80 million unexploded bombs: Obama pledges US help for Laos

[MyFrenU]

6 hours ago, HappyDazed said:

 

You sure?.... If so, what year?

 

As I understand it the US left Indochina in 1975 after an ass kicking from a bunch of barefoot rice farmers using antique weapons.

Exactly why Hollyweird has to rewrite history to make it look like they won WWII,when the real truth is they stood by watching Europe get pounded by the Luftwaffe until the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour,half a small South-East Asian nation roundly and soundly kicked their asses!

[craigt3365]

14 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

Are you blaming the Vietnamese for wanting independence or the French for not granting it to them?

 

When the Viet Minh were carrying out a guerrilla campaign against the Japanese from 1941 onwards, guess who armed and trained them?

 

Yep, the OSS! 

 

One of many times the USA's "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" foreign policy has come back to bite them on the proverbial!

The answer to your question is obvious. 

 

I guess at that time, siding with China and the USSR to help with the spread of communism was frowned upon.  Even the UK was against this.

[Graemej100]

20 hours ago, Usernames said:

 

The base was Long Tieng.  It was not an American military base.  There were no American military bases in Laos.  Air America flew out of Long Tieng and other Lima Sites. There were four (sometimes five) factions in this war and at least three of them changed sides several times.

 

One of those bases, and I think it was called Lima 5, not sure, is at Vang Vien. You can walk on it without any problems. It's almost in the town. Within walking distance. It was not a military base. It was CIA. They'd fly in the arms to the local warlord who'd supply them with drugs and then they'd take the drugs to bribe the Hmong to fight for the CIA. Or it might have been the other way around. Whatever, it was pretty bloody grubby and the Hmong, even to this day, are still suffering and are treated as very second class citizens. The Khmer have long memories.

[Rancid]

As far as I can see there were no winners in Vietnam except those financing the war and weapons manufacturers. I was a few years off the draft before Oz pulled out. Easy for us armchair warriors to comment, would be more interested in the opinions of those that were actually there.

[thaibeachlovers]

This is a very good thing and comes far too late for thousands that have been killed and maimed.

However, the situation is no different since Obama was first elected, and it took him 7 1/2 years to do something about it . I wonder why ( not really )?

[thaibeachlovers]

7 minutes ago, Rancid said:

As far as I can see there were no winners in Vietnam except those financing the war and weapons manufacturers. I was a few years off the draft before Oz pulled out. Easy for us armchair warriors to comment, would be more interested in the opinions of those that were actually there.

I knew several NZ army guys that were there, and none of them thought it was terrible to be in V N at that time.

[7by7]

9 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

Quote

     On ‎07‎/‎09‎/‎2016 at 0:09 PM, 7by7 said:

 

Are you blaming the Vietnamese for wanting independence or the French for not granting it to them?

 

When the Viet Minh were carrying out a guerrilla campaign against the Japanese from 1941 onwards, guess who armed and trained them?

 

Yep, the OSS! 

 

One of many times the USA's "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" foreign policy has come back to bite them on the proverbial!

The answer to your question is obvious. 

 

I guess at that time, siding with China and the USSR to help with the spread of communism was frowned upon.  Even the UK was against this.

 

From your remarks, I surmise that you blame the Vietnamese for wanting independence.

[craigt3365]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 

From your remarks, I surmise that you blame the Vietnamese for wanting independence.

I'm from the US.  You do know it wasn't that long ago we won our independence.  But Vietnam was not 100% about independence.  Like Syria, too many outsiders causing problems.

[Grouse]

11 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

The answer to your question is obvious. 

 

I guess at that time, siding with China and the USSR to help with the spread of communism was frowned upon.  Even the UK was against this.

 

One of the best things Harold Wilson did was to keep us out of that "Crazy Asian War".

 

BTW, IMHO, the Vientnamese just wanted out from under the colonial yoke whether French or Japanese. What the American idea was, who knows? I've been round the museums and it still makes no sense.

 

As for Laos; poor bastards. They should get 90 Billion.

 

Read "The Ravens" if you want to know a bit more.

[chiang mai]

On 07/09/2016 at 10:24 AM, KKr said:

Did not know the USA had dropped so much ordinance on Laos.
The Generals must have thought about it, and have concluded that it was absolutely necessary to save lives.

The contribution is about a dollar per device.
Looks like a pittance in comparison to the real cost of  a serious and coordinated de-mining operation.
(In Sri Lanka, some areas were swept three times before they were cleared for agricultural or residential use.)
 

