Farangs In Thailand

[Siripon]

It is easy to say you can buy land in the US. But practically, who in the world can be rich enough to buy the whole USA? But for weaker countries, you think the rich countries will have pity on them?

No mercy, I think.

If you read my post, you can see that i have not brought this argument. On the opposite - i have said that in order to protect the weaker Thai economy, regulations can be introduced for foreigners to be able to obly buy residential land up to a certain size, or industrial land for long term investors.

And i can only repeat myself - land in Thailand is not cheap anymore since the changes in the 80s. On the opposite - agricultural land is far too expensive already due to a monopolisation of a few rich Thai investors.

The land right issue in Thailand is very complex, there are huge problems of injust land distribution, of mostly city based power elites having snatched up most available land, using this land to get loans, artificially rising prices, while farmers have only the crumbs left, having neither the ducation nor the power to oppose these elites.

These power elites hold an iron grip over available land in Thailand, more than any foreigner could ever do. Opening the market would lead to pressure that these land holding elites would not only have to implement a long overdue landreform, but also would be forced to to their dealings according to the law and not the usual crony corrupt way.

So, yes, the ones who argue here against the opening of the market are really the ones who have stolen almost all the available land from the majority of the Thai population.

The nonsense talked by the colonel knows no ends. My home town is Ban Pai in Khonkaen province, most of the land outside the town is still owned by local farmers who have passed it down through the generations. Most don't have land title deeds but they have documents guaranteeing ownership that can only be passed on to their children.

If foreigners could buy land, and there are quite a few married to Issan women, it could only increase the price, which could put it out of the range of the locals.

I read in the paper the other day that young English couples can no longer afford to buy their own house due to the property boom; is it true in England anyone can buy a house and or land?

I believe our former leader has property there. Perhaps the English working class should protest to Tony Blair about this.

[papertiger]

Nice to be reminded that the US is so fair and generous!

I love Thailand, but that doesn't mean that I have to accept some of the cultural shortcomings... Of course culture is illegal in America isn't it? Excuse me, I'm an ignorant and racist Englishman. I just don't like white people very much and prefer to be ripped off honestly by mafia police and pay extra sometimes than to be forced to eat gum and hypocrisy.

[ourmanflint]

I read in the paper the other day that young English couples can no longer afford to buy their own house due to the property boom; is it true in England anyone can buy a house and or land?

I believe our former leader has property there. Perhaps the English working class should protest to Tony Blair about this.

You are right, we in the UK will let just about anybody buy a piece of good ol' blighty, for better or worse we are much more open than many countries are.

[Siripon]

I read in the paper the other day that young English couples can no longer afford to buy their own house due to the property boom; is it true in England anyone can buy a house and or land?

I believe our former leader has property there. Perhaps the English working class should protest to Tony Blair about this.

You are right, we in the UK will let just about anybody buy a piece of good ol' blighty, for better or worse we are much more open than many countries are.

Your country is very small, only half the size of Thailand or France, what do the young people who can't afford to buy a house do?

[ColPyat]

The nonsense talked by the colonel knows no ends. My home town is Ban Pai in Khonkaen province, most of the land outside the town is still owned by local farmers who have passed it down through the generations. Most don't have land title deeds but they have documents guaranteeing ownership that can only be passed on to their children.

If foreigners could buy land, and there are quite a few married to Issan women, it could only increase the price, which could put it out of the range of the locals.

I read in the paper the other day that young English couples can no longer afford to buy their own house due to the property boom; is it true in England anyone can buy a house and or land?

I believe our former leader has property there. Perhaps the English working class should protest to Tony Blair about this.

And the continued display of lack of manners and ignorance of the most primitive economical principles by dear Siripon suggests that he/she in fact originates from the jungle and not a village in Isaarn.

That sort of landpapers are Sor Por Kor 401, i guess. Just wait and see what is going to happen with your Ban Pai/Khonkaen and all the nice land holding farmers as soon as the land is upgraded to Nor Sor 3 or even a full Chanoot.

Foreigners married to Isaarn women already buy houses in Isaarn in the name of their wifes and contribute significantly to the local economy that way. If you have ever been at a political meeting in Isaarn recently, you can see that many politicians do actively encourage this sort of investment, even to degrees that i could not support anymore. Perversions such as Ban Jan/Roi Et only happen because of decades of government mismanagement.

