May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Some posters still can't accept the result of the referendum. It is time to move on, accept the fact the UK is leaving the EU and start supporting your country. Whining and complaining10 months on is becoming boring, grasping onto any little bit of hope (usually from the BBC or Guardian) that the people made a mistake.  Project fear has already proven it was a lie.

We should have a general election!

[citybiker]

PMTM has called a snapped GE for June 8th.

Reluctantly done although she's made it clear the Westminster political game playing is frustrating her & she's seeking a clear coherent mandate.

Labour to implode ?
LD's wimper
SNP being a thorn
Problematic for UKIP's survival.


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[Grouse]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

In view of this comment ("only a battle, not the end of the war"), what do you think is going to be the result at the end of brexit negotiations?

No deal, crash out, slash corporation tax to 13%

 

(unless there's an election)

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

On the other hand.... mass immigration has resulted in low and stagnated wages for not only those at the bottom end of the scale, but also those in the middle income group.

 

Although (to look on the bright side ), its also resulted in far higher salaries for those at the top....

I've been banging on about high and increasing UK inequality for ages. Look at OECD Gini data for U.K. And USA and compare with happier countries. QED

[Grouse]

11 minutes ago, citybiker said:

PMTM has called a snapped GE for June 8th.

Reluctantly done although she's made it clear the Westminster political game playing is frustrating her & she's seeking a clear coherent mandate.

Labour to implode ?
LD's wimper
SNP being a thorn
Problematic for UKIP's survival.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Coalition?

 

Con Party and UKIP?

 

?

Edited April 18, 2017 by Grouse

[SheungWan]

5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Coalition?

 

Con Party and UKIP?

 

?

About as likely as UKIP and MRLP forming a coalition.

[Johnyo]

General Election = Power Grabbing by the Conservatives part 2.






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[AlexRich]

The General Election is all about strengthening May's hand ... taking advantage of Labour Party disarray to ensure that we have a right wing government to force through a hard Brexit ... swiftly followed by the dismantling of laws that protect worker and human rights not to mention lower taxation and slashed social services spending ... we're going the same way as the US. Little Britain, soon to be Little England .... the next Charge of the Light Brigade!

[Laughing Gravy]

4 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

Did it never cross your mind that if you think that leaving the EU is likely to lead to a very poor outcome for your country then the most unpatriotic thing that you could do is just give up the argument?  What's been done can be undone ... and perhaps a lot quicker than you imagine. For me 'project fear' was the immigration scare stories ... the millions of Turks flooding into the UK, etc ... it was just a good marketing phrase ... nothing more. As for the "proof", you do understand that the UK is still in the EU and will not leave until 2019? But even now companies are in the process of moving either their whole or parts of their business away from the UK. The technology hub in London is no where near as attractive to young tech entrepreneurs as it was ... and when Far Eastern companies are setting up an EU HQ, you can be sure it will not be in the UK. And the Scotland second referendum is lurking in the near future. The break up of the UK was predicted ... but not in 9 months!

 

 

 

 

 

The UK and the rest of Europe was fine before the EU. You must have insecurity issues. I pity you. I will tell you again. People voted to leave the EU for sovereignty issues. To make their own decisions, You keep telling yourself them lies and maybe some people, maybe will believe you. The unpatriotic thing is giving your identity away and justifying it in a body called the EU.

Project fear was that the UK would have a financial meltdown the day after the UK voted to leave. t didn't happen, so admit it.

[pitrevie]

5 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

The UK and the rest of Europe was fine before the EU. You must have insecurity issues. I pity you. I will tell you again. People voted to leave the EU for sovereignty issues. To make their own decisions, You keep telling yourself them lies and maybe some people, maybe will believe you. The unpatriotic thing is giving your identity away and justifying it in a body called the EU.

Project fear was that the UK would have a financial meltdown the day after the UK voted to leave. t didn't happen, so admit it.

"The UK and the rest of Europe was fine before the EU." could I ask when you arrived on planet earth. For half of the 20th century the rest of Europe was anything but fine. Then in 1973 when the UK joined the EEC is that what you call "fine"? I recall the situation in UK as anything but fine probably dire would be nearer the mark.

As for the predictions of a financial meltdown I think that has been exhausted just like the predictions of total financial collapse. All we have is Brexiters who claim that Remainers predicted a total meltdown etc and some right wing religious kook in the USA who has been making that prediction about everything based on some book of fairy tales he believes in.

