Thai equivalent of Oxford English Dictionary

[Wopanese]

Is there a Thai dictionary which is equal in comprehensiveness and descriptive to the OED that Thai scholars and Thai students use?

[tgeezer]

There is the พจนานุกรมกบับราชบัณฑิตสถาน which is referred to as RID or RSD which is on-line in its most up to date form I think. It is the official dictionary for use by officials of the state. Often quoted to justify the meanings of words.



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[Oxx]

In short, no.  The most authoritative dictionary is the RID, but its etymology is very weak.  It's also poor for neologisms, though there is a three volume supplement of "New Words".  The compilers (a group of rather elderly but highly distinguished men) is very conservative in its approach.

 

You can access an "easy to use" version of the RID at http://thai-notes.com/dictionaries/RIDictionary.shtml

 

The official version is at http://www.royin.go.th/dictionary/

[tgeezer]

What do you mean by weak etymology in the RID Oxx? What should I be looking for which isn't there?


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[BudRight]

Thailand does not have an Oxford.

[Oxx]

7 hours ago, tgeezer said:

What do you mean by weak etymology in the RID Oxx? What should I be looking for which isn't there?

 

(1)  A relatively small proportion of words actually has any etymology.  Just picking a few random words that are almost certainly imports:  ฝนซู่, ฟกช้ำ, ฮ่อม - none of them has any etymology.

 

(2) The etymology is simply limited to the language the word came from, plus sometimes the pronunciation of the word in that language.  There's no history provide of how the word has evolved from the original source.

 

(3) There's no etymology at all provided for Thai words.

 

Looking at a typical etymology for an English word (in this case "rain") you'll see something like:

 

rain (n) before 900; (noun) Middle English rein; Old English regn, rēn, cognate with Dutch, German regen, Old Norse regn, Gothic rign; (v.) Middle English reinen, Old English regnian

 

or (different source):

 

Old English regn "rain," from Proto-Germanic *regna- (source also of Old Saxon regan, Old Frisian rein, Middle Dutch reghen, Dutch regen, German regen, Old Norse regn, Gothic rign "rain"), with no certain cognates outside Germanic, unless it is from a presumed PIE *reg- "moist, wet," which may be the source of Latin rigare "to wet, moisten" (see irrigate). Rain dance is from 1867; rain date in listings for outdoor events is from 1948. To know enough to come in out of the rain (usually with a negative) is from 1590s. Rainshower is Old English renscur.

[tgeezer]

Ah, I see what you mean. I assume that since the language is acknowledged to have been formalised relatively recently, Thai linguists are comparable to English linguists a long time 'before 900' . I don't doubt that etymology of 'original words' could be made up in the future but it would be no more than a curiosity to people like me.

I am interested in your opinion on how you see ฝนซ้ำ as not original Thai.
I see two words ฝน =rain and ซู่, ซู่ ๆ =heavy short lived shower. There is a type of etymology which I make up for myself because my RID does not classify ซู่, as น. or ว. So should it be ซู่ ๆ urging someone to recognise the situation or should it be a noun when used alone and an adjective when modifying ฝน?
The other approach is to say that ฝนซู่ is original Thai and the entry in the dictionary is there because people leave out ฝน but I don't like that because Thai is basically a 'single syllable' language.
If I couldn't read, I could make it ฝนสู้ meaning that the rain is opposing all my attempts to combat it.
Incidentally I found out when looking for the origin of Thai to make my post more erudite, in which I realise I failed, that it is National Thai language day on the 29th of this month.




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[tgeezer]

I have just come across something which proves your point: ชาติพันธ์ุ ... (อ. ethnos) Curious to know the 'English' word, I found that ethnos is not in my dictionary except as the origin of ethnic.


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[tifino]

I was put onto a very helpful replacement;

 a transliteration (both ways)softcover,

and it is primarily aimed at the Thai person. 

