The Next Move On Foreign Land Ownership?

[dsfbrit]

I refused to take the risk even when all estate agents and lawyers stated it was common practice and fine. Fine for their business maybe, but REALLY not fine.

May I ask what method you eventually used to acquire your accommodation?

[Lazy Sod]

I'm in the same boat as the 1,000's of others who bought using a company. Like most of my friends in the same situation I'm adopting a wait-and-see attitude. It's the land of compromises, and so there may be some hope for us. To balance the doomsday scenario here are a few positive examples of what could happen.

1. They may have an amnesty for companies which have already bought land, especially if the companies own only a small house. By the way, this may make these companies sell at a premium in the future, like the foreign quota in condos.

2. They may amend the land code to allow foreign spouses to have some rights to the land/house.

3. They may amend the land code to allow foreign ownership up to (say) 1 Rai - unlikely I know, but it's possible.

4. Same as 3 but only if married to a Thai, or have Permanent Residence, or some other criteria such as minimum investment (hopefully lower than the current 40M).

Worst case I think is that we'd be forced to sell to a Thai within 1 year, those of us married to a Thai would probably sell it to the spouse, those not married to a Thai may be forced to sell at a loss.

Doomsday scenario is that they would simply confiscate the 1,000's of properties which would result in throwing the Thai spouses and Thai children onto the street. Unlikely I think/hope.

One other point, we are not just talking about ordinary Joes here, there are prominant and influential foreign businessmen, foreign politicians, and foreign celebrities who own villas in Thailand using a Company. The powers that be know this and will hopefully consider Thailand's image when deciding what to do next.

[thaigene2]

It's doubtful if buying a house in a company's name is against the law. What the Thai government seems to be doing is trying to change the law retroactively.

The big offenders will have sold on anyway.

No that's not my understanding. The law was quite specific. Nominee companies (nominating Thai shareholders to appear they were 'legitimate' shareholders) were never allowed. The issue, to my knowledge, was that this rule wasn't being enforced. Now it is.

How that effects people who got away with it in the past is the unanswered question (as Twix38 refers).

Will they try to go back and penalize every guy who lives in Chiang Mai with his Thai wife? Will they start scrutinizing annual returns of small companies with a foreign shareholder where the main asset seems to be a house/land? Your guess is as good as mine - but my guess is probably not because the Thai authorities don't have the capacity to do that (manpower). But the company route is now deadsville..and the property market for foreigners will probably head in that direction too (except maybe holiday condos in reosrt areas).

I remember as soon as this circular was issued by the authorities that one of the British senior managers at one of the big property agencies here in Bangkok said Thailand has killed the foreign property market. He went back to the UK. Many scoffed at that as an over-reaction. Not me.

[JimmyGreaves]

I'm in the same boat as the 1,000's of others who bought using a company. Like most of my friends in the same situation I'm adopting a wait-and-see attitude. It's the land of compromises, and so there may be some hope for us. To balance the doomsday scenario here are a few positive examples of what could happen.

1. They may have an amnesty for companies which have already bought land, especially if the companies own only a small house. By the way, this may make these companies sell at a premium in the future, like the foreign quota in condos.

2. They may amend the land code to allow foreign spouses to have some rights to the land/house.

3. They may amend the land code to allow foreign ownership up to (say) 1 Rai - unlikely I know, but it's possible.

4. Same as 3 but only if married to a Thai, or have Permanent Residence, or some other criteria such as minimum investment (hopefully lower than the current 40M).

Worst case I think is that we'd be forced to sell to a Thai within 1 year, those of us married to a Thai would probably sell it to the spouse, those not married to a Thai may be forced to sell at a loss.

Doomsday scenario is that they would simply confiscate the 1,000's of properties which would result in throwing the Thai spouses and Thai children onto the street. Unlikely I think/hope.

One other point, we are not just talking about ordinary Joes here, there are prominant and influential foreign businessmen, foreign politicians, and foreign celebrities who own villas in Thailand using a Company. The powers that be know this and will hopefully consider Thailand's image when deciding what to do next.

Good summary of the potential consequences LS. Maybe some of the 'I told you so merchants' will now get back to the bar and drink it dry!

[Mobi]

Good summary of the situation Lazy Sod.

You could be right on not wanting to upset the rich and famous, but I doubt it. I don't think these guys give a toss who they upset or what is written about them.

I reckon many would get a kick out of it - the more famous the better!

thaigene2, as someone pointed out to me some time ago, it wouldn't take much man power to investigate these "farang owend/nominee" companies. All they need to do is issue a standard letter and send it to the registered address of each company requesting that all Thai shareholders provide documentaray proof of their assets, proof of the origin of cash invested in the shares etc. in a similar way to the current requirement for new companies with foreign shareholding. The onus would be on the company's shareholders to do all the work - not the authorities.

Not too hard to do, methinks.

BTW What's the current thinking on all these guys who are buying land with companies with 100% Thai shareholders and then transferring shares to farangs after the land is bought/transferred? A similar thing is being done when the houses are sold, except all they do is change the farang name on the share register - i.e the shares in the company are sold to the new farang owner. They also avoid paying land tax.

