British Jews seek German citizenship on Brexit fears

[Morakot]

6 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Are you actually denying that the bible stories have been used to stir up traditional Jew hatred through the ages?

 

I don't know what Shawn is saying, but I suspect these stories were taken out of context and were utterly twisted beyond any recognition, for some self-serving wicked political end. Terrible...

[JingerBen]

3 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

I think it's highly recommended to read Karl Marx essay 'On the Jewish question' to realy understand the OP.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jewish_Question

 

It's far from a 'fait divers' concerning citizenship.

 

 

Excellent reference that speaks to the topic.

Most of the replies so far have been emotionally charged nonsense.

 

[Galactus]

16 minutes ago, Morakot said:

 

'Then, of course, there was the Brexit vote. I felt sick when I heard that the leave vote had won the referendum. I was about to be stripped of my EU passport, no longer would I have the right to work and live in 27 other European countries....  '

 

 

'work' sounds like an economic reason to me though...as author states as one of his reasons.

if jewish people get robbed out of their eu passports, chance of working at other eu countries will be out of element and making business will be harder for their interconnected businesses. of course, not all jews are same too.

[Morakot]

8 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

I think it's highly recommended to read Karl Marx essay 'On the Jewish question' to realy understand the OP.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jewish_Question

 

It's far from a 'fait divers' concerning citizenship.

 

 

 

Now, what's the link between Harding and Marx here? I'm intrigued. 

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, JingerBen said:

Excellent reference that speaks to the topic.

Most of the replies so far have been emotionally charged nonsense.

 

That essay was obviously odiously anti-semitic.

Don't even bother to say people with Jewish ethnic backgrounds can't be antisemitic. 

It is true that Jew haters seem to find special power when people with Jewish ethnic backgrounds say poisonously hateful things about Jews.

See! A "Jew" said it. It must be right.

Like I've been saying, antisemitism is an infectious mental disease, and throughout history many Jews have been infected as well. 

Edited August 20, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

8 minutes ago, Morakot said:

 

I don't know what Shawn is saying, but I suspect these stories were taken out of context and were utterly twisted beyond any recognition, for some self-serving wicked political end. Terrible...

I also find Shawn's rhetoric extremely slippery. Like he talks at the edges of things, makes ambiguous insinuations, but doesn't ever seem to make it CLEAR what he really thinks.

I actually prefer people who say odious hateful things that are CLEAR about what they actually believe. 

[Morakot]

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Doesn't matter.

For Jew haters and/or obsessive Israel demonizers ANY topic touching on Jews or Israel is about broadcasting the symptoms of the mental disease of antisemitism and trying to infect others with it. It's very infectious and it's pervasive, even in nations with NO actual Jews living there.

 

To add a Brexit twist,  it's well known there has been a spike in anti-immigrant, minority people hate crimes in the U.K. since the passage of it. Reportedly there has been a spike in antisemitic hate crimes there as well.

 

 

https://www.the-pool.com/news-views/opinion/2016/26/with-brexit-on-the-right-and-corbyn-on-the-left-antisemitism-is-on-the-rise

 

It's a valid point!!

 

But I'd also like to point out that much of the recent discussions about anti-Semitism and the UK Labour Party, needs also to understood in the light of an ongoing internal power struggle, were certain fractions deliberately seem to portray Corbyn's pro-Palestinian views in the past as antisemitic. Corbyn who is actually a pacifist is probably unjustly blamed with regard to the suspected underlying antisemitic views of some party members, who seemed to have discriminated against fellow party member on the grounds of being British Jews.

 

This is not really a Brexit issue with the Labour party on this matter.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/03/even-labours-probe-into-its-own-anti-semitism-excludes-jews/

 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2016 by Morakot

[Morakot]

9 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I actually prefer people who say odious hateful things that are CLEAR about what they actually believe. 

 

JT... but many things are often not as clear as we like to see them. It's important to grasp the often transient, partially contested, partially contradicting, fragmented nature of our existence.

 

I'm sure Shawn will clarify and some certainty will come to the fore.

[Morakot]

26 minutes ago, Galactus said:

 

 

'work' sounds like an economic reason to me though...as author states as one of his reasons.

if jewish people get robbed out of their eu passports, chance of working at other eu countries will be out of element and making business will be harder for their interconnected businesses. of course, not all jews are same too.

 

Exactly like all those other British people, who are looking to get what not passport. Nothing to do with being Jewish so ever.

[Shawn0000]

44 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Wow.

What's your agenda?

