The Quest to Understand the Biology of Weight Loss

[dontoearth]

Drs. Liebel and Rosenbaum examine the Set Point problem of weight loss.

...."our studies indicate clearly with regard to body weight the body has a mind of its own."

This short HBO documentary deals with the problem of weight loss and the problem of maintaining weight loss by showing some incredible 'almost mind-blowing' research. If you believe weight loss is as simple as calories in and calories out you are simply wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2i_cmltmQ6A

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[ClutchClark]

Highly informative.

Thanks

[robblok]

While a lot of this is true there is also research that shows the body setpoint can change (especially with exercise), dont forget these guys are preaching for their own research funds.

Other point is there are ways to trick leptin during a diet.. im not surprised they don't mention it because otherwise their method if they develop it would be less profitable.

You can get your leptin levels up by carb cycling. There is already a lot of research out there about this. Cycling calories and carbs helps to fool the body.

I am always really skeptical of researchers preaching doom and gloom our body did not change much over the last 100 years.. but we got lots fatter (evolution works slower). So it really is the food intake and people should make sure they don't get obese to start with.

I too lost over 20% of my body-weight and I kept it off (and yes its hard if you want to remain super lean). My hunger is always higher as that of someone who was never overweight.. but with some tricks like carb / caloric cycling you can make things better.

[ClutchClark]

I agree with Robblock about exercise changing that set point.

[JHolmesJr]

After many years of personal research, using my body as a lab I have figured out the key to weight loss and maintaining a normal weight range.

Just cut out ALL sugar from your diet…natural or refined….it is the most addictive substance ever….more than nicotine and heroin.

Of course, sugar isn't just sweet stuff…it is also the mainstay of many starchy foods like rice and potatoes.

Dump sugar, wheat…..be sensible about sugar-heavy fruits, dairy and saturated fats….eat clean, lean meats like poultry and fish untreated with growth hormones and antibiotics…. and consume lots of fresh vegetables and your weight will be fine.

PS. Following the above, I have never had to exercise in my life….I shag a lot and that gives me just the workout I need.

[manarak]

After many years of personal research, using my body as a lab I have figured out the key to weight loss and maintaining a normal weight range.

Just cut out ALL sugar from your diet…natural or refined….it is the most addictive substance ever….more than nicotine and heroin.

Of course, sugar isn't just sweet stuff…it is also the mainstay of many starchy foods like rice and potatoes.

Dump sugar, wheat…..be sensible about sugar-heavy fruits, dairy and saturated fats….eat clean, lean meats like poultry and fish untreated with growth hormones and antibiotics…. and consume lots of fresh vegetables and your weight will be fine.

PS. Following the above, I have never had to exercise in my life….I shag a lot and that gives me just the workout I need.

trouble is, when doing that it takes nearly all pleasure out of eating.

sugar is bad. fat is bad. salt is bad. alcohol is bad. geee.... one soylent green please!

[impulse]

In 20 years, some whistleblower at an additives company is going to reveal that they've been adding something to our food to make us crave more of it.

And they've known all along that the only purpose of that additive is to make us crave more of what they're selling- and they've been squelching the research that proves they've been making $$ billions (trillions?) at the expense of the health of billions of consumers the world over.

It may be as simple as the added sugar, but I'm more inclined to bet there's some chemical added in minute amounts that multiplies the addictive properties of sugar.

But then, I am a wingnut conspiracy fan- especially when that kind of money is involved. Worked for decades for Big Tobacco...

[ClutchClark]

After many years of personal research, using my body as a lab I have figured out the key to weight loss and maintaining a normal weight range.

Just cut out ALL sugar from your dietnatural or refined.it is the most addictive substance ever.more than nicotine and heroin.

Of course, sugar isn't just sweet stuffit is also the mainstay of many starchy foods like rice and potatoes.

Dump sugar, wheat..be sensible about sugar-heavy fruits, dairy and saturated fats.eat clean, lean meats like poultry and fish untreated with growth hormones and antibiotics. and consume lots of fresh vegetables and your weight will be fine.

