Yingluck govt had role in 2011 flood: Atthawit

[tbthailand]

I recall the devastating floods in March 2011 in the south of Thailand, ... shall we open an inquiry on Mark?

 

Oh wait, it's a purge, ... sorry, forgot... 

[halloween]

5 hours ago, Grubster said:

And had she released a lot of water, and then a drought would have started it would also have been a crime wouldn't it. Think, its free, just Think. Its weather, unpredictable weather. 

Wrong year. In 2012 she dumped the major storage dams, to prevent being blamed again, just in time for the big drought.

BTW there was ample information that a large body of water was moving south in 2011. Ignoring that because there might be a drought next year would be the height of stupidity.

[halloween]

27 minutes ago, tbthailand said:

I recall the devastating floods in March 2011 in the south of Thailand, ... shall we open an inquiry on Mark?

 

Oh wait, it's a purge, ... sorry, forgot... 

What actions/inactions of the the Abhisit government exacerbated the damage from these floods?

BTW the actions of the Democrat government re the 2011 Bangkok floods are ALREADY being investigated.

Edited September 26, 2016 by halloween

[halloween]

5 hours ago, MAN2SIN2BKK said:

 

What a load of crap: please refer to this link http://www.kromchol.com/array/BDam.htm year 2554 the red line: the levels of the Bhumibol dam were abnormal from March, and rose at a higher rate than normal until early October when the level was 100%. The Sirikit dam levels were similar with a surge in late June. When Yingluck took office the damage had already been done; the levels were over 90%, normally in August they are between 40 and 50

 

The Governor of Bangkok did do everything to protect Bangkok to the expense of the rest of the country, my house in Pathumthani was under 1.5 meters of water for 6 weeks, without his intervention this flood would have cleared in 3 or 4 days

 

Bhumipol Dam exceeded its operating level curve on the day Yingluk took office. It crossed its lower level curve on April 30, making you claim of "abnormal level" specious, unless you meant abnormally low. The reaction to higher flows than normal is to release water.

When you look at the figures for Sirikit, you might consider the location of the dam.

BTW your link is useless. Try Water Watch.

[sujoop]

On July 4 2011 Yingluck won on the back of the infamous rice pledging scheme. As of handover to her Govt on Aug 10 2011 the main dams were rising but in reasonably good shape. Bhumibol dam for example:
http://www.thaiwater.net/DATA/REPORT/php/egat_lgraph3.php?dam_id=1&year1=2007,2008,2009,2010,2011,2012,2013,2014,
 

However, after August NO strategic drainage was done (until ultimately there was no choice). This was directly related to wanting farmers to get their rice crop in before release of bloated dams to kick off their corruption ridden rice pledging scheme. This is not a case of mere mismanagement, nor a case of a normal subsidy program but both were/are inter-connected cases of willful criminal negligence. Thaksin speaks, Yingluck does. This is the result.
 

Might add - Directly after confiscating 46 billion of Thaksin's ill gotten gains in 2010 unrest really kicked off with men in black ambushing Soldiers on the night of April 10, 2010 and escalated from there. Some believe Thaksin can do whatever he wants with the public's money as Yingluck famously stated 'we came from election'. However, confiscate any of Thaksin's ill gotten gains and !BOOM! all hell breaks loose. Now all bets are off what will happen after Yingluck gets docked 35.7 billion  (some believe a warning was already issued on Aug 12)...

[chainarong]

The only problem is that famous quote, the flood mitigation programme is working , now the question is, when did former Prime Minister say it........................................................

[pookiki]

2 hours ago, robblok said:

In democratic countries politicians can be held accountable personal if the transgression is grave enough. Now YL going over the head of experts and forcing them not to release water is certainly a grave transgression.

 

I gave you the example of the director of a hospital stepping into an operating room and taking over from the surgeon (while the director is not skilled) and killing the patient. That would not be called an accident but would be real bad. Similar for YL.. no watermanagement education going over the heads of these men and making a mess of it. That is indeed something that could be punished in the west too. 

