Burmese enter their third year in prison for the Koh Tao murders

[Khun Han]

Again (how many times?), the machine cannot test mixed sample sperm DNA, so any alleged samples could not be stored in a machine that cannot test them.

 

It became obvious a long time ago that the RTP can convince judges of any DNA evidence by just alleging that they have the original samples and providing a few scrappy, manually edited bits of paper with a bit of pseudo -DNA 'evidence' on them.

 

 

[DiscoDan]

2 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

Again (how many times?), the machine cannot test mixed sample sperm DNA, so any alleged samples could not be stored in a machine that cannot test them.

 

It became obvious a long time ago that the RTP can convince judges of any DNA evidence by just alleging that they have the original samples and providing a few scrappy, manually edited bits of paper with a bit of pseudo -DNA 'evidence' on them.

 

 

The profiles are stored on a database. Once the profiles were extracted they would be put in the database and the machine can make a match against this.

 

Once the profiles are extracted the dna mix would no longer be needed for the testing process.

 

 

[greenchair]

1 hour ago, DiscoDan said:

Well they have lots of reasons to want this thread closed.

The fact that one of their dumb activists slipped.up and posted on their FB that the police testified in court they used new high tech rapid dna machine that tested dna in a few hours, Robert Holmes also confirmed this.

 

Then you have the infighting with the B2 activists throwing accusations against each other most involving money or who love the their boys the most.

 

The most recent allegations involved the theft of 125k thb. And the plagiarizing of a letter by the perth PROPERTY lawyer.

 

 

 

 

 

Now there are several new pieces of information that I was not aware of. 

125 thousand baht missing.

A plagerised letter. 

And a dna machine that could not test mixed sample  (according to Khun Han ) but did test the first sample that was not mixed,which had a result 2 days after the murder. This then matched up to at least one of them 2 weeks later. 

I would like to hear more about the missing money. 

[greenchair]

9 hours ago, Khun Han said:

On the subject of everyone accepting that the smashed iphone was David's: Andy and the defence team would have had to have accused the RTP of corruption (which they clearly were, over and over, in this case). This a big no-no in Thai courts, a line that cannot be crossed.

 

Many casual readers won't be aware of how up against the Thai system the B2's defence were in trying to put a good defence together. They were 'walking on broken glass' the whole time. The prosecution and RTP, on the other hand, could say and claim what they liked: caught out perjuring themselves in court? No problem! The judges just ignored it and moved on!

 

So you are saying the team just agreed to agree with the police about the most incriminating piece of evidence in the whole case because they were afraid to accuse the police of corruption. But they didn't mind accusing the police of corruption in regards to the most controversial evidence of which most in the court didn't understand anyway. 

After being in the Thai court, I am well aware of sneaky tactics by both police and prosecutors. On that point I agree. 

[DiscoDan]

18 minutes ago, greenchair said:

 

Now there are several new pieces of information that I was not aware of. 

125 thousand baht missing.

A plagerised letter. 

And a dna machine that could not test mixed sample  (according to Khun Han ) but did test the first sample that was not mixed,which had a result 2 days after the murder. This then matched up to at least one of them 2 weeks later. 

I would like to hear more about the missing money.

 

 It's all on the  perth PROPERTY lawyers twitter feed he has been going on about it for over a month now.

[Khun Han]

33 minutes ago, greenchair said:

 

Now there are several new pieces of information that I was not aware of. 

125 thousand baht missing.

A plagerised letter. 

And a dna machine that could not test mixed sample  (according to Khun Han ) but did test the first sample that was not mixed,which had a result 2 days after the murder. This then matched up to at least one of them 2 weeks later. 

I would like to hear more about the missing money. 

 

And allegations about financial irregullarities by third parties are new information about the innocence or guilt of the B2 in what way?

 

The only first sample that was not mixed which was tested early on was a cigarette butt found where the B2 and Maung Maung were smoking, drinking and playing guitar on the beach. That's old information which is, as usual, being misrepresented by greenchair an DiscoDan.

[Khun Han]

44 minutes ago, DiscoDan said:

The profiles are stored on a database. Once the profiles were extracted they would be put in the database and the machine can make a match against this.

