ATM connection to European bank

[soalbundy]

Several times this month i have had problems withdrawing money from my German account using ATM

The screen says communication error. Last week the Bangkok bank machine couldn't give me money but

another bank could, today none of the banks ATM can give me money,it's always the same message, communication

error. Have the banks an Internet problem ?

[Pib]

It's probably just a communication or ATM problem versus your card.

 

Some ATMs in one nearby mall I visit periodically give me errors like you are experiencing to my U.S. banks; but ATMs in another nearby mall have yet to give me any such errors.  I figure it's just the communications links to the ATMs in that mall...and/or maybe a software/compatibility problem with some of the ATMs....I was using Krungsri and TMB ATMs.

 

When I called my U.S. bank about the problem they also said it was probably a communication problem as they had not seen the attempted withdrawals that I got errors on.  In fact, I attempted one withdrawal while I had the bank rep on the phone, told him the error I got as it occurred, he said he didn't see any withdrawal attempt on his end.  He recommended I try another ATM if possible...I did which was another bank's ATM (KrungThai) in the same mall and within a few meters of the other ATMs and the withdrawal went fine.   But since then I have just avoided the ATMs in that mall and been using the Krungsri ATMs in another mall.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Pib

[jobsworth]

most thai atm's use visa to connect to a foreign bank.

sometimes the visa system is not working.

so you will be unable to use any atm.

also do not keep your atm cards next to your mobile telephone

like do not put your wallet in the same pocket as the phone.

the signals from the phone reduce the strength of the magnetic strip.

some atm's are more sensitive than others.

this could explain why your card works in some atm's but not others.

replace your atm card as soon as possible.

 

[soalbundy]

Thanks for the good advice. I never use my mobile or carry it with me,i have heard of these problems before. My card is OK, i use it for months on end without problems and the suddenly this sort of thing happens. Once an ATM (BANGKOK BANK) gave me a 'communication error' but the ATM machine next to it gave me money (also a bangkok bank ATM ) Last week the bankok bank ATM'S wouldn't give me cash but other banks ATM'S would,yesterday no ATM would give me money so i was wondering if this is a rain problem or an unstable internet problem that the bangkok bank has, maybe because it was the end of the month was the problem.

[Pib]

Just communications glitches...I think we all know from our internet use that communications with the other side of the world can sometimes be slow/not clear.

[KhunBENQ]

During my first two years in Thailand I used ATMs with foreign cards frequently.

It happened once to me.

The frightening part: it took awfully long until the error occurred and the card was spit out.

I hate card eaters!

[DiDiChok]

I'm sorry to tell you that this "Communication error" isn't what it purports to be and has nothing to do with telecommunications.  Messages don't get corrupted over long distances - look at how CD's and DVD's work to understand what it is possible to do using error correction.  This actually a message telling you that your transaction has been declined.  The hope is that you will think it is a temporary glitch then go to another ATM and then another ATM, and at least one of them will either get a good photo of you or so that you can be identified on CCTV.  Be warned that there are other similarly worded confusing messages that can be displayed on ATMs.

 

I've had this problem several times when using UK VISA debit cards in Thai ATMs and the first time it happened I visited over twenty different ATM's from different Banks before I started making phone calls.  Although I tell my Bank that I shall be in Thailand in the hope that transactions will go through, it is actually VISA who authorises or decline a transaction and they can do so without reference to your Bank if alerted by their heuristic 'unusual transaction' software.  So telling your Bank where you're going makes not a jot of difference to your hopes and efforts trying to ensure that transactions will go through smoothly and I don't do that any more.

 

When I finally got through to VISA from a number given to me by my Bank, they lifted the block in fifteen minutes and I was able to get money again.  VISA also confirmed that they could see all my withdrawal attempts on their computer.  It's worth noting that not all Thai Banks ATM's are connected to the international Bank networks, but the bigger ones like Kasikorn, Bangkok Bank, Siam Commercial and so on certainly are.  The miscreants can usually be identified by the absence of a VISA symbol on the ATM.

 

I have never been able to find out why it is that Credit cards are preferred rather than debit cards when trying to get money.  I can only think there must be more commission for the Bank when a credit card is used.  In the end I got a Thai Bank account and now transfer wedges of cash into it and use the Thai ATM card, and that always works.  The new six digit PINs on Thai ATM cards are an irritant but I suppose that's progress for you.