My lawyer advised that this is very dogy indeed but apparently this practise is now widespread - certainly in Pattaya; yet you hear very little about this on the web - or anywhere - it's almost as if they know what they are doing is illegal.

Edited December 9, 2006 by Mobi D'Ark

[thaigene2]

2. They may amend the land code to allow foreign spouses to have some rights to the land/house.

Let's hope they go for number 2. To me it makes perfect sense. The foreigner will never have full control or ownership of the land. They could even say ownership of the title deed must indicate it is split 51% to 49% in favour of the Thai spouse. They could even limit size of property to one-rai or whatever and/or say it's a one-time offer. You cannot own more than one place this way.

Seems pretty simple, everyone is happy. You divorce etc, the courts would need to respect that the property is majority owned by a Thai. No one (e.g. Thais) loses face. Sabai-sabai.

[OlRedEyes]

I am pretty fortunate in that I have always refused to 'buy' any property or even start a business here. I do sympathise with those that have tried to settle here and find that it is impossible to be certain of their status in this country into the future. Most invested in good faith. Many invested after being assured by other expats that things will be ok.

One of the problems with living here is that one tends to forget good principles of business and investment learned in the west; long-term planning, risk management, secure legal environment etc.

Many, many Thais have proudly explained their love of going 'zig-zag' to me through the years - taking the line of least resistance in achieving short-term gain. This is an inherent part of Thai culture, reflected in the ambiguity and quick-change in their laws and the corruption associated with it. Even the driving style reflects it. Hence the rule - never bring into Thailand what you are not willing to lose. I believe this applies to even money lying in a Thai bank. Who knows when this banking system could crash, or a law is imposed to 'temporarily' prevent you from taking it out again.

One thing that is striking in those translated Thai posts is the total lack of even one post stating an opposing view. This is unnatural in any free society. And it is dangerous.

I have no investments here, and am on a retirement visa. But I am certainly thinking of leaving. I will be keeping a close watch on the trend that has been showing for quite awhile now.

[Gary A]

I am pretty fortunate in that I have always refused to 'buy' any property or even start a business here. I do sympathise with those that have tried to settle here and find that it is impossible to be certain of their status in this country into the future. Most invested in good faith. Many invested after being assured by other expats that things will be ok.

One of the problems with living here is that one tends to forget good principles of business and investment learned in the west; long-term planning, risk management, secure legal environment etc.

Many, many Thais have proudly explained their love of going 'zig-zag' to me through the years - taking the line of least resistance in achieving short-term gain. This is an inherent part of Thai culture, reflected in the ambiguity and quick-change in their laws and the corruption associated with it. Even the driving style reflects it. Hence the rule - never bring into Thailand what you are not willing to lose. I believe this applies to even money lying in a Thai bank. Who knows when this banking system could crash, or a law is imposed to 'temporarily' prevent you from taking it out again.

One thing that is striking in those translated Thai posts is the total lack of even one post stating an opposing view. This is unnatural in any free society. And it is dangerous.

I have no investments here, and am on a retirement visa. But I am certainly thinking of leaving. I will be keeping a close watch on the trend that has been showing for quite awhile now.

Good post. I live here and have lived here for many years. I'm in a situation where quite by accident I found a good woman who happily puts up with me. That was after I had given up on EVER getting married again. I love my Thai wife and hopefully things will continue to go well for us.

That said, I definitely have problems thinking about the direction the country is headed. I too have a retirement visa. I wholeheartedly agree with the philosophy of NOT spending more than you can afford to walk away from. I too am building an exit plan. Hopefully if things go from bad to worse, she will be able go with me. I do own a freehold condo in MY name and bought it before we married. I certainly don't plan to lose it but if I do, I won't miss any meals.

[Mobi]

I have no investments here, and am on a retirement visa. But I am certainly thinking of leaving. I will be keeping a close watch on the trend that has been showing for quite awhile now.

Well, I have a house here and my 800k waiting to renew my retirement visa - but like you I have certainly wound into my mind the idea of having to leave one day.

Very sad, but the invetablility of it draws ever closer.

I'm really no longer completely happpy and relaxed in a country where such are large percentage of the population resents my presence.

[dsfbrit]

I have no investments here, and am on a retirement visa. But I am certainly thinking of leaving. I will be keeping a close watch on the trend that has been showing for quite awhile now.

I'm really no longer completely happpy and relaxed in a country where such are large percentage of the population resents my presence.

Mobi, OlredEyes dont panic... Mobi, a large percentage of the population dont resent you at all.

There are some people in power who may not like some of the things they see.

Mind you a lot/some of them are a part of the real estate business in various forms - so I suspect they are ambivalent to this farang property ownership issue as well.

The trouble is if you read TV forum too often you can get a completely twisted view of Thailand.

Lets face it, at our age (I am 52) we have had all kinds of problems thrown at us and we have overcome them all.

We will overcome these and future problems as well.

As for the feedback from some Thais (thanks for doing that BKK90210), its interesting but hardly conclusive.

Lets face it, like most forum, the silent majority dont usually say anything at all. What do the majority of Thais think, especially those Thais that are receiving the monetary benefits of having a farang in the family?

If you look at TV you will sometimes see that hundreds of peope are reading a thread, but only a small percentage actually post anything

Most Thais dont have access to a computer, let alone the desire to post a comment about farang.