PS. Following the above, I have never had to exercise in my life.I shag a lot and that gives me just the workout I need.

trouble is, when doing that it takes nearly all pleasure out of eating.

sugar is bad. fat is bad. salt is bad. alcohol is bad. geee.... one soylent green please!

Sadly, the amount of stored toxins in the human body is alarmingly high.

For example, we are now filled with so many preservatives from the food we eat that our bodies are not decomposing in the grave.

Its actually OK to eat some fats. Yogurt is healthy for you.

[JHolmesJr]

After many years of personal research, using my body as a lab I have figured out the key to weight loss and maintaining a normal weight range.

Just cut out ALL sugar from your diet…natural or refined….it is the most addictive substance ever….more than nicotine and heroin.

Of course, sugar isn't just sweet stuff…it is also the mainstay of many starchy foods like rice and potatoes.

Dump sugar, wheat…..be sensible about sugar-heavy fruits, dairy and saturated fats….eat clean, lean meats like poultry and fish untreated with growth hormones and antibiotics…. and consume lots of fresh vegetables and your weight will be fine.

PS. Following the above, I have never had to exercise in my life….I shag a lot and that gives me just the workout I need.

trouble is, when doing that it takes nearly all pleasure out of eating.

sugar is bad. fat is bad. salt is bad. alcohol is bad. geee.... one soylent green please!

Not really….fat is fine in moderation (not frying stuff in butter all the time)….salt is fine too…..alcohol….well, I avoid alcohol with sugars and grains…..like beer….

Just needs a will of steel to avoid desserts, cookies, ice creams…it is deadly addictive….it is in nearly every packaged snack in some form…especially cereals.

A nice thai stirfry like prawns with broccoli is a wonderful meal….you can eat as much as you like…..its the rice you add to it that makes it fattening.

[JHolmesJr]

Yogurt is healthy for you.

Yes…but not the one in supermarkets….the flavoured ones…those are stunningly high in refined sugar….I eat a lot of sour yoghurt….no problems there.

[Jingthing]

An informative article about the obesity epidemic in the USA, with on topic discussion of the SET POINT issue.

Quote

 

“In 2013, obesity finally got diagnosed as a disease, rather than a life choice,” Rich says. “And the reason why they changed the diagnosis as a disease is because there’s so many biological factors that lead to it.”

In obese patients with a Body Mass Index (BMI) of 30-35, Rich explains, the body is geared to conserve energy, so it sees that new weight as the normal weight and wants to retain it. The key, according to Rich, is catching the problem early, before a person’s body decides a high BMI is the status quo.

 

 

 

http://qz.com/752184/how-obesity-became-the-new-face-of-disability-in-america/

[ClutchClark]

Well all I know is the obese folks buying coffee drinks that look more like ice cream sundaes every morning at Starbucks are making lifestyle choices. 

 

[ClutchClark]

On July 29, 2016 at 5:10 PM, JHolmesJr said:

Yes…but not the one in supermarkets….the flavoured ones…those are stunningly high in refined sugar….I eat a lot of sour yoghurt….no problems there.

 

Well I agree that some yogurt is healthier than other yogurt but even sugary yogurt is a healthier food than many options. 

 

To be fair, my message was about some fats being healthy for you--and I stand by that. 

 

Moderation & Exercise.

 

This original article and the Study are interesting but the sample size is very small.

 

To be honest, I think we will find that bacteria are a big part of why some people get obese. 

[ClutchClark]

On July 29, 2016 at 5:08 PM, JHolmesJr said:

Not really….fat is fine in moderation (not frying stuff in butter all the time)….salt is fine too…..alcohol….well, I avoid alcohol with sugars and grains…..like beer….

Just needs a will of steel to avoid desserts, cookies, ice creams…it is deadly addictive….it is in nearly every packaged snack in some form…especially cereals.

A nice thai stirfry like prawns with broccoli is a wonderful meal….you can eat as much as you like…..its the rice you add to it that makes it fattening.

 

Well here...you summed up my own opinions well.

[1FinickyOne]

On July 29, 2559 BE at 5:06 PM, impulse said:

In 20 years, some whistleblower at an additives company is going to reveal that they've been adding something to our food to make us crave more of it.

