Sturgeon warns Scotland will decide its European future independently

[RuamRudy]

5 minutes ago, useronthenet said:

She's a clown, and an embarrassment to the Scottish. She clearly doesn't understand the democratic process. She had her referendum for independence and that was decided by the majority. As for being in the EU, that has also been decided by the majority of the UK, for which Scotland democratically voted to stay part of the Union. There is no more for discussion, as the decision has already been made. 

 

Nicola Sturgeon is now the most popular living Scot - official

 

You may think that she is embarrassing but most Scots see her differently. As for Brexit, that is definitely a reason to be embarrassed to be British. 

[CaptHaddock]

2 hours ago, Caps said:

let them go and they can pay a quarter of the National deficit on their way out, then we can get some money back for the free prescriptions and uni places.  

 

A quarter of the national debt?  How does your math work out to that since the Scots compose 8% of the population of Great Britain?

[i claudius]

Poor wee girl , go back to playing with your dolls , your just wasting your breath .

[evadgib]

In any divorce it's usual for both parties to have their say. Had this (England etc voting too) happened in 2014 the jocks would have been out at the first attempt. Holding a gun to our heads a second time isn't going anywhere. The UK (all of it!) will leave the EU in or around 2018.

 

On a person note I'd prefer the jocks to stay but its high time that they shut up and vacated our Parliament, and that the English had their own.

[RuamRudy]

12 minutes ago, evadgib said:

In any divorce it's usual for both parties to have their say. Had this (England etc voting too) happened in 2014 the jocks would have been out at the first attempt. Holding a gun to our heads a second time isn't going anywhere. The UK (all of it!) will leave the EU in or around 2018.

 

On a person note I'd prefer the jocks to stay but its high time that they shut up and vacated our Parliament, and that the English had their own.

 

Nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head - but the Scots expressed a clear and unequivocal desire to remain in the EU; we simply object to being pulled from it because it is the desire of our neighbours. 

 

I have no doubt that you are correct that the UK will withdraw in its entirety from the EU; hopefully that will swiftly follow with the UK being consigned to the dustbin of history, where is should have ended up in 1979.

 

By the way, Westminster is the UK parliament. If you want your own, go for it, but you need to find somewhere else to house it - for now, at least. 

[bkk_mike]

1 hour ago, Rancid said:

I was pro-independence. However, the vote was to stay, as such they had their choice and made it. As such to now argue that Scotland are more in favour of staying in the EU is absurd, and it is completely irrelevant. It is the total vote that counts in a referendum not the regional, boring political grandstanding.

 

55% voted to stay in the UK.

62% of Scotland voted to stay in the EU.

 

To argue that Scots weren't more in favour of staying in the EU than staying in the UK is absurd. Or shows a distinct inability with Maths. (like the person who thinks that Scotland's 8½% of the UK population should somehow be responsible for 25% of the UK government debt? Especially when the UK has a long, chequered history of understating the income from oil. If you believe government figures for this year, the UK government's tax take from North Sea oil will be 0.6% of Norway's tax take from North Sea oil when both are dealing with the same lowered oil price). That suggests either the UK government is really shit at negotiating with oil companies (quite possible), or the figures are "massaged" a little.

 

Scotland chooses to spend money on free prescriptions (which didn't cost as much as you'd think - after all not having to deal with exemptions, or process collections cut out a lot of red tape). It's the same with free University places. Scotland got rid of "right to buy" and doesn't put anything like as much money into "help to buy" schemes as England, and ends up with enough money so that Scottish students don't graduate with monstrous debts hanging over them. (More controversially, they do restrict places more than England does.)

[The Old Bull]

Brexit will only keep out Europeans the government will still bring in camel herders and canibals. A very stupid move.

[bkk_mike]

Just now, The Old Bull said:

Brexit will only keep out Europeans the government will still bring in camel herders and canibals. A very stupid move.

 

May has already told Ireland that there will not be a hard border with the North. (rules out tariffs on trade).

Boris Johnson has already told the US that we will keep bank passports. (which even Switzerland doesn't have).

 

That suggests the government position will be to stay in the single market.

The problem with that will be that, to the EU, that requires free movement. Expect a deal where Britain can temporarily restrict immigration, along with EEA membership.

 

Everyone wins.

UK gets to keep bank passporting, but the EU will be able to change the rules requiring Euro-denominated deals be done inside the Eurozone (UK veto stopped that last time it was attempted).

Fishermen get the fishing grounds to themselves (which Farage recently said was his "proof of Brexit".)