Hey I know my wifes family eagerly await the monthly allowance I send them! Ask them what they think of farang land ownership and they will say - dont care.

So get all this in perspective and start enjoying Thailand again.

I haven't logged onto TV for a while - think I will give it 'a miss' again until there is some solid news

about any new laws.

Then will be the time to develop a plan to find the best solution - just like people of our age have successfully done with every problem we have had in our lives up until now!

Have a Merry Xmas.

Edited December 9, 2006 by dsfbrit

[mjfort]

I have a friend trying to unload 4 houses in Pattaya, he's finding it impossible at the moment.

I also know guys that are desperate to sell. Mission impossible

The Thais are often portrayed as stupid by many on this forum, yet once again it turns out to be the Farang that has been stupid.

The Thais have sold land at a very high price, the Thai builders have built houses of a dubious quality and charged high prices, the Thai lawyers and accountants have grown rich parting farangs with millions of baht for a worthless scrap of paper.

Now Farangs are desperate to sell and will accept another loss to sell to a Thai national.

Thais stupid.........?

I don't think so.

I dont think anyone has said that Thais are stupid from what i have read. What i see is peoples frustration of being part of a real estate economy that is threating collapse. You seem to gloat that now the Thai's have taken the Farangs money, they can just leave! What about all the billions and billions that will not be made now. The money that WILL NOT be going to he Thais now. The money that is already has been made, has been spent! There is no more. So now you are happy there will be no more money coming? this seems an odd argument. I myself was in the process of looking for a country to have a retirement. A place where i would take my legitimate earned money. A place where i would not be a burden of social services. Now that place is Costa Rica. As much as i enjoyed and wanted to spend my money in Thailand, it is much too risky. Your right the Thais are not stupid, they are just shortsighted. The dont see the billions that would have made it into the economy. Because the Thai that sold the land at high prices then bough a car, then built a nice house for himself, and he hired the carpenter who bought the television from the shop owner , ect..... When no more money is coming it, it will hurt everyone, and no one gains from this.

W

[bkkandrew]

I have a friend trying to unload 4 houses in Pattaya, he's finding it impossible at the moment.

I also know guys that are desperate to sell. Mission impossible

The Thais are often portrayed as stupid by many on this forum, yet once again it turns out to be the Farang that has been stupid.

The Thais have sold land at a very high price, the Thai builders have built houses of a dubious quality and charged high prices, the Thai lawyers and accountants have grown rich parting farangs with millions of baht for a worthless scrap of paper.

Now Farangs are desperate to sell and will accept another loss to sell to a Thai national.

Thais stupid.........?

I don't think so.

I dont think anyone has said that Thais are stupid from what i have read. What i see is peoples frustration of being part of a real estate economy that is threating collapse. You seem to gloat that now the Thai's have taken the Farangs money, they can just leave! What about all the billions and billions that will not be made now. The money that WILL NOT be going to he Thais now. The money that is already has been made, has been spent! There is no more. So now you are happy there will be no more money coming? this seems an odd argument. I myself was in the process of looking for a country to have a retirement. A place where i would take my legitimate earned money. A place where i would not be a burden of social services. Now that place is Costa Rica. As much as i enjoyed and wanted to spend my money in Thailand, it is much too risky. Your right the Thais are not stupid, they are just shortsighted. The dont see the billions that would have made it into the economy. Because the Thai that sold the land at high prices then bough a car, then built a nice house for himself, and he hired the carpenter who bought the television from the shop owner , ect..... When no more money is coming it, it will hurt everyone, and no one gains from this.

W

Yes - the age old story. A Thai would rather have B100 today than B1000 tomorrow. Therefore likely scenario is nick the property and to hel_l with the reprocussions..

[grtaylor]

All of this reads very bad, but, I wonder how representative it is. What would the average Thai make of many of the comments/rants about them here on TV if they had them translated into Thai!

G

OK I did my best, my thai is passable and may not be perfect,....but understandable same same

or you can get a real thai to do this as second opinion

Here are what the thais had to say about this article - all 54 feedbacks

1-From Sayamlers

If I have additional info or anything else to report, what authority should I contact?

2- From Archakorn-kam-chad

We should also investigate more into as where these moneies are coming from. These funds could be the illegal monies, for example from….

Foreign tax evasion money…and investing these monies in thailand hoping to avoid paying taxes,

or Illigal money laundering schemes,

or wanting to hide these monies in thailand from their own govt for some reasons

or from brokering /or flipping thai realestate to other foreigners which is the illegal occupation in thailand as foreigner.

3- From KaLokKaLa

This is the old news! Everyone knew about it long time ago but no one and especially the land dept wants to do anything about it, I don’t know why.

4- From sj_acc

The law should also go after those thai nominees and there should be a stiff/heavy penalty for those thai nominees also. Shame on them!

5- From vn

Wow….don’t tell me they had just found this out?

6- From 123

Oh…. And don’t forget Krabi also, we have sooooo many willing thais helping farangs there too!

7- From เกลียดสิงคโปร์

Please investigate those lawyers and thai nominees in Pattaya also

These people got hired and are acting as a front owner of the property in Pattaya ….for many Singaporeans.