Real estate bubbles such as the one you mentioned in the UK hardly stem from foreigners buying a house to live in. There are a multitude of issues responsible and possible, some of them, such as the attention of hedge funds, countries can protect themselves against.

Nobody in his right mind advocates a radical opening of the real estate market to foreign investment, but a continued almost complete closure is as idiotic.

[Maigo6]

I love Thailand, but that doesn't mean that I have to accept some of the cultural shortcomings...

Glad you like Thailand.

It can't be that bad, or Farangs would not want to stay, I assume nobody is being held in Thailand against their will.

[ColPyat]

Your country is very small, only half the size of Thailand or France, what do the young people who can't afford to buy a house do?

The buy it with a mortage, for christ's sake. And they rent. The same the many people in Thailand do who cannot afford a house.

And the live in council estates.

Edited November 24, 2006 by ColPyat

[Maigo6]

Nobody in his right mind advocates a radical opening of the real estate market to foreign investment, but a continued almost complete closure is as idiotic.

The Thais have got it right, they are doing just fine in the Land ownership laws.

Farangs still buy houses, they just don't own them.

Rather clever government if you ask me.

[mrbojangles]

Nobody in his right mind advocates a radical opening of the real estate market to foreign investment, but a continued almost complete closure is as idiotic.

Good post, ColPyat and an excellent summary

[London Crocodile]

meemiathai it's become very obvious that you have a problem with white people. Maybe you should take a look at yourself first and look to see if the problem is a bit closer to home.

Not all of us are bad.

[ColPyat]

The Thais have got it right, they are doing just fine in the Land ownership laws.

Farangs still buy houses, they just don't own them.

Rather clever government if you ask me.

Thailand does not "just fine" in the land ownership laws.

If Thailand would do that well, you hardly would have continous demonstrations since decades regarding land right issue problems, you would not have elites snatching up land reserved for the poor, encroatchments on natural reserves, etc.

What you have here is a closed market with lack of transparency, no functioning control mechanism in which a tiny power elite has managed to snatch up most of the available land through crony capitalism.

By supporting the continued closure of the market you don't do any favour to the average Thai, only the ones who have been able to dominate the market to the disadvantage of the average Thai.

[chechoie]

An old Cherokee was teaching his grandson about life.

'A fight is going on inside me', he said to the boy. 'It is a terrible fight, and it is between two wolves. One is evil - he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego. The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith'.

'The same fight is going on inside you, and inside every other person, too.'

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, ' Which wolf will win?'.

The old Cherokee simply replied, 'The one you feed

Thanks mate,

To some people these stories are meaningless in this day and age and are open to ridicule,

but to others, they help us see things a bit clearer.

Regards,

Edited November 24, 2006 by chechoie

[Colonel_Mustard]

I love Thailand, but that doesn't mean that I have to accept some of the cultural shortcomings...

I assume nobody is being held in Thailand against their will.

Check out the prisons. I think you may find a few

[Robski]

Magio, you like the stir the pot......I like that Your ok kid.

Jeff, it's like a throw back to a few years ago, I just thought that for the 4th Birthday and the Millionth post celbrations upon us, it would be nice to stir em up a bit........

It worked nicely too.

They are so defensive.....

Nobody in his right mind advocates a radical opening of the real estate market to foreign investment, but a continued almost complete closure is as idiotic.

The Thais have got it right, they are doing just fine in the Land ownership laws.

Farangs still buy houses, they just don't own them.

Rather clever government if you ask me.

It's just sooooooooooooooooooooooooo easy...........................

[Cpt_M0ney_Sh0t]

I got no serious complaints. If anything I get treated much better here than I do back in the States, at least when I get followed around in the store here it's because they really wanna sell me something not because they are profiling me to steal

The only thing I would change about Thailand if I could, would be to change the buissness laws to match thouse of Dubai were forgien investment is promoted heavily and you can be set up with, residency visas, offices, bank account, credit, ect in 1-2 weeks.

[Maigo6]

It's just sooooooooooooooooooooooooo easy...........................

Hahaha............