Are you actually denying that the bible stories have been used to stir up traditional Jew hatred through the ages?

 

 

When you post a quote ending with a preposterous generalization like, "That’s a subtlety that Christian preachers don’t have. They don’t get it."  that infers that it is you with the agenda, mine is to keep things real, your seems to be to spread hatred.

[Thorgal]

36 minutes ago, Morakot said:

 

Now, what's the link between Harding and Marx here? I'm intrigued. 

Harding tried to explain in his novell why his family lost their 'House at the Lake' during the nazi regime.

 

Marx tried to explain in his essay why people 'suddenly' migrate and/or apply religious conversion for capitalism and political domination. Oftenly, most of these people at one point of their life they possess somewhere, somehow a real house at a lake...

[happy Joe]

Antisemitism is rising everywhere. It is an indisputable fact.

 

In some years Israel has shown that there is no difference in behavior between the Jews of Israel and their immediate neighbors Muslim Arabs. The stronger beats weaker without restraint.

 

With this land the Jews have earned the right to receive the same answer as the Islamist:

 

"Stop your Shoah lament. It is old and I was not born. If you're not Happy, will live in your promised land, but not in mine"

 

As an individual, religion of persons indifferent to me, it takes all sorts to make a pleasant world. But if someone try a lobbying pro-Israel, or pro-Isis, or pro all entities that attempt to dominate by force, that person immediately becomes undesirable..

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, Morakot said:

 

It's a valid point!!

 

But I'd also like to point out that much of the recent discussions about anti-Semitism and the UK Labour Party, needs also to understood in the light of an ongoing internal power struggle, were certain fractions deliberately seem to portray Corbyn's pro-Palestinian views in the past as antisemitic. Corbyn who is actually a pacifist is probably unjustly blamed with regard to the suspected underlying antisemitic views of some party members, who seemed to have discriminated against fellow party member on the grounds of being British Jews.

 

This is not really a Brexit issue with the Labour party on this matter.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/03/even-labours-probe-into-its-own-anti-semitism-excludes-jews/

 

 

 

 

Corbyn is certainly not a pacifist. His background is Orthodox Trotskyism. The business with the anti-Semitism that popped out into the open with Ken Livingstone is that the hard left has gone populist and the crossover with the hard right has certainly made for some unpleasant bedfellows. Some of the smells emanating from the Brexit camp will have been taken as a signal for not only Jews to pause for reflection.

[Shawn0000]

49 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

 

Corbyn is certainly not a pacifist. His background is Orthodox Trotskyism. The business with the anti-Semitism that popped out into the open with Ken Livingstone is that the hard left has gone populist and the crossover with the hard right has certainly made for some unpleasant bedfellows. Some of the smells emanating from the Brexit camp will have been taken as a signal for not only Jews to pause for reflection.

 

No, Corbyn is not an Orthodox Trotskyist, he merely did not seek to rid the party of Militant, he wasn't even a member, that claim was just some New Labour smear and completely baseless.

[Jingthing]

3 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

When you post a quote ending with a preposterous generalization like, "That’s a subtlety that Christian preachers don’t have. They don’t get it."  that infers that it is you with the agenda, mine is to keep things real, your seems to be to spread hatred.

 Promoting a vile fantasy world that denies that Christian bible stories have been used and distorted to promote hatred even genocide and negative stereotypes of Jews through the ages is not keeping it real. Indeed, even the CATHOLIC CHURCH acknowledges that now ... but it took them long enough, so what's your excuse for not seeing the light?

 

 Again, you fail to reveal your agenda. Instead you deflect. 

Edited August 20, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

2 hours ago, happy Joe said:

Antisemitism is rising everywhere. It is an indisputable fact.

 

In some years Israel has shown that there is no difference in behavior between the Jews of Israel and their immediate neighbors Muslim Arabs. The stronger beats weaker without restraint.

 

With this land the Jews have earned the right to receive the same answer as the Islamist:

 

"Stop your Shoah lament. It is old and I was not born. If you're not Happy, will live in your promised land, but not in mine"

 

As an individual, religion of persons indifferent to me, it takes all sorts to make a pleasant world. But if someone try a lobbying pro-Israel, or pro-Isis, or pro all entities that attempt to dominate by force, that person immediately becomes undesirable..

So you're suggesting there is an equivalence between Isis and the state of Israel? No, there is not. No, Muslim Jew hatred did not begin with the establishment of the Israeli state. It is true that historically in general Jews were better off with  lower "dhima" status in Muslim lands than in Europe with the constant waves of more explicit persecution, expulsions, pogroms, etc.