And they've known all along that the only purpose of that additive is to make us crave more of what they're selling- and they've been squelching the research that proves they've been making $$ billions (trillions?) at the expense of the health of billions of consumers the world over.

It may be as simple as the added sugar, but I'm more inclined to bet there's some chemical added in minute amounts that multiplies the addictive properties of sugar.

But then, I am a wingnut conspiracy fan- especially when that kind of money is involved. Worked for decades for Big Tobacco...

 

Yes, this has been revealed -- it is a manufactured sweetener. They continually mask it by changing the name, High Fructose Corn Syrup,... it was first created because sugar prices were fluctuating too much. [Nixon era] and fully in use by 1980 which was about when the obesity epidemic kicked in... it is said to be 8x more addictive than cocaine... there are documentaries on this and most officious is that it is in so many products which they mask too with using the word "nature" and "natural" in the brand names... it is not easy to avoid.

[dontoearth]

13 hours ago, Jingthing said:

An informative article about the obesity epidemic in the USA, with on topic discussion of the SET POINT issue.

 

 

http://qz.com/752184/how-obesity-became-the-new-face-of-disability-in-america/

Thanks for that article.  I haven't seen much on the set point research.  I am hoping for a lot more than just write everyone off when they reach the BMI of 30.  I think they will discover aging increases the resistance of the set point in obesity.    I have been struggling for the first time to take off weight despite hitting the gym and watching every morsel I eat.  I just turned 60 and I have never encountered such a struggle! Most exercise research is done on young athletes.  This is not helpful to the general public. I have noticed the same in most men in there late 40's,50's.  They just can't get back into their proper weight after the holidays and every year it gets a little worse.  So now we know the problem and hopefully solutions are on the way.

[dontoearth]

10 hours ago, ClutchClark said:

Well all I know is the obese folks buying coffee drinks that look more like ice cream sundaes every morning at Starbucks are making lifestyle choices. 

 

I am old enough to remember when the public was conned into believing that cigarette smokers were making a lifestyle choice.  The tobacco companies produced endless research that nicotine was not an addictive substance.   Sort of like the sugar lobby today?  The dairy council?  I think sugary drinks and milk products like whipped cream are just as addictive as nicotine to some people.  BTW, the tobacco industry never has to this day admitted nicotine is an addictive substance.  So much for industry self-regulation!

[ClutchClark]

3 hours ago, dontoearth said:

I am old enough to remember when the public was conned into believing that cigarette smokers were making a lifestyle choice.  The tobacco companies produced endless research that nicotine was not an addictive substance.   Sort of like the sugar lobby today?  The dairy council?  I think sugary drinks and milk products like whipped cream are just as addictive as nicotine to some people.  BTW, the tobacco industry never has to this day admitted nicotine is an addictive substance.  So much for industry self-regulation!

 

I don't even know how to respond to this...are you joking or serious?

 

The Dairy Industry is secretly addicting unsuspecting folks to whip cream?

[dontoearth]

1 hour ago, ClutchClark said:

 

I don't even know how to respond to this...are you joking or serious?

 

The Dairy Industry is secretly addicting unsuspecting folks to whip cream?

with sugar in it?  Yes!  Of course!  Have you ever tasted real whipped cream without sugar?  My grandparents owned a real farm when I was a kid.  Grandma made it sometimes from fresh cream.  Good taste but you don't want much.  It is nothing but fat.

[MissAndry]

RimPing by the river (near Dukes and opposite River Market) had whipping cream on nearly half price offer today. 110bht for 1 liter (down from 190bht). I've been scoffing scones jam and whipped cream all afternoon.

 

No weight loss for me today.

[robblok]

On 9-8-2016 at 7:37 PM, ClutchClark said:

 

I don't even know how to respond to this...are you joking or serious?

 

The Dairy Industry is secretly addicting unsuspecting folks to whip cream?

What I often find is that the fattest people have the most excuses on why they are fat and are looking at countless things that make it out of their control.

 

Now I do believe that there are things that work against us when losing weight and I know for a fact not everyone burns the same amount of calories. I got a slow thyroid myself (with tests to prove it). However all those things working against us would explain maybe a 10% difference in bodyweight.. not the huge differences that are there. The rest is lifestyle choices. 

