Martial Law Lifted In 41 Provinces

[Tony Clifton]

In pracitce civil law under Thaksin was far more threatening than the current martial law. Let's understand that first, before going deep into mental speculations about all unlimited possibilities.

None of the 17 coups affected majority of population in any significant way, PARTICULARLY working class peasants. Just a quick reality check on your theory.

I didn't see Thaksin threatening to shut down this board if criticism was made of his governments policies. And I didn't see Thaksin bring in the troops to quash the PAD rallies.

Simply because there has been little resistance and therefore little confrontation does not mean that the threat is not there under martial law.

Re the past 17 coups not affecting the peasants.

You are quite right. They are still the dirt poor underclass of the country.

And their vote, even though they are the majority, still doesn't count.

They disrupted Democratic Party gatherings up North on many occasions. beating up a woman and old men at The World Plaza by hiring ex-cons to do the dirty work and wiping their criminal records clean, while the man in black was still supposed to be serving a sentence for selling yaba

There's more.

Thugs

Roughing up

Thais

What about the millions of people TRT had promised to bus down to the last scheduled PAD rally? The coup beat that one by a day if I remember well in order to avoid bloodshed and kick the TRT out.

Edited November 29, 2006 by Tony Clifton

[hammered]

Lets understand that martial law holds a lot more threats against civil liberty than under civil law.

In pracitce civil law under Thaksin was far more threatening than the current martial law. Let's understand that first, before going deep into mental speculations about all unlimited possibilities.

particularly working class peasants, who oppose the coup in principle, recognize that open resistance is futile against the military.... With something like 17 coups over the past 60 years, many people have learnt that the safest course of action is to keep a low profile when the military takes over government.

None of the 17 coups affected majority of population in any significant way, PARTICULARLY working class peasants. Just a quick reality check on your theory.

Exactly.

We should not forget that several thousand Thai citizens - mostly poor - were killed under the Thaksin regime. This is certainly more than were killed under any government in the 20 years I have been in Thailand. Even the Suchinda government, with its massacres, didnt kill as many.

So I dont think we need to carry on an intellectual level discussion about the perceived "threats" under martial law or rogue "democratic" rule. We can simply look at the evidence.

[Jai Dee]

Gen. Boonrawd expresses his concern in ending national problem

Defence Minister Gen. Boonrawd Somthas (บุญรอด สมทัศน์) expressed his worry in ending several big controversial issues plaguing the nation.

He said that he feels uneasy when he comes to the thought on the pressure and limitation in time, in dealing with national problems. He added that currently there are pressure coming from various organizations, against the Council of National Security (CNS). However, he said that he and the government are sincerely tackling the national problems and hope that peace will be brought along quickly, adding that time will prove his words.

As for security measures handling protests after the lifting of the martial law, he said that his ministry has already set measures in preparation for possible rallies. Nevertheless, he is confident that all movements will go in line with peacful manners.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 30 November 2006

[mitrapaap]

Seeing as I have nothing better to do I decided to make a Martial Law map.

I haven't bothered to check, but I assume that the majority of the areas where Martial Law will be retained in the yellow Provinces are border areas.

Great map, I love it. But Khon Kaen and Roy Et for example are on the list, but red on your map.

[ando]

Exactly.

We should not forget that several thousand Thai citizens - mostly poor - were killed under the Thaksin regime. This is certainly more than were killed under any government in the 20 years I have been in Thailand. Even the Suchinda government, with its massacres, didnt kill as many.

So I dont think we need to carry on an intellectual level discussion about the perceived "threats" under martial law or rogue "democratic" rule. We can simply look at the evidence.

I presume you are referring to Thaksins "war on drugs" ?

If so, I would add that the numbers of people actually killed in that bloody campaign does not does not indicate the same level of suppression of civil liberties to the general population as martial law. The so called war on drugs (shocking as it was), was certainly not aimed at crushing the wishes of the majority of voters or ousting a democratically elected government. Comparing the numbers of dead is not a very accurate way of gauging the overall level of threat to the general population. Two completely issues. One affecting the free political expression of the majority of voters, and one affecting those involved in the drug trade.

