3 hours ago, sandyf said:

The government has grabbed this opportunity with both hands to take sole control of peoples rights and I think that the implications of that have yet to sink in.

 

As opposed to what?

 

The EU control of peoples rights.

 

At least the control is in the hands of the freely elected government of the UK and not by the diktat of the unelected proletariat of the EU. In the UK the people have the choice of electing a new government every 5 years, but how many times has their been a vote in the UK of the whole of the EU parliament?

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

As opposed to what?

 

The EU control of peoples rights.

 

At least the control is in the hands of the freely elected government of the UK and not by the diktat of the unelected proletariat of the EU. In the UK the people have the choice of electing a new government every 5 years, but how many times has their been a vote in the UK of the whole of the EU parliament?

So when the negotiations on Brexit are complete, and we know what's on offer, it will be okay to have a vote on whether we want it or not? 

4 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

As opposed to what?

 

The EU control of peoples rights.

 

At least the control is in the hands of the freely elected government of the UK and not by the diktat of the unelected proletariat of the EU. In the UK the people have the choice of electing a new government every 5 years, but how many times has their been a vote in the UK of the whole of the EU parliament?

All EU legislation must be voted on by the EU parliament, are we to take it that is an unelected body.

I know the next argument is that they are only doing what they are told, I take it you mean like a UK government whip.

 

The EU introduced legislation that would never have come from a UK government. If the government decided to remove some legislation then all we have to do is wait until another government is prepared to reinstate it, not really the best way forward.

 

The UK was one of the main participants in the creation of the ECHR but TM wants to take the UK out of it, the writing is on the wall.

4 hours ago, sandyf said:

All EU legislation must be voted on by the EU parliament, are we to take it that is an unelected body.

I know the next argument is that they are only doing what they are told, I take it you mean like a UK government whip.

 

The EU introduced legislation that would never have come from a UK government. If the government decided to remove some legislation then all we have to do is wait until another government is prepared to reinstate it, not really the best way forward.

 

The UK was one of the main participants in the creation of the ECHR but TM wants to take the UK out of it, the writing is on the wall.

 

But the EU parliament can vote on something that infringes ANY EU country and that country must comply with the ruling whether it is beneficial to that country or not.

If the UK votes on something that only affects the UK that is OK but 27 other countries voting on any other sovereign state is not on to my way of thinking. This however is my opinion and may or may not be shared by others.

9 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

As opposed to what?

 

The EU control of peoples rights.

 

At least the control is in the hands of the freely elected government of the UK and not by the diktat of the unelected proletariat of the EU. In the UK the people have the choice of electing a new government every 5 years, but how many times has their been a vote in the UK of the whole of the EU parliament?

The unelected proletariat! 

11 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

But the EU parliament can vote on something that infringes ANY EU country and that country must comply with the ruling whether it is beneficial to that country or not.

If the UK votes on something that only affects the UK that is OK but 27 other countries voting on any other sovereign state is not on to my way of thinking. This however is my opinion and may or may not be shared by others.

We are all entitled to that opinion Bill, there would be something seriously wrong if people stopped thinking for themselves. I would take an alternative view.

 

But the UK parliament can vote on something that infringes ANY UK citizen and that citizen must comply with the ruling whether it is beneficial to that citizen or not.

 

Surely a consensus among 28 democratic entities is preferable to the dictates of a constantly changing regime that has a track record of bum decisions.

The government recently lost its case over the so called "Bedroom tax". We will never know if the judgement was influenced by the ECJ lurking in the background.

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

We are all entitled to that opinion Bill, there would be something seriously wrong if people stopped thinking for themselves. I would take an alternative view.

 

But the UK parliament can vote on something that infringes ANY UK citizen and that citizen must comply with the ruling whether it is beneficial to that citizen or not.

 

Surely a consensus among 28 democratic entities is preferable to the dictates of a constantly changing regime that has a track record of bum decisions.

The government recently lost its case over the so called "Bedroom tax". We will never know if the judgement was influenced by the ECJ lurking in the background.

 

I agree with you up to a point but I don't want 27 other countries deciding things that are clearly the remit of the UK government.