 

From 1919:

 

Edited August 20, 2016 by Jingthing

[Basil B]

Hedging their bets...

 

I think I would jump at it if I were able to get dual (or multi) nationality too, one of the most abused privileges going.

 

It is not just Jews but other groups who had to escape Germany due Nazi persecution, and Germany is right to reinstate nationality to those who would have been still German now.

 

Also I think we are looking at a very small percentage of those entitled to do so who now have British citizenship applying for German citizenship too.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Basil B

[Shawn0000]

32 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

 Promoting a vile fantasy world that denies that Christian bible stories have been used and distorted to promote hatred even genocide and negative stereotypes of Jews through the ages is not keeping it real. Indeed, even the CATHOLIC CHURCH acknowledges that now ... but it took them long enough, so what's your excuse for not seeing the light?

 

 Again, you fail to reveal your agenda. Instead you deflect. 

 

That bares no resemblance to what I said, I do not deny history, I deny the final sentence of your quote, which was not giving acknowledgement to the Catholic Churches acknowledgement, it was denying it and making out that they are continuing to stereotype Jews, it was nonsense and that as all I said, the rest of the tripe you wrote above was a figment of your paranoid imagination.  I did reveal my agenda, it is to keep you real.

[MisterTee]

4 hours ago, Thorgal said:

4 hours ago, Thorgal said:

I think it's highly recommended to read Karl Marx essay 'On the Jewish question' to realy understand the OP.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jewish_Question

 

It's far from a 'fait divers' concerning citizenship.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, JingerBen said:

Excellent reference that speaks to the topic.

Most of the replies so far have been emotionally charged nonsense.

 

 

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

That essay was obviously odiously anti-semitic.

Don't even bother to say people with Jewish ethnic backgrounds can't be antisemitic. 

It is true that Jew haters seem to find special power when people with Jewish ethnic backgrounds say poisonously hateful things about Jews.

See! A "Jew" said it. It must be right.

Like I've been saying, antisemitism is an infectious mental disease, and throughout history many Jews have been infected as well. 

I think it's highly recommended to read Karl Marx essay 'On the Jewish question' to realy understand the OP.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jewish_Question

 

It's far from a 'fait divers' concerning citizenship.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

That essay was obviously odiously anti-semitic.

Don't even bother to say people with Jewish ethnic backgrounds can't be antisemitic. 

It is true that Jew haters seem to find special power when people with Jewish ethnic backgrounds say poisonously hateful things about Jews.

See! A "Jew" said it. It must be right.

Like I've been saying, antisemitism is an infectious mental disease, and throughout history many Jews have been infected as well. 

Why don't you address the points raised in the Karl Marx essay and their relation to the topic instead of playing the race card?

[SheungWan]

2 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

No, Corbyn is not an Orthodox Trotskyist, he merely did not seek to rid the party of Militant, he wasn't even a member, that claim was just some New Labour smear and completely baseless.

 

Never mind Militant (or rather the Revolutionary Socialist League RSL) They are just one Orthodox Trot group inside the Labour Party. Corbyn's antics press all the buttons comrades and his evasiveness over Brexit and Livingstone's preceding nonsense do not disappoint. The real point here as far as this thread is concerned is that Corbyn has been not only a weak link against the background unpleasantness of Brexit but happy to walk on the other side in the grab for populist supporters. Oh, I almost forgot, which Trot group is Dear Leader Jeremy most in bed with? the IMG (not called that now).

[Shawn0000]

26 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

 

Never mind Militant (or rather the Revolutionary Socialist League RSL) They are just one Orthodox Trot group inside the Labour Party. Corbyn's antics press all the buttons comrades and his evasiveness over Brexit and Livingstone's preceding nonsense do not disappoint. The real point here as far as this thread is concerned is that Corbyn has been not only a weak link against the background unpleasantness of Brexit but happy to walk on the other side in the grab for populist supporters. Oh, I almost forgot, which Trot group is Dear Leader Jeremy most in bed with? the IMG (not called that now).

 

It must be awful to be so hopelessly gullible.

[Ulysses G.]

4 hours ago, happy Joe said:

 

In some years Israel has shown that there is no difference in behavior between the Jews of Israel and their immediate neighbors Muslim Arabs. 

 

Other than democracy, many more Nobel Laureates and a successful economy based on new innovations in technology. 

[SheungWan]

24 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

It must be awful to be so hopelessly gullible.

