Congressional report slams NSA leaker Edward Snowden

[thaihome]

36 minutes ago, sgtsabai said:

I wear that exact same ribbon, 1966/67. Snowden should have never had to go to HK. Snowden is a hero and those that would kill him or imprison him are the real traitors. Those that allowed the un-Constitutional spying revealed by him are the traitors. Keep GitMo open for those that really belong there! No people can be free when they are spied upon.

 

I would tend to agree if Snowden had stayed in the US and had his day in court like Ellsberg did (or case dismissed in his situation ). The problem with Snowden is after making his public disclosure on the NSA phone meta data gathering, he then took himself and his laptop, with lots of other classified data on it to use as a bargaining chip, off to Russia.

 

It's hard to make a hero out of him with that subsequent behavior. Rants about the danger to his life are just hyperbole.  If he is truly the patriotic hero, he should have stuck around and faced the consequences of his actions. Now he wants a pardon. Come back, go to court, and then ask for the pardon if you need to. Its hard for me not to characterize him as an opportunistic attention seeker.

 

 

TH 

 

[thaihome]

1 hour ago, sgtsabai said:

Unlike Ellsberg, I met him once at a Texas Tech Vietnam Symposium, he would have never had a fair trial, if one at all, no hyperbole. Times have changed since the 60/70's when we still had a functional Constitution and real judges. Many of us that spoke truth to the power in those days would be dead or disappeared into a supermax under today's government. There is no Supreme Court, much less a Justice William O. Douglas that freed me. Even then the gov't tried to kill some of us. No hyperbole, if you believe so you don't know much about the US government.

 

But, but... Ellsberg had his day in court and due to illegal activities by the prosecution, the charges were dismissed.  Not sure how you can say "he would have never had a fair trial". The trial was so fair, it basicly never took place.

 

Worth noting, Ellsberg's statement when he turned himself in to answer the charges against him

I felt that as an American citizen, as a responsible citizen, I could no longer cooperate in concealing this information from the American public. I did this clearly at my own jeopardy and I am prepared to answer to all the consequences of this decision.

 

Do you honestly believe that people are killed or disappear into supermax prisons in the US these days?

 I think you watch too many movies, Arnold and Sylvester in Escape Plan come to mind...?

 

It was a movie, not real....

TH 

[CaptHaddock]

12 hours ago, thaihome said:

 

I would tend to agree if Snowden had stayed in the US and had his day in court like Ellsberg did (or case dismissed in his situation ). The problem with Snowden is after making his public disclosure on the NSA phone meta data gathering, he then took himself and his laptop, with lots of other classified data on it to use as a bargaining chip, off to Russia.

 

It's hard to make a hero out of him with that subsequent behavior. Rants about the danger to his life are just hyperbole.  If he is truly the patriotic hero, he should have stuck around and faced the consequences of his actions. Now he wants a pardon. Come back, go to court, and then ask for the pardon if you need to. Its hard for me not to characterize him as an opportunistic attention seeker.

 

 

TH 

 

 

Ellsberg himself thinks that Snowden would not get a fair trial or be out on bail during his trial as Ellsberg was.  The country has changed in the last 45 years.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/30/daniel-ellsberg-snowden-fair-trial-kerry-espionage-act

 

 

[Srikcir]

8 minutes ago, CaptHaddock said:

Snowden would not get a fair trial

Even a trial by a jury of his peers or appeals?

 

9 minutes ago, CaptHaddock said:

be out on bail during his trial

Flight risk might be a consideration.

[CaptHaddock]

2 hours ago, Srikcir said:

Even a trial by a jury of his peers or appeals?

 

Flight risk might be a consideration.

 

Snowden would be treated like Chelsea Manning, subjected to the harshest possible conditions and jailed for the rest of his life.  He should be given a medal and lying scum like Keith Alexander thrown in jail for violating the rights of all Americans and lying about it to Congress. 

[craigt3365]

25 minutes ago, CaptHaddock said:

 

Snowden would be treated like Chelsea Manning, subjected to the harshest possible conditions and jailed for the rest of his life.  He should be given a medal and lying scum like Keith Alexander thrown in jail for violating the rights of all Americans and lying about it to Congress. 