[sriracha john]

perhaps we could compare the lengths of martial law, eg. 33 months for Thaksin and 2 for the current administration.

[ando]

In pracitce civil law under Thaksin was far more threatening than the current martial law. Let's understand that first, before going deep into mental speculations about all unlimited possibilities.

None of the 17 coups affected majority of population in any significant way, PARTICULARLY working class peasants. Just a quick reality check on your theory.

I didn't see Thaksin threatening to shut down this board if criticism was made of his governments policies. And I didn't see Thaksin bring in the troops to quash the PAD rallies.

Simply because there has been little resistance and therefore little confrontation does not mean that the threat is not there under martial law.

Re the past 17 coups not affecting the peasants.

You are quite right. They are still the dirt poor underclass of the country.

And their vote, even though they are the majority, still doesn't count.

They disrupted Democratic Party gatherings up North on many occasions. beating up a woman and old men at The World Plaza by hiring ex-cons to do the dirty work and wiping their criminal records clean, while the man in black was still supposed to be serving a sentence for selling yaba

There's more.

Thugs

Roughing up

Thais

What about the millions of people TRT had promised to bus down to the last scheduled PAD rally? The coup beat that one by a day if I remember well in order to avoid bloodshed and kick the TRT out.

I hardly think your examples above stack up against tanks and armed soldiers in the streets, overthrow of the government and the imposition of martial law.

[ando]

perhaps we could compare the lengths of martial law, eg. 33 months for Thaksin and 2 for the current administration.

Where?

[konangrit]

Seeing as I have nothing better to do I decided to make a Martial Law map.

I haven't bothered to check, but I assume that the majority of the areas where Martial Law will be retained in the yellow Provinces are border areas.

Great map, I love it. But Khon Kaen and Roy Et for example are on the list, but red on your map.

Thanks, it's a list of Provinces where Martial Law will be retained, so they're supposed to be red.

[konangrit]

perhaps we could compare the lengths of martial law, eg. 33 months for Thaksin and 2 for the current administration.

Where?

Thailand, although some of that was under Emergency Decree, which was basically the same as Martial Law.

Edited November 30, 2006 by konangrit

[pumpuiman]

Lets understand that martial law holds a lot more threats against civil liberty than under civil law.

In pracitce civil law under Thaksin was far more threatening than the current martial law. Let's understand that first, before going deep into mental speculations about all unlimited possibilities.

particularly working class peasants, who oppose the coup in principle, recognize that open resistance is futile against the military.... With something like 17 coups over the past 60 years, many people have learnt that the safest course of action is to keep a low profile when the military takes over government.

None of the 17 coups affected majority of population in any significant way, PARTICULARLY working class peasants. Just a quick reality check on your theory.

Exactly.

We should not forget that several thousand Thai citizens - mostly poor - were killed under the Thaksin regime. This is certainly more than were killed under any government in the 20 years I have been in Thailand. Even the Suchinda government, with its massacres, didnt kill as many.

So I dont think we need to carry on an intellectual level discussion about the perceived "threats" under martial law or rogue "democratic" rule. We can simply look at the evidence.

Yes, look at the evidence, YOU ARE UNDER MARTIAL LAW, YOUR RIGHTS HAVE BEEN SUSPENDED.

And god forbid those ###### smart people start talking about it.

Thaksin sucked. This situation sucks. They are not the only options.Why do you speak as if this is the only solution? You believe the military can decide what is good for you? Not the people?

[sriracha john]

In pracitce civil law under Thaksin was far more threatening than the current martial law. Let's understand that first, before going deep into mental speculations about all unlimited possibilities.

None of the 17 coups affected majority of population in any significant way, PARTICULARLY working class peasants. Just a quick reality check on your theory.