[evadgib]

3 hours ago, baboon said:

A general election has just been called. June 8th...

Expected for some time.

 

Bring it on! :)

[teddog]

7 hours ago, sandyf said:

So you think the UK is going to get a trade deal with India without any concession on visas. Can always live in hope, seems to be the order of the day.

1946  Winston Churchill described Indians (all of them) as underhand ,born liars and thieves.. never to be trusted, looking at the news today I tend to agree with his statement

[billd766]

3 hours ago, pitrevie said:

"The UK and the rest of Europe was fine before the EU." could I ask when you arrived on planet earth. For half of the 20th century the rest of Europe was anything but fine. Then in 1973 when the UK joined the EEC is that what you call "fine"? I recall the situation in UK as anything but fine probably dire would be nearer the mark.

As for the predictions of a financial meltdown I think that has been exhausted just like the predictions of total financial collapse. All we have is Brexiters who claim that Remainers predicted a total meltdown etc and some right wing religious kook in the USA who has been making that prediction about everything based on some book of fairy tales he believes in.

 

Well I arrived in 1944 and apart from the odd world war I thought that the UK was doing pretty much OK. I DID vote to join the EEC but however what I voted to join was NOT what the UK ended up with so when the referendum came along I voted to leave.

 

If there is a general election I shall vote as I did in the last one which was for UKIP. I know that they won't win in Taunton Deane where I am registered  but that doesn't matter to me.

 

My vote will keep the LibDems, Greens and no hopers like Labour out and deprive the Tories of my vote.

[AlexRich]

3 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

The UK and the rest of Europe was fine before the EU. You must have insecurity issues. I pity you. I will tell you again. People voted to leave the EU for sovereignty issues. To make their own decisions, You keep telling yourself them lies and maybe some people, maybe will believe you. The unpatriotic thing is giving your identity away and justifying it in a body called the EU.

Project fear was that the UK would have a financial meltdown the day after the UK voted to leave. t didn't happen, so admit it.

 

Project fear was a marketing gimmick used to get a bunch of immigration fearing numpties to vote to leave the EU ... that's all it is and ever was.

 

As for sovereignty ... there just wasn't enough votes for that issue to get over the line ... that's why the immigration scare stories were used to frighten the dimwitted. 

 

I never believed that the UK would go into meltdown, just that it would not do as well as it was doing operating within the EU. But significantly so. I was happy living in a country that set it's own tax rates, ran it's own currency, set it's own budget, ran it's own military ... and had controlled non-EU immigration ... you and your ilk exaggerate beyond belief the influence of the EU ... for your own purposes of course.

[funandsuninbangkok]

UK will emerge stronger than ever , rid of the EU milestone. May will win by a landslide, lower taxes, junk the national health, and restore ties with its traditional allies, the US, Canada, Australia, and NZ in a Christian, Western super union to confront the evil forces of communist multicultural fools. 

[SheungWan]

2 hours ago, funandsuninbangkok said:

UK will emerge stronger than ever , rid of the EU milestone. May will win by a landslide, lower taxes, junk the national health, and restore ties with its traditional allies, the US, Canada, Australia, and NZ in a Christian, Western super union to confront the evil forces of communist multicultural fools. 

Hello! Its the tin foil hat team in town to join the party.

[SheungWan]

4 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

Well I arrived in 1944 and apart from the odd world war I thought that the UK was doing pretty much OK. I DID vote to join the EEC but however what I voted to join was NOT what the UK ended up with so when the referendum came along I voted to leave.

 

If there is a general election I shall vote as I did in the last one which was for UKIP. I know that they won't win in Taunton Deane where I am registered  but that doesn't matter to me.

 

My vote will keep the LibDems, Greens and no hopers like Labour out and deprive the Tories of my vote.

Well I think it is excellent that you are refusing to join the no-hopers. UKIP currently projected according to my detailed research to get one more MP than the Monster Raving Loony Party. Maybe.

[onthesoi]

2 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

UKIP currently projected according to my detailed research to get one more MP than the Monster Raving Loony Party. Maybe.

 

If they are lucky ...they only had one MP and he resigned last month.  Even making him party leader wasn't enough to keep him.

[SheungWan]

10 hours ago, Khun Han said:

Wow! Looks like PM May wasn't confident about parliamentary support on brexit.