 

Once the profiles are extracted the dna mix would no longer be needed for the testing process.

 

 

 

So the profiles were extracted into individual format manually? Where's the chain of custody documentation that's required for this type of procedure under standard DNA evidence rules then? None was presented to the trial court, so this 'evidence' should have been ruled inadmissible.

[greenchair]

7 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

And allegations about financial irregullarities by third parties are new information about the innocence or guilt of the B2 in what way?

 

The only first sample that was not mixed which was tested early on was a cigarette butt found where the B2 and Maung Maung were smoking, drinking and playing guitar on the beach. That's old information which is, as usual, being misrepresented by greenchair an DiscoDan.

 

The dna of the first cavity was from a single entity and matched the ciggerette butt in the beginning and later matched wei Phyo. The dna of the second cavity was mixed and matched to Wei Phyo and Zaw Lin. 

I do wander that Zaw Lin might be innocent. But Wei Phyo not on your Nellie. 

[Khun Han]

So the RTP claim to have obtained DNA from both Wei Phyo and Zaw Lin from one cavity (which would have to be separated manually in order to be tested, but no chain of custody documentation for this alleged procedure was provided to the trial court for this, which renders the 'results' invalid), and you think Zaw Lin might be innocent. There is no logic to your thinking on this. Or maybe you are hinting that the RTP faked Zaw Lin's DNA 'evidence'? And, just to confuse things, the Norfolk Coroner, Jacqueline Lake, gave a copy of her autopsy report to the defence team, which they gave to the trial judges, which said report stated that Hannah had been sexually assaulted but not raped.

[IslandLover]

1 hour ago, greenchair said:

 

Now there are several new pieces of information that I was not aware of. 

125 thousand baht missing.

A plagerised letter. 

And a dna machine that could not test mixed sample  (according to Khun Han ) but did test the first sample that was not mixed,which had a result 2 days after the murder. This then matched up to at least one of them 2 weeks later. 

I would like to hear more about the missing money. 

 

Suggest you join twitter, Greenchair, then you would know everything there is to know about this case.

[smedly]

2 hours ago, greenchair said:

 

The dna of the first cavity was from a single entity and matched the ciggerette butt in the beginning and later matched wei Phyo. The dna of the second cavity was mixed and matched to Wei Phyo and Zaw Lin. 

I do wander that Zaw Lin might be innocent. But Wei Phyo not on your Nellie. 

and the cigarette butt is where exactly lol

 

There must be a cavity where the police have stored all this evidence they claim to have had but somehow have forgotten where exactly it is 

[smedly]

as for DNA since it has been brought up again

 

replicated DNA that was being offered to the defense for retesting is not an original sample, there is no way to tell if this dna came from slaiva - sperm - blood etc it has already been processed and extracted, it is absolutly usless to make a confirmation match in a criminal case, a criminal case involves matching dna from a crime scene to an accused, i.e. 2 sets of dna to be compared from two sources, extracted or processed dna could be from the same sample i.e. the accused saliva

 

It would be like taking another saliva sample from the B2 and comparing it with a saliva sample taken earlier - absolutely useless at proving anything

 

This is why I keep repeating (and certain people keep ignoring)that in order to do a confirmation dna retest,

 

************only the original samples taken from the victim can be used************

 

No actual physical DNA evidence was presented, no actual original samples were made available to either the court or the defence - THIS MAKES IT INADMISSABLE

A simplistic example of something similar -
- Police say they test a handgun they found in the accused possession and it is a ballistic match to the bullet that killed a murder victim.
- The defence say we don't believe you we want to test that evidence ourselves
- Oh sorry we don't have the gun or bullet anymore
- court rules the evidence as inadmissible ..............................end of case

It really is as simple as that, police cannot simply make claims about physical evidence without producing it, and that accounts for pretty much everything - cctv - weapons - dna - various samples , IT COVERS ALL "PHYSICAL" EVIDENCE...............NO EXCEPTIONS
 

 

The offer from the prosecution of providing processed DNA was a ploy and the defence obviously under advisement - declined

 

but they should have made more of this and demanded the original samples even though a prosecution witness had already testified they no longer existed and shortly after that we had the police chief claiming they still had them, where are they lol

 

The whole thing is comical from start to finish

Edited October 4, 2016 by smedly

[greenchair]

7 hours ago, IslandLover said:

 

Suggest you join twitter, Greenchair, then you would know everything there is to know about this case.

