Buddhism & Democracy In Bhutan

[sabaijai]

Buddhism has many principles that fit with democracy

Kuensel Online, November 21, 2006

Timphu, Bhutan -- Dr. Robert Thurman, professor of Indo-Tibetan Buddhist studies at Columbia University has visited Bhutan many times since the early 90s. On his most recent visit he spoke to Kuensel on the changes he has seen, Buddhism and democracy and the alienation of Bhutanese youth from their cultural moorings.

Dr. Robert Thurman gave a talk in Thimphu on Thursday. Here are excerpts from the interview.

Q This is the sixth or seventh time you have visited Bhutan. What brings you back this time?

A The usual thing. A group of people who want to do a pilgrimage rather than tourism. And so we decided to have a retreat and practice Buddhism, meditating and discussing the Dharma while visiting the holy places in Bhutan.

Q What are the changes, good and bad, you have seen in Bhutan all these years?

A I don’t think I can see much bad because I come too quickly, unfortunately. We hear that the young people, some of them are kind of disillusioned and dissatisfied. But I don’t get to see that much because I go to the monk places, the beautiful monuments and then go walking in nature, meditate on the Buddhist path. So I don’t really see the difficulties as much as I might if I was here for a longer period. But I am sure that with the advent of television, the growth of buildings and all the people moving from the villages to the city, all of that brings its problems.

I am happy to see though that in the countryside you don’t see empty villages, people look pretty cheerful still, so it doesn’t seem like a disaster like it could be in some other parts of the world. It seems things are still in a pretty good balance.

The change of government coming up with the King abdicating in 2008 and the new Crown Prince coming to be as King and the advent of more stronger constitutional democracy, these are big changes.

Q A lot of Bhutanese feel that Bhutan’s transition to democracy is premature. What do you think?

A Last year I was here and I looked at the provisional constitution that is being finalised now and I can’t remember, I am sorry to say, exactly but I was a little worried that the King might be giving up a little too much power and I think it is important that the King retain, at least for quite a period of time, some sort of a checking power over the legislature, over the Assembly.

That’s going too quickly towards democracy, full democracy, without having some power to check things, where people have not yet got used to democracy and they are not educated fully for democracy it could cause a lot of confusion. In America what we see is that the commercial interests, the big corporations, tend to corrupt democracy therefore there must be some strong force to oppose them or to keep them in check. And the whole concept of Gross National Happiness and the conservation of resources and keeping changes towards materialistic development in a calm and gentle way I think is very much fostered by the Monarchy.

Q Can the principles of democracy be derived from Buddhism?

A Buddhism has many principles that fit with democracy such as individualism, allowing people to develop their own mind to the fullest than having to serve whatever their duty is, parents, cast etc. This is very much in consonant with democracy. Buddhism teaches each person to have the opportunity to develop their own being towards enlightenment, to the fullest extent in life. That is the highest thing in the society.

Out of that principle comes monasticism. A monk is supported by the society to develop their knowledge and their spirituality and then also the idea that education is so central and the idea that there should be a welfare state and people’s basic needs should be met by the state.

Finally the idea that the people are equal and everyone should have equal opportunity to develop them. These are all principles of Buddhism, which in different western countries have been imperfectly realised throughout history. Tibet, Bhutan and Mongolia had been the best and most successful in realising these principles although they are not perfect.

The principles of Buddhism of enlightenment, education, individualism, and altruism and egalitarianism all of these are realised through democracy.

Specially, as Bhutan moves more democratically, the education system for the lay people should include more instructions in the main principles of Buddhism.

Buddhism as a science, as a philosophy, ethical system should be well understood by the lay secular population. Then they see to a good quality of democracy. This movement to democracy involves some serious development in the educational curriculum.

Q Why is it that with modernization a lot of Bhutanese youth feel alienated from the moral principles of Buddhism?

A The point is how well educated is the youth in the moral principles of Buddhism? They may feel alienated from the traditional idea that Buddhism is going to the monasteries and offerings or bowing to the lam. But that is just the faith oriented Buddhism and that’s good in itself but for people who are educated in modern subjects like science and history they have to be educated in Buddhism in a modern way to really understand what is it about. In schools you should have courses in Buddhist philosophy, Buddhist ethics.

Q Is it possible to attain enlightenment without being Buddhist?

A Yes I think so. Although the Buddhist philosophy and psychology about realistic worldview and realistic meditation I think, to be fully enlightened, that psychology and philosophy must be fully explored and understood.