That's another good thing about a Thailand forum, there are so many topics one can think of to wind people up.

Anyway guys, I'm off to the airport in a few hours, flying back from Tokyo to Bangkok........................................................ arrive at that monstrosity of an airport, battle my way through hoardes of touts, haggle over a taxi fare with a driver whos only purpose in life is to rip me off............arrive in Pattaya, go pick up my car which is at my friends Condo for security reasons cos Pattaya is getting so lawless I'm afraid to leave my car unprotected.............battle my way through yet another Pattaya traffic jam, Jams that are getting Bangkok style in jaminess.....then try to get some sleep if I can cos Thais make so much noise it's unbelievable....jump in my car and drive up north to the house I paid for and I will never own.....................................

There you see, I'm one of you really.

[jumnien]

say lads,

Baron de Rochefecauld (sorry about the spelling) the erudite French philospoher once said, you will never find happiness anywhere until you find it first in yourself.

When we came here 9 years ago to set up permanent residence things appeared a bit strange. Now we have learned to relax. Yes, corruption and bribery and deceit abound, along with traffic congestion, pollution, crime and all the other bad stuff, but there are some mighty fine folks living out here in Thailand as well, Thai and foreigners alike.

Dorothy in the 1938 movie the Wizard of Oz repeated and then took to heart what the good witch Glenda told her, "there's no place like home." and she was right on.

We like being here and plan to stay, barring any unusual adverse developments to take care of orphanned and abandoned and frightfully disadvantaged children here in Isaan. We came here to help kids, not line the pockets of corrupt officials. We ignore the one and concentrate on the other. In that way, we find some real peace and purpose. Trying doing something for someone else sometime other than complaining. Be part of the solution or a solution --not part and parcel of the problem.

It's like what one person was reported to have said, he didn't like to ten commandments because they were all a list of "thou shallt nots" and "do nots"--- he said if you just took the time to "do the do's" you wouldn't have time for the "don'ts."

Peace brothers.

Masterful prose and inspiring! Now I'm ready to start another beautiful day (where's my coffee!). How can we contact your fine enterprise? You sound like the kind of farang whose footsteps are safe to follow.

[Sing_Sling]

I got no serious complaints. If anything I get treated much better here than I do back in the States, at least when I get followed around in the store here it's because they really wanna sell me something not because they are profiling me to steal

Wow, profiling, eh? I hear that's the buzzword at the moment . . .

Possibly you should come to Singapore, go to Malaysia, Japan, Korea etc . . . and appreciate the fact that they want to make sure you don't rip them off.

I think we generally get treated better than in our own country, the Asian manner is simply more geared to that . . .

On the other hand if you think that bored salespeople crouching behind the cash register or stacks of clothing, doing their nails, makes-up, hair etc . . . is good service then good luck to you as you seem to not know what it really means.

As for the salespeople that follow you around and all they say is: acn try on . . . yes. Fantastic. Hey, this could be another thread . . .

[Robski]

say lads,

Baron de Rochefecauld (sorry about the spelling) the erudite French philospoher once said, you will never find happiness anywhere until you find it first in yourself.

Thanks for that, the philosopher/spiritualist Krishnamurti says the very same thing and once you can see the truth in the meaning you can find happiness.

I saw your introductory post and I admire your outlook and the great effort you are making with orphaned children.

Peace to you.

[Heng]

These power elites hold an iron grip over available land in Thailand, more than any foreigner could ever do. Opening the market would lead to pressure that these land holding elites would not only have to implement a long overdue landreform, but also would be forced to to their dealings according to the law and not the usual crony corrupt way.

So, yes, the ones who argue here against the opening of the market are really the ones who have stolen almost all the available land from the majority of the Thai population.

Agree... except that I'd substitute the term "stolen" with 'purchased.' Stolen sure does sound dramatic though.

[the swagman]

An old Cherokee was teaching his grandson about life.

'A fight is going on inside me', he said to the boy. 'It is a terrible fight, and it is between two wolves. One is evil - he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego. The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith'.

'The same fight is going on inside you, and inside every other person, too.'

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, ' Which wolf will win?'.

The old Cherokee simply replied, 'The one you feed

The American Indians and the Tibetans share many similarities. That is one of them.