 

You are seeing this as something minor .. then yes you got some commission.. but even then sometimes punishment comes. Besides if the transgression is grave enough they go to jail too. I have seen politicians go to jail.. you havent ?

 

Your kidding yourself that Thailand is a democracy.. it never was.. in a democracy the thing YL and others did would have never happened and would have been punished. But you prefer a fake democracy over a junta.. that is your prerogative.  I would support a functioning democracy in Thailand.. but not those where the crooks rule and are not punished. 

With all due respect, I think there are plenty of examples of officials in democratic governments making faulty or negligent decisions when natural disasters have struck. None were held personally liable.

 

What about global warming? There are plenty of experts who say it is real and other who say it is all BS. The bottom line is that the best thing to do to protect your property in the event of natural disasters is have insurance!  There are no guarantees that any government will always make the correct decisions even with the advice of experts.  In the US, try to get a mortgage in a flood prone or hurricane prone area without insurance. It won't happen.  Banks know how to protect their assets against the forces of nature. If governments were capable of controlling nature, the term 'force majeure' wouldn't be part of our vocabulary. I'm sorry you lost some of your property.  But to claim that the situation was unavoidable is speculation at best.

Edited September 26, 2016 by pookiki
grammar

[free123]

a country like thailand that has heavy rainfalls and not since yesterday should have implemented strategies to manage the heavy rain fall...and adapt these strategies when and if necessary....and these strategies should be able to manage three times the water of past maximal rainfall....at any given moment....

 

look is easy... this has nothing to do which government is in rule...yellow red pink or blue...king or peasants it rains for everybody so these strategies should be independent no matter which group is in power...a big role the army could play as these are the real emergency guys...every where in the world the same....if the rain would come when the yellows would be in they would have to take the blame...

[halloween]

13 minutes ago, pookiki said:

With all due respect, I think there are plenty of examples of officials in democratic governments making faulty or negligent decisions when natural disasters have struck. None were held personally liable.

 

What about global warming? There are plenty of experts who say it is real and other who say it is all BS. The bottom line is that the best thing to do to protect your property in the event of natural disasters is have insurance!  There are no guarantees that any government will always make the correct decisions even with the advice of experts.  In the US, try to get a mortgage in a flood prone or hurricane prone area without insurance. It won't happen.  Banks know how to protect their assets against the forces of nature. If governments were capable of controlling nature, the term 'force majeure' wouldn't be part of our vocabulary. I'm sorry you lost some of your property.  But to claim that the situation was unavoidable is speculation at best.

" But to claim that the situation was unavoidable is speculation at best."

Agreed.

[halloween]

1 minute ago, free123 said:

a country like thailand that has heavy rainfalls and not since yesterday should have implemented strategies to manage the heavy rain fall...and adapt these strategies when and if necessary....and these strategies should be able to manage three times the water of past maximal rainfall....at any given moment....

 

look is easy... this has nothing to do which government is in rule...yellow red pink or blue...king or peasants it rains for everybody so these strategies should be independent no matter which group is in power...a big role the army could play as these are the real emergency guys...every where in the world the same....if the rain would come when the yellows would be in they would have to take the blame...

The claim is that when the rain came, reasonable and prudent measures to limit the damage caused were NOT taken for reasons of political gain. It doesn't matter who is in office when it rains, people have the right to expect their government to act appropriately, and use all tools at their disposal to limit the damage of an unavoidable weather event.

[pookiki]

The US Army Corp of Engineers has labs in which it can replicate the impact of heavy rainfall/flooding in major areas of the US - the Ohio/Mississippi/Missouri river basins in particular. Despite the best efforts of the government to implement flood alleviation projects, floods still happen because of the unique circumstances of each situation.  Experts cannot reliably predict every aspect of a flood or attempts to mitigate a flood.  There are just too many variables.  Again, humanity is acting in a foolhardy manner if it expects it can control the forces of nature.  If this was the case, there would not be any flooding in Ayutthaya or Ang Thong at the moment. 

