British Colonial Co: Outrage in Australia over theme restaurant

[PTC]

17 minutes ago, halloween said:

 

'it was said' like so much other tripe. You've never been to Tasmania have you? Over 68,000sq km of some of the roughest country anywhere, but urban myth has it that the white settlers formed a line and cleared it of natives.

"The Aboriginal Tasmanians (Tasmanian: Palawa) are the indigenous people of the Australian state of Tasmania, located south of the mainland. In the 20th century the Tasmanian Aboriginal people were erroneously thought of as being an extinct cultural and ethnic group[1] but, today, almost 26 000 people identify as Palawa. This makes Tasmania the state with the second biggest proportion of indigenous to non-indigenous people in Australia."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_Tasmanians

 

From your own link:

 

"[using the] UN definition, sufficient evidence exists to designate the Tasmanian catastrophe genocide."

 

The footnote reference to this statement on Wikipedia:

 

Madley, Benjamin (2008). "From Terror to Genocide: Britain's Tasmanian Penal Colony and Australia's History Wars". Journal of British Studies

 

I have been to Tasmania many times. My best mate has a mooring there for his yacht and I look forward to sailing there on my now rare visits to Australia. I cannot see how your assumption that I have never been to Tasmania or that the State has rugged countryside has anything to do with the extermination of the indigenous people.

 

I am very pleased to know that so many people identify as indigenous Tasmanians. I hope that they continue to maintain their indigenous heritage. However, this in no way excuses the actions of the invaders in their genocide of the indigenous population. I made no claim about your urban myth. Those are your words. If you did not intend to address the issue contained in my post, why reply? You could have done this as a stand alone post unless you believe that your reference somehow mitigates the actions of the 19thC English occupiers.

[Grouse]

 

I really don't understand this at all.

 

Of all our former colonies, the Australians have done jolly well don't you think?

[SheungWan]

35 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

I really don't understand this at all.

 

Of all our former colonies, the Australians have done jolly well don't you think?

 

Are you referring to Kylie Minogue?

[NickJ]

Wonder if they have Spotted Dick on the menu.

[scorecard]

3 hours ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

Don't forget that the "concentration camp" was invented by the Brits for dealing with the Dutch settlers in South Africa (see Wikipedia and other sources)

 

Here's another - 45 years ago i worked in the Melbourne very big office of a very big very famous Brit company.

 

Ninety nine % of the management in Melbourne were pompous overbearing Brit expats who talked down to everybody.

 

Worst case was the wife of the Brit CEO - when she wanted to play tennis (alone or with her Brit lady expat wives) her driver brought her to the office. first up she went to the transport office and ordered 2 buckboards (today pick up trucks) to be used immediately, then she went into the main office, and first 10 or so staff she encountered, male and female regardless of their duties, rank or whatever she ordered then outside into the buckboards. No attempt to tell their managers whats' happening, where they are going, when they will be back.

 

Then they went to her house and she personally supervised them to clear the leaves off the tennis court attached to the CEOs house and then sweep it squeaky clean. Four of five of the younger staff were ordered to stay to be ball boys. 

Edited September 20, 2016 by scorecard

[Reigntax]

3 hours ago, worgeordie said:

If Thailand had been colonised,it would have had a decent

rail system today,if they had maintained it.

regards Worgeordie

And you could add decent education system, a developed system of democracy and a military that took orders from the people, not ordered the people.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Reigntax
typo

[halloween]

1 hour ago, PTC said:

 

From your own link:

 

"[using the] UN definition, sufficient evidence exists to designate the Tasmanian catastrophe genocide."

 

The footnote reference to this statement on Wikipedia:

 

Madley, Benjamin (2008). "From Terror to Genocide: Britain's Tasmanian Penal Colony and Australia's History Wars". Journal of British Studies

 

I have been to Tasmania many times. My best mate has a mooring there for his yacht and I look forward to sailing there on my now rare visits to Australia. I cannot see how your assumption that I have never been to Tasmania or that the State has rugged countryside has anything to do with the extermination of the indigenous people.