8- From Kon- Phuket

Singaporeans came, bought, and resold just about every available lands on the island, especially around the lagoon area and had already taken all those profits back to their homeland! However I think they are still holding many mountain properties for building future resorts! Come and take a look for yourself, if you don’t believe me!

9- From Panda

I hope this time they(the govt) are doing it for real!...w/ much blessings from me

10- From ps_suda

You should also check into the lady named “Sudalat”, she seems to owned vast amount of property in Phuket (Karon beach area), and Samui. Something smells here.

11- From Mukomna

I totally agree on giving very stiff penalty for those fake thai nominees, and also confiscating everything they have!.....house, car, or whatever!

12-

I know many farangs had set up a fake company for the purpose of land/house dealing and this is wrong and illegal.

But my questions are….

1) How did they bring that large sum into the country in the first place?, Didn’t the bank of Thailand check for its purpose?

2) Do they ever take these profit monies out of Thailand and how? Isn’t this being such a large sum would raise a red flag for the bank of Thailand or thai govt?

I think it’s about time for the investigation before we ended up loosing everything to the farangs.

-----------------------------------

13- From Ban Hong

Something something….. about Thaksin and his home town/birth place @SunKumpang

14- From Dee

Have they(the govt) just wake up? They’re as slow as a kwai, by now the falangs probably have brought up everything already!

15- From CEO mai-ru-si

Looks like these foreigners are wanting to conquer and divide our thailand. Should I be worry about my land too?, or just simply drop our resistance and give it to them at cost? Hmm..I can also dig a canal for free, as an added/extra bonus too.

16- From Rummadee

Oh don’t think/worry too much. So let them spend their money buying up these properties, at the end we will just simply take them back, because according to the law every talangInch belong only to the thai, our laws will protect us. They can just kiss their 10 mil baths goodbye.

17- From Because thai doesn’t love each other

What is your point of reporting this, don’t you have anything else better to do? Why don’t you just go back and report on “How to take care your old furnitures” instead or something that will be more useful to us as readers!

18- From Carjacked @every stop

I don’t very care about the falangs stealing from the thais, they are the minority here. But I am more concern on how many thais are stealing from our own thais, and there are plenty of these cases.

20-

If the govt havn’t found the solutions how to get these lands back by now, then forget it. Go ahead and let them owned everything we have, I will just simply rent it from them!

21-

I want to see every lawbreakers go to jail or get death panalty

You forgot to report on Phuket – Lagoona resort! 5000rais in the hands of Singaporean with thai nominees + members from Thanksin family!

22- From Nae-non

Are you sure we should go after those nominees, it will be such a big task w/ only negative results you know?

If we’re going to investigate then we should net them over the entire country, not just only in those major tourist areas. Be careful many thais will be losing their jobs also due to the crackdown and now we all have to be working for the Laos, Khamere, Burmese, Malay and Singaporean!

23-

Thaksin who just loved to cheat left and right to get what he wants

Our kings with the people of Thailand have been doing everything we could to preserving the unity and our lands all these times. Then came Thaksin who had used his powers & priviledges and changed the laws to suit his needs and for him and his clan benefits. He’s so greedy and doesn’t know enough is enough or when to stop. His ultimate goal to happiness is having money and lots of it, even if he has to sell himself to the devil or give away part of Thailand to the foreigners, so be it!

24- From Por-chor-chor

Thanks you “square face”, he’s the root cause of this problem!

And why are we still keeping those officials responsible for this task on the job? What a waste of our tax baths?

25- From Thailand is belong to the thais only

I’m blaming it on our own “greedy thai lawyers”! and those foreign realtors who are doing a good job in selling out our lands. It’s our duty as a thai to do everything we could to safegard our country. Please point out and petition the case to the land dept., we need to get these lands back from them!

26- From Kon Hua Hin

Besides Hua Hin, there are also problem in nearby area such as Pranburi, Sam Roiyod, and Cha-Am.......There are so many foreign real estate companies who came, and set up the thai front company for the purpose of buying and developing lands and selling them to other unsuspected foreigners. We have huge problem of escalating land price for the locals who in many cases could not effort to even live in their own hometown where they’re born. The locals are very mad about this.

27- From คนอยู่ในสังคม

also in Tumbon – Kao Keaw, moo 2, the location of the Marina Boat Lagoon – problem with public land encroachment.

28- From KaoLam

What about Chonburi?....sooo many big, fancy, and expensive developments built specially for farangs and Japaneses ….with the thai front company set up for their thai mistress to live in.

29- From สักวัน...กรูจะเอาคืนจากพวกเมิงบ้าง

If the govt and the laws couldn’t do anything in getting our lands back, then let’s start our own little war and uprising in order to drive these foreigners out of Thailand ourselves!

Just name the time and the place….I will be there!

30- From jack

Man!....I kept getting sms spam messages from 01567128x/tor chor 3598….please check them out for me, will you?

31-

Please come to Phuket and check out around the Lagona Rayan(royal?) Kumla also

32- From jack

sms spam again!....about something something

33- From เค จี บี กับทักษิณใครสมควรตายมากกว่ากัน

On tv right now ……Somebody in UK just died and it’s not Thaksin…bummer!

34- From อย่าเขิน

Something about….How come we don’t have any capable govt looking after us except the news agency?