[tropo]

7 hours ago, robblok said:

What I often find is that the fattest people have the most excuses on why they are fat and are looking at countless things that make it out of their control.

 

Now I do believe that there are things that work against us when losing weight and I know for a fact not everyone burns the same amount of calories. I got a slow thyroid myself (with tests to prove it). However all those things working against us would explain maybe a 10% difference in bodyweight.. not the huge differences that are there. The rest is lifestyle choices. 

No doubt about it - threads discussing the importance of exercise for fat loss are never too popular.

[dontoearth]

8 hours ago, robblok said:

What I often find is that the fattest people have the most excuses on why they are fat and are looking at countless things that make it out of their control.

 

Now I do believe that there are things that work against us when losing weight and I know for a fact not everyone burns the same amount of calories. I got a slow thyroid myself (with tests to prove it). However all those things working against us would explain maybe a 10% difference in bodyweight.. not the huge differences that are there. The rest is lifestyle choices. 

I think there is a lot more going on than just calories and metabolism.   It would be difficult to explain it all with just a 'lifestyle choice.'  It is just impossible to write-off the 66% of the population in the US that is obese as making a 'lifestyle choice.'   Visiting a hospital or medical center and realizing the doctors and nurses are often obese is a real eye opener.  Do you think those people with all those years of sacrifice for medical degrees are secretly slothful?  lazy?  slow?  Do they lack discipline and willpower?  Something else is clearly at work here and we don't understand it.  I agree there are a few lazy, slothful, slow people who with little discipline and will power really don't care if they are fat.  I just don't see it explaining the huge epidemic we face.  I been mulling all this over for a long time.  The endless disagreements on diet and exercise just don't help.   I read Jason Fong's book:  The Obesity Code: Unlocking the secrets of weight loss.  He sees obesity as a hormone problem with insulin and blood sugar.  He believes almost all basic diet advice is worthless because the dieter can't break thru the set point of weight or make the weight loss stick without addressing the insulin problem.  I think he is on the right track.

[dontoearth]

26 minutes ago, tropo said:

No doubt about it - threads discussing the importance of exercise for fat loss are never too popular.

I really believe in exercise.  I am hitting the gym 4 days a week for around 2 hours of exercise each day.  1 hour of resistance training!  1 hour of cardio.  I have a trainer.  I got a quick 13 lbs of weight loss in 12 sessions in only 2 weeks.  I lost another 7 lbs over the course of 7 weeks and not a pound more.  This is in conjunction with dieting and eliminating bad foods like sugar and refined carbs.  That set point problem (and the rebound of weight sure to follow) can't be answered by any of the diet plans or by any type of exercise.  Exercise  is only one of many solutions that have to be implemented.  Anyone serious about this subject should be exercising.  They should also be looking for more answers down the road when things get tougher.

[tropo]

17 minutes ago, dontoearth said:

I think there is a lot more going on than just calories and metabolism.   It would be difficult to explain it all with just a 'lifestyle choice.'  It is just impossible to write-off the 66% of the population in the US that is obese as making a 'lifestyle choice.'   Visiting a hospital or medical center and realizing the doctors and nurses are often obese is a real eye opener.  Do you think those people with all those years of sacrifice for medical degrees are secretly slothful?  lazy?  slow?  Do they lack discipline and willpower?  Something else is clearly at work here and we don't understand it.  I agree there are a few lazy, slothful, slow people who with little discipline and will power really don't care if they are fat.  I just don't see it explaining the huge epidemic we face.  I been mulling all this over for a long time.  The endless disagreements on diet and exercise just don't help.   I read Jason Fong's book:  The Obesity Code: Unlocking the secrets of weight loss.  He sees obesity as a hormone problem with insulin and blood sugar.  He believes almost all basic diet advice is worthless because the dieter can't break thru the set point of weight or make the weight loss stick without addressing the insulin problem.  I think he is on the right track.

I would say at least 95% of your 66% are like they are due to lifestyle choices. The rest may have medical conditions beyond their control.

