Harder times for Palestine if Clinton wins US election

[Ulysses G.]

2 hours ago, dexterm said:

The Palestinians would love to build infrastructure, but Israel refuses to grant building permits.

 

 

Because the Palestinians use building materials for terrorist infrastructure. They have themselves to blame.

[dexterm]

3 hours ago, CharlieK said:

 

I note with interest you are the first to mention anti semitism! are you accusing yourself? As for old ploys, the kettle calling the pot black maybe? Israel wants to be recognised as a jewish state, but nowhere has any Israeli politician said arabs in Israel have to leave once a Palestinian state is created. So again this ethnic cleansing rhetoric is just that. It is the Arabs who have stated no jews can live in a Palestinian state. Have they not?

 

I guess you only discuss issues you know you can win or is it that you refuse to recognise the other side of the issue. demonising for the sake of, rather than look at ways that could resolve an issue. Or for you there is only one resolution?    

 

  

 

>>I note with interest you are the first to mention anti semitism! are you accusing yourself?

A regular Israeli apologist on this forum introduced the subject earlier in the thread at post #11 before I did.

 

It's the height of chutzpah to ethnically cleanse indigenous Palestinians twice into refugee camps in the West Bank then claim the European Zionist colonizers are somehow the victims when it comes to decolonizing the stolen land.

 

Just another example of the great Israeli hoax calling black white.

 

If Jews ,fresh off a plane from New York, want to claim the right to live in the West Bank, perhaps they should at least reciprocate by allowing Palestinian refugees who still hold the keys to their properties the right of return to their homes in Israel itself.

 

I believe there are several solutions to the conflict. One favored by US politicians such as Clinton, or at least one she pays lip service to (who knows what Trump thinks??), is a two state solution, whose possibility is diminishing as Zionist colonies encroach on land for a future Palestinian state.

[dexterm]

1 hour ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

Because the Palestinians use building materials for terrorist infrastructure. They have themselves to blame.

Complete hogwash. You are deliberately conflating Israeli pretexts for leaving Gaza in ruins with Palestinians with EU support building on their own land in the West Bank.

[Ulysses G.]

2 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Complete hogwash. You are deliberately conflating Israeli pretexts for leaving Gaza in ruins with Palestinians with EU support building on their own land in the West Bank.

 

It was Palestinian looters who left Gaza in ruins and they used building materials for bunkers for terrorists and tunnels for their use in attacking civilians in Israel.

[JingerBen]

It wasn't Palestinian looters who left Gaza in ruins, it was Israeli warplanes.

 

[abrahamzvi]

23 hours ago, teacherofwoe said:

Rothschild Zionism is devastating to Palestine, Jews everywhere, and the entire population of the planet. The world needs to wake up and see who is controlling them, and funding people like the Bushes, Clintons, Obamas, etc. to do their bidding. Please, don't let your cognitive dissidence rule you and research the facts for yourself. 

If you follow my posts you know that I am strictly against the Israeli policy of occupation and subjugation of the Palestinians (not against Israel, as such, but for a free Palestine side by side with Israel, or a bi national state with Israel). However, I am horrified to read your post, as this is pure Nazi propaganda, which could have been taken from any of Hitler's books or "speeches". I thought that this antisemitic propaganda is a thing of the past, but alas, it seems I was wrong.

 

I do think that the US governments should have reacted differently to the Israeli policies and although I think Obama is a great President, I am of the view that he should have followed President Eisenhaueur who simply told Israel after the 1956 Suez war to follow his instructions, or forget US economical, political and military support. The Israelis listened and acted accordingly. However, having said this, allow me to indicate to you that there are many Jews in the US and other countries who disagree with Israel's government and ask for justice for the Palestinians (see such organizations as Jewish Voice for Peace, J-street and others).

 

May I suggest to you to take back your inflammatory words and apologize for your statements.

[Jingthing]

Jew haters are not going to apologize. They're deplorable and irredeemable. 

More evidence of something we all should know quite well by now. Israel demonization and Jew hatred -- largely the same thing.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Jingthing

[Naam]

18 hours ago, Ulysses G. said:

Totally agree. Israel would like to make peace, but as long as the Palestinians keep refusing, they are only hurting themselves.

more settlements and land thievery does not indicate a will to peace.

[Naam]

12 hours ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

Because the Palestinians use building materials for terrorist infrastructure. They have themselves to blame.