35- From Fish is dumb

Is this news for real, this time?

36- From นายราชการนอกแถว

our current set up laws for business are benefiting foreigners too much and have too many loopholes for ill used

37- From ff_bear

This is the long overdue case. I guess everybody was afraid to speak out during the Thaksin regime.

38- From Kor book

The biggest scheme of them all has to be…”The Peak” in Samui,…seems the business as usual. These foreigner seems not too afraid of the laws or thai govt!....actually they are flaunting it in the open!

39- From ขออบอก

In Samui, something/problem about the chanote scheme

ที่สมุย- ส.ค “สามารถงอกเป็นโฉนดได้มากกว่าที่ระบุจำนวนไม่น้อยกว่า 4 เท่าของตัวเลขที่ระบุไว้จริง”

40- From ขออบอก

Yes, in Samui…they are doing it all with nominees!

41- From Koh Samui and laws

In Samui….The govt should seriously come and investigate “Pensitand laws”. The foreigners and the lawyers are in bed together for the sake of buying the property.

42- From @@@@

You all are dreaming! If they want to do this crackdown, they should have done this long time ago!

43- From ทรราชใหม่

Same same old business dealing, nothing has changed since the beginning of Thaksin era

44-from Changmai

I say….investigate the lawyers!

The normal procedure is like this….A farang marries a thai women, then this farang will ask the lawyer to set up the front company in order to retain control over the land and his fancy house. This is a normal request/practice of many farangs and what happening here in Phuket.

45- From ถามลูกไอ้เลิศคนขายยาเสพติด

In Samui, Phaghan too!.... I’m so dumbfounded over this!

46- From

We should be investigating a fake marriage between a foreigner with thai partner also

47- From ถามลูกไอ้เลิศคนขายยาเสพติด

Thaksin and his clan are selling off our national treasure – our land – to the foreigners without any remorse as if they have every rights to do so.

48- From ง้วง

Are you sure the govt will follow this case through the end, or just blah blah blah again?

49- From "ถึงเวลาเอาจริงได้แล้ว" !

I for one would love to ask the govt of… how did we got ourselves into this mess if they were doing their job right in the first place. I think we should come up with the solutions and penalties for these fake front companies as soon as possible, so we can get the case moving, instead of a study and more study needed to be done. It may take forever and thus wasting of our precious times again.

These new set of solutions may not be perfect at first, it’s ok, we can always add or subtract as the times gone by. So let’s get going now! We all want to see these cases go to the supreme court asap and televise on tv so everyone can see.

50- From ข้าวไกลนา

I used to see on tv involving the foreigners who some

have set up the business in Phuket,

owned restaurants

owned boxing school

some as real estate agents

So I asked some of them and they all had one common answer, my life is in Thailand, I love Thailand and do not plan to go back, Phuket is like a paradise to me, good whether, smiling thais, so I’m very happy here because I can always find something to smile and laugh about, etc.

I had doubt at that time, how come a farang can be a realtor in Thailand or how come many farangs can buy houses here. Now I know – the fake company set up!

51- From นายยุทธ

I feel bad for the govt also. It’s so hard to do their job. For example

If they come down hard on these companies, then someone will complain they are too harsh, mean, or unreasonable, or they’re working too slow in getting the job done, etc.

I think it’s our human nature to complaining on just about anything.

52- From ตามล่า

Something about backhanded business dealings have been going on involving Thaksin in the area of Khonkhen and other major cities also. He and his clan ‘re trying to squeeze out the local businessmen from doing the business by using coarsing means.

53- From Bert Class Q

We can not let this go to waste, this is not right. Many of these foreigners came to Thailand as tourist and shouldn’t be allowed to buy the land using company route while on tourist visa!

54- From pim Rx

I think this is just a preliminary preparation statement for what to come next!

[Gary A]

I was talking with my wife regarding BKK90210 translation. She was actually somewhat amused and told me that Thai men ARE jealous because farangs normally have much more money than they do AND it is becoming more common for Thai ladies to tell Thai men that they are looking for a farang husband.

She went on to say that most farang men will provide for their wives BEFORE they blow the rest of their money on booze and other women. In other words we are considered much more dependable. (YES, Thai women expect a man to fool around). Many Thai men, especially in this area will drink until they are broke, than go to work to earn more money. Their wives and children are left to fend for themselves while the husband is out and about boozing and sometimes gone for days at a time.

Since most politicians are men, I'm not going to abandon my escape plan.

Edited December 10, 2006 by Gary A

[Tolley]

I was talking with my wife regarding BKK90210 translation. She was actually somewhat amused and told me that Thai men ARE jealous because farangs normally have much more money than they do AND it is becoming more common for Thai ladies to tell Thai men that they are looking for a farang husband.

She went on to say that most farang men will provide for their wives BEFORE they blow the rest of their money on booze and other women. In other words we are considered much more dependable. (YES, Thai women expect a man to fool around). Many Thai men, especially in this area will drink until they are broke, than go to work to earn more money. Their wives and children are left to fend for themselves while the husband is out and about boozing and sometimes gone for days at a time.

Since most politicians are men, I'm not going to abandon my escape plan.

I have heard a lot of Thai women say the same thing but many of them still like to have Thai boyfriends on the side.