[Pib]

I would have to disagree with above simply because when I was having my problem with my U.S. Schwab card, I could not get it to work in Krungsri and TMB ATMs in this one mall.  This had been a intermittent problem for about two months..."most" of the time the card would not work but "sometimes" it would.  The two ATMs were within 10 meters of each other in the front of their respective bank branches.  I was using these ATMs since they provide Bt30K per withdrawal vs the Bt20K to Bt25K max per withdrawal by other Thai banks.

 

I called Schwab while standing in front of the ATMs and explained the errors...the Schwab rep look at his system and said no withdrawal attempts were seen.   He said their were no blocks on my cards.    The rep asked me to try again while he watched the system real time....I got the same error again right at the very end of the process...telling me to contact my card issuing bank (i.e. Schwab).  The Scwhab rep saw nothing on this system.  

 

He asked can I try another ATM...preferably one from another bank.   I tried a KrungThai ATM that was within meters of the Krungsri and TMB ATMs...and the transaction was successful...money spit out...and the rep said he could see the transaction occurring real time.

 

A few weeks later I tried the Krungsri ATM again in this mall...same result...error right at the end of the transaction saying to contact my card issuing bank.  I went over to a Bangkok Bank ATM a few meters away and successfully got money.   A few weeks later I tried a Krungsri ATM in another mall...successfully....and then a few weeks later I tried another withdrawal in that Krungsri ATM in the other mall...successful again.  About a month ago I then tried a withdrawal from the Krungsri ATM in the mall where I was having problems and once again I would get the error.  Went to the other mall...used that Krungsri ATM successfully.  

 

Just something to do with the Krungsri/TMB communication links at that one mall....but KrungThai and Bangkok Bank communication links are fine....and using the Krungsri ATM at that other mall has always worked.

 

Based on my personal experience as described above combined with what the Schwab rep was seeing real time and telling me the probable problem (unsuccessful communications during the transaction) since he said he routinely gets such calls from customers in other countries.    However, he did say, Yes, sometimes a person's card is blocked but usually it just bad communications.   My card being blocked happened to me once about 2  years ago and my card wouldn't not work in at least 4 ATMs I tried....I called Schwab...they told me yes it was blocked....and they just wanted to confirm it was me.  After that confirmation the card was unbloc ked and has worked fine since "barring communication glitches" with some ATMs at this one mall.

 

Summary: sure your card can be blocked by your card-issuing bank...if it is, it will not work in "any" ATM no matter how many you try and in what locations.  But if it is not blocked and you are having intermittent problems with some ATMs then it just communications glitches, ATM compatibility with your card, and/or a defective card.   And as already mentioned, some banks/credit unions block certain countries and/or will not approve a foreign transaction unless you have notified them in advance of your travels...all depends on the policies of your card-issuing bank.

 

 

Edited September 1, 2016 by Pib

[Pib]

56 minutes ago, DiDiChok said:

 

I have never been able to find out why it is that Credit cards are preferred rather than debit cards when trying to get money.  I can only think there must be more commission for the Bank when a credit card is used.  In the end I got a Thai Bank account and now transfer wedges of cash into it and use the Thai ATM card, and that always works.  The new six digit PINs on Thai ATM cards are an irritant but I suppose that's progress for you.

 

It's not that they are preferred, it's just Thai banks know most credit cards carry a 3% Cash Advance Fee (that goes to your card-issuing bank), begins accumulating interest from day one of the cash advance (that interest goes to your card-issuing bank), and earns the Thai bank their ATM Use Fee of Bt200 (just like for a debit card) which means most people simply will not want to use their credit card in an ATM due to all these fees....these are the fees most people are aware of, but their are also interchange fees occurring between the banks that many people are not aware/don't include in their decision whether to use their card or not.

 

But the Thai banks would still prefer you get some money from the transaction and will then accept a credit card for a counter withdrawal (a.k.a., cash advance) while not accepting a debit card.   For the debit card they know people are very accustomed to using their debit card in an ATM and the people know they will at least escape interest being card although their debit card may carry a foreign transaction fee and will still be charged the Bt200 Thai bank ATM Use Fee....but at least they don't get hit with high interest charges also.  

 

Below chart from Visa shows the interchange fee earned by a Thai bank when allowing ATM withdrawal or Counter/Cash Advance/Manual Withdrawal.   Ex: on an ATM transaction for Bt30,000 the Thai bank would earn a Bt62 interchange fee plus their Bt200 ATM Use Fee for a total of Bt262.....and on a counter/cash advance the would earn a Bt151 interchange fee but no ATM use fee since Thai bank don't charge the Bt200 for counter withdrawals.  Anytime they can steer you to their ATM with your credit or debit card they make a larger total fee than if they allow a counter/cash advance.  But as mentioned, "most" branches will do counter/cash advances for a credit card when people ask because the bank probably figures some fee is better than no fee....but for a debit card "many" branches will not accept a debit card for a counter/cash advance as they are taking the calculated risk you will still go use the debit card in their ATM where due to  the higher cost of using your credit card in an ATM might you might not use the credit card.