[Naam]

6 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Jew haters are not going to apologize. They're deplorable and irredeemable. 

More evidence of something we all should know quite well by now. Israel demonization and Jew hatred -- largely the same thing.

 

rejecting and strongly criticising Israel's land stealing policies has nothing to do with Jew hatred. if that was the case then a high percentage of Israelis who don't wear blinkers could be called Jew haters.

[MisterTee]

More settlements and land thievery does not indicate a will to peace.

That's the very heart of the matter, isn't it?

All the rest is misleading propaganda.

[Naam]

fact!

 

Quote

Israeli settlers and their organizations control some 42 percent of West Bank land, even though the settlements' built-up area is just one per cent of the territory, the Israel B'tselem Human Rights Organization said in a report released Tuesday.

 

Even though some 66 percent of the settlements' built-up areas are defined as being on "state land," B'tselem found that "allocation of this land for settlements was only possible through a manipulative interpretation of all relevant laws in force in the West Bank."

read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/rights-group-israeli-settlements-control-42-percent-of-west-bank-1.300303

 

[Jingthing]

 

rejecting and strongly criticising Israel's land stealing policies has nothing to do with Jew hatred. if that was the case then a high percentage of Israelis who don't wear blinkers could be called Jew haters.

Dude ... you should know that normal criticism of Israeli government policies is not the same thing as demonization. I have explained this countless times here.

[Jingthing]

But they indeed do.

[MisterTee]

Peremptorily calling demonization to silence normal criticism of Israeli government policies has long been a familiar tactic.

It doesn't work anymore.

[Naam]

19 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Dude ... you should know that normal criticism of Israeli government policies is not the same thing as demonization. I have explained this countless times here.

Dude... you should know that i don't care about explanations from people who are one day commenting rather rationally and wearing the next day a yarmulke that blocks temporarily their views. 

[Jingthing]

28 minutes ago, Naam said:

Dude... you should know that i don't care about explanations from people who are one day commenting rather rationally and wearing the next day a yarmulke that blocks temporarily their views. 

What a disgusting comment. 

[Jingthing]

37 minutes ago, MisterTee said:

Peremptorily calling demonization to silence normal criticism of Israeli government policies has long been a familiar tactic.

It doesn't work anymore.

Wrong. Totally wrong. Rational people can almost always tell the difference. There are also some cases of grey areas where it's best to give the benefit of any doubt and assume the criticism is normal and sincere.

 

This is NOT about any attempt to silence normal criticism of Israel as towards any other nation with flaws (ALL OF THEM) so please stop with the lies. 

Edited September 14, 2016 by Jingthing

[Johpa]

On 9/13/2016 at 0:36 AM, teacherofwoe said:

Rothschild Zionism is devastating to Palestine, Jews everywhere, and the entire population of the planet. The world needs to wake up and see who is controlling them, and funding people like the Bushes, Clintons, Obamas, etc. to do their bidding. Please, don't let your cognitive dissidence rule you and research the facts for yourself. 

 

Ah yes, the ol' Elders of Zion conspiracy rearing its head once again with the inference of those damn Jews financially controlling the world.  But yes, Zionism has been hard luck on Palestinians, a group that can only be defined as Arabs displaced by the historical advent of Zionism, in the same manner as countless others have been displaced by historical migrations of peoples, including the migrations of most likely your kind to North and South America and Australia.  Zionism created the State of Israel and contrary to your assertion, is not devastating to other Jews but has emboldened them and empowered them.  And most of the planet cares not a whit about a small sliver of land in the Levant outside the pampered halls of that rather irrelevant institution the UN, where the spoils from corrupt third world dictatorships are sent as ambassadors who use the condemnation of Israel as their only raison d'être for enjoying a pampered NYC existence while their country's men and women lives in poverty.

 

There is plenty to criticize in Israel ranging from income inequality to the Likud's politics and their creation of an apartheid-like existence in places like Hebron.  But most Israelis are quite secular and are far removed from Zionism (Israel is simply their home)  or any concept of some sort of "greater Israel" as espoused by the minority orthodox religious folks. Although that group is gaining in number, partially in response to the growth once again of the cognitively dissonant like yourself who provided the original justification for Zionism.