 

Of course some might argue that Jeremy Corbyn is more influenced by his Director of Strategy and Communications, the old-time Communist Party member and Russian Soviet defender Seamus Milne. Not too much love lost there between the Stalinists and Trots in the past, but in today's populist new world, why not? The sub-text of all of this is that right-wing populism slips through the door and physical exit begins to be considered at least among some.

[Morakot]

20 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

The sub-text of all of this is that right-wing populism slips through the door and physical exit begins to be considered at least among some.

 

Well, certainly populism per se has dominated politics of whatever affiliation. That's not just something that has happened since the Brexit referendum or Corbyn.

[Scott]

Off-topic post removed.  

 

[Morakot]

6 hours ago, Thorgal said:

Harding tried to explain in his novell why his family lost their 'House at the Lake' during the nazi regime.

 

Marx tried to explain in his essay why people 'suddenly' migrate and/or apply religious conversion for capitalism and political domination. Oftenly, most of these people at one point of their life they possess somewhere, somehow a real house at a lake...

 

I think, this a highly selective and contrived reading of Marx!

 

Harding is interesting here, because his engagement with Germany is not really connected to the Brexit referendum as such. He is an author who for some considerable time explored his own German heritage and learned to appreciate contemporary German culture and the people. Brexit, I'd say was the "final straw" that made him consider the application, as a step on a very long journey.

 

It's not something that just happened 'suddenly' and definitely it's not something as Marx would have put it (in current parlance) that with emergence of modern nation states some people choose a "flag of convenience" to protect their means of production to further exploit others.

 

 

Edited August 20, 2016 by Morakot

[Shawn0000]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

 

Of course some might argue that Jeremy Corbyn is more influenced by his Director of Strategy and Communications, the old-time Communist Party member and Russian Soviet defender Seamus Milne. Not too much love lost there between the Stalinists and Trots in the past, but in today's populist new world, why not? The sub-text of all of this is that right-wing populism slips through the door and physical exit begins to be considered at least among some.

 

In your bizarre twist on reality anyone who speaks not only of the atrocities of the Soviet Union but dares to mention their achievements must be a Stalinist, your posts read like a 5p tabloid.

[Shawn0000]

2 hours ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

Other than democracy, many more Nobel Laureates and a successful economy based on new innovations in technology. 

 

"I tell you, in my opinion, the cornerstone of democracy is free press — that's the cornerstone. I'm convinced if the press... it was not possible, of course, but if the free press existed through this century, there wouldn't be Hitler there wouldn't Stalin, there wouldn't be all this incredible price people have to pay for their freedom, you know, because that's what they're always first after… newspapers, radio, television, everything like that."

Miloš Forman

 

Israels press is currently rated by Freedom House as being "partly free" due to the fact that the government requires press to have a license and rejects 15% of applications, also due to the fact that the government censors the press, also due to the fact that the government shuts down channels entirely when they do not suit their agenda and also because Israel is still under "emergency regulations" meaning they can enforce the military censor any time they want if they don't want something they are doing to be seen by the world, all typical moves of an oppressive regime.  I think it was more that kind of thing they were getting at.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

"I tell you, in my opinion, the cornerstone of democracy is free press — that's the cornerstone. I'm convinced if the press... it was not possible, of course, but if the free press existed through this century, there wouldn't be Hitler there wouldn't Stalin, there wouldn't be all this incredible price people have to pay for their freedom, you know, because that's what they're always first after… newspapers, radio, television, everything like that."

Miloš Forman

 

Israels press is currently rated by Freedom House as being "partly free" due to the fact that the government requires press to have a license and rejects 15% of applications, also due to the fact that the government censors the press, also due to the fact that the government shuts down channels entirely when they do not suit their agenda and also because Israel is still under "emergency regulations" meaning they can enforce the military censor any time they want if they don't want something they are doing to be seen by the world, all typical moves of an oppressive regime.  I think it was more that kind of thing they were getting at.

Not perfect, but most free in the middle east.

 

See your source:

https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-press/freedom-press-2016

 

[lostinisaan]

On 8/17/2016 at 6:17 AM, MobileContent said:

Jews have a special status in Germany and as a German I fully support it due to the history what we did to them from 1933-45.

 

    Using the word we is something strange to me. I wasn't even born when this happened and none of my family was pro Hitler. I was always against Nazis, their brainless followers and most of them are surprisingly in the US now. 

 

     I totally agree that they must have a special status in Germany and what was done to millions was insane, but I wouldn't say "we" did that to them.

 

   Even if the dual citizenship has financial reasons, you can't blame a whole race for being smarter than others.