No she wasn't, but since the risk was in the terms of both the exit and subsequent agreement the prior assumption was that the government would call an election if challenged on the terms negotiated. The projected terms maybe were unfolding as a weak hand. Whatever. The call looks like a weak rationale other than the fact that the opposition looks even weaker when considering its options. Not exactly edifying.

[pitrevie]

6 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

Well I arrived in 1944 and apart from the odd world war I thought that the UK was doing pretty much OK. I DID vote to join the EEC but however what I voted to join was NOT what the UK ended up with so when the referendum came along I voted to leave.

 

If there is a general election I shall vote as I did in the last one which was for UKIP. I know that they won't win in Taunton Deane where I am registered  but that doesn't matter to me.

 

My vote will keep the LibDems, Greens and no hopers like Labour out and deprive the Tories of my vote.

I think that you need to go back and read what the situation was in 1973 and how the UK was doing compared to the rest of Europe and the EEC at that time.

[sandyf]

17 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

In view of this comment ("only a battle, not the end of the war"), what do you think is going to be the result at the end of brexit negotiations?

Whatever happens in the next few years, it will not be the end of it. A large percentage of the younger generation voted to remain so what is to stop a future government taking the UK back into the EU.

What do I think, not that it means a great deal. I think that we have run out of braking distance and the crash will happen, there may be a few last minutes swerves to lessen the impact. Once the negotiations are over and the transitional period has come to an end, it will become a lot more apparent how things have deteriorated. In about 15 years the campaigns to rejoin should be well underway, people seem to like being able to reverse parliamentary decisions.

Fortunately I will have found greener pastures by then.

[pitrevie]

2 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Whatever happens in the next few years, it will not be the end of it. A large percentage of the younger generation voted to remain so what is to stop a future government taking the UK back into the EU.

What do I think, not that it means a great deal. I think that we have run out of braking distance and the crash will happen, there may be a few last minutes swerves to lessen the impact. Once the negotiations are over and the transitional period has come to an end, it will become a lot more apparent how things have deteriorated. In about 15 years the campaigns to rejoin should be well underway, people seem to like being able to reverse parliamentary decisions.

Fortunately I will have found greener pastures by then.

None other than David Davis, Brexit Secretary agrees with you, he said nations 'not democracies' if they can't change their mind. 

[sandyf]

13 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

The UK and the rest of Europe was fine before the EU.

Anyone who thinks the UK was fine before 1973 should think again.

 

1966
On 20th July, 1966, the Prime Minister decided, for no economic reason as far as I can tell, to impose a £50 limit on the travel allowance for British citizens abroad. That £50 was computed thus. The total number of British citizens travelling outside the sterling area was divided into the aggregation of expenditure and it was decided that the average expenditure per person was a trifle less than £50. The Chancellor therefore decided on a £50 limit.
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1967/jun/19/overseas-travel-allowance

1967
Wilson defends 'pound in your pocket'
The Prime Minister, Harold Wilson, has defended his decision to devalue the pound saying it will tackle the "root cause" of Britain's economic problems.
The government announced last night it was lowering the exchange rate so the pound is now worth $2.40, down from $2.80, a cut of just over 14%.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/19/newsid_3208000/3208396.stm

1968
The Black Dwarf was launched in June 1968 under Tariq Ali's editorship, with several other IMG members on its editorial board. Its creative and pluralist nature attracted a number of new activists to the group: John Lennon was friendly to the organisation.
While IMG members largely remained in the Labour party, including Charlie van Gelderen, International marked a break from 'deep entrism'. Its first issue claimed that "The Week was brought out in the expectation that a mass left would arise in the Labour party once labour was in power. [Its] main function was that of an organiser and co-ordinator [...] but this will be a by-product of the main function of International: the creation of a firm marxist core in the labour movement." Its campaigning was focussed on broader initiatives such as the Vietnam Solidarity Campaign and Russell Tribunal, in which Ernie Tate was prominent and in which the RSL and Socialist Labour League did not work, the Institute for Workers' Control and the Revolutionary Socialist Students Front, in which Peter Gowan and Murray Smith were active. The agitational work of The Week was carried on in the The Black Dwarf and in Socialist Woman, launched in 1969. The Group gained some public prominence when Tariq Ali, who had joined in April 1968, was widely publicised in the media as a leader of protests against the Vietnam War.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Marxist_Group