 

Using the physical condition of doctors, nurses and other health care professionals as evidence that even knowledgeable people can't get it right is a very weak argument. Most of these professionals are too busy to take care of themselves. Just because you know something doesn't mean you're going to act on that knowledge. It's just too easy to be lazy.

 

I wouldn't go to a doctor for help with losing weight, unless I'm in need of a pill.

 

btw, doctors and nurses in Thailand are usually not obese. Maybe they have the answer for you?

 

[dontoearth]

My example is directly from The Obesity Code: Unlocking the secrets of weight loss.   Dr. Jason Fong indeed does have some numbers on what is causing obesity.  He doesn't even bother to quantify 'lifestyle choices' although he admits they may be one of many minor causal factors.  As for the doctors and nurses in Thailand I predict they will be obese in 20 years.  I just read somewhere that China was overtaking the USA in the number of new cases for Type II diabetes.  I first came to Thailand in 1987 and was amazed not see a single obese person on my 30 day visit.  I can't say that now.  I can walk down any street and see some overweight Thai.  We need to get a handle on what is causing this problem.

[tropo]

9 minutes ago, dontoearth said:

I really believe in exercise.  I am hitting the gym 4 days a week for around 2 hours of exercise each day.  1 hour of resistance training!  1 hour of cardio.  I have a trainer.  I got a quick 13 lbs of weight loss in 12 sessions in only 2 weeks.  I lost another 7 lbs over the course of 7 weeks and not a pound more.  This is in conjunction with dieting and eliminating bad foods like sugar and refined carbs.  That set point problem (and the rebound of weight sure to follow) can't be answered by any of the diet plans or by any type of exercise.  Exercise  is only one of many solutions that have to be implemented.  Anyone serious about this subject should be exercising.  They should also be looking for more answers down the road when things get tougher.

You lost 20 lbs in 12 sessions in only 2 weeks, and then another 1 lb a week for 7 weeks... so you lost 27 pounds in just over 2 months. That's a lot! Well done!

 

How long ago was that? How long have you been steady on the same weight?

 

IMO you lost weight too fast and you expect too much. Have you determined your fat percentage so you know what you're losing? Just stepping on the scales doesn't tell the whole story. You would expect some muscle gain with the level of your resistance training.

 

Assuming your calorie consumption is the same and your exercise program is the same, you're probably not creating a deficit. I don't believe in set points. Even if you do (believe in them), your set point is not your new lower weight, but you're initial weight.

 

Have you tried HIT or HIIT cardio? I never do an hour of cardio, unless it was walking or something very low intensity that I wouldn't even call cardio. I think you'll get more from higher intensity shorter sessions.

 

Have you had any blood tests for hormones (Estradiol, testosterone, thyroid), or blood sugar? These can all influence fat loss/gain. For example, if estrogen is to high, testosterone is too low, fat is harder to shed. Also low thyroid makes it more difficult, as well as high blood sugar. Do you have much visceral fat, or mainly subcutaneous fat? If you have man boobs, that could indicate low testosterone and high estrogen. Lots of visceral fat could indicate impaired sugar metabolism.

 

We don't want you to give up as you're obviously highly motivated and it's good to see you getting off your a** to exercise.

[tropo]

18 minutes ago, dontoearth said:

My example is directly from The Obesity Code: Unlocking the secrets of weight loss.   Dr. Jason Fong indeed does have some numbers on what is causing obesity.  He doesn't even bother to quantify 'lifestyle choices' although he admits they may be one of many minor causal factors.  As for the doctors and nurses in Thailand I predict they will be obese in 20 years.  I just read somewhere that China was overtaking the USA in the number of new cases for Type II diabetes.  I first came to Thailand in 1987 and was amazed not see a single obese person on my 30 day visit.  I can't say that now.  I can walk down any street and see some overweight Thai.  We need to get a handle on what is causing this problem.

People who suffer from diabetes are usually wrongly accused of causing their diabetes, and this helps no one. It gives everyone the impression that people are responsible for causing their diabetes.

 

You have to ask the question: Are these people diabetic because they are fat, or are they fat because they are diabetic.