[Thechook]

10 minutes ago, halloween said:

The claim is that when the rain came, reasonable and prudent measures to limit the damage caused were NOT taken for reasons of political gain. It doesn't matter who is in office when it rains, people have the right to expect their government to act appropriately, and use all tools at their disposal to limit the damage of an unavoidable weather event.

Same in Australia this week, it rained and there is flooding and the federal government did nothing to stop it. 239 homes evacuated and the Prime Minister may be facing a huge law suit for doing this.

[halloween]

Just now, Thechook said:

Same in Australia this week, it rained and there is flooding and the federal government did nothing to stop it. 239 homes evacuated and the Prime Minister may be facing a huge law suit for doing this.

What actions/inactions of the Oz government exacerbated the flooding? Stop floating childish arguments.

[tbthailand]

2 hours ago, halloween said:

What actions/inactions of the the Abhisit government exacerbated the damage from these floods?

BTW the actions of the Democrat government re the 2011 Bangkok floods are ALREADY being investigated.

it doesn't matter because Mark & Co. are good little lapdogs and they aren't being purged.

 

 

[Eric Loh]

2 hours ago, sujoop said:

 

Might add - Directly after confiscating 46 billion of Thaksin's ill gotten gains in 2010 unrest really kicked off with men in black ambushing Soldiers on the night of April 10, 2010 and escalated from there. Some believe Thaksin can do whatever he wants with the public's money as Yingluck famously stated 'we came from election'. However, confiscate any of Thaksin's ill gotten gains and !BOOM! all hell breaks loose. Now all bets are off what will happen after Yingluck gets docked 35.7 billion  (some believe a warning was already issued on Aug 12)...

 

Thaksin wealth was confiscated by junta appointed AEC after the coup and Yingluck gets docked by another junta appointed NACC after another coup. You see any pattern forming to suggest that the establishment intended purge of a particular family? Doubt you see anything from your yellow tainted glasses.

[Grubster]

3 hours ago, halloween said:

Wrong year. In 2012 she dumped the major storage dams, to prevent being blamed again, just in time for the big drought.

BTW there was ample information that a large body of water was moving south in 2011. Ignoring that because there might be a drought next year would be the height of stupidity.

Oh they new there would be floods a month in advance huh, you must think you can let the water out in a day huh. What would you do after being chastised by all your opposition the year prior. I would let it out and hope there was a drought so you could show the dumb asses why you didn't the 1st time.

[pookiki]

One of the things that amuses me is the demigod status inferred on 'experts' in fields where the number of variables often undermine any predictive reliability.  Economics and weather come to mind most quickly for me.   Politicians often take the blame when the economy is good and become the fall guy when economic conditions are bad. In reality, politicians have little control over the economy and less over the weather.  If expert 'advice' was always reliable we'd all be as rich as Bill Gates. 

 

 

[robblok]

3 hours ago, pookiki said:

With all due respect, I think there are plenty of examples of officials in democratic governments making faulty or negligent decisions when natural disasters have struck. None were held personally liable.

 

What about global warming? There are plenty of experts who say it is real and other who say it is all BS. The bottom line is that the best thing to do to protect your property in the event of natural disasters is have insurance!  There are no guarantees that any government will always make the correct decisions even with the advice of experts.  In the US, try to get a mortgage in a flood prone or hurricane prone area without insurance. It won't happen.  Banks know how to protect their assets against the forces of nature. If governments were capable of controlling nature, the term 'force majeure' wouldn't be part of our vocabulary. I'm sorry you lost some of your property.  But to claim that the situation was unavoidable is speculation at best.

You keep missing the point that YL ignored the experts who controlled the dams who said the water had to be dumped now (towards October the tides are higher and that hinders getting rid of water). By ignoring their warnings (she has no expertise in the field) she took charge over something she had no experience in. 

 

If you override the experts that control something.. then  you are responsible for the outcome too. In this case it was to make the flooding a lot worse. You keep ignoring this part.

Show me a natural disaster where the goverment official went over the head of the experts controlling this and making it worse and getting of without punishment. 