 

I am very pleased to know that so many people identify as indigenous Tasmanians. I hope that they continue to maintain their indigenous heritage. However, this in no way excuses the actions of the invaders in their genocide of the indigenous population. I made no claim about your urban myth. Those are your words. If you did not intend to address the issue contained in my post, why reply? You could have done this as a stand alone post unless you believe that your reference somehow mitigates the actions of the 19thC English occupiers.

Reading the link you may have found that the majority of deaths were from disease, not unusual when an isolated community comes into contact with a much more widely travelled group.  Which makes your claim of slaughter about as ridiculous as that the local aboriginals had disappeared like the dodo.

With the high ration of aboriginals in the population, it's strange you didn't manage to see any from your yacht.

[PTC]

3 minutes ago, halloween said:

Reading the link you may have found that the majority of deaths were from disease, not unusual when an isolated community comes into contact with a much more widely travelled group.  Which makes your claim of slaughter about as ridiculous as that the local aboriginals had disappeared like the dodo.

With the high ration of aboriginals in the population, it's strange you didn't manage to see any from your yacht.

 

Since you like Wikipedia:

 

The Black War was the period of violent conflict between British colonists and Aboriginal Australians in Tasmania from the mid-1820s to 1832. The conflict, fought largely as a guerrilla war by both sides, claimed the lives of more than 200 European colonists and between 600 and 900 Aboriginal people, all but annihilating the island's indigenous population. The near-destruction of the Aboriginal Tasmanians, and the frequent incidence of mass killings, has sparked debate among historians over whether the Black War should be defined as an act of genocide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_War

 

I find your attempt to rationalize genocide grotesque. As are your lame attempts at humor.

[Credo]

With all this bickering, the conversation at the restaurant must be most stimulating.   I wonder how the food is?

[halloween]

5 minutes ago, PTC said:

 

Since you like Wikipedia:

 

The Black War was the period of violent conflict between British colonists and Aboriginal Australians in Tasmania from the mid-1820s to 1832. The conflict, fought largely as a guerrilla war by both sides, claimed the lives of more than 200 European colonists and between 600 and 900 Aboriginal people, all but annihilating the island's indigenous population. The near-destruction of the Aboriginal Tasmanians, and the frequent incidence of mass killings, has sparked debate among historians over whether the Black War should be defined as an act of genocide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_War

 

I find your attempt to rationalize genocide grotesque. As are your lame attempts at humor.

" Before British colonisation in 1803, there were an estimated 3,000–15,000 Palawa ....."

 

Some were killed in the fighting. Most were killed by disease. That does not equate to slaughter, and "all but" does not equate to a disappearing race.

Edited September 20, 2016 by halloween

[Scotwight]

4 hours ago, jaidam said:

 Historically the equatorial zone was heavy in brawn and light on ideas. The British were educated and ambitious, way too busy to faff around with hammers and hoes. It was a win win. Ex colonies are thankful to their old masters for giving them proper city planning, straight roads, water management and a sense of pride that is still often lacking in non-commonwealth countries. Look at Australia - we dragged it from the stone age to a fairly modern society. The restaurant is right to be proud of the Commonwealth and all that it stands for.

Ya you tell em.  Look at all the accomplishments made in America since the Empire dragged them from the stone age to modernity.  Wait.  Did I get that right?  Forget that.  Look at India and the elimination of famine.  Wait.  Forget that.  Look at Singapore and all the help the Empire gave them during WWII.  Wait.  Forget that.  How about the Boers or Aden or Cyprus, or Kenya see,  lots of win win situations.   

[PTC]

26 minutes ago, halloween said:

" Before British colonisation in 1803, there were an estimated 3,000–15,000 Palawa ....."

 

Some were killed in the fighting. Most were killed by disease. That does not equate to slaughter, and "all but" does not equate to a disappearing race.

 

Well I guess I will have to give you this. I am not equipped for a discussion on the different historical interpretations of indigenous Tasmanians. Clearly you are pushing Windschuttle's views as expressed in The Fabrication of Aboriginal History or are somehow influenced by them. Since I have not read this book, nor its reviews and critiques, I am not really in a position to address the finer points.