 

What's that? What is the name I should look for? ?

[greenchair]

7 hours ago, Khun Han said:

So the RTP claim to have obtained DNA from both Wei Phyo and Zaw Lin from one cavity (which would have to be separated manually in order to be tested, but no chain of custody documentation for this alleged procedure was provided to the trial court for this, which renders the 'results' invalid), and you think Zaw Lin might be innocent. There is no logic to your thinking on this. Or maybe you are hinting that the RTP faked Zaw Lin's DNA 'evidence'? And, just to confuse things, the Norfolk Coroner, Jacqueline Lake, gave a copy of her autopsy report to the defence team, which they gave to the trial judges, which said report stated that Hannah had been sexually assaulted but not raped.

 

1. The court records state, there is mixed dna from the back end. Dna from 1 person in the front. 

Everyone is agreeable on that issue, although not agreeable who it belongs. 

2.Zaw Lin story is the one AH and Wei Phyo cling to when in fact their story is quite different. 

Zaw Lin got drunk on beach,went home to sleep. All they had on him was mixed dna with no back up evidence of any kind. I think it would not be enough to convict him. But wp left his belongings at the beach. Went back to the beach at 4 am. After sleeping only 1 -2 hours. Had possession of the victims phone. Dna was not mixed, easier to test by the machine. 

Lied on several occasions. It's possible the he was involved in the murders when he went back to the beach. I vaguely remember an article that said one of them was offered to let go, but he wanted to stay with his friend. Way back when they were first arrested. 

[stephenterry]

Smedly has explained at length, and repeatedly, that DNA original samples have to be produced in court as physical evidence of their existence, otherwise the so called DNA evidence claim is inadmissible (or should be if the law is followed by the court). In the absence of such evidence, but the court's acceptance of such claims, makes the verdict unsound.

 

It is as simple as that.

 

 

 

   

[stephenterry]

But of course, the Appeal judges will continue to ignore the legal arguments, and reject the appeal on whatever dubious grounds they can fudge up to continue this farce, and to protect their collective face.

[stephenterry]

And for any posters who continually bring up the DNA evidence as being sound, please refer to posts 106 & 109 - and try to understand what is permissible evidence in a law court and what isn't.

 

I would go as far to say that had the RTP actually had original samples that matched the B2, they would have produced them in court as a no-brainer to prove guilt. In the absence of such, it is logical to conclude they didn't have any original samples (and no brains, either).

 

Not that will in any way hasten the release of the B2 who will remain incarcerated for many years yet while this farce continues to be played out by the no-justice system.

[AleG]

9 hours ago, greenchair said:

 

So you are saying the team just agreed to agree with the police about the most incriminating piece of evidence in the whole case because they were afraid to accuse the police of corruption. But they didn't mind accusing the police of corruption in regards to the most controversial evidence of which most in the court didn't understand anyway. 

After being in the Thai court, I am well aware of sneaky tactics by both police and prosecutors. On that point I agree. 

The made on the spot excuses are, if anything, an example of what really lays at the base of the whole idea that those two men are the victims of a large scale conspiracy; just make stuff up as you go along and hey presto everything supports the idea.
For example when DiscoDan asked why they didn't bring the DNA expert to testify:

Made up excuse: "Oh that's because the court would never allow a witness (let a lone a foreign) witness to testify against RTP procedures!"
Of course, of course... except they did call Andy Hall to accuse the police, among other things, of systematically using torture against migrant workers. I guess pointing supposed errors on the handling and processing of evidence is not as incendiary as accusing them of torturing people willy-nilly.
 

It's like an insane game of Chinese Whispers, someone comes up with some harebrained speculation and as it's picked up by someone else and goes around the grapevine it morphs into a "fact" or solid argument while in reality it's nothing else than speculation and unsupported assumptions piled up one on top of the other. Then we end up with the status now, that "everyone knows" things that just aren't true.