I didn't see Thaksin threatening to shut down this board if criticism was made of his governments policies. And I didn't see Thaksin bring in the troops to quash the PAD rallies.

Simply because there has been little resistance and therefore little confrontation does not mean that the threat is not there under martial law.

Re the past 17 coups not affecting the peasants.

You are quite right. They are still the dirt poor underclass of the country.

And their vote, even though they are the majority, still doesn't count.

They disrupted Democratic Party gatherings up North on many occasions. beating up a woman and old men at The World Plaza by hiring ex-cons to do the dirty work and wiping their criminal records clean, while the man in black was still supposed to be serving a sentence for selling yaba

There's more.

Thugs

Roughing up

Thais

What about the millions of people TRT had promised to bus down to the last scheduled PAD rally? The coup beat that one by a day if I remember well in order to avoid bloodshed and kick the TRT out.

I hardly think your examples above stack up against tanks and armed soldiers in the streets, overthrow of the government and the imposition of martial law.

I agree. The damage from Pro-Thaksin agitators at Central World Plaza

was far more damaging than the tanks in the streets.

[sriracha john]

perhaps we could compare the lengths of martial law, eg. 33 months for Thaksin and 2 for the current administration.

Where?

Signatures sought to end martial law

Published on Mar 1, 2004

The Nation

Senator Thongbai Thongpao yesterday called on the government to lift martial law in three southern border provinces, while a group of Muslim lawyers is gathering 50,000 signatures to file a petition against the imposition of martial law. Thongbai said martial law had been in place for nearly two months but had failed to prevent terrorist attacks.

[ando]

Martial law declared in 3 war torn provinces in the far south that are racked with terrorist bombings and murders is hardly a fair comparison with ousting of the democratically elected government and the imposition of martial law over the whole country.

[konangrit]

Martial law declared in 3 war torn provinces in the far south that are racked with terrorist bombings and murders is hardly a fair comparison with ousting of the democratically elected government and the imposition of martial law over the whole country.

They weren't "war torn provinces in the far south that are racked with terrorist bombings and murders" under Martial Law before Thaksin came to power.

[ando]

In pracitce civil law under Thaksin was far more threatening than the current martial law. Let's understand that first, before going deep into mental speculations about all unlimited possibilities.

None of the 17 coups affected majority of population in any significant way, PARTICULARLY working class peasants. Just a quick reality check on your theory.

I didn't see Thaksin threatening to shut down this board if criticism was made of his governments policies. And I didn't see Thaksin bring in the troops to quash the PAD rallies.

Simply because there has been little resistance and therefore little confrontation does not mean that the threat is not there under martial law.

Re the past 17 coups not affecting the peasants.

You are quite right. They are still the dirt poor underclass of the country.

And their vote, even though they are the majority, still doesn't count.

They disrupted Democratic Party gatherings up North on many occasions. beating up a woman and old men at The World Plaza by hiring ex-cons to do the dirty work and wiping their criminal records clean, while the man in black was still supposed to be serving a sentence for selling yaba

There's more.

Thugs

Roughing up

Thais

What about the millions of people TRT had promised to bus down to the last scheduled PAD rally? The coup beat that one by a day if I remember well in order to avoid bloodshed and kick the TRT out.

I hardly think your examples above stack up against tanks and armed soldiers in the streets, overthrow of the government and the imposition of martial law.

I agree. The damage from Pro-Thaksin agitators at Central World Plaza

was far more damaging than the tanks in the streets.

Yes my dear friend, those tanks were there only there for show and those guns the soldiers were carrying had only blanks in the magazines. There was never any threat to the people who might have opposed a military take over of the elected government. Certainly the risk of a bloody nose or a bruise on the cheek is a much greater threat to civil liberties than armed soldiers and tanks on the streets.

Wake up and face the facts. 64 million Thailanders cant be wrong. But of course you know better.

