Grouse Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 https://freedocumentaries.org/documentary/bbc-the-trap-what-happened-to-our-dream-of-freedom-f-k-you-buddy-episode-1 This is series of 3 documentaries which are strongly recommended for contributors here. It actually goes a long way toward explaining the rifts, dissatisfaction and general unhappiness of a significant proportion of UK and USA population It's all down to game theory and the abandonment of altruism and society generally. Starting with Thatcher and go through the Blair: Brown era, it's quite an eye opener. Market economics, inequality, and the collapse of civil society! Pass the Prozac! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitrevie Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 24 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said: I am well aware of the history of the now called EU. Clarke the Europhile, well you lost any credibility using him. you have your believes and I have mine. Why you believe that leaving the EU is a very bad move because we are embarking on an unknown future. You make your own futures. It isn't like we are putting a 'Berlin wall" around the UK to stop them pesky European countries coming or trading. It is a shame you don't have the confidence, self belief and in the people of the UK and the youth to ensure the UK will prosper People talk like the EU is some 'holy grail' it isn't. Countries outside of it are doing fine, as the UK will. Yes we will see as the results unfold but ever since the referendum result, many remainers seem to lack some backbone and pride in their country. What a shame You often criticize Remainers but then you include a cheap jibe against a politician who by any standards has had a distinguished career and I have never supported his party. You claimed that we were ok before joining that EEC when that is demonstrably false. In fact we were then in the position we are going to be in now leaving the EU being able to trade with all those countries that being a member of the EU has not allowed us to trade with. (I just wish someone would name any of them.) I think its the Brexiters who have lacked confidence that somehow working by the same rules we could somehow never compete with our European rivals, it was all because it was so undemocratic, dictatorial etc and that somehow when we disappear down the rabbit hole we are going to emerge into that Alice in Wonderland World just like the one we left in 1973 when we were so successful. However it does show that we fail to learn from experience that you can even state "it was (OK) before the EU". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Gravy Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 6 minutes ago, pitrevie said: You often criticize Remainers but then you include a cheap jibe against a politician who by any standards has had a distinguished career and I have never supported his party. You claimed that we were ok before joining that EEC when that is demonstrably false. In fact we were then in the position we are going to be in now leaving the EU being able to trade with all those countries that being a member of the EU has not allowed us to trade with. (I just wish someone would name any of them.) I think its the Brexiters who have lacked confidence that somehow working by the same rules we could somehow never compete with our European rivals, it was all because it was so undemocratic, dictatorial etc and that somehow when we disappear down the rabbit hole we are going to emerge into that Alice in Wonderland World just like the one we left in 1973 when we were so successful. However it does show that we fail to learn from experience that you can even state "it was (OK) before the EU". Life was OK. In fact much better than other countries in the EU. In the 1980 I lived in a few, so I am talking from experience. Brexiteers don't lack any confidence. We don't need to rely on other nations to tell us what we can produce and how to do business. We can all be friends but we don't have to have all the same laws or currency. We are all individual nations with personal identities.You seem to paint a picture that life outside the EU for the UK will be this. It won't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockingrobin Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 4 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said: Life was OK. In fact much better than other countries in the EU. In the 1980 I lived in a few, so I am talking from experience. Brexiteers don't lack any confidence. We don't need to rely on other nations to tell us what we can produce and how to do business. We can all be friends but we don't have to have all the same laws or currency. We are all individual nations with personal identities.You seem to paint a picture that life outside the EU for the UK will be this. It won't. Sorry I dont undderstand, are you saying life in the UK in the 1980s better than other EU countries in the 80s 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitrevie Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 2 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said: Life was OK. In fact much better than other countries in the EU. In the 1980 I lived in a few, so I am talking from experience. Brexiteers don't lack any confidence. We don't need to rely on other nations to tell us what we can produce and how to do business. We can all be friends but we don't have to have all the same laws or currency. We are all individual nations with personal identities.You seem to paint a picture that life outside the EU for the UK will be this. It won't. We were an individual nation inside the EU. All laws but all laws no exceptions had to be approved by our sovereign parliament before they got on the statue book. I too lived in the UK prior to joining the EEC and you don't have to tell me the mess we were in and why we were known as the sick man of Europe. However once again you ascribe the sort of scenario to remainers that is a gross exaggeration, you know like others supposedly predicting "total financial collapse etc". I don't know of any remainer who claims such nonsense not even Osborne is his wildest statements, but Clarke's reference to disappearing down a rabbit hole expecting to reappear in some wonderland is nearer the mark. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Gravy Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 16 minutes ago, rockingrobin said: Sorry I dont undderstand, are you saying life in the UK in the 1980s better than other EU countries in the 80s As I said I lived in a few of other European countries in the 1980s and yes life was better in the UK in my opinion before all the others joined, making it what it has morphed into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitrevie Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 2 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said: As I said I lived in a few of other European countries in the 1980s and yes life was better in the UK in my opinion before all the others joined, making it what it has morphed into. I was living in Germany at the time and I had just left UK where the UK was undergoing power cuts. Germany was paradise by comparison and the next several years in Germany were the happiest days of my life. I return often and they are still far and away well ahead of the UK in so many respects. Much more pleasant place to live and I would include several other European countries in that having experienced them also. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Gravy Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 20 minutes ago, pitrevie said: However once again you ascribe the sort of scenario to remainers that is a gross exaggeration, you know like others supposedly predicting "total financial collapse etc There are loads more and no exaggeration just your inability to admit that there was scare mongering. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jan/25/brexit-would-trigger-economic-financial-shock-for-uk World markets have slumped in Europe, America and Asia, as economists predict that Brexit vote will push UK into recession http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-38980573 Andrew RT Davies told BBC Wales that Remain supporters got it wrong when "prophesying" an "economic collapse" due to Brexit and should now say sorry. https://www.rt.com/uk/372822-bank-england-misjudged-brexit/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertthebruce Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 7 minutes ago, pitrevie said: I was living in Germany at the time and I had just left UK where the UK was undergoing power cuts. Germany was paradise by comparison and the next several years in Germany were the happiest days of my life. I return often and they are still far and away well ahead of the UK in so many respects. Much more pleasant place to live and I would include several other European countries in that having experienced them also. Totally agree , I have lived in Germany too, very impressed, ... and agree reed much more advanced than many other European Countries.. I then moved to France, that was like going back 50 years, totally out of touch with Technology and Service...., everything closed or on strike...., supermarkets was a nightmare too, no choice, and not clean... gets to you after a while.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Laughing Gravy Posted March 17, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted March 17, 2017 3 minutes ago, robertthebruce said: Totally agree , I have lived in Germany too, very impressed, ... and agree reed much more advanced than many other European Countries.. I then moved to France, that was like going back 50 years, totally out of touch with Technology and Service...., everything closed or on strike...., supermarkets was a nightmare too, no choice, and not clean... gets to you after a while.... I agree with West Germany. Now East Germany was different. Now put Spain and Greece, along with France and the UK was a better place to live in. My whole point. As for the other EU countries in the EU now I suspect that the majority were not that great, such as Poland, the Balkans (definitely wasn't) and Hungary etc. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khun Han Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said: I agree with West Germany. Now East Germany was different. Now put Spain and Greece, along with France and the UK was a better place to live in. My whole point. As for the other EU countries in the EU now I suspect that the majority were not that great, such as Poland, the Balkans (definitely wasn't) and Hungary etc. As Germany (only West Germany originally) has had a charmed life financially from reconstrucion after the second world war, it's no surprise that they've done better than everybody else in Europe economically. Even reunification was only a relatively short-term blip, which eventually added to their economic strength, particularly with the advent of the Euro. Edited March 17, 2017 by Khun Han 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khun Han Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 2 hours ago, Naam said: 15 hours ago, Khun Han said: What beef? They've already committed, no strings (or beef) attached. here's the full beef Quote Japanese carmaker Toyota (7203.T) said it plans to invest 240 million pounds to upgrade its car plant in central England for future output, but retaining tariff-free access to EU markets after Brexit remained crucial. Toyota said last week that it could delay a decision on whether to build its next-generation Auris model in Britain to see the outcome of Brexit negotiations. But van Zyl warned that it was important for the government to secure unfettered access to Europe for British-built car exports as part of a Brexit deal. http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-toyota-idUKKBN16N16T No, here's the full beef straight from the horse's mouth: http://media.toyota.co.uk/2017/03/toyota-announces-new-investment-uk-car-plant/ As you can see, Toyota's investment starts this year, and is not connected to any brexit negotiation outcomes. How could it be? The money will have been invested by then. Toyota has understandable concerns about it's future markets. But it hasn't stopped them from making a large long term investment in the UK, has it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockingrobin Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 4 minutes ago, Khun Han said: No, here's the full beef straight from the horse's mouth: http://media.toyota.co.uk/2017/03/toyota-announces-new-investment-uk-car-plant/ As you can see, Toyota's investment starts this year, and is not connected to any brexit negotiation outcomes. How could it be? The money will have been invested by then. Toyota has understandable concerns about it's future markets. But it hasn't stopped them from making a large long term investment in the UK, has it? From your link “We are very focused on securing the global competitiveness of our European plants. The roll-out of TNGA manufacturing capability is part of this plan. This upgrade of TMUK is a sign of confidence in our employees and suppliers and their focus on superior quality and greater efficiency. We welcome the UK Government funding contribution for this activity.” “Our investment demonstrates that, as a company, we are doing all we can to raise the competitiveness of our Burnaston plant in Derbyshire. Continued tariff-and-barrier free market access between the UK and Europe that is predictable and uncomplicated will be vital for future success.” 