Immigration from the EU will be restricted somewhat (temporarily). I expect something similar to the period that France and Germany restricted immigration from Poland when it joined as the UK didn't restrict immigration then (8 years?). Ironically, Germany admitted restricting immigration from Poland had been a mistake as it meant the UK tended to get the Poles that wanted to work and be legal doing it, while Germany, on Poland's doorstep, tended to get the shadier characters...

 

And keeping single market access is probably enough to hold off a Scottish Independence vote (for the "generation" - although Salmond said it meant 15 years, remember it was Salmond who said it, not Sturgeon).

 

Scotland has several things going for it if it was to go Independent though.

1. Scotland is a net exporter. (small population keeps down imports, and whisky is exported at the rate of 38 bottles a second - and that's UK export figures, so doesn't include sales in the rest of the UK).

2. Get rid of Trident and you also get rid of the MoD block on drilling in the Clyde basin. (BP discovered oil there in the 80s, but wasn't allowed to extract it because of the nuclear submarine base)

3. Including oil, Scotland's GDP per head is above the UK average. (excluding oil, it's only a little below the UK average).

[yardrunner]

6 hours ago, ukrules said:

Not a chance. Recent polls suggest there much less support for leaving now the Scottish economy has gone to shit.

And if their was a referendum in England i think the majority would be for chucking the Scots out

[Franky Bear]

4 hours ago, daveAustin said:

Put a sock in it you old coot. No-one cares, least of all the rest of the UK and the people of the EU. Do something useful and contribute (put in, don't keep taking) rather than waste taxpayers money. If I was a jock I'd be embarrassed.

We are, SHe's turning into a bad sitcom mother.

[evadgib]

1 hour ago, The Old Bull said:

Brexit will only keep out Europeans the government will still bring in camel herders and canibals. A very stupid move.

On that particular issue I have never understood why HMG are not able to backload illegal immigrants without passing 'Go' or collecting £200 via whatever country they used as a springboard in order to reach  UK. If France etc did this too instead of gutlessly ushering them to Calais the UN's 'First safe haven' might finally be observed.

Edited September 7, 2016 by evadgib

[RuamRudy]

15 minutes ago, Franky Bear said:

We are, SHe's turning into a bad sitcom mother.

 

Is that the royal we? I haven't heard any of my friends talk of embarrassment. That said, they may be too busy laughing at Labour, both the UK and Scottish flavours, and shouldering the burdens imposed on them by the nasty party. 

 

In what way is she a 'bad sitcom mother'? I would love the hear examples. 

[Franky Bear]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Is that the royal we? I haven't heard any of my friends talk of embarrassment. That said, they may be too busy laughing at Labour, both the UK and Scottish flavours, and shouldering the burdens imposed on them by the nasty party. 

 

In what way is she a 'bad sitcom mother'? I would love the hear examples. 

ok

[RuamRudy]

5 minutes ago, Franky Bear said:

ok

 

So there is absolutely nothing of substance in your original post - just a chance to throw unwarranted epithets around? Glad we cleared that one up.

[Franky Bear]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

So there is absolutely nothing of substance in your original post - just a chance to throw unwarranted epithets around? Glad we cleared that one up.

ok

[nontabury]

3 hours ago, Caps said:

No not pettiness

England, Wales, Scotland and NI, and not matter who's fault it is free prescriptions etc cost the UK tax payer a lot of money so I think a quarter is fair.  

You forgot to mention free university education in Scotland, that can also extend to citizens in the rest of the E.U.   With the one exemption,that those residents in England,Nth Ireland and Wales are not allowed to take advantage of this generousity, even though they are in fact subsidising it.

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, nontabury said:

You forgot to mention free university education in Scotland, that can also extend to citizens in the rest of the E.U.   With the one exemption,that those residents in England,Nth Ireland and Wales are not allowed to take advantage of this generousity, even though they are in fact subsidising it.

 

By geographic region, Scotland has the third highest GDP in the UK after City of London and the SE of England. If we are talking about subsidising anyone here, unless you live in either London or the South East, the Scots are subsidising you. Show some gratitude, you ungrateful sods  

 

As for free university places, of course there needs to be restrictions on rUK students taking advantage. You chose to elect a government that doesn't care a gnat's chuff for the working man so you get the crap that goes along with that. We elected a more egalitarian government who wants to make opportunity open to the masses - but if we allow rUK students to take advantage of it, it would be too costly and nobody would benefit from it. It is not about discriminating against English, Welsh or NI students, but protecting the opportunities for Scottish students, who benefit from Scottish funds.

[nahkit]

2 hours ago, bkk_mike said:

 

55% voted to stay in the UK.