1969
Troubles in Ireland escalate
During the riots, on 13 August, Taoiseach Jack Lynch made a television address. He condemned the RUC and said that the Irish Government "can no longer stand by and see innocent people injured and perhaps worse". He called for a United Nations peacekeeping force to be deployed and said that Irish Army field hospitals were being set up at the border in County Donegal near Derry. Lynch added that Irish re-unification would be the only permanent solution. Some interpreted the speech as a threat of military intervention. After the riots, Lynch ordered the Irish Army to plan for a possible humanitarian intervention in Northern Ireland. The plan, Exercise Armageddon, was rejected and remained classified for thirty years.
On 14–15 August, British troops were deployed in Derry and Belfast to restore order,[80] but did not try to enter the Bogside, bringing a temporary end to the riots. Eight people had been shot dead, more than 750 had been injured (including 133 who suffered gunshot wounds) and more than 400 homes and businesses had been destroyed (83% Catholic-owned). 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles

1970
The docks strike of 1970 was a major industrial action by dockers in the United Kingdom that raised fears of food shortages and led to a proclamation of a state of emergency by Queen Elizabeth II.
Dockers struck for a pay rise of £11 per week (£109 at 2003 prices) on 15 July 1970 and around 47,000 dockers were involved nationally. The strike seriously cut imports and exports and cost the British economy between £50 and £100 million (£495 and 990 million at 2003 prices). The British Army were stood by to protect food supplies but most dockers agreed to handle perishable goods and the strike was largely peaceful. The dockers lost £4 million (£40 million at 2003 prices) in wages.
A court of inquiry was convened under Lord Pearson and proposed an average 7% increase in pay. Though this was at first rejected by the dockers, it was ultimately accepted on 30 July.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docks_strike_of_1970

19 May – The government made a £20 million loan available to help save the financially troubled luxury car and aircraft engine manufacturer Rolls Royce.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970_in_the_United_Kingdom

1971
The 1971 United Kingdom postal workers strike was a strike in the United Kingdom staged by postal workers between January and March 1971.
The strike was Britain's first national postal strike and began after postal workers demanded a pay rise of 15-20% then walked out after Post Office managers made a lower offer. The strike began on 20 January and lasted for seven weeks, finally ending with an agreement on Thursday 4 March. After voting over the weekend, the strikers returned to work on Monday 8 March 1971. The strike overlapped with the introduction of decimal currency in the U.K.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_United_Kingdom_postal_workers_strike

4 February – Rolls-Royce went bankrupt and was nationalised.
1 March – An estimated 120,000 to 250,000 "kill the bill" protesters went on strike against the 1971 Industrial Relations Act in London.
19 April – Unemployment reached a post-Second World War high of nearly 815,000.
24 June – The EEC agreed terms for Britain's proposed membership and it was hoped that the nation will join the EEC next year.
28 October: The House of Commons voted in favour of joining the EEC by a vote of 356-244.
Undated:Inflation stood at a 30-year high of 8.6%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_in_the_United_Kingdom

1972
9 January – The National Union of Mineworkers held a strike ballot in which 58.8% voted in favour. Coal miners begin a strike which lasts for seven weeks, including picketing of Saltley coke depot in Birmingham.
20 January – Unemployment exceeded 1,000,000 for the first time since the 1930s-almost double the 582,000 who were unemployed when Edward Heath's Conservative government came to power less than two years ago.
9 February – A State of emergency was declared as a result of the miners' strike.
23 June – The Chancellor of the Exchequer Anthony Barber announced a decision to float the Pound.
28 July – A strike by thousands of dockers led to the government announcing a state of emergency on 4 August.
6 November – The government introduced price and pay freezes to counter inflation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_in_the_United_Kingdom

[nontabury]

2 hours ago, pitrevie said:

I think that you need to go back and read what the situation was in 1973 and how the UK was doing compared to the rest of Europe and the EEC at that time.

Well I know what I,and the vast majority of the electorate voted for in 1973. It certainly was not the so called E.U.   It's unfortunate that the arrogant politicians and Brussel Beurocrats din't leave the EEC as it was. If they had then Brexit would never have happened.