 

I'm not fat, but I still suffer from impaired sugar metabolism. I keep it well controlled by how I eat and exercise, but the condition doesn't go away. I didn't cause it by being obese as I have never been obese. I have never been over the athletic range of body fat percentages (17%). I have also exercised my whole life AND taken care of my diet and have a healthy lifestyle (no drugs or alcohol).

 

This morning I was over the normal range (FBS) at 105 mg/dl at 10% body fat. Sometimes I'm a lot lower, but the problem persists. The sooner we can stop blaming people for causing their diabetes, the sooner we  can help them.

 

You will find plenty of fat people who aren't diabetic and many lean people who are.

 

(Sorry, just had to vent about this)

 

 

[dontoearth]

14 minutes ago, tropo said:

You lost 20 lbs in 12 sessions in only 2 weeks, and then another 1 lb a week for 7 weeks... so you lost 27 pounds in just over 2 months. That's a lot! Well done!

 

How long ago was that? How long have you been steady on the same weight?

 

IMO you lost weight too fast and you expect too much. Have you determined your fat percentage so you know what you're losing? Just stepping on the scales doesn't tell the whole story. You would expect some muscle gain with the level of your resistance training.

 

Assuming your calorie consumption is the same and your exercise program is the same, you're probably not creating a deficit. I don't believe in set points. Even if you do (believe in them), your set point is not your new lower weight, but you're initial weight.

 

Have you tried HIT or HIIT cardio? I never do an hour of cardio, unless it was walking or something very low intensity that I wouldn't even call cardio. I think you'll get more from higher intensity shorter sessions.

 

Have you had any blood tests for hormones (Estradiol, testosterone, thyroid), or blood sugar? These can all influence fat loss/gain. For example, if estrogen is to high, testosterone is too low, fat is harder to shed. Also low thyroid makes it more difficult, as well as high blood sugar. Do you have much visceral fat, or mainly subcutaneous fat? If you have man boobs, that could indicate low testosterone and high estrogen. Lots of visceral fat could indicate impaired sugar metabolism.

 

We don't want you to give up as you're obviously highly motivated and it's good to see you getting off your a** to exercise.

Thanks for your interest and help.  It was 13 lbs in 2 weeks and a 1 lb a week over the next 7 weeks.  20 lbs in all.  The last 4 weeks have brought no change to my body.  I mis spoke.  I meant to use the word plateau not set point.  I have had all the blood test and do supplement with real testosterone by prescription while i am working out.  I do have stomach fat and a little bit of manboob.  I am 60 years old sort of goes with the territory.   I am at a 30 BMI and at about a 29% body fat.  I am 5'10" was 218 lbs and now 198 lbs.  I would like to be at 174 lbs or so.  I don't know much about fat loss or muscle gain.  The only thing I can remember reading was that muscle gain is minor in terms of pounds and that was for much younger professional athletes.  I think I read 12 lbs is probably about it in a year for a 20ish or so athlete.  I have little reason to believe I will get more than a few pounds of muscle out of all this work.  My waist has reduced itself a belt notch.  I am just now starting to skip breakfast to get a small fast.  I am not reducing calories further as that will cause more problems later with the set point.  I believe in the set point and I think the National Institute of Health proved it to my satisfaction.  That was in 2013 so it will take awhile to get acceptance.  I do believe you are completely correct and I am trying the fasting program to improve sugar metabolism.  Any other good ideas?    I always hated breakfast and now I have an excuse to ditch it.  I have not been up to the physical condition of HIT.   My program ends in 60 days or so and I am feeling BLAH about the progress.  I have exercised off/on my whole life.  I came to Thailand specifically to get this personal trainer I use now as the first few weeks are always unbelieveable.

[MissAndry]

1 hour ago, dontoearth said:

I think there is a lot more going on than just calories and metabolism.   It would be difficult to explain it all with just a 'lifestyle choice.'  It is just impossible to write-off the 66% of the population in the US that is obese as making a 'lifestyle choice.' 

 

No it is as easy as that, it's a lifestyle choice pure and simple.

Fat people are fat because they don't care what they look like or how other people view them.

It's a lazy world we live in, I've never seen a fat active person, fat people sit and eat.

I know, I'm one of them. No excuses from me. Too little exercise, and too much food.