[sriracha john]

Martial law declared in 3 war torn provinces in the far south that are racked with terrorist bombings and murders is hardly a fair comparison with ousting of the democratically elected government and the imposition of martial law over the whole country.

It wasn't a democratically elected government... the Courts invalidated the election. Guess Thaksin screwed up when he dissolved Parliament, huh?

[sriracha john]

In pracitce civil law under Thaksin was far more threatening than the current martial law. Let's understand that first, before going deep into mental speculations about all unlimited possibilities.

None of the 17 coups affected majority of population in any significant way, PARTICULARLY working class peasants. Just a quick reality check on your theory.

I didn't see Thaksin threatening to shut down this board if criticism was made of his governments policies. And I didn't see Thaksin bring in the troops to quash the PAD rallies.

Simply because there has been little resistance and therefore little confrontation does not mean that the threat is not there under martial law.

Re the past 17 coups not affecting the peasants.

You are quite right. They are still the dirt poor underclass of the country.

And their vote, even though they are the majority, still doesn't count.

They disrupted Democratic Party gatherings up North on many occasions. beating up a woman and old men at The World Plaza by hiring ex-cons to do the dirty work and wiping their criminal records clean, while the man in black was still supposed to be serving a sentence for selling yaba

There's more.

Thugs

Roughing up

Thais

What about the millions of people TRT had promised to bus down to the last scheduled PAD rally? The coup beat that one by a day if I remember well in order to avoid bloodshed and kick the TRT out.

I hardly think your examples above stack up against tanks and armed soldiers in the streets, overthrow of the government and the imposition of martial law.

I agree. The damage from Pro-Thaksin agitators at Central World Plaza

was far more damaging than the tanks in the streets.

Yes my dear friend, those tanks were there only there for show and those guns the soldiers were carrying had only blanks in the magazines. There was never any threat to the people who might have opposed a military take over of the elected government. Certainly the risk of a bloody nose or a bruise on the cheek is a much greater threat to civil liberties than armed soldiers and tanks on the streets.

Wake up and face the facts. 64 million Thailanders cant be wrong. But of course you know better.

You speak for 64 million Thais now? :D

btw, how many people were injured in the time the tanks and soldiers were on the streets?

.... errr... better qualify that. How many people were injured by something other than a self-inflicted injury during the time tanks and soldiers were on the streets?

A few questions. How has the implementation of martial law impacted your life here in Thailand? What specifically are you having to do differently? What restrictions are placed on you here that weren't there before?

Edited November 30, 2006 by sriracha john

[hammered]

Exactly.

We should not forget that several thousand Thai citizens - mostly poor - were killed under the Thaksin regime. This is certainly more than were killed under any government in the 20 years I have been in Thailand. Even the Suchinda government, with its massacres, didnt kill as many.

So I dont think we need to carry on an intellectual level discussion about the perceived "threats" under martial law or rogue "democratic" rule. We can simply look at the evidence.

I presume you are referring to Thaksins "war on drugs" ?

If so, I would add that the numbers of people actually killed in that bloody campaign does not does not indicate the same level of suppression of civil liberties to the general population as martial law. The so called war on drugs (shocking as it was), was certainly not aimed at crushing the wishes of the majority of voters or ousting a democratically elected government. Comparing the numbers of dead is not a very accurate way of gauging the overall level of threat to the general population. Two completely issues. One affecting the free political expression of the majority of voters, and one affecting those involved in the drug trade.

Of course there are other oprions to any situation in theory, but here we must deal with reality.

We had an elected if not democratic government that killed thousands, and to my mind being killed is the ultimate loss of freedom or human right. Judging how bad a governemtn is based on the number of its own citizens slaughtered seems like a fair measure to me.