That'd be great for Snowden.  He's a traitor.  Like the label or not, he fits the definition.  He should be jailed for violating the laws of our country.

[Scott]

A post violating Fair Use Policy has been removed.   You may only quote the first 3 lines and then a link to the remainder of the article.  

 

 

[Srikcir]

33 minutes ago, CaptHaddock said:

Snowden would be treated like Chelsea Manning

My post removed because it violated Fair Use Policy. To restate my comment so as to not quote more than the first 3 lines of a linked article:

 

So you abandon Ellsberg's comment that Snowden wouldn't get a fair trial. Such abandonment would be correct.

 

Ellsberg/Russo case did not go to a jury to decide guilt or innocence on all counts.¹ To paraphrase, the judge said he would dismiss the case in its entirety based largely on government misconduct in its investigation against the defendents that included missing government evidence. But without a jury verdict on each of the counts, the judge warned that only a judgment of each charge by a jury would dispose of all the issues before the court. The judge did indicate he would dismiss some of the charges if the case went to the jury but there would be sufficient charges remaining that would merit a jury decision.

 

The defendents chose not to proceed to the jury phase of the trial. Therefore, the legality of the defendents' theft and disclosure actions nor constitutionality of government surveillance was not addressed. Ellesberg decision to avoid a jury decision wasn't for fear of an unfair decision by the jury. Ellsberg did feel that an American jury would come to a good judgement for the benefit of the nation.

 

¹http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/big/0511.html

On another note, Manning was tried in a military court that has no jury. He pleaded guilty to almost half of the charges. Manning's trial would neither be instructive not analgous to a Snowden trial.

 

 

 

 

 

[geriatrickid]

17 hours ago, johnnywishbone said:

Snowden should have never left Hong Kong alive.
A total lack of control.
Weak.
I should be used to it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

If you expected  he USA to have murdered Snowden while he  was in a foreign country and protected by foreign powers, then you are unrealistic. Any attempt on his life would have resulted in US deaths, serious political recrimination and a major diplomatic crisis.  Murdering someone in  a foreign country where one is a guest, is none too bright.

 

The damage was already done by the time Snowden   landed in Hong Kong. He's not living a good life now and will never return to the USA or the west a free man. He most likely will never see his friends or family again. That's not much of a future.  My personal view is that he should be charged with treason and should stand  trial snd sufer the consequence..  That being said, it does not justify an illegal  killing particularly since there was no imminent threat.

The USA is still subject to laws that require due process. If you dislike it, repeal the US Constitution.

 

 

 

[Srikcir]

34 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

he should be charged with treason

Unfortunately for Snowden, there is no statute of limitation for treason. For his other alleged crimes the applicable statute of limitation ranges from 3-10 years from date of occurence.

[thaihome]

3 hours ago, CaptHaddock said:

 

Snowden would be treated like Chelsea Manning, subjected to the harshest possible conditions and jailed for the rest of his life.  He should be given a medal and lying scum like Keith Alexander thrown in jail for violating the rights of all Americans and lying about it to Congress. 

 

Manning's complaint about "harsh conditions"  in prison is they won't give her treatment for her self diagnosed gender dysphoria. 

 

To me, the issue with Snowden is what else, other then the disclosed phone data and email gathering,  did he take and who has he given it to. There is evidence he took much more then the power point slides that has been published. 

 

At the end of day, he can sit in Russia forever, but before he asks for a pardon, he needs to come back and stand trial first.  

 

I also think Alexander should have his day in court for possible perjury in testimony to Congress. I note you seem to have already convicted him. So much for his fair trial in your eyes.

 TH 

 

 

[thaihome]

34 minutes ago, sgtsabai said:

Zero evidence Snowden ever gave anything to a foreign government, zero, none, nada, zip....

 

UK intelligence agents have been moved because Russia and China have access to classified information which reveals how they operate, a senior government source has told the BBC.

According to the Sunday Times, Moscow and Beijing have deciphered documents stolen by whistleblower Edward Snowden.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-33125068

TH 

[derator01]

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