62% of Scotland voted to stay in the EU.

 

To argue that Scots weren't more in favour of staying in the EU than staying in the UK is absurd. Or shows a distinct inability with Maths. (like the person who thinks that Scotland's 8½% of the UK population should somehow be responsible for 25% of the UK government debt? Especially when the UK has a long, chequered history of understating the income from oil. If you believe government figures for this year, the UK government's tax take from North Sea oil will be 0.6% of Norway's tax take from North Sea oil when both are dealing with the same lowered oil price). That suggests either the UK government is really shit at negotiating with oil companies (quite possible), or the figures are "massaged" a little.

 

Scotland chooses to spend money on free prescriptions (which didn't cost as much as you'd think - after all not having to deal with exemptions, or process collections cut out a lot of red tape). It's the same with free University places. Scotland got rid of "right to buy" and doesn't put anything like as much money into "help to buy" schemes as England, and ends up with enough money so that Scottish students don't graduate with monstrous debts hanging over them. (More controversially, they do restrict places more than England does.)

 

"To argue that Scots weren't more in favour of staying in the EU than staying in the UK is absurd. Or shows a distinct inability with Maths."

 

Actually its not absurd.

 

There was an 84.59% Scottish turnout for the independence referendum and only a 67.2% turnout for the EU referendum.

 

In terms of actual votes, 2,001,926 Scots voters voted to remain a part of the UK and 1,661,991 voted to remain in the EU.

 

You seem to have the maths problem.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2016 by nahkit

[nontabury]

7 hours ago, NanLaew said:

"... Scottish economy has gone to shit...' How so?

 

 

    R.R seems to think that oil is not all that important to the Scottish economy,unfortunately facts prove otherwise. Anyone thinking that Scotch whiskey and Tourisam can make up the difference are living in cloud cookoo land.

Edited September 7, 2016 by nontabury
R.R thinks that oil was/is not all that important to the economy of Scotland,unfortunately facts prove otherwise. Scotch whiskey and tourism can not make up the difference.

[partington]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Nicola Sturgeon is now the most popular living Scot - official

 

You may think that she is embarrassing but most Scots see her differently. As for Brexit, that is definitely a reason to be embarrassed to be British. 

 I am English, and regard Nicola Sturgeon as the only admirable politician in the UK now (for the short while that the UK exists).

 

I think Scotland needs another vote: staying in the EU is clearly an important factor in the country's future, and Scotland can take its place as a Scandinavian-style nation of social equality, while the Conservatives turn England into a foreigner-bashing feudal society, where all the social advances since the 1940's are rolled back one after the other.

[nontabury]

4 hours ago, NongKhaiKid said:

The English complain about Sturgeon which is rich coming from a country that produced loonies like Boris and Farange to name but just a few.    

 

  Would this not be a better example!

 

 

Or perhaps this one.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2016 by nontabury

[partington]

8 minutes ago, nontabury said:

 

  Would this not be a better example!

 

 

How is asking for another expression of the will of the Scottish people through another referendum, based on the huge political changes that will be caused by Brexit,  "dragging [...] against it's (sic) wishes".

 

They can vote no again if they want, no dragging involved.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2016 by partington

[RuamRudy]

20 minutes ago, nontabury said:

 

 

    R.R seems to think that oil is not all that important to the Scottish economy,unfortunately facts prove otherwise. Anyone thinking that Scotch whiskey and Tourisam can make up the difference are living in cloud cookoo land.

 

Scotland doesn't produce any whiskey so we are well and truly screwed if we were to be reliant upon it. 

 

Pedantry aside, the North Sea's best days are most likely behind it, the proceeds utterly squandered by that hideous English woman, Thatcher,  on securing her place in infamy as she destroyed lives and communities all over my country (getting the Englishwoman bit in early before you go off on one of your rants about Blair and Brown).

 

So do we simply live with this unacceptable status quo, dominated by a larger neighbour who sees us as a mere trophy on the mantelpiece, because one of our industries is declining and the proceeds have been stolen and squandered by London? I think not - cut our losses (and our ties) and move forward without being shackled by Westminster and a London government we neither want nor deserve. 

[Baerboxer]

6 hours ago, NongKhaiKid said:

Don't worry Nicola you'll get plenty of advice on a whole range of things and most of it will be from non-Scots.

 

Every British citizen is entitled to express an opinion, not the less than 10% who are Scottish.

 

She's just trying to stir the pot and gain some traction. The same old "vote independence and we can stay in the EU" lie and anything to get her fixated independence.