Believe what a Thai women tells you at your own peril.

[mpdkorat]

I just read the article and it says (I think)

As of today (24 Nov.), the special justice dept working along with the provincial official of Prachuap Khiri Khan are now officially investigating and going after any company that has at least 1 forienger as a shareholder in it that set up for the purpose of owning land. They will try to close it and take the land back.

The article also said, they're starting in Huahin first before going after all other major tourist areas.

Thanks to both you and GuestHouse. Anyone else still want to suggest this is just fear mongering?? Okay -- anyone else want to buy a house through setting up a company? Bet there are a few for sale now

As some of you know. I got rid of my company a few months ago, transferred the house to my wife, and got a lifetime ufustruct on the property.

Mobi I am interested why you went for the usefruct instead of the 30 year lease option. As I understand it, the Usefruct has not been tested through the supreme court yet, as has the 30 year lease. I also understand that the usefruct was set up to assist poor farmers. Allowing foriegners to gain control of land useing a usefruct might not be as strong as you think, as what you have done is not within the spirit of the law. BTW I'm interested in using a usefruct.

[Mobi]

Mobi I am interested why you went for the usefruct instead of the 30 year lease option. As I understand it, the Usefruct has not been tested through the supreme court yet, as has the 30 year lease. I also understand that the usefruct was set up to assist poor farmers. Allowing foriegners to gain control of land useing a usefruct might not be as strong as you think, as what you have done is not within the spirit of the law. BTW I'm interested in using a usefruct.

Because my lawyer advised that it would be much better and stronger than a 30 year lease. Firstly, it is for life, and although there is no way I can live for 30 years, it is nevertheless better for that. The Ufustruct gives me total control of my land and house, and I can do with it how I wish until I die. I can even rent it out to third party on a 30 year lease. I also believe that a wife granting a ufustruct to her husband is within the 'spirit' of the ufustruct tradition.

There are other reasons which the lawyer can better explain.

I was quite happy to do the lease, but was strongly advised to go the ufustruct route.

By the way, my earlier post might have sounded like gloom and doom, but my general feeling is that the balance of probability is that I will be able to stay in Thailand until I die. But that doesn't mean that I should close my eyes to what is going on around me with the land crackdowns, visa crackdowns, and the general nationalistic propaganda that is fed to the Thai people.

Sure, there are a lot of Thais that benefit from the farang dollar, but it seems to be a bit like the NIMBY attitude in the west. It's OK for individual families to receive and benefit from farang money, but if you ask for their opinion, many of will be just as nationalistic and anti- foreigner as those who don't benefit..

I don't lie in bed worrying about it. I just don't dismiss it, and quietly consider other options in the event that Thailand become too hot to handle.

[mpdkorat]

Yes I like the look of a usefruct, but I'm still a little concerned that if one of these contracts is ever seriously challange in the supreme court, as I'm not quite so convinced that a foriegner using this form of land control is in the spirit of the law. Only time can tell

[scotsman]

I also went for a usefruct in october and I can tell you that I did not get one for life they would only give me 30 years. I could have told my solicitors to fight for my right to a life time usefruct, becase there is nothing in thai law that says a farang cant have one. But it would have been more time & money to sort it out and 30 years is enough for me.Its only in pattaya that the land depatment make it so difficult to get a usefruct so it must be something good for us as they dont want you to have it. I dont think its against the spirt of the law and if someone wants to try and take it to a supreme court to test it out will have to find a lot of money to pay for solicitors for what they may lose.

[mpdkorat]

I also went for a usefruct in october and I can tell you that I did not get one for life they would only give me 30 years. I could have told my solicitors to fight for my right to a life time usefruct, becase there is nothing in thai law that says a farang cant have one. But it would have been more time & money to sort it out and 30 years is enough for me.Its only in pattaya that the land depatment make it so difficult to get a usefruct so it must be something good for us as they dont want you to have it. I dont think its against the spirt of the law and if someone wants to try and take it to a supreme court to test it out will have to find a lot of money to pay for solicitors for what they may lose.

I will go the usefruct way, what the hel_l its only another house to lose. Interesting though, they would only give you 30 years.

[Gary A]

My question is how the usefruct would protect you in case of a divorce. I originally understood that that document was to protect you in case of your wife's death. What if she refuses to move if you do get a divorce?

[Mobi]

Yes, the guy at Pattaya Land Office wnated to give me a 30 year Ufustruct too. My lawyer was outraged as he said it is impossible to do such a thing - ufustructs can only be for life. They contacted someone high up at the land office in Bangkok who confirmed that the guy in Pattaya was "off with the fairies" and was definitely wrong. However they refuse to intervene - loss of face and all that.

To cut a long story short, I agreed to do a 30 year ufustruct ( with the tax calculated on 30 years), but by the time we had agreed all that the cashier had closed up shop and we had to go back the next week.

My lawyer wasn't gving up that easily, so more representations were made, and more money changed hands (my money) and when I went back the following week a lifetime ufustruct had been agreed. Ironically the tax on the revised document ahad been reduced as they decided I wouldn't live 30 years.

This business about divorcing your wife is an unknown. My lawyer inissts I am completely safe, but others in this forum have different views. Let's hope I never have to put it to the test.