 

Issuer means your card-issuing bank; acquirer mean the bank that giving  you the money from the ATM/counter.

 

[DiDiChok]

Thank you so much "Pib" for the useful information clearing up some of my points about credit and debit transactions.  I still think that there are levels of rejection involved and that suitably arcane or obscure messages are sent at each level of rejection that do not identify the rejecter.  Like your Schwab experience, my Bank said they couldn't see any transactions or attempted transactions when I was trying to withdraw while on the phone to them.  VISA however, said that they could see all the attempts and applied some kind of "unblock" so that their system did not reject the transactions.

 

I've also experienced being able to get money on the first occasion but not on subsequent attempts until I telephoned my Bank.  There, it seems that the Bank was stopping the subsequent withdrawal attempts.  The fundamental points I was trying to address are threefold:  That all transmission protocols have retransmission  built-in by default, that obscure messages are output in the name of security and that if your Bank says that all is fine from their viewpoint that you should ask to speak to VISA or whoever else is providing other levels of control.  Somebody's put a block on, but whom?

 

There must also be still further levels unknown to us that may cause a rejection, such as the ATM's Bank refusing all cards from a particular oversea Bank because of a dispute that is nothing to do with the individual using the card.  There will also be Government blocks that can be applied, like the UK did to Icelandic Banks and cards when they had their financial crisis and that nation got declared to be all terrorists!

 

Individual ATM locations may also be partially blocked should they be declared a "hotspot" of fraud activity of a particular type such as foreign transactions.  Maybe you should either be extremely careful in that mall where you've been attempting to use your card or simply not go there any more?  After all, you can't expect an ATM to tell you the real reason for a rejection.  You're just left with the frustrating fact that no money is a rejection.

[Pib]

Yeap, never a shortage of "...further levels of unknown to us that may cause a rejection..."  

[soalbundy]

Yesterday i tried again, same problem so i went to the Kasikorn bank nearby, their ATM had a different message, We cannot process your card at this time, so i went into the bank and asked what was going on. The woman clerk was most helpful and tried for 30 minuets to  reach kasikorn call center without success, great!! so i took the clerk outside and demonstrated the process for her, lo and behold the ATM gave me money but at a far worse rate of exchange than the bangkok bank but i was so glad to have some cash again i didn't care, will try bangkok bank again today.

[Pib]

When you use an ATM they all give you the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate "unless" the ATM offers "and you accept" a Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) transaction which will probably not be called that but something like Bank Rate or some other warm & fuzzy/vague name.  But basically it's a screen that offering you a certain exchange rate option.   DO NOT accept a DCC transaction...read the screen closely to continue on to get the card network (i.e., Visa/Mastercard) exchange rate...don't accept the rate being offered on the screen.   

 

A DCC rate is nothing more than the local bank's DCC rate will be 3 to 4% lower than the card network rate.  

 

Go to below earlier post which includes an example image of what a DCC ATM screen looks like.  You can also search "DCC" in the ThaiVisa search box to pull  up many, many, many posts on DCC.

 

Edited September 2, 2016 by Pib

[soalbundy]

2 hours ago, Pib said:

When you use an ATM they all give you the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate "unless" the ATM offers "and you accept" a Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) transaction which will probably not be called that but something like Bank Rate or some other warm & fuzzy/vague name.  But basically it's a screen that offering you a certain exchange rate option.   DO NOT accept a DCC transaction...read the screen closely to continue on to get the card network (i.e., Visa/Mastercard) exchange rate...don't accept the rate being offered on the screen.   

 

A DCC rate is nothing more than the local bank's DCC rate will be 3 to 4% lower than the card network rate.  

 

Go to below earlier post which includes an example image of what a DCC ATM screen looks like.  You can also search "DCC" in the ThaiVisa search box to pull  up many, many, many posts on DCC.

 

I had the feeling (but don't know) that if you didn't press the accept button it wouldn't continue to work,ie give you money. I am back now from trying out the bangkok bank again,same problem.This time being somewhat annoyed i went into the bank and insisted that they do something instead of telling me ''mai ru''. I raised my voice slightly but stayed factual and polite telling them that this wasn't a free service as i had to pay 200 Baht to get money each time so now i want an explanation and the problem solved. It helped that i speak Thai. They got off of their butts this time and rang up five different numbers,took about an hour, before they ended up with their technical department who were unaware of the problem. I was made to repeat the procedure on 4 different occasions in the company of  one of their officials who was constantly on the phone with the technician. End of the story is they haven't solved the problem but are now aware of it and are working on it, i should try again on Monday.