[Jingthing]

Secular Jews and secular Israelis can certainly be pro Zionist and actually usually are. They may not personally relate to the word but if they support the existence and defense of the state of Israel they are indeed pro Zionist. The historical origins of the political ideology of Zionism (about political self determination for the Jewish people) are largely secular. I do think in many ways the term is dated and LOADED.

 

Israel has existed since 1948. The existence of Israel is Zionism.

 

I'm aware that odious Israel demonizers have largely succeeded in making Zionism a dirty word in a similar way that just the word Jew is a dirty word for so many. They often try to paint the more extreme right wing Zionists as defining everything about Zionism or Israeli nationalism. But that is simply not the truth. 

 

It might also be worth stating the obvious ... ask 100 Jews what is Zionism and you'll get 100 different answers. Oh well!

Edited September 14, 2016 by Jingthing

[SheungWan]

On 13/09/2016 at 8:36 AM, teacherofwoe said:

Rothschild Zionism is devastating to Palestine, Jews everywhere, and the entire population of the planet. The world needs to wake up and see who is controlling them, and funding people like the Bushes, Clintons, Obamas, etc. to do their bidding. Please, don't let your cognitive dissidence rule you and research the facts for yourself. 

 

The interesting point as far as a thread of this type is concerned is not so much that old style neo-Nazis pop out with their Rothschild conspiracy theory nonsense, it is rather that erstwhile left-wing and other supporters of the Palestinian cause give the extreme right a free pass and not a peep of opposition to what has been said. Under the aegis of 'taking sides' they think they are taking a principled position while at the same time catching fleas from their new friends (see the list of contributors following the above comments). Its a giveaway.

[dexterm]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

 

The interesting point as far as a thread of this type is concerned is not so much that old style neo-Nazis pop out with their Rothschild conspiracy theory nonsense, it is rather that erstwhile left-wing and other supporters of the Palestinian cause give the extreme right a free pass and not a peep of opposition to what has been said. Under the aegis of 'taking sides' they think they are taking a principled position while at the same time catching fleas from their new friends (see the list of contributors following the above comments). Its a giveaway.

I believe that such garbage as the Protocols of Zion are racist and hogwash. 

 

But I also know that powerful pro Israeli lobby groups such as AIPAC are a driving influence on US policy. There is no other explanation for the US seeming blind support of a racist, undemocratic, repressive regime 6,000 miles from American shores that repeatedly bites the hand that feeds it.

[Ulysses G.]

3 minutes ago, dexterm said:

I believe that such garbage as the Protocols of Zion are racist and hogwash. 

 

 

Really? Yet you often quote from websites that promote this type of nonsense as well as counterfeit history. Pro-Palestinian rhetoric relies on this kind of dishonest propoganda, which is one reason why they do not progress.

[dexterm]

1 hour ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

Really? Yet you often quote from websites that promote this type of nonsense as well as counterfeit history. Pro-Palestinian rhetoric relies on this kind of dishonest propoganda, which is one reason why they do not progress.

Nonsense. Put up or shut up. Please do not attempt to besmirch me.

I suggest you read again what I wrote: " I believe that such garbage as the Protocols of Zion are racist and hogwash. "

[Naam]

11 hours ago, Jingthing said:

What a disgusting comment. 

please explain why wearing a yarmulke is disgusting.

[Steely Dan]

The whole premise of this topic is highly revealing. It suggests that the fortunes of the Palestinians are dependent on outside interference and never God forbid their own actions. The ruling elite in Palestinian controlled territory are filthy rich, due to their cynical milking of outside aid. There ha never been any inducement for them to make peace.

In my view U.S and European interference in the region has nearly always made things worse. If U.S aid to both Israel and the Palestinians was stopped and Europe stopped bankrolling Palestinian terrorists I predict peace would quickly follow.

Indeed Israel has already made peace and is actively cooperating with several Arab states. This has even led to a gradual moderation in the Arab press towards Israel and all this happened with Netanyahu at the helm. The time for Palestinian rejectionism is fast running out.


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[Jingthing]

5 hours ago, Naam said:

please explain why wearing a yarmulke is disgusting.

Don't even bother with such idiotic, disingenuous personally baiting posts.

You're a smart person -- you know perfectly well I did not say wearing a yarmulke was disgusting so why would I explain something I never said. 

I said YOUR COMMENT was disgusting.