I want to get in on this thread but I haven't read it all yet. be back later.

[Siripon]

The nonsense talked by the colonel knows no ends. My home town is Ban Pai in Khonkaen province, most of the land outside the town is still owned by local farmers who have passed it down through the generations. Most don't have land title deeds but they have documents guaranteeing ownership that can only be passed on to their children.

If foreigners could buy land, and there are quite a few married to Issan women, it could only increase the price, which could put it out of the range of the locals.

I read in the paper the other day that young English couples can no longer afford to buy their own house due to the property boom; is it true in England anyone can buy a house and or land?

I believe our former leader has property there. Perhaps the English working class should protest to Tony Blair about this.

And the continued display of lack of manners and ignorance of the most primitive economical principles by dear Siripon suggests that he/she in fact originates from the jungle and not a village in Isaarn.

That sort of landpapers are Sor Por Kor 401, i guess. Just wait and see what is going to happen with your Ban Pai/Khonkaen and all the nice land holding farmers as soon as the land is upgraded to Nor Sor 3 or even a full Chanoot.

Foreigners married to Isaarn women already buy houses in Isaarn in the name of their wifes and contribute significantly to the local economy that way. If you have ever been at a political meeting in Isaarn recently, you can see that many politicians do actively encourage this sort of investment, even to degrees that i could not support anymore. Perversions such as Ban Jan/Roi Et only happen because of decades of government mismanagement.

Real estate bubbles such as the one you mentioned in the UK hardly stem from foreigners buying a house to live in. There are a multitude of issues responsible and possible, some of them, such as the attention of hedge funds, countries can protect themselves against.

Nobody in his right mind advocates a radical opening of the real estate market to foreign investment, but a continued almost complete closure is as idiotic.

A lot of land in Ubon has been upgraded to chanote level for years and still remains in the hands of local farmers. When demand is limited price remains manageable, there's a lot of land in Issan and by keeping it in Thai hands the price, although going up, is bearable for the locals.

Bangkok, Phuket etc is another story.

Regarding England, compare it to France a country twice the size where house prices are half. More supply( land) so lower prices.

[ColPyat]

A lot of land in Ubon has been upgraded to chanote level for years and still remains in the hands of local farmers. When demand is limited price remains manageable, there's a lot of land in Issan and by keeping it in Thai hands the price, although going up, is bearable for the locals.

Bangkok, Phuket etc is another story.

Regarding England, compare it to France a country twice the size where house prices are half. More supply( land) so lower prices.

Bangkok is a huge city. And especially Phuket, Pattaya, etc. are somewhat different cases than upcountry. Prices there went beyond the roof even though foreigners are legally not allowed to own land there. In reality though foreigners can circumvent the laws and contribute so to the endemic corruption. Still though, it is mostly well connected Thai speculators who make the vast profits.

It would be better to accept reality and allow foreigners to own residential land up to a certain size. This would regulate a wild semi legal and illegal market. The problem is not foreigners buying small plots of land to live, this would only lead to a healthier market, and increased income to Thai real estate developers and agents.

The problem which leads to real estate bubbles are large scale speculation, especially by hedge funds. And against those there are ways to protect themselves. And yes, i do agree with you that the market has to be closed to them until Thailand's economy is strong enough, especially until the income distribution in Thailand is more equal.

I very much doubt that there will be that many foreigners buying that much land in rural Thailand that this pressure will significantly rise land prices long term. Small shortlived local bubbles might happen. But those more because exagerated expectations of locals. But as soon as they will realise that the huge influx they expect will not arrive - prices will go down automatically because they will just sit on overpriced land nobody buys.

Even now, with present regulations you have insane localised bubbles, such as in the village of Ban Jan/Roi Et, where almost every young women has a foreign husband, or works in Switzerland as a prostitute. But unless you forbid Thais to work outside Thailand, and to marry foreigners, this cannot be avoided. Nevertheless, this Ban Jan bubble is less because of an influx of foreigners, but because the ease with which especially Switzerland allows Thai women to work as prostitutes there, and a homegrown spiral of having to show off wealth to gain face.

Other villages only a few kilometers away have completely different prices than Ban Jan.