But you could do that without philosophy without formally being a Buddhist. In Buddhism enlightenment comes through understanding reality and not just through believing, not just through faith. If you think Buddhism as a religion is somehow taking refuge and having faith then that won’t necessarily produce enlightenment.

Q Is enlightenment nirvana or is there a difference between the two states?

A Enlightenment is same as nirvana and more than nirvana. It is also the full understanding of Samsara because ultimately nirvana and Samsara are same, but enlightenment is understanding the world. That is how you attain nirvana because you have to understand that the reality of the world is nirvana. If you believe that the reality of the world is nirvana that could be helpful in trying to practice but that is not going to give you enlightenment by just believing.

Q Can Buddhism be a remedy for personal and cultural maladies?

A In the west, the best teachers of Buddhism teaches Buddhism as a psychology, philosophy and even therapy without insisting on the religion side of it, but use that to develop wisdom.

Developing wisdom means doubting and being critical, it doesn’t necessarily mean believing something. So maladies have to do with people feeling dissatisfied, angry, anxious, frightened and Buddhism has a psychotherapy. That’s why Buddhism has been so successful over so many centuries because it helps people live better lives. It is the best science.

Q What stops Buddhism from being deemed a nihilistic philosophy?

A Buddhism is critical of nihilism. The materialistic science says that you have no former or future life and that you don’t have a mind, but a brain and that you are just a material mechanism. And therefore, when you die you just become nothing. That is nihilism, which means everything ultimately doesn’t matter. There is no consequences to your actions ultimately. And you could just do whatever you want and when you die you don’t exist.

Buddhism believes that as an unrealistic view and that every something changes into something else and no something can become nothing. Some of the religions that believed in god, in creator, they think that Buddhism is a bit nihilistic because Buddhism doesn’t believe in creator god.

Buddhism believes there are gods but they are not creators of the universe, they are not omnipotent.

So Buddhism can be confused with nihilism in the sense that Buddhism says there is no self and emptiness. Buddhism itself is very critical of nihilism. Buddhism teaches of karma, evolution, and there is also a consequence to every act, every cause has an effect. So that is not nihilistic.

[jumnien]

Very interesting reading, thanks. Please excuse my ignorance (I'm American) but when I was in Nepal I noticed large Bhutanese refugee camps. What are they running from in Bhutan, I keep hearing about what a peaceful jolly country it is?

[robitusson]

Sure they weren't Tibetan refugees?

[Suthep_Steve]

Buddhism has many principles that fit with democracy

Kuensel Online, November 21, 2006

Q Can the principles of democracy be derived from Buddhism?

A Buddhism has many principles that fit with democracy such as individualism, allowing people to develop their own mind to the fullest than having to serve whatever their duty is, parents, cast etc. This is very much in consonant with democracy. Buddhism teaches each person to have the opportunity to develop their own being towards enlightenment, to the fullest extent in life. That is the highest thing in the society.

Out of that principle comes monasticism. A monk is supported by the society to develop their knowledge and their spirituality and then also the idea that education is so central and the idea that there should be a welfare state and people’s basic needs should be met by the state.

Finally the idea that the people are equal and everyone should have equal opportunity to develop them. These are all principles of Buddhism, which in different western countries have been imperfectly realised throughout history. Tibet, Bhutan and Mongolia had been the best and most successful in realising these principles although they are not perfect.

The principles of Buddhism of enlightenment, education, individualism, and altruism and egalitarianism all of these are realised through democracy.

Specially, as Bhutan moves more democratically, the education system for the lay people should include more instructions in the main principles of Buddhism.

Buddhism as a science, as a philosophy, ethical system should be well understood by the lay secular population. Then they see to a good quality of democracy. This movement to democracy involves some serious development in the educational curriculum.

There may be some aspects of Buddhism where you can draw parallels with democracy but by enlarge the two do not fit well together. Most Buddhist communities are non democratic in fact one Western Nun said in a conversation in which I was involved that it was totally fascist. Well lets say that Buddhism tends towards benevolent dictatorships.

The whole idea of putting your trust in an 'enlightened teacher' is very far away from the democratic ideal of individuals being responsible for making there own lifes journey either on their own or collectively.