 

The bombing of Laos was a bi-product of US forces starting their bombing runs from Thailand (Issan), into North Vietnam and not being allowed to return and land on Thai soil with bombs on board, one of the conditions imposed on them by the then Thai government. - the Plain of Jars is a pockmarked scar that can be easily seen from the air when flying commercial airlines, especially during the rainy seasons when the bomb craters fill with water.

 

To add, The Ravens is a must read on this subject, as is Air America by Christopher Robbin .

Edited September 8, 2016 by chiang mai

[Grouse]

40 years on, the whole world is still suffering the after shocks of the Vietnam War. There's a PhD for someone to explain the effects on the American Psyche generally. I have failed to unearth ANY sensible strategic aim. Domino effect? Nah, not really. Now, here we are, appalled at the bombs dropped on poor Laos. Somebody needs to stand up and say this was a pointless war, a cock-up. I am not at all surprised at the continuing angst of American Vets. What's to be done?

[sgtsabai]

90 million USD is a drop in the bucket and the money will mostly end up in the elites' bank account, or the Chinese. Lao is corrupt to the core and is a vassal state of China. I agree 100%, read "The Ravens". You will see what it was like for those inside and the struggles they had. They loved the Meo, not so much the Lao who wouldn't fight. As usual, the US abandoned the Meo. Yes Udorn, as it was known then, was a major center of the American War in Lao. Unlike Vietnam, I was there, USMC Sgt-VN 1966/67, where we never should have been I have doubts about Lao. I have close friends in Lao, I only live an hour away, not counting the time crossing the border. My knowledge isn't great, but having known both Americans and Thais that were there, I'm really not sure the US didn't make a mistake in abandoning Lao. Politics. And really the news about the "secret war" was out early, nobody paid, or perhaps wanted to pay attention.

[chiang mai]

The history of the Hmong or Meo makes fascinating reading. Every time I see one on the streets of Chiang Mai selling silver bangles I'm reminded that they were once one of the most powerful dynasties in southern China, their journeys over the past one hundred and fifty hundred years are a tribute to their struggle and will to survive.

[7by7]

21 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

22 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

From your remarks, I surmise that you blame the Vietnamese for wanting independence.

I'm from the US.  You do know it wasn't that long ago we won our independence.  But Vietnam was not 100% about independence.  Like Syria, too many outsiders causing problems.

 

Indeed, you did. The main difference, of course, being that the Vietnamese fighting for their independence were the indigenous population!

 

Yes, outsiders did come in and cause problems; including the USA who didn't want the communist Viet Minh to gain independence from France and once France had been defeated they didn't want a communist government in Vietnam due to their absurd theory of the domino effect.

 

Despite, as said earlier, the OSS training and arming the Viet Minh so they could fight the Japanese. If they hadn't received that initial training and arming from the US history may very well have been different.

[sgtsabai]

And Uncle Ho was an admirer of the US and especially the US Constitution. He had been to the US and correct the OSS worked with him and his troops during WWII. I often wonder if when they returned they turned their backs on him or nobody would listen to them.

 

The situation in Lao was much more complicated than some seem to think. While it was absolutely terrible what the bombing and the unexploded bombing did in Lao, please take my word for it, when you are on the ground and it looks like all is lost the bombs are a godsend. BTW, not one jar on the Plane of Jars was hit. Some good books and research are available. My Thai friend worked at both the American Embassy in Vientiane and here in Udon. He has a lot of tales, including the fact he wasn't ready to abandon the US Embassy in Vientiane. Some of the pilots helped him over the years that followed. He probably needed it, he liked the ladies...lol.

 

I often have correspondence with a man that has an internet newsletter. He has experience in SE Asia and was in Lao relatively early after the US pulled out and some people were allowed in. He spent much time with a Pathet Lao Colonel and his family. He told me that after some time he felt comfortable asking some personal questions. He asked the Colonel why he and his wife had 13 children. The Colonel replied "You Americans kept us in the caves so much with your bombs that we didn't have anything else to do". Now that is a sense of humor, battlefield humor. One way to deal with war.

 

Our speaker at the Marine Corps B-day Ball in Vientiane last year was a Vietnam Vet and was a member of the State Department after the Embassy reopened in Vientiane. He was there when what he calls the rag tag Lao army sent the Thai army running/swimming from the island in the Mekong back in the '80's. I remarked to him after we had finished rehearsal for the ceremony about the sturdy young men checking the room for explosives that they were probably Pathet Lao descendent's, he said "good".

