Prohibited Entry KBV international

[Jk2005]

Hey Everyone. I've got a warning and questions from my recent entry into Thailand through Krabi International.

 

TL;DR: I was denied entry, and detained for 20 hours before i was expelled from the kingdom.

 

I hold a United States Passport and I've been traveling in and out of Thailand for the past 2 years on Visa Exempt Stamps. I go back to the US 2-3 times a year for 5-6 weeks at a time. I usually enter through BKK or DMK every 60 days and after 30 days get an extension.

 

Yesterday i flew into KBV from Singapore to meet some friends visiting from the US and was prohibited entry into the kingdom. This was on the 18th of August. I left Thailand on the 17th of August simply to exit to Singapore and enter again.

 

When i Arrived at KBV the Immigration it looked as if the Immigration Officer was about to stamp me in like usually and then happened to notice a few pages of extension stamps.

 

He then took my passport over to his boss and i was asked to walk over there. I was told that I have been entering too many times and need a proper visa. I was also told that i would not be able to enter the kingdom.

 

Sadly my Thai is not good enough to communicate so i called my girlfriend to help translate, and that is what they confirmed with her. I was told to please have a seat and wait. They also asked what i do in Thailand, and i told them the truth. I live here with my girlfriend, she comes to the US and I come here, but we are mostly here.

 

Next the Airline staff (Air Asia) came to me and asked me if i had a ticket booked to Singapore for the next day I responded no i didn't know i was going to be rejected, and known has told me the process of what happens after i am denied. She was quite rude so i called my girlfriend to have her explain that they haven't told me anything yet.

 

Then they walked out with a TM.35 form (pictured) and asked me to sign. It is half in English, so i read the English Portion and signed it. Little did i know there is a line unfilled on the English portion and hand written in thai. I just found out now that the hand written bit say " Insufficient funds and too many in and outs." Not once did they ask me a money question. I had plenty of Thai Baht in my pocket and could have easily shown them a bank statement to confirm my financial situation.

 

Firstly i don't know why they would write something like that without even questioning me.

 

After i was handed back over to airport staff (my babysitter for the next 20 hours, and they are in control of my passport) I was escorted to get food and purchase a ticket to Singapore. I was then locked in an old office room for 20 hours. The lock was a chain from the outside. Is this normal? I'm not a criminal. I've never overstayed and I have never broken the law here. I simply use the system to the maximum of its allowance.

 

So for the next 20 hours i was locked in this office to sleep on the floor with a small pillow and blanket, a toilet and no shower. When they came in the morning i was ready to get on the plane to Singapore. They took my to buy food and then to the gate. I Was still not in possession of my passport.

 

When i arrived in Singapore i was escorted to Changi Immigration and questioned about the situation. They said they have never seen a holder of a US passport deported from the country. I told them i was just unlucky.

 

I was stamped and allowed entry to singapore, and finally given back my passport. I now have a blue stamp in my passport (pictured), and it says rejected for "imm-reason." It does not mention any insufficient funds line."

 

I'm currently scheduled to go back to the US tomorrow, as i booked an emergency last minute flight and i plan on getting the proper visa, but, will this affect my ability to obtain the visa. Will the insufficient funds thing be even worse? this is all so frustrating.

 

On a completely different note. All of the Airport staff (immigration and airline staff) was extremely kind and as helpful as could be with a language barrier. (Besides the one AirAsia Lady)

 

 

Has this happened to anybody?

 

Im going to apply for the multiple entry tourist visa. What effect will this have on that and how long should i wait before applying/entering again.

 

Thanks

Edited August 19, 2016 by Jk2005

[elviajero]

• The denied entry probably won't affect you getting a visa, but it would be entirely up to the Embassy/Consulate where you apply. If you got a new passport they wouldn't know about the denied entry as they are not connected to the immigration system.
• You haven't been blacklisted and a previous denial isn't a reason to deny you in the future.
• Once you have the visa you should be allowed to enter as their real reason was due to too many visa exempt entries and not having an appropriate visa.
• Using section 12. 2 of the immigration act is a common reason used when they want to formally deny entry.

[thaitero]

Huh, What a story. Thanks for sharing.

i quess people like OP should use suvarnhabhum if possible.