This is not a critisicm of Buddhism I happen to think that is the best way to achieve enlightenment. It just makes me feel uneasy when Western Buddhists try and graft Western ideas on to Buddhism just because it fits in better with there own preconceived ideas. (No disrespect intended towards Dr. Thurman)

[jumnien]

Here's a bit of scoop on Bhutanese refugees in Nepal from 2000 -

One hundred thousand ethnic Nepalese refugees who say they are Bhutanese have been living in camps in Nepal for the last ten years following their alleged eviction by the Bhutanese government.

Nepal says that all refugees are Bhutanese nationals, and that Bhutan should allow them to return to home.

Bhutan is prepared to take back only a few thousand who it says are genuine Bhutanese nationals.

Nepalese vindicated

Nepal wanted to verify the nationality of the refugees on the basis of the head of the refugee family. Bhutan favoured the verification of individual refugee.

That the two countries have now agreed to start the process on the basis of the family is widely seen as the vindication of the Nepalese position.

The agreement is an important breakthrough in the bilateral talks on resolving the long-standing dispute between the two countries.

However, analysts say the total resolution of the problem is still a long way off, as verification will take a long time to be completed.

This doesn't point to any major conflict within Bhutan. Next time I'll google first before insinuating that Bhutan is lower on the happiness level than their marketing department would have us know.

[chownah]

The whole idea of putting your trust in an 'enlightened teacher' is very far away from the democratic ideal of individuals being responsible for making there own lifes journey either on their own or collectively.

The Buddha did not say to put your trust in him mindlessly and unconditionally.....in fact he said that you should not believe something just because he said it but that you should use your own energies to test the truth of his statements.....didn't he?

Chownah

Edited November 26, 2006 by chownah

[ourmanflint]

But that is just the faith oriented Buddhism and that’s good in itself but for people who are educated in modern subjects like science and history they have to be educated in Buddhism in a modern way to really understand what is it about. In schools you should have courses in Buddhist philosophy, Buddhist ethics.

I think it's good to see that he sees this very big difference!

[Suthep_Steve]

The whole idea of putting your trust in an 'enlightened teacher' is very far away from the democratic ideal of individuals being responsible for making there own lifes journey either on their own or collectively.

The Buddha did not say to put your trust in him mindlessly and unconditionally.....in fact he said that you should not believe something just because he said it but that you should use your own energies to test the truth of his statements.....didn't he?

Chownah

That's true and I believe that is the best way for some one entering the path. However .....

When you come to things like karma and the nature of reality the only way you can prove the truth of them is to have realized them directly. But if you meditate on them with doubt and confusion in your mind you will never come to realize them. Therefore you have to make a leap of faith and say I trust what the Buddha said. That does not have to be a mindless decision you can take many years testing out the truth of what the Buddha said in general, and getting to know the beauty of Buddhist logic, but you will not achieve realizations if you stay at that level.

[chownah]

I believe it is the teachings you need to have faith in (at some point) and not the 'enlightened teacher'.

Chownah

[Suthep_Steve]

I believe it is the teachings you need to have faith in (at some point) and not the 'enlightened teacher'.

Chownah

Who wrote the translations into English or Thai if you don't read Pali?

Who tells you which teachings are genuine and which are false?

Who tells you how to put Buddha's 84000 teachings into practice?

Who shows a perfect example to inspire you?

Who is the true Sangha jewel?

How can you progress if you don't have faith in the Enlightened Teacher?

Don't you go for refuge to / have faith in Buddha, Dharma and Sangha if you are a Buddhist?

I think we are getting a bit off topic here, sorry all.

[chownah]

Q:Who wrote the translations into English or Thai if you don't read Pali?

A: Many people wrote them.

Q:Who tells you which teachings are genuine and which are false?

A: The Buddha's teaching tells how to discern this.

Q:Who tells you how to put Buddha's 84000 teachings into practice?

A: The Buddha's teachings tells how to do this.

Q:Who shows a perfect example to inspire you?

A:No one that I have met.

Q:Who is the true Sangha jewel?

A:The Buddha is the Dhamma.

Q:How can you progress if you don't have faith in the Enlightened Teacher?

A: You follow the teachings of the Buddha. The Buddha knew that enlightnement was possible without even having knowledge of his teachings and there is even a Pali name for this type of enlightened person.

Q:Don't you go for refuge to / have faith in Buddha, Dharma and Sangha if you are a Buddhist?

A: Going for refuge, yes. Following blindly what is held up to represent these things, no.

Statement: I think we are getting a bit off topic here, sorry all.

Reply: No problem.....it happens all the time.

Chownah