 

I gave you the example of a hospital director without medical knowledge stepping in an operating room telling the surgeon he would operate and killing the patient. What YL did is akin to that. 

 

Making a faulty decision is one thing overriding the experts and then making a faulty decision on a something you have no expertise is something totally else. Not to mention that the only reason to override the decision was monetary gain for her supporters. 

 

Your totally missing the point all the time.. but I had not expected differently from YL supporter. I can tell you that if a Dutch goverment official tells the guys in charge of the water works to get lost and he will arrange it and it goes totally wrong it wont be forgotten and could end in jail-time. That is different of course if it was the officials task to make those decisions .. then he made them while doing his job.  Maybe you see the difference. 

[robblok]

1 hour ago, pookiki said:

One of the things that amuses me is the demigod status inferred on 'experts' in fields where the number of variables often undermine any predictive reliability.  Economics and weather come to mind most quickly for me.   Politicians often take the blame when the economy is good and become the fall guy when economic conditions are bad. In reality, politicians have little control over the economy and less over the weather.  If expert 'advice' was always reliable we'd all be as rich as Bill Gates. 

 

 

 

No the economy is often cyclic and if your lucky you ride it..t hat does not mean you can't mess it up or improve it a bit.

 

But again your now talking about management of dams.. that is not managing the weather. Its also widely known that in October the tides are high and drainage is a lot harder then. So draining water before that time is more then logical. 

[pookiki]

6 hours ago, robblok said:

 

No the economy is often cyclic and if your lucky you ride it..t hat does not mean you can't mess it up or improve it a bit.

 

But again your now talking about management of dams.. that is not managing the weather. Its also widely known that in October the tides are high and drainage is a lot harder then. So draining water before that time is more then logical. 

Your mantra as well as others is that 'she ignored the advice of experts".  What about the floods under Abhisit?  Did they occur because of the same reasons?  Despite your opinion, I am of the firm belief that even if Yingluck had taken the advice of the experts, the flooding would have occurred anyway. There was simply a convergence of too many events to make this flooding, which was a 50 or 100 year event, avoidable.

 

Please tell me why are the floods occurring in Ayutthaya and Ang Thong at the moment?  Are these floods avoidable under the enlightened leadership of the junta?  No.  Why?  Simply because there is too much water coming downstream and water has to be released from dams. Are people's property being damaged and destroyed in the process?  It certainly is. Please explain to me why the 'experts' couldn't prevent the current floods.  Are there forces beyond their control?

 

This thread is replete with statistics that do not support your view but you ignore them.  That's ok, you are entitled to your speculative opinion as much as I am entitled to mine.

Edited September 26, 2016 by pookiki

[pookiki]

The 2011 floods were 'above a 100 year event".

 

http://globalcateye.com/media/861/Thailand_Floods_2011.pdf

[pookiki]

Article in the BP this morning about a 'conflict of experts' about the flooding in Ayutthaya!  Who's right?  Who's wrong?  Maybe, just maybe, nature is at fault?

[halloween]

12 hours ago, Grubster said:

Oh they new there would be floods a month in advance huh, you must think you can let the water out in a day huh. What would you do after being chastised by all your opposition the year prior. I would let it out and hope there was a drought so you could show the dumb asses why you didn't the 1st time.

Actually they knew there would be floods in BKK much longer than a month in advance. Yes, you can't let the water out in a day, or a week, or even a month, but that's what the incompetents in office didn't realise. Or they decided a rice crop was worth more than the added damage there refusing to allow draining would cause.

[Yann55]

On 26/09/2016 at 6:28 AM, NongKhaiKid said:

What happens if the PM was to manage to completely negate the Shin influence, where would he be without a bogeyman ?

Great dilemma for him, does he claim having rid the country of an evil influence and look for a new threat or roll with a version of ' Return Of The Bogeyman ' ?

 

Exactly.

Well, he could always switch to blaming the foreigners even more than he already does, in and out of the country, for all the problems, present, past and future.