[dddave]

Keep in mind that even if you obtain a Visa in the US, Immigration officers at your Thailand POE still have the authority to deny you entry.  I think Thaitero's suggestion of a far busier airport such as Suvarnabhumi is a good one.

[Jk2005]

Ok, Thanks for the Info. I was contemplating getting a new passport just because I don't want this stamp, and I don't want another country to be flipping through and be "Oh, he had a problem there, maybe he'll be one here". So, I'll go ahead and get it. 

 

This was actually the second time i used Krabi to enter, and only used it because i was meeting friends from the US. I always go DMK or BKK

 

 

[Enzian]

I'm curious about a lesser aspect of your story, if I may. It sounds like your girlfriend (not wife) comes and goes to the US with you. How is that possible without a lot of trouble getting US visas for her? Or have you simply succeeded in getting her qualified for such US ins-and-outs through the usual application process? It looks daunting to me.

[Maestro]

18 hours ago, Jk2005 said:

Then they walked out with a TM.35 form (pictured) and asked me to sign. It is half in English, so i read the English Portion and signed it. Little did i know there is a line unfilled on the English portion and hand written in thai. I just found out now that the hand written bit say " Insufficient funds and too many in and outs." Not once did they ask me a money question. I had plenty of Thai Baht in my pocket and could have easily shown them a bank statement to confirm my financial situation.

 

It was wrong of the immigration officer not to ask you to show money, minimum 20k Baht or the equivalent in other currencies. The section numbers from the Immigration Act in the TM.35 he made you acknowledge refer to the reasons for the denied entry but the officer should have told you what these reasons are and what particular reason or reasons he used for his denial, not just give a list of all the possible reasons that the law allows.

 

The stamp in the passport has the handwritten annotation that Section 12(2) is the reason but it also has the pre-printed "or Section 54, Section 81 or Section 82", without deletion of the Sections 54, 81 and 82 which were not applicable in this case.

 

Quote

 

Section 12 : Aliens which fall into any of the following categories are excluded from entering into the
Kingdom:

...

2. Having no appropriate means of living following entrance into the Kingdom.

...

 

 

The denial stamp you got is the first time I see this stamp. Other immigration offices have used this stamp in the past, making reference to Section 12(2) and (3):

 

Image source: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/760825-rejected-at-the-airport-with-a-valid-visa33/?page=5#comment-8403693

[JB300]

As an aside, why did they send you back to Singapore & not insist on you returning back to the US? 

 

Would have thought that unless you have "Right" (PR etc...) to enter Singapore, ICA could easily have refused you entry & left you stuck in no-mans land again!

 

 

Edited August 19, 2016 by JB300
Sp

[Ronuk]

2 hours ago, JB300 said:

As an aside, why did they send you back to Singapore & not insist on you returning back to the US? 

 

Would have thought that unless you have "Right" (PR etc...) to enter Singapore, ICA could easily have refused you entry & left you stuck in no-mans land again!

I believe they fly you back to your previous destination.

[dbrenn]

As others have said, section 12(2) of the Immigration Act is for insufficient funds. There is no section in the Immigration Act that allows them to refuse people entry for "too many in-outs", so it looks like they are trying to say people who do too many in-outs (with no visible means of income like a work permit) must therefore have insufficient funds. Not logical, but that's Thai bureaucracy for you.

 

Try getting an Elite Visa - hassle free and you can stay here as log as you want.

 

I hope that they didn't charge you for your night in their guest house.

[overherebc]

8 hours ago, Enzian said:

I'm curious about a lesser aspect of your story, if I may. It sounds like your girlfriend (not wife) comes and goes to the US with you. How is that possible without a lot of trouble getting US visas for her? Or have you simply succeeded in getting her qualified for such US ins-and-outs through the usual application process? It looks daunting to me.

 

It's not unusual to get a 10 year multi for the US. My wife has one. 

[midas]

11 hours ago, elviajero said:

• The denied entry probably won't affect you getting a visa, but it would be entirely up to the Embassy/Consulate where you apply. If you got a new passport they wouldn't know about the denied entry as they are not connected to the immigration system.
• You haven't been blacklisted and a previous denial isn't a reason to deny you in the future.
• Once you have the visa you should be allowed to enter as their real reason was due to too many visa exempt entries and not having an appropriate visa.
• Using section 12. 2 of the immigration act is a common reason used when they want to formally deny entry.