 

One example is that of Gibraltar where it appears that the Spanish government will have a say on a British Overseas Territory. Something that they have been trying to do since they gave up control 204 years ago when the territory was subsequently ceded to Great Britain "in perpetuity" under the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713.

 

quote "The government recently lost its case over the so called "Bedroom tax". We will never know if the judgement was influenced by the ECJ lurking in the background."

 

I agree with you that we will never know, but why bring the subject up in the first place?

Only about 1% of the people of Gibraltar voted to join with Spain

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/brexit-britain-what-will-it-look-like-nhs-trade-deal-trump-ttip-xenophobia-a7677046.html

 

This is a good piece worthy of reading through. I like the way at the end the writer considers the pros and cons and I agree with the conclusion - a high wage, high investment economy with maximum automation and democratic control.

 

https://g.co/kgs/EiaczX

 

The writer is obviously no fool!

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

I agree with you up to a point but I don't want 27 other countries deciding things that are clearly the remit of the UK government.

 

One example is that of Gibraltar where it appears that the Spanish government will have a say on a British Overseas Territory. Something that they have been trying to do since they gave up control 204 years ago when the territory was subsequently ceded to Great Britain "in perpetuity" under the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713.

 

quote "The government recently lost its case over the so called "Bedroom tax". We will never know if the judgement was influenced by the ECJ lurking in the background."

 

I agree with you that we will never know, but why bring the subject up in the first place?

Only about 1% of the people of Gibraltar voted to join with Spain

The 'Bedroom tax' case highlights how people could hold the government to account knowing they had the ECJ as a final resort. Once the ECJ is out of the equation will anyone be prepared to take on the government, a bit unlikely.

 

Gibraltar is a special case and can hardly be considered the norm. If Spain ever has any say over Gibraltar it will be because the UK government has put its own interests before the rights of the people.

I think we are back where we started.

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/brexit-britain-what-will-it-look-like-nhs-trade-deal-trump-ttip-xenophobia-a7677046.html

 

This is a good piece worthy of reading through. I like the way at the end the writer considers the pros and cons and I agree with the conclusion - a high wage, high investment economy with maximum automation and democratic control.

 

https://g.co/kgs/EiaczX

 

The writer is obviously no fool!

And here's a bit of lateral thinking!

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/04/three-day-weekend-injustices-modern-working-life

 

Its about time labour and capital was rebalanced. We should all benefit from automation and robotics IMHO

 

 

In the Easter message TM has said " our shared interests, our shared ambitions, and above all our shared values can, and must, bring us together.."

 

Scotland voted to stay in the EU

Northern Ireland voted to stay in the EU

Gibraltar voted to stay in the EU

 

Where are these shared interests, shared ambitions and shared values? Wales?

 

Easter 2017: Theresa May's message

 

Foreign Secretary's 2017 Easter message

" the opportunities that stem from our decision to leave the European Union and embrace the world"

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/government-preparing-to-scrap-eu-s-green-energy-targets-after-brexit-a7684771.html

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-leaders-to-strip-britain-of-valued-european-medicine-and-banking-agencies-within-weeks-a7685811.html

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-eu-space-mission-lose-out-contracts-brexit-latest-galileo-satellites-european-space-agency-a7683071.html

Some good news for the brexiteers.

"

The UK will be able to abandon official rules enforced by the European Union, which impose significant tariffs on the trade relationship between Britain and India.

Currently, British businesses exporting to India face tariffs worth 14.8 per cent, while Indian exports into the UK face tariffs worth 8.4 per cent on average."

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/789951/Brexit-trade-deal-India-Commonwealth-worth-2-billion-british-economy-may-tusk-EU

 

Wait a minute

 

"The EU believes it may stand a better chance of striking a free trade deal with India after the UK leaves the union, despite the importance Britain attaches to trade with its old colony."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/23/brexit-could-help-eu-strike-free-trade-deal-india-meps

 

How does the UK get a bilateral trade deal with India if the UK was an impediment to an Indian - EU trade deal?  Visas?

 

"Ministers have tried for years to promote trade between India and the UK. But despite repeated visits by David Cameron, the former prime minister, and his successor Theresa May, bilateral trade has remained largely flat."

