thailand supports the intended CoC successor, the Declaration of the Conduct of the Parties in the South China Sea also prevented by CCP in Phenom Penh in 2012.

Only now after the PCA Tribunal ruling is CCP making noises about the CoC being negotiable, maybe, if, but.

The only people who own Thailand are the Thais.

China is losing out now to new low wage and low capital countries such as Myanmar, Philippines, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Tanzania, Uganda, Kenya, Peru, Nicaragua, Mexico and the like. Because no single country can replace China as the former world's factory floor, there are a number of countries already picking up where China left off once CCP began to self-destruct due to environmental destruction, economics based on state moribund corporations, and a financial system constructed on quicksand.

[Publicus]

http://www.investlaos.gov.la/index.php/resources/statistics

Have a look in this between 1986 - 2014 and see the dominant players in FDI. Laos is considered the poorest country in ASEAN. Where is the USA in its Asia pivotal shift ? Where's the practical help

This is why the governments in ASEAN know...the uncle with money is China / Thailand and the flashy uncle who is all fun and gimmicks is USA. This is not meant as an insult in any way...it's the practicality of governance. Both uncles are needed but only one is paying the bills...

And while some would argue that China is buying into Laos / Cambodia...the reality for Laos government is

415 millions in loans to World Bank

1.94 billion to ADB in loans

So which route will you go,,,push for FDI and get the benefits for your people directly or continue to borrow and depend on the goodwill of others ? When you grapple with those realities and make those decisions. it's easy to see why governance is so hard for some ASEAN countries that are poorer Philippines included.

Laos is not a claimant in the SCS disputes. Laos does however support CCP in the absolute, i.e., in complete opposition to the UNCLOS and in the destruction of Asean as a whole. CCP wants to deal only with ten small fish instead of one larger fish.

A country report on some economics and finances in Laos belongs at an appropriate thread. If one is illiterate in the topic one should find a topic he can discuss with relevance and in material ways.

Just a reminder again of this particular thread topic:

Beijing refuses to accept Hague ruling over South China Sea territorial claims

[Publicus]

It will be very ironic that in the world of governance, people would believe there is a peaceful non conflict rising of a giant superpower. It shows again governance is not about unicorns and fairies and being practical. China is considered the least war prolific country compared to many of its more trigger happy G5 members...yes occasionally they say the wrong thing that gets everyone in a tiff....but they are also the slowest in any global conflict to say let's start bombing first to get the attention.

Everyone who reviewed how G5 / G20 nations do their negotiations and trade deals know it is always from a position of power and mostly smaller nations would feel aggrieved that they had no choice to but accept certain decisions. This is the reality of being small again.

Ask Greece / Italy / Bulgaria / Serbia why they are slowly pushing towards China instead or relying on their EU partners ? Perhaps Germany was considered too strong a bully and they don't relish another meeting with her again as they are reminded they are "naughty boys" and didn't spend within their means again.

Philippines as I mentioned in my earlier posts was a diplomacy error on the part of the Chinese to push them this hard, it's good however as within the committees it's clear what the boundaries on that and more back door channelling would have prevailed better than the media glare. They will recover from that mistake and hopefully be smarter in future negotiations.

The next flashpoint for China will not be the SCS...after a year the media glare dies down and if the Chinese makes the right move of allowing the fisherman in...I believe even the Filipinos would send the OFW to go there and dredge for the right wages...that was the most important point for the President first as he needs a positive people image of supporting the poor and not the elite and that was the basis of his recent voter victory.

The focus will move to India borders and Mekong damming...these are the next impending flashpoints and more dangerous than the SCS incident.

This is the ironic decision which boomer can research on ...in the search for clean hydro power to replace coal / air pollution ...it will impact all the ASEAN partners below the deltas which again show hard decisions are made every day to manage the balance...that's the hardest part and why governance is not for the weak hearted

Laos have taken the lead also in producing hydro power so that they can sell the excess to Thailand and Vietnam but wont be a popular decision as well as that will impact the deltas too.

The collaboration of ASEAN with China on trade will always be there irregardless of the politic climate. The region is big enough for deals to be made in every country, rotating among countries favourable / unfavourable.

Chinese spent USD$229 billion dollars in 2015 for their tourist brigade....be a dumb country to say no to that especially if your numbers are dwindling and they are not spending as much as they use to ....

Check out 7-11 for the latest Chinese pollster feel....Unionpay and Alipay signs appearing everywhere in every retail space....wonder why paypal never got the markets....perhaps because the east is spending more than the west ...