 

I will note, however, that your un-cited quotation provides a quite large range of numbers, an aspect that I have noticed in reading a number of articles related to this issue. Picking over numbers seems to be an insensitive exercise when discussing genocide. Windschuttle's assertion of the indigenous Tasmanian's as complicit in their own genocide seems similarly insensitive and I note that there is a vast amount of criticism of his view.

 

The extent to which indigenous Tasmanians and their socio-cultural structure in the 19thC contributed to their own destruction may well be arguable but it cannot be denied that the introduction of English colonists and their pastoralism caused and contributed to this destruction. It remains justifiably termed as an invasion. Which, I think was my original point.

 

I do not relish reading Windschuttle. I have read some of Niall Fergusson and have seen some of his TV appearances. He is an intellectual bully who seems to be making a career out of being a contrarian to the current trends in social history. I suspect Windschuttle may be of that same brand.

 

From the Guardian's review of Fergusson's Empire

 

"...those who were once on the receiving end of British imperial invasions are less likely than us to view them in a positive light. Ferguson argues this is short-sighted because, whatever its faults, British empire fostered globalisation, overseas investment and free trade and - in the long run - this raised levels of prosperity all round."

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2003/jan/18/featuresreviews.guardianreview5

 

I do not necessarily reject the view of right wing historians and agree that reviewing received knowledge and assumptions is essential to understanding. It is just a pity most of them are a-holes.

 

So I will take it that my point is made and not engage in further discussion on an issue about which I am lacking in detailed information and analysis.

[copa8]

4 hours ago, Alive said:

Thaihome, there is a new story today about uni students doing it again. This what I was referring to. The Thais made an apology for this new incident.

 

To be fair, tho...Thailand is still a developing country with a developing world educational system. Prince Harry lives in a developed country and had a 1st rate/world education. Plus, the average Thai's grasp of Nazism's horrible history is akin to the average Romanian's grasp of Japanese WW2 atrocities.

[daveAustin]

About time there was a re-injection of class downunder. [emoji39]

[Chicog]

Good to see that Thailand has managed to export its "outraged netizens" down under.

 

 

[eliotness]

This thread reminds me of the sketch in Monty Pythons "life of Brian"  -  "what have the Romans ever done for us".  

 

So everyone moans about what the British did to the poor natives in the colonies, but forgets the plight of the workers in Britain during that period.  The expected life span in working class cities was only late 30s in 1900.  The infant death rate was horrendous, my Grandmother lost half her siblings before they reached 16 due to TB.   In fact up to 1945 most working class homes didn't even have their own flushing toilet or even bathrooms.  As for the Boers, don't forget they still wanted slavery even when the British made it illegal.  Bit of a rant, for which I apologise, sorry !

[Scotwight]

17 minutes ago, eliotness said:

n fact up to 1945 most working class homes didn't even have their own flushing toilet or even bathrooms.

Where did they poop?

[Publicus]

14 hours ago, tifino said:

 

Melbourne has it's own Titanic restaurant

 

- it initially got an icy reception , but it's still afloat to this day

 

 

and the 'bergers are good

 

 

 

The whole of the Empire thingy may have been worth it just for the Aussie sense of humor. A Titanic restaurant down under -- now that's just flat out good. Sow's ear to silk purse stuff. 

 

Aussie humour is sometimes thin but it does have a prominent off-centre richness that adds a particular dimension to the Sun Never Sets On thingy. In some cultures everyone has to laugh at everything which means nothing is actually funny. Or serious.

 

The limited edition books of Aussie humour are far more interesting than the volumes of everything is funny titles. Which is to say some people were actually self-deprived of a certain aspect of empire.

[jaidam]

15 hours ago, PTC said:

 

Gross over-generalizations based on a typically English notion of race and class.

 

I wonder if the indigenous population of Tasmania would be proud of taking a crap in their flushing loos made possible by the superior 'water management' skills of the Colonial Masters. Unfortunately we will never know. The indigenous population of that island were slaughtered by the English in the space of 80 years since the invasion of their territory.