 

"  they wouldn't know about the denied entry as they are not connected to the immigration system. "

 

 I find it hard to believe and even if it is true now surely it's only a matter of time before they decide to consolidate as much information as possible electronically?

[Jk2005]

4 hours ago, Ronuk said:

I believe they fly you back to your previous destination.

 

This is is in fact the case, and I wouldn't have had to wait 20 hours if the there was a later flight to Singapore that day. Krabi is so small and air Asia only has one flight a day to this destination. I also asked about flying to KUL and they made it absolutely clear that Singapore was my only option.

 

1 hour ago, dbrenn said:

As others have said, section 12(2) of the Immigration Act is for insufficient funds. There is no section in the Immigration Act that allows them to refuse people entry for "too many in-outs", so it looks like they are trying to say people who do too many in-outs (with no visible means of income like a work permit) must therefore have insufficient funds. Not logical, but that's Thai bureaucracy for you.

 

Try getting an Elite Visa - hassle free and you can stay here as log as you want.

 

I hope that they didn't charge you for your night in their guest house.

 

I did have a read read through section 12 after I posted this, and 12(2) seems like the only reason they could give. All of the others were a bit extreme.

 

elite visa will be my next option if I run into more problems. If I had more solid plans of how long we were going to stay in Thailand it would be easier to decide, but we have been looking/planning on being elsewhere.

 

30 minutes ago, overherebc said:

 

It's not unusual to get a 10 year multi for the US. My wife has one. 

 

Yes, my girlfriend has a 10 year multi for the US. She can come reasonable amount of times for 6  months at a time.

 

 

5 minutes ago, midas said:

 

"  they wouldn't know about the denied entry as they are not connected to the immigration system. "

 

 I find it hard to believe and even if it is true now surely it's only a matter of time before they decide to consolidate as much information as possible electronically?

 

This is actually the not the first time I've heard that they are not connected,  but that being said,  even if they issue me a visa in a new passport, the immigration office at my PoE still has the ultimate decision.

[Ronuk]

I don't believe what people say about passports and stamps not being connected to the Immigration system. In these days of International Terrorism and heightened security, that there no electronic link and only a paper trail for cross border checking not to have it wouldn't be acceptable to other countries accepting passengers and planes in there air space.
There is a whole host of passport scanning, typing and facial photographing these days arriving and departing Thailand. KL for instance, fingerprint both index fingers, even small children in pushchairs, Facial photographing both on arrival and departure.
People like to imagine these countries are behind the rest of the world. Personally, I think they couldn't be more wrong.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Ronuk

[Jk2005]

5 minutes ago, Ronuk said:

I don't believe what people say about passports and stamps not being connected to the Immigration system. In these days of International Terrorism and heightened security, that there no electronic link and only a paper trail for cross border checking not to have it wouldn't be acceptable to other countries accepting passengers and planes in there air space.
There is a whole host of passport scanning, typing and facial photographing these days arriving and departing Thailand. KL for instance, fingerprint both index fingers, even small children in pushchairs, Facial photographing both on arrival and departure.
People like to imagine these countries are behind the rest of the world. Personally, I think they couldn't be more wrong.

 

Passports and immigration are definitely connected. If you get a new passport, immigration can definitely look at all of your past activity.

 

What people are saying is the fact that the people in the embassy/consulate where you are applying for a visa don't have direct access to the immigration system.

[Ronuk]

12 minutes ago, Jk2005 said:

 

Passports and immigration are definitely connected. If you get a new passport, immigration can definitely look at all of your past activity.

 

What people are saying is the fact that the people in the embassy/consulate where you are applying for a visa don't have direct access to the immigration system.

Apologies. I miss read the post regarding Embassy's and Consulates.

[Evilbaz]

37 minutes ago, Ronuk said:

Apologies. I miss read the post regarding Embassy's and Consulates.

 

They are under two different Ministries.

[Liquorice]

1 hour ago, midas said:

 

"  they wouldn't know about the denied entry as they are not connected to the immigration system. "

 

 I find it hard to believe and even if it is true now surely it's only a matter of time before they decide to consolidate as much information as possible electronically?