Some would say China was never innovative but I will be happy if your Line function can pay rent, housing bills, gas, electricity, pay your pals for dinner, transfer money etc all within the messaging app instead of just sending stickers. WeChat can do that..hopefully soon they will offer as a similar service in Thailand and ASEAN. It will mean lesser trips to pay bills for airline tickets / bills etc.

It will be very ironic that in the world of governance, people would believe there is a peaceful non conflict rising of a giant superpower. It shows again governance is not about unicorns and fairies and being practical.

CCP began saying as of 30 years ago (if not more) that it is a peaceful rising power. This is false. Neither is CCP China a superpower, nor is it a power except against the little fish of Asean states individually and to African and other third world dictators such as Mugabe. CCP's economic system is failing and its military capabilities are thin and superficial. The Party's soft power culture is barren and desolate; its society is indoctrinated and its personality as a nation is manufactured.

So when someone in a dictatorship predicated in its historical elites of autocracy and oligarchy speaks of governance he needs to acknowledge that is his experience. It also means he cannot recognise experience in government of others who have experience working in Washington, in political campaigns, in elections in the USA at all levels, i.e., local, state, federal, and in a wide variety of roles from volunteer to campaign strategist and manager to a high ranking respected professional staff employee in a democratically elected national legislature. Ignorance is however bliss in the petrified forest of the single party state that is completely and entirely owned and operated by the CCP.

within the committees it's clear

The committees of the CCP are formed and organised by the CCP. The committees are comprised of CCP millionaires and other millionaires who owe their fortunes to the Party; of CCP loyal Princelings of the Party, i.e., those whose parents gained wealth by their Party membership and positions in the Party and in the Party's government; of the Party rank and file loyalists in the Party's wholly owned governments at the local and county level respectively, and at the provincial level. Ordinary citizens need not apply and dogs are not allowed inside either.

Everything else in the post is blather and prattle, i.e., off topic ramblings, meanderings, traipsing. Anyone not competent in the thread topic and who drivels on in his own world of CCP committees needs to create a new thread under General Topics or find a thread on the topic of governance -- comparative governance would be good, as in a 21st century new kind of a fascist dictatorship versus a representative democracy and its civil society.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Publicus

[LawrenceChee]

The level of complexity in a communist party and its committee is not as easily described as above ; the interlinks between committees and the standing ability to make cohesive balanced decisions makes this harder as there are various levels of overriding powers held within the individual party secretaries.

Hence the commentary above does show there is a general lack of understanding and when one insist that their governance methods are perhaps the only way and the others are not as effective, this shows a general lack of conviction in reviewing the options available globally to people and also what impacts the people culturally, socially and from a political point.

I have made many points in the past that most Chinese population are in state of total disconnect with politics because they are really not interested in it unless it impacts them directly , then the conversations and discussion will start.

When one understand the complexity of the committee mix and the decision making process, some may understand better why Beijing is going against the face of things and refusing to accept this and plowing on.

The next few months will be interesting to say the least.

[LawrenceChee]

It will be very ironic that in the world of governance, people would believe there is a peaceful non conflict rising of a giant superpower. It shows again governance is not about unicorns and fairies and being practical. China is considered the least war prolific country compared to many of its more trigger happy G5 members...yes occasionally they say the wrong thing that gets everyone in a tiff....but they are also the slowest in any global conflict to say let's start bombing first to get the attention.

Everyone who reviewed how G5 / G20 nations do their negotiations and trade deals know it is always from a position of power and mostly smaller nations would feel aggrieved that they had no choice to but accept certain decisions. This is the reality of being small again.

Ask Greece / Italy / Bulgaria / Serbia why they are slowly pushing towards China instead or relying on their EU partners ? Perhaps Germany was considered too strong a bully and they don't relish another meeting with her again as they are reminded they are "naughty boys" and didn't spend within their means again.

Philippines as I mentioned in my earlier posts was a diplomacy error on the part of the Chinese to push them this hard, it's good however as within the committees it's clear what the boundaries on that and more back door channelling would have prevailed better than the media glare. They will recover from that mistake and hopefully be smarter in future negotiations.

The next flashpoint for China will not be the SCS...after a year the media glare dies down and if the Chinese makes the right move of allowing the fisherman in...I believe even the Filipinos would send the OFW to go there and dredge for the right wages...that was the most important point for the President first as he needs a positive people image of supporting the poor and not the elite and that was the basis of his recent voter victory.

The focus will move to India borders and Mekong damming...these are the next impending flashpoints and more dangerous than the SCS incident.

This is the ironic decision which boomer can research on ...in the search for clean hydro power to replace coal / air pollution ...it will impact all the ASEAN partners below the deltas which again show hard decisions are made every day to manage the balance...that's the hardest part and why governance is not for the weak hearted

Laos have taken the lead also in producing hydro power so that they can sell the excess to Thailand and Vietnam but wont be a popular decision as well as that will impact the deltas too.