[smedly]

until they produce the original dna they claim to have tested it is all worthless and useless - it is as simple as that 

 

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/947027-koh-tao-murder-dna-and-saving-face-–-forensic-examinations-uk-ltd/

[glenmohr]

21 minutes ago, AleG said:

The made on the spot excuses are, if anything, an example of what really lays at the base of the whole idea that those two men are the victims of a large scale conspiracy; just make stuff up as you go along and hey presto everything supports the idea.
For example when DiscoDan asked why they didn't bring the DNA expert to testify:

Made up excuse: "Oh that's because the court would never allow a witness (let a lone a foreign) witness to testify against RTP procedures!"
Of course, of course... except they did call Andy Hall to accuse the police, among other things, of systematically using torture against migrant workers. I guess pointing supposed errors on the handling and processing of evidence is not as incendiary as accusing them of torturing people willy-nilly.
 

It's like an insane game of Chinese Whispers, someone comes up with some harebrained speculation and as it's picked up by someone else and goes around the grapevine it morphs into a "fact" or solid argument while in reality it's nothing else than speculation and unsupported assumptions piled up one on top of the other. Then we end up with the status now, that "everyone knows" things that just aren't true.

We were told that Aleg was coming and he has come, that much is true 

 

Some questions that puzzle me because they are extraordinary events that need some examination: Also we must all acknowledge that given the state of the  strange nature of this case it will stay in the news until it is resolved by natural justice, as S. Terry has already explained, the day of justice in this case is some way off yet.

 

1)Why was it necessary for the B2 to arrange for the sudden transfer of Lt Gen Panya Mamen after he had all but completed his investigations?

 

2)Why was it necessary for the B2 to arrange for Sean MacAnna to be heavily threatened and then allowed to leave the island a free man?

 

3) Why was it necessary for the B2 to organise the very  real threats against the defense lawyers, the human rights activists and other supporters of justice at trial time, bearing in mind that many news organisations discovered that all suitable interpreters at the court  had been warned off about assisting at the trial 

 

4)) Why was it necessary for the B2 to arrange for tampering with DNA evidence causing it to be lost, used up, mis labelled ,  misrecorded and misplaced?

 

5) By what strange twist of human progress caused these 2 innocent young men with no motive,  no previous record, no physical  ability ,   caused them to suddenly, and completely  out of character,  turn into monsters with no remorse   or human feelings?

 

I will await Aleg's advice, as word on the street is that only he can sort it out.

 

It is the nature of the ongoing threats , the further unexplained murder/ suicides, the unwillingness of the mafia family to assist in any way in resolving a solution based on justice,that marks this case as being very newsworthy for years to come.

 

Please note that there is  almost no other murder case in the World that is attracting so much interest from fair minded people and human rights activists and  that makes it such a mystery, we all know something is not right  

[glenmohr]

On 10/3/2016 at 2:51 PM, glenmohr said:

We are pounding the table Grubster, but no Thai can hear us.

 

I am reliably informed that there are special hearing clinics being set  up around the Kingdom to attend this hearing problem 

[balo]

 
Editing posts to alter the context of what was written is against the forum rules. My point was that Woraphan Tuvichien changed his story about his son's whereabouts. You edited that out.

And that was only reported in a local media channel, maybe the journalist got it wrong the first time, maybe dad did not know where his son was at the time. We have all seen the cctv footage from Bangkok so my money is on he were at the University.

[Khun Han]

3 hours ago, greenchair said:

 

1. The court records state, there is mixed dna from the back end. Dna from 1 person in the front. 

Everyone is agreeable on that issue, although not agreeable who it belongs. 

2.Zaw Lin story is the one AH and Wei Phyo cling to when in fact their story is quite different. 

Zaw Lin got drunk on beach,went home to sleep. All they had on him was mixed dna with no back up evidence of any kind. I think it would not be enough to convict him. But wp left his belongings at the beach. Went back to the beach at 4 am. After sleeping only 1 -2 hours. Had possession of the victims phone. Dna was not mixed, easier to test by the machine. 

Lied on several occasions. It's possible the he was involved in the murders when he went back to the beach. I vaguely remember an article that said one of them was offered to let go, but he wanted to stay with his friend. Way back when they were first arrested. 