[pitrevie]

5 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Well I know what I,and the vast majority of the electorate voted for in 1973. It certainly was not the so called E.U.   It's unfortunate that the arrogant politicians and Brussel Beurocrats din't leave the EEC as it was. If they had then Brexit would never have happened.

Really then you obviously didn't read what the founders of the EU always intended. Something I have posted here several times.  Did you not expect the EEC to evolve in any way? However now you will be able to return to those happy days when the UK was not in the EU, no more blaming corrupt undemocratic Brussels bureaucrats. However as someone so concerned with all those changes on which you were not consulted I am sure you will want the final agreement to be put to the British people. Somehow I think not. 

[mommysboy]

I've just been listening to BBC Podcast - World Business Report.  They interviewed French people at a market, who came up with the same list of complaints.  In fact it was eerily similar.  The principle complaint was higher prices, and lower income.  One commented on the growing underclass and erosion of the middle-class.

 

You could deduce the problem is the EU, but I rather think it is wealth inequality in the main, exacerbated by growing automation/digitalisation.  Youngsters have a better feel for it imo.  Older people have lived under a system they cherished and it actually worked for a while, but it is clearly now defunct, whether it be handled by socialists or capitalists.

 

You may feel leaving the EU will solve this, or indeed that Scotland leaving UK, or Shetlands leaving Scotland might solve these problems, but they won't.  The only partial solution comes by educating people to expect less, and then people will understand the need for a government with strong social welfare plans.  This will be a hard sell to English people who basically are very right wing, but ironically rather poor already.

[teddog]

1 minute ago, mommysboy said:

I

You may feel leaving the EU will solve this, or indeed that Scotland leaving UK, or Shetlands leaving Scotland might solve these problems, but they won't.  The only partial solution comes by educating people to expect less, and then people will understand the need for a government with strong social welfare plans.  This will be a hard sell to English people who basically are very right wing, but ironically rather poor already.

You would do well going to that french market and asking people about THEIR welfare system,it far outstrips anything the UK has  ,and the OAP system,and while about it ask them why the French only pay lip service to the EU laws etc

[mommysboy]

5 minutes ago, teddog said:

You would do well going to that french market and asking people about THEIR welfare system,it far outstrips anything the UK has  ,and the OAP system,and while about it ask them why the French only pay lip service to the EU laws etc

I don't understand the point you are making.

 

The comments they made were plain, some were speaking in English. And yet they weren't satisfied.  Interestingly though, it wasn't focused around EU.  Like I said expectations plays a part.  Somehow the common  man is feeling the pinch.  And it is a real pain.  But it has nothing to do with being part of the EU or not.

 

Rather I think it is the erosion of communual values.  Everything that gives us shared identity has been eroded. 

[pitrevie]

1 minute ago, mommysboy said:

I don't understand the point you are making.

 

The comments they made were plain, some were speaking in English. And yet they weren't satisfied.  Interestingly though, it wasn't focused around EU.  Like I said expectations plays a part.  Somehow the common  man is feeling the pinch.  And it is a real pain.  But it has nothing to do with being part of the EU or not.

 

Rather I think it is the erosion of communual values.  Everything that gives us shared identity has been eroded. 

I agree the EU like immigration have become the whipping boys but it will be interesting to see once we are out of the EU what will replace them. Somehow all those global pressures and lack of accountability will all be solved once we take back control. No doubt our power distribution system, our railways our motor industry, utility companies will all revert back to being British. The fact is as Macmillan once observed we have sold off the family silver and it makes you wonder is there anything the British will not sell. Even a German friend of mine was amazed that we allowed Rolls Royce cars to be sold off. What was the saying when we sold Gas, Syd was going to own it but apparently that has changed to Francois or Manuel or Fritz or even Mr Wong.

[teddog]

10 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

I don't understand the point you are making.

 

The comments they made were plain, some were speaking in English. And yet they weren't satisfied.  Interestingly though, it wasn't focused around EU.  Like I said expectations plays a part.  Somehow the common  man is feeling the pinch.  And it is a real pain.  But it has nothing to do with being part of the EU or not.

 

Rather I think it is the erosion of communual values.  Everything that gives us shared identity has been eroded. 

 

Point I am making?  A french pensioner re-locating to UK would feel as thought its Christmas day,ever day..UK pensioner re- locating to France a pauper overnight.....but yes only relative to ones own circumstances /country,but the french are well provided for by welfare system,UK not so