[dexterm]

3 hours ago, Steely Dan said:

The whole premise of this topic is highly revealing. It suggests that the fortunes of the Palestinians are dependent on outside interference and never God forbid their own actions. The ruling elite in Palestinian controlled territory are filthy rich, due to their cynical milking of outside aid. There ha never been any inducement for them to make peace.

In my view U.S and European interference in the region has nearly always made things worse. If U.S aid to both Israel and the Palestinians was stopped and Europe stopped bankrolling Palestinian terrorists I predict peace would quickly follow.

Indeed Israel has already made peace and is actively cooperating with several Arab states. This has even led to a gradual moderation in the Arab press towards Israel and all this happened with Netanyahu at the helm. The time for Palestinian rejectionism is fast running out.


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You gloss over the fact that it was European interference (UK)  in the region in the first place that created the whole problem ...the Zionist state of Israel.

 

Israel can do what likes in its relationship with the corrupt unelected aristocracies and dictatorships in the Arab world...all birds of a feather IMO. Their days of autocratic rule are numbered too.

 

You seem to ignore the elephant in the room when it comes to negotiating peace: Israel is the occupier, not the occupied; Israel is the only one with a powerful army; Israel holds most of the cards. And as such Israel can dictate any terms it likes, but the Palestinians are not obliged to accept them.

 

And when Palestinian rejectionism of the crumbs of a patchwork quilt of Bantustans that Israel offers (who can blame them for dismissing that?) runs out, all you are left with is an eventual one state solution, or unilateral declaration of a greater Israel which of course does not equal permanent peace in borders recognized by the world community....the only kind of peace worth having.

 

Time is on the side of Palestinians, not Israel. The Palestinian population is rising faster than Israel's, and most of world Jewry (including the Jewish keyboard warriors on this forum, who would be granted instant Israeli citizenship unlike Palestinians who were born there) are not likely to migrate to a country fraught with so many problems, when they are doing very nicely where they are.

 

Let's hope the future US President can think through this scenario too, and perhaps gain a Nobel Peace Prize by making Israel face reality.
 

Edited September 15, 2016 by dexterm

[Jingthing]

The subtext of the Israel demonization agenda, whether said explicitly or not, is that Israel never deserved to exist in the first place, and they can't wait to see the happy day (to them) when it no longer exists.

 

Let's consider that POV -- it's a hateful Jew hating POV. When Israel was established by the U.N. there was a plan for a Palestinian state by its side. The entire Arab and Muslim world rejected this ... invading Israel immediately. That's the root of the Palestinian failure ... failure to accept of the EXISTENCE of Israel in the first place which continues today. 

 

Also consider about 20 percent of Israeli citizens are Arabs and it's well known the vast majority are fine with being Israelis in the context of the well publicized aims of Palestinian nationalists -- the totally RACIST goal of a Jew free state. 

 

To wit, consider the words of leftist Israeli Amoz Oz starting at 2:08:

 

Edited September 15, 2016 by Jingthing

[dexterm]

48 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

The subtext of the Israel demonization agenda, whether said explicitly or not, is that Israel never deserved to exist in the first place, and they can't wait to see the happy day (to them) when it no longer exists.

 

Let's consider that POV -- it's a hateful Jew hating POV. When Israel was established by the U.N. there was a plan for a Palestinian state by its side. The entire Arab and Muslim world rejected this ... invading Israel immediately. That's the root of the Palestinian failure ... failure to accept of the EXISTENCE of Israel in the first place which continues today. 

 

Also consider about 20 percent of Israeli citizens are Arabs and it's well known the vast majority are fine with being Israelis in the context of the well publicized aims of Palestinian nationalists -- the totally RACIST goal of a Jew free state. 

 

To wit, consider the words of leftist Israeli Amoz Oz starting at 2:08:

 

You are spot on in your first paragraph IMO ....with the addendum the racist supremacist Zionist* state of Israel does not deserve to exist and I hope that regime will one day end, when Israel becomes a true multi cultural, secular democracy. Nor would I call criticism of Israel demonization. Israel demonizes itself with its diabolical behavior.

 

[* defined as (and I think I am in the good company of the person who first coined the word)  those who believe in the free migration of Jews into Palestine based solely on their race/religion, while denying similar rights to Palestinians who were born there. ]

 

The rest of your post was the usual Zionist propaganda mythology that Israel the aggressor and occupier is somehow the victim.

 

The Amos Oz interview was interesting although I disagree with his opinion of BDS.

Edited September 15, 2016 by dexterm