The collaboration of ASEAN with China on trade will always be there irregardless of the politic climate. The region is big enough for deals to be made in every country, rotating among countries favourable / unfavourable.

Chinese spent USD$229 billion dollars in 2015 for their tourist brigade....be a dumb country to say no to that especially if your numbers are dwindling and they are not spending as much as they use to ....

Check out 7-11 for the latest Chinese pollster feel....Unionpay and Alipay signs appearing everywhere in every retail space....wonder why paypal never got the markets....perhaps because the east is spending more than the west ...

Some would say China was never innovative but I will be happy if your Line function can pay rent, housing bills, gas, electricity, pay your pals for dinner, transfer money etc all within the messaging app instead of just sending stickers. WeChat can do that..hopefully soon they will offer as a similar service in Thailand and ASEAN. It will mean lesser trips to pay bills for airline tickets / bills etc.

It will be very ironic that in the world of governance, people would believe there is a peaceful non conflict rising of a giant superpower. It shows again governance is not about unicorns and fairies and being practical.

CCP began saying as of 30 years ago (if not more) that it is a peaceful rising power. This is false. Neither is CCP China a superpower, nor is it a power except against the little fish of Asean states individually and to African and other third world dictators such as Mugabe. CCP's economic system is failing and its military capabilities are thin and superficial. The Party's soft power culture is barren and desolate; its society is indoctrinated and its personality as a nation is manufactured.

So when someone in a dictatorship predicated in its historical elites of autocracy and oligarchy speaks of governance he needs to acknowledge that is his experience. It also means he cannot recognise experience in government of others who have experience working in Washington, in political campaigns, in elections in the USA at all levels, i.e., local, state, federal, and in a wide variety of roles from volunteer to campaign strategist and manager to a high ranking respected professional staff employee in a democratically elected national legislature. Ignorance is however bliss in the petrified forest of the single party state that is completely and entirely owned and operated by the CCP.

within the committees it's clear

The committees of the CCP are formed and organised by the CCP. The committees are comprised of CCP millionaires and other millionaires who owe their fortunes to the Party; of CCP loyal Princelings of the Party, i.e., those whose parents gained wealth by their Party membership and positions in the Party and in the Party's government; of the Party rank and file loyalists in the Party's wholly owned governments at the local and county level respectively, and at the provincial level. Ordinary citizens need not apply and dogs are not allowed inside either.

Everything else in the post is blather and prattle, i.e., off topic ramblings, meanderings, traipsing. Anyone not competent in the thread topic and who drivels on in his own world of CCP committees needs to create a new thread under General Topics or find a thread on the topic of governance -- comparative governance would be good, as in a 21st century new kind of a fascist dictatorship versus a representative democracy and its civil society.

I can only chuckle on this as it shows there are people out there who believe in unicorns and fairies much when Bushes offer to liberate the Kuwaits from the tyranny of Saddamn etc..

I guess the white house spin doctors are not the only ones that can spun out fairy tales and suprirrisng enough for all the experience mentioned in the inner politics of Washington...that they do not get the truth most of it is spin...

politics is a heartbreaker...welcome to the practical reality of the world. Care Bears powers ......rainbows and splashes :-)

[Publicus]

It will be very ironic that in the world of governance, people would believe there is a peaceful non conflict rising of a giant superpower. It shows again governance is not about unicorns and fairies and being practical. China is considered the least war prolific country compared to many of its more trigger happy G5 members...yes occasionally they say the wrong thing that gets everyone in a tiff....but they are also the slowest in any global conflict to say let's start bombing first to get the attention.

Everyone who reviewed how G5 / G20 nations do their negotiations and trade deals know it is always from a position of power and mostly smaller nations would feel aggrieved that they had no choice to but accept certain decisions. This is the reality of being small again.

Ask Greece / Italy / Bulgaria / Serbia why they are slowly pushing towards China instead or relying on their EU partners ? Perhaps Germany was considered too strong a bully and they don't relish another meeting with her again as they are reminded they are "naughty boys" and didn't spend within their means again.

Philippines as I mentioned in my earlier posts was a diplomacy error on the part of the Chinese to push them this hard, it's good however as within the committees it's clear what the boundaries on that and more back door channelling would have prevailed better than the media glare. They will recover from that mistake and hopefully be smarter in future negotiations.

The next flashpoint for China will not be the SCS...after a year the media glare dies down and if the Chinese makes the right move of allowing the fisherman in...I believe even the Filipinos would send the OFW to go there and dredge for the right wages...that was the most important point for the President first as he needs a positive people image of supporting the poor and not the elite and that was the basis of his recent voter victory.