[bangkokrick]

Yes, the guy at Pattaya Land Office wnated to give me a 30 year Ufustruct too. My lawyer was outraged as he said it is impossible to do such a thing - ufustructs can only be for life. They contacted someone high up at the land office in Bangkok who confirmed that the guy in Pattaya was "off with the fairies" and was definitely wrong. However they refuse to intervene - loss of face and all that.

To cut a long story short, I agreed to do a 30 year ufustruct ( with the tax calculated on 30 years), but by the time we had agreed all that the cashier had closed up shop and we had to go back the next week.

My lawyer wasn't gving up that easily, so more representations were made, and more money changed hands (my money) and when I went back the following week a lifetime ufustruct had been agreed. Ironically the tax on the revised document ahad been reduced as they decided I wouldn't live 30 years.

This business about divorcing your wife is an unknown. My lawyer inissts I am completely safe, but others in this forum have different views. Let's hope I never have to put it to the test.

Hi Mobi,

I would like to sincerely thank you and all of the other people that have commented on this post. I have been staying in Thailand for the last 7 years. I recently got married, sold my house in the UK and had every intention of buying a house here in the New Year. I got the same advice as many others 'buying a house is no problem just open a company'. Many of my friends are long term stayers in Thailand and they have bought property under the company scheme, so i accepted their advice. I honestly knew nothing about this being an illegal way to go about things, so this is all news to me. Then again i only found out about the changes to the visa regulations 4 days before they took effect. I am now an avid reader of this forum, although it took me longer to read this thread than it did to read the 'Da Vinci Code'. Thanks again.

Cheers, Rick.

[LoveDaBlues]

Mobi, you seem to be up on the 'usefruct' and 'lease' options.

Which option is cheaper? I'm 50 and the usefruct might be better for me rather than the 30 year lease. With a little luck I might make it past 80 haha.

Thanks, LDB.

[Thailand Tiger]

I'm still in the infancy stage of setting up my life in Thailand and a big part of that has been considering my options for a place to call home. I'd be happy to rent a nice house longterm, but all of the properties I've found are rubbish. It seems the only nice places are those that have been built as someones dream home and are therefore not for lease. If a Thai person wanted a longterm investment, all they'd have to do is build what I want and I'd be happy to commit to a long term lease.

I've had to resign myself to having to build a place myself in order to get what I want. If I can't find a way to ensure that I can live in my own home, then I simply won't be able to do it. I'm also not prepared to live in a country where I can't feel secure in my own home (and I mean "home", not "house"...I don't need to have my name on a deed, but I do need to know that I'm not going to be kicked out tomorrow). If I can't have a stable place to live here, then I'm simply going to have to pick another country...not a nice prospect considering the long and involved thought processes that went on to get to here.

[Filer]

Thailand Tiger

My situation is similar. Spent 25 years deciding on Thailand as without doubt the ideal place in SE Asia to retire. Bought some land with sea view. Designed the ideal house with a local architect. Talking to bulders and project managers (not easy, given the well-known problems of cost and local build quality, but probably achievable in the end) ------ and now all this!

I'm looking seriously now at selling my land and going to my plan "B". This is to do the same thing in Penang, Malaysia, which I know well and where the Malaysian government has a very clearly documented and user-friendly policy for retirees (hassle-free long-term visa, freehold property ownership, clear tax situation, etc) and openly welcomes them.

Although my Thailand venture is in relatively flexible and liberal Phuket, I am not optimistic that the Thai authorities will be able to restore the fragile balance of rules and rule-interpretation which existed before May this year (foreigners working, retiring, holding property etc) and which allowed many of us to see Thailand as a good long-term place for a foreigner to stay. I suspect that we're in for a long period of uncertainty until some new balance evolves in how the various rules are interpreted and applied. Knowing how things work in Thailand and how the new government has many other more pressing priorities, I simply don't see anybody being able quickly to clean up the various present messy situations relating to foreigners.

[BKK90210]

The saga cont...... Chapter 2 - Public land encroachment

Ok just pick up another article today from one of the thai newspaper

While the company ownership investigations are still going on & off,… then off & on again at a regular basis ,

Right now the real meaner & leaner one, some of you should be watching out for, is seem to be “the national park service under the dept of forestry”. They are going after all public land encroachment cases. These guys are real fast and mean, and they just had finished up 40 cases, w/ 8 cases are still pending – on Samet island (Rayong).

They’re also currently working on HuaHin area, ….and just starting in Phuket (around Chalong area first – all the importance people, from the governor to all the way down to puyaibaan, are still in the meeting in Phuket and should have more details coming out in 2 more weeks).

The penalties on the average (based on Samet island cases) are

- say good bye to your land + 1-2 yrs in jail + approx 25,000 bths fine.

They will come back to Ko Chang later, it’s too messy out there also.

Ok if some of you have any doubts that your land might be belong to the national park, don’t go and check with the land dept , but try to recheck your property location with the national park service first – they should have the area map.

According to the article (from thai newspaper), they seem to be going hot after the uphill, and on the mountain areas.

Check your chanote (fake or not), especially if you have a home on the uphill and mountain area. If it’s a fake chanote,… You won’t have time to do anything or to dispose the property, once you have received “the violation notice letter” from them.