 

"In that strange, sorry island so far away, the antipode of the antipodes, it was said that a race of indigenous people had, within 80 years of the English invasion, disappeared from the face of the earth as surely as the dodo. Glosses on their fate varied, but no doubt was had as to the fate itself. With the death of Trugannini in 1876, the last of the Tasmanians was gone."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/oct/14/australia.features11

 

You can place your city planners and road and water engineers, who were primarily Scottish, and shove them in the same place you keep your awful and disgusting observations about the differences between 'equatorial people' and their brawniness and lack of brain power and the 'English'.

 

Perhaps you can tell us what the Commonwealth 'stands' for. Nobody else can.

 You are attempting to drag me into a debate as to whether it is better to sit comfortably on Armitige Shanks fine porcelain while reading the broadsheets, to taking a very hurried dump behind the nearest tree - presumably in mortal fear of attack by sabre toothed beasts. I will not be drawn into such a ridiculous argument. Clearly the colonists deserve gratitude for bringing civilization to the wild and savage lands, even if some modernists just refuse to accept the fact.

[Ace of Pop]

Easy to spot the Wimpy Left out there in Cyber-land, not yet Colonised by other than them. Crocodile Dundee and Sir Les Patterson, Meat Pies, Hoons Bathhurst 1000, their armed forces plus the Rotary Clothes Line are what matter, and the Indigenous who have done good and aint Pissed Abboes.  Apart from the Cops with Radar GUNS , a Great  Nation to Live in.

[hansnl]

16 hours ago, JetsetBkk said:

 

Very true. We left a lot of places because the natives wanted self-rule and kicked or voted us out. We left behind good roads, railways, schools and the English language.

 

Pity the natives often screwed up what we had left them because of the usual inter-tribal greed.

Quite right.

But bashing Britain for it's past is easy.

Other countries kicked in, after Britain left the scene, no we name no names.

That same country shouldered and threatened other countries into giving up their colonies, because colonies were bad, resulting in lots of aggro and a growing of the influence in the ex colony for that shouldering country.

But they gambled wrong mostly.

Like they still do most of the time

Another European country just called the colonies provinces and never left.

 

 

[hansnl]

13 hours ago, scorecard said:

 

Here's another - 45 years ago i worked in the Melbourne very big office of a very big very famous Brit company.

 

Ninety nine % of the management in Melbourne were pompous overbearing Brit expats who talked down to everybody.

 

Worst case was the wife of the Brit CEO - when she wanted to play tennis (alone or with her Brit lady expat wives) her driver brought her to the office. first up she went to the transport office and ordered 2 buckboards (today pick up trucks) to be used immediately, then she went into the main office, and first 10 or so staff she encountered, male and female regardless of their duties, rank or whatever she ordered then outside into the buckboards. No attempt to tell their managers whats' happening, where they are going, when they will be back.

 

Then they went to her house and she personally supervised them to clear the leaves off the tennis court attached to the CEOs house and then sweep it squeaky clean. Four of five of the younger staff were ordered to stay to be ball boys. 

Nice story.

But what is your point?

You think only poms are able to show such "bad manners" to the natives, or locals, or whatever?

I'd say, do some research, you might be surprised how many cases like the above you could find done by Aussies to Aussies and Aboriginals alike.

Snobbish behaviour and misbehaviour is kind of universal.

[Johpa]

17 hours ago, worgeordie said:

If Thailand had been colonized, it would have had a decent

rail system today,if they had maintained it.

 

Thailand was colonized by the Teochew and other Chinese, but mainly Teochew.  They built palatial homes, controlled an economy focused on exporting both goods and capital. They marginalized indigenous folks. They restrict access to capital to non-Chinese. Feels like colonialism to me.

[DoctorG]

15 hours ago, simple1 said:

I live in Queensland and barely a ripple in either local or national media. Same concept is utilised for an excellent Indian restaurant in Sydney with zero fuss.

 

It's fair to say the indigenous population suffered greatly from the European takeover & still battle for Constitutional recognition. Aborigines have major problems within their society with very high rates of domestic violence, youth suicide, healthcare etc etc.

 

I am glad that you said this as I live in Brisbane and there has been nothing that I have seen on any news programs about this.