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khun Han Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Laughing Gravy said: 1 hour ago, Grouse said: Maybe those voting remain were more content with status quo ante. Probably with more disposable income. However, spending is now slowing dramatically. I did notice Cable putting on 1 cent yesterday following USA interest hike of just 0.25 %. Maybe the market's expected more? Now instead of concentrating on what we remainers say, why not tell us about the glorious sunny uplands of post EU England? That was an article from the Times, not what I said. Post EU United Kingdom you mean. I have mentioned before what I believe life outside the EU will be. In a nutshell, pretty much the same without the EU dictating what and when we do it. I only see the 'superior' whisky drinker's posts when they're quoted nowadays, but hasn't he been promising a Powerpoint presentation on EU positives for the last month? Did it happen? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khun Han Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 4 minutes ago, rockingrobin said: From your link “We are very focused on securing the global competitiveness of our European plants. The roll-out of TNGA manufacturing capability is part of this plan. This upgrade of TMUK is a sign of confidence in our employees and suppliers and their focus on superior quality and greater efficiency. We welcome the UK Government funding contribution for this activity.” “Our investment demonstrates that, as a company, we are doing all we can to raise the competitiveness of our Burnaston plant in Derbyshire. Continued tariff-and-barrier free market access between the UK and Europe that is predictable and uncomplicated will be vital for future success.” Sorry, Robin, your post adds nothing to what has already been discussed. There is no mention by Toyota that the investment is tied into European market access. And, as I said, how could it be? The money will have been invested by the time we know what that access will be. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khun Han Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 52 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said: There are loads more and no exaggeration just your inability to admit that there was scare mongering. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jan/25/brexit-would-trigger-economic-financial-shock-for-uk World markets have slumped in Europe, America and Asia, as economists predict that Brexit vote will push UK into recession http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-38980573 Andrew RT Davies told BBC Wales that Remain supporters got it wrong when "prophesying" an "economic collapse" due to Brexit and should now say sorry. https://www.rt.com/uk/372822-bank-england-misjudged-brexit/ You're wasting your time Gravy. Posters like him will be back next week claiming that 'nobody said things would get much worse straight after the referendum. Brexit hasn't happened yet. Just you wait and see.....blah.....blah.....blah.....' 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SheungWan Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 5 minutes ago, Khun Han said: You're wasting your time Gravy. Posters like him will be back next week claiming that 'nobody said things would get much worse straight after the referendum. Brexit hasn't happened yet. Just you wait and see.....blah.....blah.....blah.....' Brexit job loss threat: http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/18/hsbc-ubs-to-shift-1000-jobs-each-from-uk-in-brexit-blow-to-london.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockingrobin Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 20 minutes ago, Khun Han said: Sorry, Robin, your post adds nothing to what has already been discussed. There is no mention by Toyota that the investment is tied into European market access. And, as I said, how could it be? The money will have been invested by the time we know what that access will be. The tariff free remark obviously refers to the production of the new Auris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitrevie Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Laughing Gravy said: There are loads more and no exaggeration just your inability to admit that there was scare mongering. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jan/25/brexit-would-trigger-economic-financial-shock-for-uk World markets have slumped in Europe, America and Asia, as economists predict that Brexit vote will push UK into recession http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-38980573 Andrew RT Davies told BBC Wales that Remain supporters got it wrong when "prophesying" an "economic collapse" due to Brexit and should now say sorry. https://www.rt.com/uk/372822-bank-england-misjudged-brexit/ Once again you haven't produced one link that stated anyone said there would be a total financial collapse, yes people on both sides exaggerated no doubt about that but give me a link that has someone on the REMAIN side saying that, not someone on the Brexit side saying they said that. The Bank of England certainly didn't predict a total economic collapse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitrevie Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 24 minutes ago, Khun Han said: You're wasting your time Gravy. Posters like him will be back next week claiming that 'nobody said things would get much worse straight after the referendum. Brexit hasn't happened yet. Just you wait and see.....blah.....blah.....blah.....' Well I did give you a chance to find anyone who stated that there would be a total economic collapse following a Brexit vote and guess what, despite days of searching for such a statement you came up with nothing to support that exaggeration. Try facts instead of blah blah. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khun Han Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 39 minutes ago, rockingrobin said: The tariff free remark obviously refers to the production of the new Auris As the investment is being made at the plant which makes the Auris, it's safe to say that the new investment in Auris production is not tied into any brexit outcomes 2 - 3 years down the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khun Han Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 55 minutes ago, SheungWan said: Brexit job loss threat: http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/18/hsbc-ubs-to-shift-1000-jobs-each-from-uk-in-brexit-blow-to-london.html It's a 'maybe' at the moment. One wouldn't expect multis to do anything other than make provision for all eventualities. Going public with them is a warning shot across the government's bows. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post dick dasterdly Posted March 17, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted March 17, 2017 5 minutes ago, Khun Han said: It's a 'maybe' at the moment. One wouldn't expect multis to do anything other than make provision for all eventualities. Going public with them is a warning shot across the government's bows. I'm still getting over the fact that somebody who supported remain is now the PM in charge of leaving the EU! Only proves that politicians cannot be trusted and are are happy to change their 'mantra' as soon as it becomes beneficial to themselves to do so...... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitrevie Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 16 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said: I'm still getting over the fact that somebody who supported remain is now the PM in charge of leaving the EU! Only proves that politicians cannot be trusted and are are happy to change their 'mantra' as soon as it becomes beneficial to themselves to do so...... Theresa May privately warned that companies would leave the UK if the country voted for Brexit during a secret audience with investment bankers a month before the EU referendum. Speaking at the bank in London on 26 May, the then home secretary appeared to go further than her public remarks to explain more clearly the economic benefits of staying in the EU. She told staff it was time the UK took a lead in Europe, and that she hoped voters would look to the future rather than the past. In an hour-long session before the City bankers, she also worried about the effect of Brexit on the British economy. “I think the economic arguments are clear,” she said. “I think being part of a 500-million trading bloc is significant for us. I think, as I was saying to you a little earlier, that one of the issues is that a lot of people will invest here in the UK because it is the UK in Europe. However it isn't difficult to discover much the same from Boris, but they had one thing in common they both saw their main chance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockingrobin Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 48 minutes ago, Khun Han said: As the investment is being made at the plant which makes the Auris, it's safe to say that the new investment in Auris production is not tied into any brexit outcomes 2 - 3 years down the line. http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/03/09/business/corporate-business/toyota-may-delay-u-k-investment-decision-brexit-terms-clear/ To put the £250m into context Toyota is investing 10 billion $ in the US Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naam Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 2 hours ago, Khun Han said: As Germany (only West Germany originally) has had a charmed life financially from reconstrucion after the second world war, it's no surprise that they've done better than everybody else in Europe economically. Even reunification was only a relatively short-term blip, which eventually added to their economic strength, particularly with the advent of the Euro. when Jesus read these lines he turned away and cried bitterly 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naam Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 2 hours ago, Khun Han said: As Germany (only West Germany originally) has had a charmed life financially from reconstrucion after the second world war, it's no surprise that they've done better than everybody else in Europe economically. Even reunification was only a relatively short-term blip, which eventually added to their economic strength, particularly with the advent of the Euro. this short term blip is going on since 27 years and there are still a couple of decades ahead during which the former East Germany will be an economical drag on the "West". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nontabury Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 7 minutes ago, Naam said: when Jesus read these lines he turned away and cried bitterly And throughout these years,what % of German GDP was spent on the military,and what % of the U.K's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khun Han Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 21 minutes ago, rockingrobin said: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/03/09/business/corporate-business/toyota-may-delay-u-k-investment-decision-brexit-terms-clear/ To put the £250m into context Toyota is investing 10 billion $ in the US I don't care what Toyota is investing elsewhere. They are making a very large new investment in the UK, and that's good enough for me. Christ!!! Talk about glass half-full! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khun Han Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 (edited) 16 minutes ago, nontabury said: And throughout these years,what % of German GDP was spent on the military,and what % of the U.K's. And after WW2, how much foreign aid and assistance was given to Germany to rebuild, and how much was given to the UK? Edited March 17, 2017 by Khun Han 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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