 

With this in hand,a Thai can then Interface, from the thai - directly with the real thing:

 

From Dokya Group Publishing

ISBN 974-931-086-1

 

 

ภาษาอังกฤษสำหรับผู้เริ่มต้นจนพูดได้คุยเป็น  ผู้เขียน/ผู้แปล: ฝ่ายวิชาการสำนักพิมพ์  ISBN: 974-931-086-1  ราคาจำหน่าย: 280.00 บาท รายละเอียด

 

translated

 

English for beginners, as I say, is the author / speaker: Academic Press,  ISBN: 974-931-086-1  Price: 280.00 baht  details.

 

it is nothing in comparison to the power of what an Oxford covers - more like a water buffalo

 

 

[Oxx]

12 hours ago, tgeezer said:

I have just come across something which proves your point: ชาติพันธ์ุ ... (อ. ethnos) Curious to know the 'English' word, I found that ethnos is not in my dictionary except as the origin of ethnic.

 

Ethnos is an obscure English word.  However, let's start with "ethnic".  In Thai "ethnic" is เกี่ยวกับชาติพันธุ์, meaning "relating to a population subgroup with a common cultural tradition".

 

Ethnos then means "an ethnic group".  The plural is either "ethnoses" or "ethne".  So, for example, within Thailand there are various ethnoses/ethne such as the Hmong, Karen, Lao, Lahu and Chinese.

[Oxx]

18 hours ago, tgeezer said:

I am interested in your opinion on how you see ฝนซ้ำ as not original Thai.

 

It was a mistake.  I'd thought that ฝ didn't occur in the Ramkhamhaeng inscription.  It does.

 

Incidentally, does anyone know where I can find online a copy of the inscription in modern Thai as text (not as an image)? 

[tgeezer]

 
Ethnos is an obscure English word.  However, let's start with "ethnic".  In Thai "ethnic" is เกี่ยวกับชาติพันธุ์, meaning "relating to a population subgroup with a common cultural tradition".
 
Ethnos then means "an ethnic group".  The plural is either "ethnoses" or "ethne".  So, for example, within Thailand there are various ethnoses/ethne such as the Hmong, Karen, Lao, Lahu and Chinese.

I must say that this stretches my credibility somewhat, the way to show plural in English is to add 's' . How many English languages are there?


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[Oxx]

8 minutes ago, tgeezer said:

I must say that this stretches my credibility somewhat, the way to show plural in English is to add 's' . How many English languages are there?

 

Oh dear! We make English very, very difficult to discourage foreigners from attempting to use it.

 

There are plenty of ways of forming plurals that don't involve adding "s".

 

Ox - oxen

Cactus - cacti

Axis - axes

Bureau - bureaux

Child - children

Datum - data

Deer - deer

Goose - geese

Mouse - mice

 

Quite often we refer back to the original language for the plural form.  That's why the plural of "ethos" can be "ethne" (following the Greek form) but also "ethnoses" (following more normal English form).

[metisdead]

An off topic post has been removed. 

[tgeezer]

The irregular plurals which you quote Oxx are all in my dictionary, a distinction not shared by the word ethnos, so I can't add anything more to the topic thread.


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[Maestro]

I have a feeling that the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) referred to by the OP and Oxx is not quite the same as your Oxford dictionary or mine. I do not own the OED nor am I subscribed to its online version or otherwise have access to it. Anyway, discussing the plural of ethnos is taking us off topic.

 

So let this be the end of the discussion of the plural of ethnos and use another example for etymology in the definition of a word in a dictionary, from dictionary.com, to illustrate what is meant with etymology:

 

 

(The OED gives of course a lengthier and more detailed etymology)

[DavidHouston]

BTW, let's acknowledge two wonderful books by Simon Winchester on the Oxford English Dictionary: "The Professor and the Madman" and "The Meaning of Everything, The Story of the Oxford English Dictionary". The books are eminently readable and are, in fact, great fun. The initial ten volumes of the dictionary took almost 50 years to complete. One may readily agree that the production of this dictionary (both that which has been complete and that which is currently ongoing) is one of the great accomplishments of Western civilization. 

 

Were such a project be done today, computers and data technology would allow for much more rapid process. I believe that the Royal Society Dictionary could improve its etymological content by seeking to link much of its Sanskrit and Pali sourced words with one or more of the computer-based Sanskrit dictionaries. The same is true for the Khmer- and Chinese-sourced words. I further believe that were the members of the Royal Society interested in doing so, funding could be found to get the project done.  