 

It is a Thai internal Immigration system, that will never be allowed to be accessed by Embassies/Consulates of foreign Countries.

 

The Thais have their old internal Immigration system, then the new one design and operated since 2013.

They can't even electronically interface their own two systems together, which is why expats who entered before 2013 cannot do online 90 day reports. They have to leave Thailand and re-entry to be registered on the newer database.

 

Maybe in another 30 years they'll catch up with the technology of 2016.

[manarak]

I wonder if a call to lawyer experienced in immigration issues could have solved that situation ?

 

Or does immigration have a hotline in English?

[Ronuk]

6 minutes ago, manarak said:

I wonder if a call to lawyer experienced in immigration issues could have solved that situation ?

 

Or does immigration have a hotline in English?

Good luck with the English hotline 
As for wanting to involve a Lawyer to look at your case, unless you have lots of money to throw at it and don't mind being in a Detention center for who knows how many days while an appeal is launched, then the best case scenario would be to accept it and enjoy the ride back to Singapore. Too many visa exempt entries close together are always going to be a problem now. The system is gradually being tightened to make people get the correct visas for multiple and longer stays.
Where and when it ends up who knows?

[Suradit69]

2 hours ago, Ronuk said:

I don't believe what people say about passports and stamps not being connected to the Immigration system. In these days of International Terrorism and heightened security, that there no electronic link and only a paper trail for cross border checking not to have it wouldn't be acceptable to other countries accepting passengers and planes in there air space.
There is a whole host of passport scanning, typing and facial photographing these days arriving and departing Thailand. KL for instance, fingerprint both index fingers, even small children in pushchairs, Facial photographing both on arrival and departure.
People like to imagine these countries are behind the rest of the world. Personally, I think they couldn't be more wrong.

" I don't believe what people say about passports and stamps not being connected to the Immigration system. "

 

The information would be available to immigrations.

Embassies operate under a different ministry. The same information available to immigrations officers would not be available to embassies.

[Suradit69]

1 hour ago, Faz said:

 

It is a Thai internal Immigration system, that will never be allowed to be accessed by Embassies/Consulates of foreign Countries.

 

The Thais have their old internal Immigration system, then the new one design and operated since 2013.

They can't even electronically interface their own two systems together, which is why expats who entered before 2013 cannot do online 90 day reports. They have to leave Thailand and re-entry to be registered on the newer database.

 

Maybe in another 30 years they'll catch up with the technology of 2016.

"Maybe in another 30 years they'll catch up with the technology of 2016."

 

That would still be 30 years sooner than in the UK.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/406892/Britain-s-border-shambles-will-never-be-fixed-says-UK-s-new-head-of-immigration

 

Quote

 

Britain’s border shambles will never be fixed says UK's new head of immigration

The UK’s shambolic immigration system may never be sorted out, MPs were told yesterday by the woman given the job of fixing it.

 

 

[Suradit69]

Quote

Next the Airline staff (Air Asia) came to me and asked me if i had a ticket booked to Singapore for the next day I responded no i didn't know i was going to be rejected, and known has told me the process of what happens after i am denied. She was quite rude so i called my girlfriend to have her explain that they haven't told me anything yet.

 

They will probably tighten up who is allowed to board aircraft in future. Many airlines refuse to board someone traveling to Thailand without a proper visa unless they have already booked a flight out.

[manarak]

1 hour ago, Ronuk said:

Good luck with the English hotline 
As for wanting to involve a Lawyer to look at your case, unless you have lots of money to throw at it and don't mind being in a Detention center for who knows how many days while an appeal is launched, then the best case scenario would be to accept it and enjoy the ride back to Singapore. Too many visa exempt entries close together are always going to be a problem now. The system is gradually being tightened to make people get the correct visas for multiple and longer stays.
Where and when it ends up who knows?

 

no... the call to the lawyer would not be made with the goal of making a legal case, but having a professional lawyer talk to the officers, possibly reminding them about the exact regulations and directives how to handle travelers, possibly refering the officers to a more competent senior officer.

This might resolve the issue on the spot, I have seen this happen before.