The focus will move to India borders and Mekong damming...these are the next impending flashpoints and more dangerous than the SCS incident.

This is the ironic decision which boomer can research on ...in the search for clean hydro power to replace coal / air pollution ...it will impact all the ASEAN partners below the deltas which again show hard decisions are made every day to manage the balance...that's the hardest part and why governance is not for the weak hearted

Laos have taken the lead also in producing hydro power so that they can sell the excess to Thailand and Vietnam but wont be a popular decision as well as that will impact the deltas too.

The collaboration of ASEAN with China on trade will always be there irregardless of the politic climate. The region is big enough for deals to be made in every country, rotating among countries favourable / unfavourable.

Chinese spent USD$229 billion dollars in 2015 for their tourist brigade....be a dumb country to say no to that especially if your numbers are dwindling and they are not spending as much as they use to ....

Check out 7-11 for the latest Chinese pollster feel....Unionpay and Alipay signs appearing everywhere in every retail space....wonder why paypal never got the markets....perhaps because the east is spending more than the west ...

Some would say China was never innovative but I will be happy if your Line function can pay rent, housing bills, gas, electricity, pay your pals for dinner, transfer money etc all within the messaging app instead of just sending stickers. WeChat can do that..hopefully soon they will offer as a similar service in Thailand and ASEAN. It will mean lesser trips to pay bills for airline tickets / bills etc.

It will be very ironic that in the world of governance, people would believe there is a peaceful non conflict rising of a giant superpower. It shows again governance is not about unicorns and fairies and being practical.

CCP began saying as of 30 years ago (if not more) that it is a peaceful rising power. This is false. Neither is CCP China a superpower, nor is it a power except against the little fish of Asean states individually and to African and other third world dictators such as Mugabe. CCP's economic system is failing and its military capabilities are thin and superficial. The Party's soft power culture is barren and desolate; its society is indoctrinated and its personality as a nation is manufactured.

So when someone in a dictatorship predicated in its historical elites of autocracy and oligarchy speaks of governance he needs to acknowledge that is his experience. It also means he cannot recognise experience in government of others who have experience working in Washington, in political campaigns, in elections in the USA at all levels, i.e., local, state, federal, and in a wide variety of roles from volunteer to campaign strategist and manager to a high ranking respected professional staff employee in a democratically elected national legislature. Ignorance is however bliss in the petrified forest of the single party state that is completely and entirely owned and operated by the CCP.

within the committees it's clear

The committees of the CCP are formed and organised by the CCP. The committees are comprised of CCP millionaires and other millionaires who owe their fortunes to the Party; of CCP loyal Princelings of the Party, i.e., those whose parents gained wealth by their Party membership and positions in the Party and in the Party's government; of the Party rank and file loyalists in the Party's wholly owned governments at the local and county level respectively, and at the provincial level. Ordinary citizens need not apply and dogs are not allowed inside either.

Everything else in the post is blather and prattle, i.e., off topic ramblings, meanderings, traipsing. Anyone not competent in the thread topic and who drivels on in his own world of CCP committees needs to create a new thread under General Topics or find a thread on the topic of governance -- comparative governance would be good, as in a 21st century new kind of a fascist dictatorship versus a representative democracy and its civil society.

I can only chuckle on this as it shows there are people out there who believe in unicorns and fairies much when Bushes offer to liberate the Kuwaits from the tyranny of Saddamn etc..

I guess the white house spin doctors are not the only ones that can spun out fairy tales and suprirrisng enough for all the experience mentioned in the inner politics of Washington...that they do not get the truth most of it is spin...

politics is a heartbreaker...welcome to the practical reality of the world. Care Bears powers ......rainbows and splashes :-)

This is the classic Chinese attitude toward those who challenge or reject the Central Kingdom mentality.

The world saw the attitude at its ultimate in the CCP reaction in 2010 to the Nobel Peace Committee making its award to Dr. Liu Jiaobo who is imprisoned eleven years for openly advocating democracy in China in an evolutionary and peaceful way that is carefully planned and developed.

Dr. Liu's crime as the first Chinese to be awarded a Nobel was subversion against the state, i.e., the Chinese Communist Party that fully owns and operates the state and the government of its private and exclusive People's Republic.

CCP called the Nobel Peace Award Committee "a bunch of little clowns" who are engaged in a "political farce." This is the CCP mentality of disrespect, its attitude of contempt and dismissal. Asean member states known this well from history, and the rest of the world has learned it since.

CCP are in for a hard and well earned lesson in the 21st century world. The lessons have only just begun in the SCS matter, to include the East China Sea.