 

Oh, and many of the helicopter pilots came from the Marines that were sent to build the airbase in Udorn, I believe 1964. Good money, reinstated in the Corps with no loss of time and rank, if they survived. It was that way in VN with the Phoenix Program.

Edited September 9, 2016 by sgtsabai

[Shawn0000]

8 minutes ago, sgtsabai said:

And Uncle Ho was an admirer of the US and especially the US Constitution. He had been to the US and correct the OSS worked with him and his troops during WWII. I often wonder if when they returned they turned their backs on him or nobody would listen to them.

 

The situation in Lao was much more complicated than some seem to think. While it was absolutely terrible what the bombing and the unexploded bombing did in Lao, please take my word for it, when you are on the ground and it looks like all is lost the bombs are a godsend. BTW, not one jar on the Plane of Jars was hit. Some good books and research are available. My Thai friend worked at both the American Embassy in Vientiane and here in Udon. He has a lot of tales, including the fact he wasn't ready to abandon the US Embassy in Vientiane. Some of the pilots helped him over the years that followed. He probably needed it, he liked the ladies...lol.

 

I often have correspondence with a man that has an internet newsletter. He has experience in SE Asia and was in Lao relatively early after the US pulled out and some people were allowed in. He spent much time with a Pathet Lao Colonel and his family. He told me that after some time he felt comfortable asking some personal questions. He asked the Colonel why he and has wife had 13 children. The Colonel replied "You Americans keep us in the caves so much with your bombs that we didn't have anything else to do". Now that is a sense of humor, battlefield humor. One way to deal with war.

 

Our speaker at the Marine Corps B-day Ball in Vientiane last year was a Vietnam Vet and was a member of the State Department after the Embassy reopened in Vientiane. He was there when what he calls the rag tag Lao army sent the Thai army running/swimming from the island in the Mekong back in the '80's. I remarked to him after we had finished rehearsal for the ceremony about the sturdy young men checking the room for explosives that they were probably Pathet Lao descendent's, he said "good".

 

Oh, and many of the helicopter pilots came from the Marines that were sent to build the airbase in Udorn. Good money, reinstated in the Corps with no loss of time and rank, if they survived. It was that way in VN with the Phoenix Program.

 

" BTW, not one jar on the Plane of Jars was hit. "

 

I guess this one wasn't a direct hit but i think you will find that it was the bomb that broke it.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=plain+of+jars+bombing&biw=1280&bih=656&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwic5Iq2moLPAhUKRo8KHYHsDUAQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=x7jrk_s9xAUSEM%3A

 

You really don't need to read a book about it, just go there and take a look, the place is practically one big bomb crater and many jars are broken.

Edited September 9, 2016 by Shawn0000

[HappyDazed]

1 hour ago, sgtsabai said:

 

it was absolutely terrible what the bombing and the unexploded bombing did in Lao, please take my word for it, when you are on the ground and it looks like all is lost the bombs are a godsend.

 

 

Really?

[sgtsabai]

Shawn0000 I was relying on my friends information from his recent  motorcycle trip there. I'll go pretty soon.

 

HappyDazed Yea really, but not for the other guys. Ah, it's no fun being on the receiving end of RPG's and mortars. Been there, done that, didn't get a t-shirt. Every watch "Puff" work? Beautiful if it's working for you. Hell if it isn't.

[Shawn0000]

3 minutes ago, sgtsabai said:

Shawn0000 I was relying on my friends information from his recent  motorcycle trip there. I'll go pretty soon.

 

HappyDazed Yea really, but not for the other guys. Ah, it's no fun being on the receiving end of RPG's and mortars. Been there, done that, didn't get a t-shirt. Every watch "Puff" work? Beautiful if it's working for you. Hell if it isn't.

 

Its worth a trip, I don't know why your friend told you that, he was not telling the truth.

[sgtsabai]

Lao pics. A good use of what appears to be external fuel tanks. I had one of a SAM missle, still looked useable but lost it.

[sgtsabai]

Maybe he just didn't see any obviously broken by bombs, I've known him too long, he doesn't lie. I want to go there and the old CIA/Air America/Raven's camps. I know some of the Ravens went back some years ago, but were lied to by the Lao government and weren't really allowed to go to the base or met with any of the Meo people.

 

One of the Americans working on the KIA recovery program was at the VFW July 4th party recently, accompanied by some tough looking dudes, Lao is my guess, military one way or the other. I was late arriving, due to the 'ol lady's forgetting I was attending and being late returning my truck, arrrrgggghhhh, and didn't get a chance to talk with him.