[Ronuk]

4 minutes ago, manarak said:

 

no... the call to the lawyer would not be made with the goal of making a legal case, but having a professional lawyer talk to the officers, possibly reminding them about the exact regulations and directives how to handle travelers, possibly refering the officers to a more competent senior officer.

This might resolve the issue on the spot, I have seen this happen before.

Possibly but by far the best way to avoid the problem in the first place is to have a visa and not continual visa exempts with no onward flight or a flight which is outside of the 30 day exemption. I did post the other week about what I see 2 and 3 times a week flying in and out of Bangkok. They are continually referring people to the immigration office for interview and questioning for the same old thing. They obviously appear to be stopping it.

[gregk0543]

If we examine the  pattern of your entries, extensions and exits over the two year period  with what you are saying 2

to 3 visits to USA of 6 weeks per year. you are spending about 9 months of each  year in Thailand doing almost back to backs.

 It is close enough for them to be suspicious that you are indeed working in Thailand or not a legitimate tourist so using the allowances instead of getting another visa.

 

But they werent being nice about it. They could have say given you 15 days entry and told you to get a proper visa.

 

So did they ask you how you supported yourself doing this?

What your occupation was etc?

 

Anyway you have crossed the undefined line in that officers eyes and you know yourself you must have been close to it.

You should be fine if you apply for an appropriate visa and plan longer breaks between visits to Thailand. Stay away a month between visits for example.

[gregk0543]

Oh yes and as an after thought thanks for the helpful information which helps us to build a pattern on what they think is the correct use of visas.

 

[JackThompson]

13 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

It was wrong of the immigration officer not to ask you to show money, minimum 20k Baht or the equivalent in other currencies. The section numbers from the Immigration Act in the TM.35 he made you acknowledge refer to the reasons for the denied entry but the officer should have told you what these reasons are and what particular reason or reasons he used for his denial, not just give a list of all the possible reasons that the law allows.

 

The stamp in the passport has the handwritten annotation that Section 12(2) is the reason but it also has the pre-printed "or Section 54, Section 81 or Section 82", without deletion of the Sections 54, 81 and 82 which were not applicable in this case.

...

 

Yes it was wrong.  He did have the funds to show - but it also appears to be the usual false-reason penciled-in for denying a lawful entry at airports - a pattern we have seen reported again and again. 

 

I assume on the last VE-entry, a "last time" warning was not issued?  Absent that, this was completely inexcusable behavior - treating someone who broke no law as a criminal.  They had his passport - was he going to "run away" and try to escape the airport and risk an actual criminal offense?  Of course not.

 

This is yet one more example demonstrating why I will only enter Thailand via land-borders under the current, unknown / undefined, Immigration-checkpoint rules.  The OP was lucky to be allowed to book his last-minute ticket to Singapore - not to the USA (his Passport-country), as has happened to others in similar situations.  As to the next trip, be aware that one's return-journey option might only be to the USA if that was the point of origin.  I would go to KL or similar, go through immigration there, and only then move on to Thailand.

[Liquorice]

3 hours ago, manarak said:

I wonder if a call to lawyer experienced in immigration issues could have solved that situation ?

 

Or does immigration have a hotline in English?

 

Yes Immigration does have a 24 hour English speaking hotline. 1111

[Maestro]

7 hours ago, dbrenn said:

As others have said, section 12(2) of the Immigration Act is for insufficient funds. There is no section in the Immigration Act that allows them to refuse people entry for "too many in-outs", so it looks like they are trying to say people who do too many in-outs (with no visible means of income like a work permit) must therefore have insufficient funds. Not logical, but that's Thai bureaucracy for you.

 

Immigration's logic is that a foreigner who spends "too much" time in Thailand as a tourist must be working illegally in Thailand and therefore Section 12(3) applies, but the immigration officer did not indicate 12(3) in the stamp.

 

Quote

 

Section 12 : Aliens which fall into any of the following categories are excluded from entering into the
Kingdom:

...

3. Having entered into the Kingdom to take occupation as a laborer or to take employment by
using physical without skills training or to work in violation of the Ministerial Regulations.

...

 

 

 

P.S. Just saw tat the link to the Immigration Act is not working at the moment and I am attaching it here.

 

Immigration Act 2522 en - immigration.pdf