 

The RTP claimed there was saliva DNA in a bite mark on Hannah's chest. Is that the 'front' DNA to which you are referring? Or is that particular police DNA find claim just to be forgotten about now?

[smedly]

for those that would like to expand their understanding of this debacle there are lots of articles  that cannot be linked too here on TVF and offer some insight in great detail from experts that were involved in this case and from some expert observers, much better and more accurate accounts  than to read the nonsense deflections and pure lies coming from certain posters on this forum

 

use google......very simple

[Khun Han]

9 hours ago, smedly said:

as for DNA since it has been brought up again

 

replicated DNA that was being offered to the defense for retesting is not an original sample, there is no way to tell if this dna came from slaiva - sperm - blood etc it has already been processed and extracted, it is absolutly usless to make a confirmation match in a criminal case, a criminal case involves matching dna from a crime scene to an accused, i.e. 2 sets of dna to be compared from two sources, extracted or processed dna could be from the same sample i.e. the accused saliva

 

It would be like taking another saliva sample from the B2 and comparing it with a saliva sample taken earlier - absolutely useless at proving anything

 

This is why I keep repeating (and certain people keep ignoring)that in order to do a confirmation dna retest,

 

************only the original samples taken from the victim can be used************

 

No actual physical DNA evidence was presented, no actual original samples were made available to either the court or the defence - THIS MAKES IT INADMISSABLE

A simplistic example of something similar -
- Police say they test a handgun they found in the accused possession and it is a ballistic match to the bullet that killed a murder victim.
- The defence say we don't believe you we want to test that evidence ourselves
- Oh sorry we don't have the gun or bullet anymore
- court rules the evidence as inadmissible ..............................end of case

It really is as simple as that, police cannot simply make claims about physical evidence without producing it, and that accounts for pretty much everything - cctv - weapons - dna - various samples , IT COVERS ALL "PHYSICAL" EVIDENCE...............NO EXCEPTIONS
 

 

The offer from the prosecution of providing processed DNA was a ploy and the defence obviously under advisement - declined

 

but they should have made more of this and demanded the original samples even though a prosecution witness had already testified they no longer existed and shortly after that we had the police chief claiming they still had them, where are they lol

 

The whole thing is comical from start to finish

 

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/thailand-backpackers-murders-defence-lawyers-given-access-evidence-dna-tests-1512330

 

Also, another dodgy claim by RTP defenders on here is that the crime scene DNA profiles were done and dusted in a few hours on Sept 17. Notwithstanding the fact that the RTP autopsies started at 11am that day, and there were mixed samples to analyse, the documents presented to the trial court were dated Oct 05!

[Khun Han]

"So front passage is referring to crevice 1"

 

Ah, so the saliva DNA that the RTP claim to have found in a bite mark on Hannah's chest is to be written out of the script now, is it? Must be because the Norfolk coroner, Jacqueline Lake, stated in her autopsy report that there was no bite mark, heh?

[shillhater]

 but he can and does know the true facts based on reliable sources so when coming up with codswallop about this case please remember we know things too.  ..you are a very good comedian green chair.

[Rimmer]

Some entire posts have been removed because the person changed the name of the person he was replying to. Do it again in this manner and you will be going on holiday.

[DiscoDan]

5 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/thailand-backpackers-murders-defence-lawyers-given-access-evidence-dna-tests-1512330

 

Also, another dodgy claim by RTP defenders on here is that the crime scene DNA profiles were done and dusted in a few hours on Sept 17. Notwithstanding the fact that the RTP autopsies started at 11am that day, and there were mixed samples to analyse, the documents presented to the trial court were dated Oct 05!

Khun Han is trying to muddy the waters again match was made in a few hours and it was one of Andy's activists that wrote that on their FB Hannah was murdered on the 15th dna results came back on 17th that's a couple of days not hours.

 

[Khun Han]

2 minutes ago, DiscoDan said:

Khun Han is trying to muddy the waters again match was made in a few hours and it was one of Andy's activists that wrote that on their FB Hannah was murdered on the 15th dna results came back on 17th that's a couple of days not hours.

 

 

The autopsy started at 11am on the 17th. Can you explain to us how the mixed sample was extracted and processed? And why the date on the documents presented to trial court was 5th October?