[Pib]

Based on your first sentence above it sure sounds like you accepted a DCC transaction.   Without seeing the exact wording you were seeing it was probably asking if you wanted to accept "their conversion rate" (i.e., their being the owner of the ATM lower at their lower DCC rate), and when you accepted/continued you got their lower rate.   You should have selected continue without conversion which means that local ATM owner would not do the conversion and the Visa/Mastercard exchange/conversion rate would be used.   The wording is intentionally vague/tricky to hopefully get you to accept the ATM owner DCC rate...you might think if you don't accept the transaction will fail or you think you are not accepting the rate but you really are.   The wording can be tricky.

 

Also, keep in mind that "if" your card-issuing bank applies a foreign transaction fee (say 3% which is common) then that fee effectively reduces your exchange rate....blame you card-issuing bank for that fee and not the local ATM owner.

 

But your core problem in your card just not working most of the time is a separate issue assuming your card has not been blocked and I don't think it has since you are getting it to work "sometimes."    Maybe give a KrungThai Bank and AEON ATMs a try.

 

Also, why don't you try a counter/cash advance withdrawal within the branch if the branch will do it for you card.  It varies from branch to branch if they will do it for a debit card but the great majority will for a credit card.  In that transaction they will use a POS machine just like used at store checkout...and you will not be charged the Bt200 ATM Use Fee....and you shouldn't be offered a DCC transaction.  You can tell a DCC transaction on a receipt for signature by if it displays "both" baht/local currency and the home currency of your card (EUR) in  your German card case.  Decline that transaction and tell them to cancel that transaction and rerun the transaction in baht; not Euro.

 

Edited September 2, 2016 by Pib

[soalbundy]

Thanks for the advice, i didn't know any of this. There is a problem at Bangkok bank as many foreigner's had the same problem and complained to the staff but they couldn't be bothered to look into it until i turned up and insisted and now their technician is working on it. One of the senior staff who shall remain nameless told me he regards the complete Thai mentality as crap which i found unusually frank for a Thai.

[Pib]

Just go try another ATM from any Thai bank as you just want to get money with your German card....I wouldn't care what bank's ATM spit the  money out.   Just beware of the DCC offer regardless of what ATM you use.

 

And just in case as additional info, I don't know how much you are trying to withdraw each time (and of course your card-issuing bank sets a limit also), but the max you can withdraw from a Bangkok Bank ATM in one pull is Bt25K with the Bt200 fee.  You can pull up to Bt30K at Krungsri and TMB ATMs assuming they are not low on cash and using a select ATM that has been set lower do to high usage.   You will find the max pull varies among Thai bank/AEON ATMs at either Bt30K,  Bt25K, or Bt20K with that Bt200 fee (Bt150 at AEON ATMs) and that info will be clearly displayed on their screens....or at least every ATM I've used has clearly displayed it.   There are a few exceptions to above general rules such as Bank of China does not charge a fee but they only have a few locations in Thailand....and a few foreign cards used in Citibank ATM will escape a fee....and American Express cards if accepted by the ATM will most likely be only a Bt50 fee....but these are the exceptions just to mention a few.

 

[soalbundy]

On 9/2/2016 at 7:34 PM, Pib said:

Just go try another ATM from any Thai bank as you just want to get money with your German card....I wouldn't care what bank's ATM spit the  money out.   Just beware of the DCC offer regardless of what ATM you use.

 

And just in case as additional info, I don't know how much you are trying to withdraw each time (and of course your card-issuing bank sets a limit also), but the max you can withdraw from a Bangkok Bank ATM in one pull is Bt25K with the Bt200 fee.  You can pull up to Bt30K at Krungsri and TMB ATMs assuming they are not low on cash and using a select ATM that has been set lower do to high usage.   You will find the max pull varies among Thai bank/AEON ATMs at either Bt30K,  Bt25K, or Bt20K with that Bt200 fee (Bt150 at AEON ATMs) and that info will be clearly displayed on their screens....or at least every ATM I've used has clearly displayed it.   There are a few exceptions to above general rules such as Bank of China does not charge a fee but they only have a few locations in Thailand....and a few foreign cards used in Citibank ATM will escape a fee....and American Express cards if accepted by the ATM will most likely be only a Bt50 fee....but these are the exceptions just to mention a few.

 

Thanks for that, i did as you said, it worked.