More important IMO is to keep, improve and enforce policies such as Sor Por Kor 401 land which is only allowed to be sold to relatives. And yes, i would very much prefer that the Thaksin policy of allowing Sor Por Kor 401 land titles given as collateral to the banks would be reverted, due to the lack of money management skills of the sectors of society that this land was originally reserved for. Different ways of access for funds for these sectors to society have to be found.

What though is very worrying is how pricing of agricultural land has developed over the last 20 odd years, since rich, mainly urban based elites started speculating with rural agricultural land (remember the financial crises, where it suddenly came out how many influental people have used vast amounts of land to borrow money from the banks, having through corruption changed the titles). Before land was abundant and cheap. Now, prices have been rising to a point that farmers, once they lost their land, are simply unable to buy land.

I know several Thais who are in this position, and who work in the factories around Bangkok for 20 odd years 16 hours a day just so they might re-purchase a small tiny farm.

The price rise of agricultural land in Thailand is bizzarre and insane. As an example - we have bought 6 years ago farmland with Sor Por Kor 401 papers. Now, we get regular offers of double what we paid for, even though the land papers have not changed, and no significant development happened in the area, and prices for agricultural goods have not risen. In theory we would not be allowed to sell the land, in reality though some money under the table at the land office would sort out the probelm in a second.

Problem is that a completely closed market under present parameters is not to the advantage to the average Thai, it only is to the advantage to a completely corrupt system that mainly benefits a small elite which can abuse and distort any law to their advantage.

This small elite is the main proponet of a continuation to keep the market closed, using simplistic nationalist arguments of foreigners buying off all of Thailand. Reality though is that the introduction of laws can prevent this from happening easily, but then these elites would have to change their way of dealing with the issue themselves, and that is what they want to avoid. Too much money is to be made under present situation.

In the Europan countries you have mentioned, especially England, you do have far too high prices in urban areas for land and houses. And at some time in the future it will regulate itself necessarily. It has nothing to do though with foreigners who buy a house to live in. In rural areas though you would be surprised how cheap and affordable land still is.

Difference in Europe though are much stiffer and enforced regulations on building houses, in all aspects. If you buy land to built your house, you would not believe the amount of partly unnecessary red tape you have to go through.

[ColPyat]

These power elites hold an iron grip over available land in Thailand, more than any foreigner could ever do. Opening the market would lead to pressure that these land holding elites would not only have to implement a long overdue landreform, but also would be forced to to their dealings according to the law and not the usual crony corrupt way.

So, yes, the ones who argue here against the opening of the market are really the ones who have stolen almost all the available land from the majority of the Thai population.

Agree... except that I'd substitute the term "stolen" with 'purchased.' Stolen sure does sound dramatic though.

Point taken.

Nevertheless, sometimes the prices they paid were a steal.

Especially considering the not so legal massive acquisition of Sor Por Kor 401 land by influental people for whom this title was not exactly designed for.

[Upcountry]

... I am only observing and opinionating ( is that a word ? ).....

Actually, I think the word is "opining", but maybe "emoting" would also apply!

Trolling?

But what's unusual about any of that on this forum?

[robitusson]

I love Thailand, but that doesn't mean that I have to accept some of the cultural shortcomings...

Amen to that.

[jumnien]

I love Thailand, but that doesn't mean that I have to accept some of the cultural shortcomings...

Amen to that.

I agree. You don't have to accept the cultural shortcomings...unless happiness happens to be a priority in your life. Acceptance is the key!

[Cigarette Burn]

meemiathai it's become very obvious that you have a problem with white people.

From reading his posts i would tend to agree.

[meemiathai]

meemiathai it's become very obvious that you have a problem with white people.

From reading his posts i would tend to agree.

Yes I really hate white people.

[lannarebirth]

These power elites hold an iron grip over available land in Thailand, more than any foreigner could ever do. Opening the market would lead to pressure that these land holding elites would not only have to implement a long overdue landreform, but also would be forced to to their dealings according to the law and not the usual crony corrupt way.

So, yes, the ones who argue here against the opening of the market are really the ones who have stolen almost all the available land from the majority of the Thai population.

Agree... except that I'd substitute the term "stolen" with 'purchased.' Stolen sure does sound dramatic though.

I accept your substitution and would add that sometimes they even pay top dollar