Oh and by the way I dont why people assume I am talking about the only the drug slaughters. A cursory check of Thailands human rights record relating to deaths usually includes more than just the victims of the drug war who seem to be written off by western posters as being involved in the drug trade when they didnt even get a trial. Even Mr. Thakisn will get a trial if indicted which is more than those killed under his regime got (both so called drug dealers and others), which again brings us back to comparative measures where the present unelected government are trying to use a legal framework to prosecute wrong doers even though it is causing them many problems in that it takes a long time to take things to court and go through the process. Mr. Thaksin didnt even bother with the law stuff. One guarantee of freedom of expression is that the rule of law applies.

[Plus]

I bet 60 million Thais out of total 64 don't care about the martial law one way or another.

How about Hat Yai brutal police crackdown on peaceful protesters a few years ago? Do you remember that? Those protesters have far more rights now than they had under Thaksin.

Media shut downs - that was under Thaksin, not under the the martial law.

[Plus]

You believe the military can decide what is good for you? Not the people?

Which people? The thugs that blockaded The Nation's offices, the thugs that beat up Democrat party leaders? The thugs that beat up elderly men right in the heart of Bangkok in full view of the media?

I have far more trust in the current generals than in those "people".

[younghusband]

You believe the military can decide what is good for you? Not the people?

Which people? The thugs that blockaded The Nation's offices, the thugs that beat up Democrat party leaders? The thugs that beat up elderly men right in the heart of Bangkok in full view of the media?

I have far more trust in the current generals than in those "people".

Come on you can do better than that.Obviously he wasn't referring to those thugs but to the Thai people as a whole.General Surayud himself recognises that military interference in politics is in principle wrong and looks for an early return to democracy.I have more respect for the PM, a man of honour, than the creepy farangs -we all know who they are- who bombard the forum with their obsessive anti-Thaksin posts and are completely oblivious to the loss of civil liberties.They would have been at home in Vichy France.

[Plus]

True, he referred to people in general, not the thugs. The problem was that the thugs were effectively the law, hired by the government elected by the "majority". I don't believe elections truly represented people's will, but that's another topic.

I said that right after the coup - people failed Thailand. There wasn't any soul searcing, however, like "What have we done if the army had to take over, and be applauded for that?" I think Thailand is like a bunch of children who went too far in their games and can't stop themselves. When the parents/teachers step in and clear the mess, they generally feel thankful. Maybe there's less fun, but they like the order, too.

[ColPyat]

True, he referred to people in general, not the thugs. The problem was that the thugs were effectively the law, hired by the government elected by the "majority". I don't believe elections truly represented people's will, but that's another topic.

I said that right after the coup - people failed Thailand. There wasn't any soul searcing, however, like "What have we done if the army had to take over, and be applauded for that?" I think Thailand is like a bunch of children who went too far in their games and can't stop themselves. When the parents/teachers step in and clear the mess, they generally feel thankful. Maybe there's less fun, but they like the order, too.

I am trying to stay here with simplistic metaphors you seem to enjoy dwelling in.

Looking at the huge gap in wealth between the rich and poor in Thailand, in fact one of the highest in the whole of Asia, i would tend to state that the "parents" have shamelesly exploited the "children" since decades, and hindered them from growing up as it is so much more convenient playing parents forever, and benefitting from this selfserving position.

Oh god, horrible, one day the "children" might not need the "parents" anymore...

[mitrapaap]

What are the rules for martial law in Thailand?

I have not seen any difference to the way of life or any restricted movement

So why is there martial law in place?

Agree with you, but I'm less wondering why it is in place, I wonder why everybody behaves as if it was the end of democracy, justice and the constitution? As you said, there is no difference to the way of life, so what is all the fuss about it? And for one more time, this is a Thai internal affair, it's not the business and or duty of the U.S. or any other goverment to comment on it or even impose actions/restrictions and ask for changes. What would the neo-indians or the british say if Thailand started to critisize their way of ruling their country?

[sriracha john]

What are the rules for martial law in Thailand?

I have not seen any difference to the way of life or any restricted movement

So why is there martial law in place?