These guys from the national park service.....don't want any future cases dragging on far too long like 16 yrs court cases for those on Samet islands. So this time involving future cases...they will try to be fast and decisive, they said.

I’m just translating all these from the thai newspaper. If anyone wants the link I will try to do it, but right now I don't know how.

For more details of those cases on Samet island, please check with the Rayong provincial court.

I’m sure Samui will be a major headache for them too.

Good luck everyone

Edited December 13, 2006 by BKK90210

[Geppis72]

The saga cont...... Chapter 2 - Public land encroachment

Ok just pick up another article today from one of the thai newspaper

While the company ownership investigations are still going on & off,… then off & on again at a regular basis ,

Right now the real meaner & leaner one, some of you should be watching out for, is seem to be “the national park service under the dept of forestry”. They are going after all public land encroachment cases. These guys are real fast and mean, and they just had finished up 40 cases, w/ 8 cases are still pending – on Samet island (Rayong).

They’re also currently working on HuaHin area, ….and just starting in Phuket (around Chalong area first – all the importance people, from the governor to all the way down to puyaibaan, are still in the meeting in Phuket and should have more details coming out in 2 more weeks).

The penalties on the average (based on Samet island cases) are

- say good bye to your land + 1-2 yrs in jail + approx 25,000 bths fine.

They will come back to Ko Chang later, it’s too messy out there also.

Ok if some of you have any doubts that your land might be belong to the national park, don’t go and check with the land dept , but try to recheck your property location with the national park service first – they should have the area map.

According to the article (from thai newspaper), they seem to be going hot after the uphill, and on the mountain areas.

Check your chanote (fake or not), especially if you have a home on the uphill and mountain area. If it’s a fake chanote,… You won’t have time to do anything or to dispose the property, once you have received “the violation notice letter” from them.

These guys from the national park service.....don't want any future cases dragging on far too long like 16 yrs court cases for those on Samet islands. So this time involving future cases...they will try to be fast and decisive, they said.

I’m just translating all these from the thai newspaper. If anyone wants the link I will try to do it, but right now I don't know how.

For more details of those cases on Samet island, please check with the Rayong provincial court.

I’m sure Samui will be a major headache for them too.

Good luck everyone

Tks for the Article,

not so sure about Samui, at least Samui has already in place it's own public map with land specifications and possible use of it, still a step forward.

Bye

[churchill]

The saga cont...... Chapter 2 - Public land encroachment

Ok just pick up another article today from one of the thai newspaper

While the company ownership investigations are still going on & off,… then off & on again at a regular basis ,

Right now the real meaner & leaner one, some of you should be watching out for, is seem to be “the national park service under the dept of forestry”. They are going after all public land encroachment cases. These guys are real fast and mean, and they just had finished up 40 cases, w/ 8 cases are still pending – on Samet island (Rayong).

They’re also currently working on HuaHin area, ….and just starting in Phuket (around Chalong area first – all the importance people, from the governor to all the way down to puyaibaan, are still in the meeting in Phuket and should have more details coming out in 2 more weeks).

The penalties on the average (based on Samet island cases) are

- say good bye to your land + 1-2 yrs in jail + approx 25,000 bths fine.

They will come back to Ko Chang later, it’s too messy out there also.

Ok if some of you have any doubts that your land might be belong to the national park, don’t go and check with the land dept , but try to recheck your property location with the national park service first – they should have the area map.

According to the article (from thai newspaper), they seem to be going hot after the uphill, and on the mountain areas.

Check your chanote (fake or not), especially if you have a home on the uphill and mountain area. If it’s a fake chanote,… You won’t have time to do anything or to dispose the property, once you have received “the violation notice letter” from them.

These guys from the national park service.....don't want any future cases dragging on far too long like 16 yrs court cases for those on Samet islands. So this time involving future cases...they will try to be fast and decisive, they said.

I’m just translating all these from the thai newspaper. If anyone wants the link I will try to do it, but right now I don't know how.

For more details of those cases on Samet island, please check with the Rayong provincial court.

I’m sure Samui will be a major headache for them too.

Good luck everyone

Tks for the Article,

not so sure about Samui, at least Samui has already in place it's own public map with land specifications and possible use of it, still a step forward.

Bye

The Forestry Dept have already recently investigated Samui and finished presumably now moving on to other resorts .

[tigerman]

Yes, the guy at Pattaya Land Office wnated to give me a 30 year Ufustruct too. My lawyer was outraged as he said it is impossible to do such a thing - ufustructs can only be for life. They contacted someone high up at the land office in Bangkok who confirmed that the guy in Pattaya was "off with the fairies" and was definitely wrong. However they refuse to intervene - loss of face and all that.

To cut a long story short, I agreed to do a 30 year ufustruct ( with the tax calculated on 30 years), but by the time we had agreed all that the cashier had closed up shop and we had to go back the next week.

My lawyer wasn't gving up that easily, so more representations were made, and more money changed hands (my money) and when I went back the following week a lifetime ufustruct had been agreed. Ironically the tax on the revised document ahad been reduced as they decided I wouldn't live 30 years.

This business about divorcing your wife is an unknown. My lawyer inissts I am completely safe, but others in this forum have different views. Let's hope I never have to put it to the test.