 

What are your thoughts?

Edited October 12, 2016 by DavidHouston

[tgeezer]

The O.P's question qualifies the publication referred to with "Thai scholars and Thai students use". My experience of language students is limited but I thought that the RID was likely to be the answer. Having looked at the sample page of the OED from Maestro's link which I have trouble appreciating since the language is barely recognisable and considered David's contribution, I would say that if the OP was capable of reading such a tome in Thai he wouldn't be asking the question.


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[bark]

On 9/10/2559 at 1:17 AM, BudRight said:

Thailand does not have an Oxford.

Yes they do.

It is called Water buffalo dictionary.  Popular in Esan, I am told.

[Beats56]

Down load the Thaidict app. Type in the English word and get the Thai translation with the tones and descriptions. Hit speaker button and will say the word in Thai. Great app. I use it all the time.

[Oxx]

15 minutes ago, Beats56 said:

Down load the Thaidict app. Type in the English word and get the Thai translation with the tones and descriptions. Hit speaker button and will say the word in Thai. Great app. I use it all the time.

 

Let's be honest, not remotely comparable with the Oxford English Dictionary, and really of very limited use to anyone other than a beginner learning Thai.

[applepie16]

Another app suggestion that agglomerates several sources (though again with little etymology):  ทั้งหมดพจนานุกรมภาษาอังกฤษ. Available from Play Store.

[Oxx]

6 minutes ago, applepie16 said:

Another app suggestion that agglomerates several sources (though again with little etymology):  ทั้งหมดพจนานุกรมภาษาอังกฤษ. Available from Play Store.

 

Totally off topic.  This topic is about THAI dictionaries, not ENGLISH ones.

[applepie16]

16 minutes ago, Oxx said:

 

Totally off topic.  This topic is about THAI dictionaries, not ENGLISH ones.

 

It has both. Look before you leap.

[Oxx]

43 minutes ago, applepie16 said:

 

It has both. Look before you leap.

 

Are you aware what "ภาษาอังกฤษ" in means in "ทั้งหมดพจนานุกรมภาษาอังกฤษ"?

[tgeezer]

 
Are you aware what "ภาษาอังกฤษ" in means in "ทั้งหมดพจนานุกรมภาษาอังกฤษ"?

It is difficult to understand for sure. It looks as though somebody wanted to say Complete English Dictionary and got it half wrong, ทั้งหมดอังกฤษภาษาพจนานุกรม would have made a better job of being wrong!
Does พจนานุกรมถาษาอังกฤษสมบูรณ์แบบ make sense?


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[Richard W]

On 09/10/2016 at 7:11 AM, tgeezer said:

Ah, I see what you mean. I assume that since the language is acknowledged to have been formalised relatively recently, Thai linguists are comparable to English linguists a long time 'before 900' .

So when do you think English was formalised?  I'd suggest around the time of Samuel Johnson's dictionary, only 250 years ago.  On the other hand, I suspect the amount of 'ancient' material (up to 700 years old) is pitiful.

 

Thai is clearly part of a larger family, probably going back a couple of thousand years.  Dimmer links can be seen with the great Austronesian family, though it's possible it was a source of loan words rather than part of the same family.  Some perceive an even deeper relationship of Austronesian with the great family containing Chinese, Tibetan and Burmese - this should not be confused with the enormous quantity of Chinese loans over many, many centuries in Thai, which have caused some people to believe that Thai belongs to the latter family.  The RID completely ignores the scholarship behind my statements.

[tgeezer]

I have no idea, I feel that expecting the RID to do more than ascribe origins of words more than it does is too much. The reference here to the OED shows how pointless the exercise is for everyday communication since today's meanings are often far different from their original meanings.
In answer to the original question, for the purpose of formal communication and as a basis for how people speak the RID is a good place to go, as a comparison with the OED for those initiated into the mysteries of ancient languages, probably not.


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[Beats56]

On 12/10/2016 at 4:10 PM, Oxx said:

 

Let's be honest, not remotely comparable with the Oxford English Dictionary, and really of very limited use to anyone other than a beginner learning Thai.

Have you even tried it?