Agree with you, but I'm less wondering why it is in place, I wonder why everybody behaves as if it was the end of democracy, justice and the constitution? As you said, there is no difference to the way of life, so what is all the fuss about it? And for one more time, this is a Thai internal affair, it's not the business and or duty of the U.S. or any other goverment to comment on it or even impose actions/restrictions and ask for changes. What would the neo-indians or the british say if Thailand started to critisize their way of ruling their country?

Careful now.... some poster might say you must be "completely oblivious to the loss of civil liberties." Also, at least one poster would say that you "would have been at home in Vichy France."

[mitrapaap]

What are the rules for martial law in Thailand?

I have not seen any difference to the way of life or any restricted movement

So why is there martial law in place?

Agree with you, but I'm less wondering why it is in place, I wonder why everybody behaves as if it was the end of democracy, justice and the constitution? As you said, there is no difference to the way of life, so what is all the fuss about it? And for one more time, this is a Thai internal affair, it's not the business and or duty of the U.S. or any other goverment to comment on it or even impose actions/restrictions and ask for changes. What would the neo-indians or the british say if Thailand started to critisize their way of ruling their country?

Careful now.... some poster might say you must be "completely oblivious to the loss of civil liberties." Also, at least one poster would say that you "would have been at home in Vichy France."

No problem, I'm getting used not to be part of the majority who is just bashing on this country and their people. What I probably never will get used to is the white arrogance who knows everything better than anybody else - most of the time because they have never understood anything else than themselvers. Anyhow thanks for your comment, it made me laugh

[ColPyat]

No problem, I'm getting used not to be part of the majority who is just bashing on this country and their people. What I probably never will get used to is the white arrogance who knows everything better than anybody else - most of the time because they have never understood anything else than themselvers. Anyhow thanks for your comment, it made me laugh

This is one of the most racist comments i have read here so far.

Not agreeing with the reasons for the coup and the martial law has nothing to do with "white arrogance bashing Thailand and its people". There are many Thais who disagree strongly with the coup, and many eminent Thai academics, most anti Thaksin while it was still fashion with todays Thaksin opponents to be on his side, have publically stated their anti coup position, people such as Tongchai Winitchakul or Giles Ungpakorn.

Do their views make them "white arrogance" as well?

Edited November 30, 2006 by ColPyat

[Plus]

True, he referred to people in general, not the thugs. The problem was that the thugs were effectively the law, hired by the government elected by the "majority". I don't believe elections truly represented people's will, but that's another topic.

I said that right after the coup - people failed Thailand. There wasn't any soul searcing, however, like "What have we done if the army had to take over, and be applauded for that?" I think Thailand is like a bunch of children who went too far in their games and can't stop themselves. When the parents/teachers step in and clear the mess, they generally feel thankful. Maybe there's less fun, but they like the order, too.

I am trying to stay here with simplistic metaphors you seem to enjoy dwelling in.

Looking at the huge gap in wealth between the rich and poor in Thailand, in fact one of the highest in the whole of Asia, i would tend to state that the "parents" have shamelesly exploited the "children" since decades, and hindered them from growing up as it is so much more convenient playing parents forever, and benefitting from this selfserving position.

Oh god, horrible, one day the "children" might not need the "parents" anymore...

Culturally I don't think Thais would grow into "we don't need parents anymore" adults, no matter how satisfying it would be to you personally.

Thaksin was a teenager, and an adopted kid who started stealing from daddy's safe when daddy wasn't looking.

Juvenile crime, got off lightly.

[Plus]

Not agreeing with the reasons for the coup and the martial law has nothing to do with "white arrogance bashing Thailand and its people".

He probably meant some posters here whose reasons for protesting the coup are not quite the same as Thai academics'. Some views on the martial law are very white-centric, assuming that if martial law in my culture means this and that, then it's automatically the same in Thailand.

I don't think Mitrapab was being racist. He's probably "white" himself.