Blaming foreigners always works in politics, and a lot of Western politicians (one of them actually running for president in the USA)  are now singing that tune with great success. Thaksin was pretty good at it too.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Yann55

[mike324]

7 hours ago, halloween said:

Actually they knew there would be floods in BKK much longer than a month in advance. Yes, you can't let the water out in a day, or a week, or even a month, but that's what the incompetents in office didn't realise. Or they decided a rice crop was worth more than the added damage there refusing to allow draining would cause.

 

I agree, many people arguing here just can't get it in their heads or won't admit that PTP made it worse due to making good on their promise on the Rice Scheme, nobody is arguing about the unpredictable weather. 

 

If you can choose between being flooded, or heavily flooded, which would you choose? Seems like many of the PTP supporters won't admit to the difference.

 

People comparing examples in the West are comparing Apples to Oranges. 

[Grubster]

9 hours ago, halloween said:

Actually they knew there would be floods in BKK much longer than a month in advance. Yes, you can't let the water out in a day, or a week, or even a month, but that's what the incompetents in office didn't realise. Or they decided a rice crop was worth more than the added damage there refusing to allow draining would cause.

I would like the info on a weather service that can "KNOW" a month in advance what the weather will do. They could make billions, and I want in.

[halloween]

2 hours ago, Grubster said:

I would like the info on a weather service that can "KNOW" a month in advance what the weather will do. They could make billions, and I want in.

You don't need a weather service to know that billions of tons of water are moving downstream to your capital city. It takes a long time for rain that falls in the far north and north-east to reach the coast, but there is no doubt it will head in that direction.

[robblok]

16 hours ago, pookiki said:

Your mantra as well as others is that 'she ignored the advice of experts".  What about the floods under Abhisit?  Did they occur because of the same reasons?  Despite your opinion, I am of the firm belief that even if Yingluck had taken the advice of the experts, the flooding would have occurred anyway. There was simply a convergence of too many events to make this flooding, which was a 50 or 100 year event, avoidable.

 

Please tell me why are the floods occurring in Ayutthaya and Ang Thong at the moment?  Are these floods avoidable under the enlightened leadership of the junta?  No.  Why?  Simply because there is too much water coming downstream and water has to be released from dams. Are people's property being damaged and destroyed in the process?  It certainly is. Please explain to me why the 'experts' couldn't prevent the current floods.  Are there forces beyond their control?

 

This thread is replete with statistics that do not support your view but you ignore them.  That's ok, you are entitled to your speculative opinion as much as I am entitled to mine.

Actually statistics support my views not yours and you keep ignoring what I said about her going over the head of the experts. By doing so she made it WORSE because the high tide then coincided with her letting the water from the dams and the extra rain. So do I think there would not have been any flooding.. NO. Do i think she made it a lot worse YES. 

 

So she is liable for the extra damage. 

 

No government can prevent all flooding (unfortunately) but no need to make it worse because people wanted to capitalize on the rice program. That was what happened. 

[Grubster]

7 minutes ago, halloween said:

You don't need a weather service to know that billions of tons of water are moving downstream to your capital city. It takes a long time for rain that falls in the far north and north-east to reach the coast, but there is no doubt it will head in that direction.

No you wouldn't, but by the time you realized there was heavy flooding in the north you would have two to three days to react as the worst of it would be there that fast. Snow melts are the only type of river flooding that I've seen that you can prepare for.

[halloween]

5 minutes ago, Grubster said:

No you wouldn't, but by the time you realized there was heavy flooding in the north you would have two to three days to react as the worst of it would be there that fast. Snow melts are the only type of river flooding that I've seen that you can prepare for.

BS.

" The flooding began at the end of July triggered by the landfall of Tropical Storm Nock-ten. These floods soon spread through the provinces of northern, northeastern, and central Thailand along the Mekong and Chao Phraya river basins. In October floodwaters reached the mouth of the Chao Phraya and inundated parts of the capital city of Bangkok. "  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Thailand_floods

Edited September 27, 2016 by halloween