"The biggest challenge British negotiators are likely to face, however, is over immigration. India is pushing for greater liberalisation of the UK visa regime for its students and for intra-company transfers."
https://www.ft.com/content/5fef7796-1914-11e7-a53d-df09f373be87

Some posters still can't accept the result of the referendum. It is time to move on, accept the fact the UK is leaving the EU and start supporting your country. Whining and complaining10 months on is becoming boring, grasping onto any little bit of hope (usually from the BBC or Guardian) that the people made a mistake.  Project fear has already proven it was a lie.

On 17/04/2017 at 9:40 AM, sandyf said:

 

"

"The biggest challenge British negotiators are likely to face, however, is over immigration. India is pushing for greater liberalisation of the UK visa regime for its students and for intra-company transfers."
https://www.ft.com/content/5fef7796-1914-11e7-a53d-df09f373be87

Not quite right. As TM points out there are tens of thousands of Indians in the UK on overstay,when detected India will not accept them back,why flood the UK with them?

 

  Same as Goa tens of thousands of them applied through past family for Portugese passports,never to live in Portugal,but the UK

1 hour ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Some posters still can't accept the result of the referendum. It is time to move on, accept the fact the UK is leaving the EU and start supporting your country. Whining and complaining10 months on is becoming boring, grasping onto any little bit of hope (usually from the BBC or Guardian) that the people made a mistake.  Project fear has already proven it was a lie.

Being a cynic - I'm not quite as convinced yet that the UK is leaving the EU as such.

 

There are so many ways that the politicians and big business can come up with a 'deal' that suits their interests, with media spin pretending that its a 'good deal' - even though it ignores the concerns of ordinary people that led to the referendum result.

 

Obviously it wouldn't be presented to the populace this way !

 

The populace will likely be told  a distortion of the truth - e.g. that the UK is paying a reduced amount - for access to the EU market etc./EU immigration from poor countries will be limited to small numbers/the UK has won control over social and work place laws.  Although the latter point is quite likely to be true....

 

Needless to say, I hope I'm wrong in my cynicism.

1 hour ago, teddog said:

Not quite right. As TM points out there are tens of thousands of Indians in the UK on overstay,when detected India will not accept them back,why flood the UK with them?

 

  Same as Goa tens of thousands of them applied through past family for Portugese passports,never to live in Portugal,but the UK

So you think the UK is going to get a trade deal with India without any concession on visas. Can always live in hope, seems to be the order of the day.

9 minutes ago, sandyf said:

So you think the UK is going to get a trade deal with India without any concession on visas. Can always live in hope, seems to be the order of the day.

Nov. 2016 deal offered without trade discussions:

"Theresa May has signalled she will offer "improvements" to the visa system if India offers help to return what could be thousands of overstayers in the UK. The Prime Minister has raised the prospect of a new 'one in, one out' policy as part of a bid to strengthen links with one of its oldest trading partners after Brexit."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/07/india-tells-theresa-may-to-grant-more-student-visas-as-part-of-t/

2 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Some posters still can't accept the result of the referendum. It is time to move on, accept the fact the UK is leaving the EU and start supporting your country. Whining and complaining10 months on is becoming boring, grasping onto any little bit of hope (usually from the BBC or Guardian) that the people made a mistake.  Project fear has already proven it was a lie.

 

Did it never cross your mind that if you think that leaving the EU is likely to lead to a very poor outcome for your country then the most unpatriotic thing that you could do is just give up the argument?  What's been done can be undone ... and perhaps a lot quicker than you imagine. For me 'project fear' was the immigration scare stories ... the millions of Turks flooding into the UK, etc ... it was just a good marketing phrase ... nothing more. As for the "proof", you do understand that the UK is still in the EU and will not leave until 2019? But even now companies are in the process of moving either their whole or parts of their business away from the UK. The technology hub in London is no where near as attractive to young tech entrepreneurs as it was ... and when Far Eastern companies are setting up an EU HQ, you can be sure it will not be in the UK. And the Scotland second referendum is lurking in the near future. The break up of the UK was predicted ... but not in 9 months!

 

 

 

 

 

20 minutes ago, sandyf said:

So you think the UK is going to get a trade deal with India without any concession on visas. Can always live in hope, seems to be the order of the day.