 

She and the SNP have been facing some serious grumbles for not doing their day jobs. Polls aren't good. So we get old Nic issuing the miscarriage story last week and now once again claiming Scotland can choose to stay in the EU as long as they leave the UK. Donald Tusk refused to even speak to her. Other leaders were more civil but whilst expressing sympathy made it clear Scotland is not a separate country member of the EU. 

 

An independent Scotland would have to apply, as a new nation, for EU membership - which is a hell of a lot more than a formality.

 

But OP's, and we know they ain't always right, have been showing that things ain't going her way. So we get more pantomime and more limelight for the leader.

[SgtRock]

Quote

Nicola Sturgeon has shelved plans for a quick second referendum on Scottish independence after dire spending figures and a fall in public support for leaving the UK.

 

Quote

Scotland’s official public spending data last month also showed a £15bn budget deficit last year, partly due to the collapse in oil revenues. That was equivalent to 21% of overall government spending in Scotland or 9.5% of GDP, a budget deficit larger than that of Greece.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/06/nicola-sturgeon-shelves-quick-second-scottish-independence-referendum-bill

 

Crack on

[RuamRudy]

5 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

Every British citizen is entitled to express an opinion, not the less than 10% who are Scottish.

 

Not on Scotland leaving the UK, you don't. Nor should you. You can always organise your own about kicking Scotland out of the UK. I would be fine with that too.

 

6 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

The same old "vote independence and we can stay in the EU" lie and anything to get her fixated independence.

 

Much like the 'a vote to remain in the UK is the only way to remain in the EU' lie?

 

7 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

Polls aren't good. So we get old Nic issuing the miscarriage story last week

 

That is very low - I think she has shown time and again that she wears her heart on her sleeve. If you want to see disingenuous politicians, look south.

 

8 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

An independent Scotland would have to apply, as a new nation, for EU membership - which is a hell of a lot more than a formality.

 

Which is why she is out, working hard, building the case for re-entry. 

[Baerboxer]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Scotland doesn't produce any whiskey so we are well and truly screwed if we were to be reliant upon it. 

 

Pedantry aside, the North Sea's best days are most likely behind it, the proceeds utterly squandered by that hideous English woman, Thatcher,  on securing her place in infamy as she destroyed lives and communities all over my country (getting the Englishwoman bit in early before you go off on one of your rants about Blair and Brown).

 

So do we simply live with this unacceptable status quo, dominated by a larger neighbour who sees us as a mere trophy on the mantelpiece, because one of our industries is declining and the proceeds have been stolen and squandered by London? I think not - cut our losses (and our ties) and move forward without being shackled by Westminster and a London government we neither want nor deserve. 

 

Your view of how England, and the UK regard Scotland seems more like a Mel Gibson fantasy than today's reality.

 

The majority of Scots do want to be part of the UK, and that means do want to be part of Westminster. And Scotland enjoys a healthy number of MP's per head of population, has always provided significant numbers of senior politicians, civil servants and government members. 

 

Blair and Brown - yeah, really useful at flogging off the gold reserves and doing what the banks told them to do.

 

Pity Scotland doesn't produce whiskey and the Scottish whisky seems to loose out in competitions to Taiwanese, Japanese and American versions! I see they are now trying to develop a Scottish Gin industry now 555!

[nontabury]

8 minutes ago, partington said:

 

 

How is asking for another expression of the will of the Scottish people through another referendum, based on the huge political changes that will be caused by Brexit "dragging against it's (sic) wishes".

 

They can vote no again if they want.

 

 

 

 

 

 

  Buy do they want,according to reports originating out of Scotland,this is not the case.

 

  I have a Scottish friend actually living in Scotland, not the Philippenese or Thailand, 

 who simple hates the SNP and all they stand for. His young son, drawing on his worldly experiance is very pro SNP,and did vote for separation in 2014, yet this yr voted for UK independence. 

 

 

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

The majority of Scots do want to be part of the UK,

 

And a majority of Scots want to remain in the EU - we should therefore respect their views.

[partington]

5 minutes ago, nontabury said:

 

 

  Buy do they want,according to reports originating out of Scotland,this is not the case.

 

  I have a Scottish friend actually living in Scotland, not the Philippenese or Thailand, 

 who simple hates the SNP and all they stand for. His young son, drawing on his worldly experiance is very pro SNP,and did vote for separation in 2014, yet this yr voted for UK independence. 

 

 

 

 

 

If these two people you refer to comprised the entire population of Scotland you might have a point.

 

Otherwise it's a bit irrelevant that you know a couple of people who do or don't agree with any particular point that's being made.

Edited September 7, 2016 by partington