I thought that it must have just been me

[nontabury]

17 hours ago, Enoon said:

 

But it did much more to exploit and suppress those "natives" in order to enrich the centre of empire.

 

The Industrial Revolution was funded by profits from the British expansion of the Atlantic slave trade, to supply the Carribbean and North American slave plantations, which themselves provided even greater wealth to the centre.

 

The Irish population of the US are there because the Empire sat back and watched Ireland starve under it's "benevloent" gaze.  Britain gained control of Ireland only to suppress what it saw as a Catholic threat, it contributed little wealth to the centre so the suffering could be ignored.

 

Exploitation and suppression and are what empires are for.  There's no purpose in having one unless you do that.  Taking more than giving.

 

You're an American , you should know that and, I'm sure, would not "argue".

 

 

 

Re-Ireland. True The British government were guilty of not doing enough to help those effected by the famine. But let's not forget that the average person on the mainland were in no position to help their fellow citizens in Ireland. Remember that mass communication was not available at that time,added to the fact that most of the population were not living in stately homes,but in shacks trying to find the food to feed their own families.

    Interestingly I watch a programme a few years ago on this very subject, they interviewed an official at the main museum in Dublin. HE stated that it was not correct to focus all the blame on the mainline British,further stating that many Irish people at that time were also guilty of ignoring what was taking place in front of their own eyes. 

[tifino]

2 hours ago, Scotwight said:

Where did they poop?

 

the Outside Dunny/Claptrap/Thunderbox/Redback Nest

 

 

Before that - the nearest tree   (or nearest bush for a prim'n'proper lady)

[Prbkk]

Complete crock and total beat-up. There is no outrage: perhaps some bemusement that it is even being reported.

No one would seek to deny the seedier side of colonialism ( ipso facto genocide in respect of Tasmanian aboriginals, a policy of allowing the robber barons to addict a whole country to opium in exchange for tea, an endless list) but was it worse than France, Holland, Belgium, Portugal, Spain? Of course not: in many aspects far better eg infrastructure as opposed to crusty bread recipes.

[phantomfiddler]

Aah, C,mon, Less of the Ozzie bashing. Australians are a great bunch of people, it,s them white guys who came later that let the show down !

[tifino]

1 hour ago, Publicus said:

 

The whole of the Empire thingy may have been worth it just for the Aussie sense of humor. A Titanic restaurant down under -- now that's just flat out good. Sow's ear to silk purse stuff. 

 

Aussie humour is sometimes thin but it does have a prominent off-centre richness that adds a particular dimension to the Sun Never Sets On thingy. In some cultures everyone has to laugh at everything which means nothing is actually funny. Or serious.

 

The limited edition books of Aussie humour are far more interesting than the volumes of everything is funny titles. Which is to say some people were actually self-deprived of a certain aspect of empire.

 

and we have definitely not been slack from donating (or leasing) a little of our OZ humour colonialism (up your nose) back to the UK:

 

 

 - in the form of Barry Humphries (whether that be as the character themselves, or the scripting behind one):

 

There was:

Bazza Mackenzie

Dame Edna Everidge

Sir Les Patterson

Bert Schnick...

 

the list(s) go on... and on

 

[robblok]

17 hours ago, ourmanflint said:

oooh British people did lots of bad things, back 200 years ago. So only British people did bad things, and the rest of the world were all holding hands and being nice to each other. What a load of s-h-i-t-e!

 

Dutch did some bad things in Indonesia.. why not accept your own countries bad past ? Every country that invaded others and forged an empire did so by killing and murdering others. Why do you think the Americans revolted.. because the Brits were so nice ? 

 

All this crap about elevating other counties... that is was not what it was about it was about plundering and pillaging riches. Dutch did their fair share and the Americans committed genocide on the native Americans. Romans were not nice either...  So whatever empire there is its always build on blood and bones. 

 

That is just how it is no need to celebrate it and make it into something it was not. I am not going to act like selling slaves (Dutch did that) was such a glorious and humane thing. But on the other hand.. why feel responsible or proud about things done when you were not even alive.