 

I'm beyond anger about this result ... it's becoming a source of continual belly laughs. We'll be swapping Poles for Indians ... something for the Little Englanders to get the flags out for! 

9 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

Nov. 2016 deal offered without trade discussions:

"Theresa May has signalled she will offer "improvements" to the visa system if India offers help to return what could be thousands of overstayers in the UK. The Prime Minister has raised the prospect of a new 'one in, one out' policy as part of a bid to strengthen links with one of its oldest trading partners after Brexit."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/07/india-tells-theresa-may-to-grant-more-student-visas-as-part-of-t/

Yes, that was before Hammond's visit, even after the visit visas were still seen as a potential hurdle.

India does not have a good track record on trade with the west.

2 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Some posters still can't accept the result of the referendum. It is time to move on, accept the fact the UK is leaving the EU and start supporting your country. Whining and complaining10 months on is becoming boring, grasping onto any little bit of hope (usually from the BBC or Guardian) that the people made a mistake.  Project fear has already proven it was a lie.

It is about time some posters accepted that the referendum was only a battle, not the end of the war. This will go on for years to come, after all some have been whining and complaining about Europe since 1973.

54 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Being a cynic - I'm not quite as convinced yet that the UK is leaving the EU as such.

 

There are so many ways that the politicians and big business can come up with a 'deal' that suits their interests, with media spin pretending that its a 'good deal' - even though it ignores the concerns of ordinary people that led to the referendum result.

 

Obviously it wouldn't be presented to the populace this way !

 

The populace will likely be told  a distortion of the truth - e.g. that the UK is paying a reduced amount - for access to the EU market etc./EU immigration from poor countries will be limited to small numbers/the UK has won control over social and work place laws.  Although the latter point is quite likely to be true....

 

Needless to say, I hope I'm wrong in my cynicism.

 

7 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

I'm beyond anger about this result ... it's becoming a source of continual belly laughs. We'll be swapping Poles for Indians ... something for the Little Englanders to get the flags out for! 

Tends to validate my post.  One way or another big business (and the politicians that enjoy/get well paying positions for minimal work in their companies) are going to find a way around one of the main 'leave' objections - immigration from far poorer countries.

Just now, sandyf said:

It is about time some posters accepted that the referendum was only a battle, not the end of the war. This will go on for years to come, after all some have been whining and complaining about Europe since 1973.

In view of this comment ("only a battle, not the end of the war"), what do you think is going to be the result at the end of brexit negotiations?

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

Tends to validate my post.  One way or another big business (and the politicians that enjoy/get well paying positions for minimal work in their companies) are going to find a way around one of the main 'leave' objections - immigration.

 

The problem with immigration was that the UK actually needs to re-balance demographically ... a growing proportion of old people who are living longer need to be supported by a decent size working population. I was happy to see Poles, Estonians and Latvians filling that gap ... they pay taxes and contribute to the economy ... and we are all culturally close. 

 

If you want trade deals with India and China then you have to accept that a great deal more people from these countries will settle in the UK ... otherwise there will be no deal.

 

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

Tends to validate my post.  One way or another big business (and the politicians that enjoy/get well paying positions for minimal work in their companies) are going to find a way around one of the main 'leave' objections - immigration.

 

The difference, of course, is that there will be more Indian businesspeople and students adding to the the country's fabric, and less Europeans reducing the working class and lower middle class wage table. Not to mention the hordes of eastern European gypsies who have invaded more than a few working class towns, bringing with them their 'unique' ways of making a living.

19 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

The problem with immigration was that the UK actually needs to re-balance demographically ... a growing proportion of old people who are living longer need to be supported by a decent size working population. I was happy to see Poles, Estonians and Latvians filling that gap ... they pay taxes and contribute to the economy ... and we are all culturally close. 

 

If you want trade deals with India and China then you have to accept that a great deal more people from these countries will settle in the UK ... otherwise there will be no deal.

 

On the other hand.... mass immigration has resulted in low and stagnated wages for not only those at the bottom end of the scale, but also those in the middle income group.

 

Although (to look on the bright side ), its also resulted in far higher salaries for those at the top....

A general election has just been called. June 8th...

Wow! Looks like PM May wasn't confident about parliamentary support on brexit.